I Updated the wiki page with the remote access info for AGWG and APA
Encourage everyone to read Makoto's document
scribe: we will go back to it today or after TPAC
<scribe> scribe: jeanne
PK: Trying to capture the challenges we find with large, dynamic websites
1) Human testing. We have identified the individual SC that are a problem in this area
scribe: for example, use of color. We think there is a lot more to be identiified on a SC-by-SC basis
2) Large dynamic sites are always under a level of construction
scribe: Conversations with
colleagues that you can think of large, dynamic website as a
city. A web page is a room in a building. You have to make the
the room accessible: Switches, door width, etc. WCAG
conformance applies to a collectio of rooms: a house, or a
small neighborhood.
... but when you scale it up to a city, you see that it is
always under construction.
... you can't really have every facit of the web site
accessible all the time.
3) Third-party content: one can make a WCAG Partial Conformance Claim by excluding the 3rd party conflict, but that (according to WCAG) is a statement of non-conformance.
<Cyborg_> question of clarification - when you mention 3rd parties, are you talking about 3rd party sellers or user reviews?
Peter: MOre broadly at 3rd party. A news aggregator (with photos), seller, or a large site like Facebook where almost anyone on the internet can add to that site. Highly dymanic, highly large. I am speaking of the whole gamut, with individual users as an extreme.
Cyborg: I see them as separate
issues that should be parsed individually. Sellers can be
influenced because they want something from you, especially
those with a contract relationship. THere is capacity for
requiring rules from them, or offering incentives to
them.
... the user problem is a beast and it is hard to do it
well.
<CharlesHall> I think in this case of describing third-party at a general high level is still confined to the question of whether or not third-party content and technologies should be required to conform in order for the page (or flow) to conform.
Peter: Amazon Prime Video
requires that all films accepted must have closed caption
... I'm trying to say these are challenges, and we want to
identify what the challenges are -- all of these have possible
solutions
Cybele: Are there sites that are solutions to individual contributors?
<Zakim> jeanne, you wanted to talk about technical solutions to the user problem
jeanne: We talked at the Silver Design Sprint about giving more points to companies that use AI solutions for user-generated content
Peter: I haven't seen anything that helps identify the intent of the author. AI is in its infancy
CHarles: We are jumping into solutions instead of discussing whether it belongs in the conformance model
Peter: When I look at some of the
proposals, it feels like they are not addressing these
challenges
... they are talking about the number of points to give.
... would it make sense to say that right way to look at an
individual page is all the criteria. THe right way to look at a
large complex site would be different
jeanne: I proposed this a year ago, that a large site would have a set of regulations, and a small site would have different ones. It would be self-selecting. This is inspired by the LEEDS green building model
Peter: There are some good ideas in the LEEDS model.
Jeanne: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1II0MP6l_Xn8GaRhxGSJPIbCto7xTLww3zpSjr6k57g4/edit#heading=h.mv8s7r5ao8a6 <- Exceptions list we identified
Jennison: Where users reply in a
different human language than the dominant language on the
page
... we don't have a way to identify language of parts
Peter: We can do some
idenitification of language, but it doesn't work in small
snippets. It's a great addition to the list.
... some of these challenges are magnified when they are used
in different places/
Cyborg: We are talking about the
range of examples. A way to look at it might be:
... situations where a larger site may be enabling a 3rd party.
How much is the larger site responsible for that
behavior?
... Is there an "undue burden" test? In Canada, a larger
organization would have a harder "undue burden" to prove
... Is there a question of new rules, or is it exempting things
from the rules.
... In the example of the accessibility of cities, it probably
increases the liability of cities. It is very complex
<Peter_Korn> hello?
Peter: It's a big accessibility issue here when people are leaving rental scooters in the street? How does that liability compare to a child leaving a bicycle in the street? When no business is involved, does that change things?
<Peter_Korn> It seems my interface to this WebEx system drops audio after a certain amount of tinme.
<Peter_Korn> This is the third time now...
<Peter_Korn> I will drop & re-enter the WebEx.
Peter: This is another example of how the challenge is there whether or not a business is involved, or a non-profit.
<Cyborg_> there is always concern with 3rd party exemptions that this can encourage 3rd party partitioning
Peter: I gave the example of captions on any Prime Video film distribution. We have seen work to prompt people to do the right things. How do you motivate people who don't care or don't know
<KimD> I'm here but not able to talk
jeanne: In ATAG work 5 years ago, we decided against prompting because prompting doesn't work. We went for standards to include accessibility features, to make them easier to find and easier to use
<KimD> Sorry, I need to leave and have lost audio again.
I encourage everyone to dial in remotely (5:00 PT) Sunday and MOnday nights
scribe: we will be talking about
these issues first
... otherwise, we will take up the discussion in two weeks in
the evening Tuesdya Conformance call
Jeanne: Safe travels to all going to TPAC
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.154 of Date: 2018/09/25 16:35:56 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: Irssi_ISO8601_Log_Text_Format (score 1.00) FAILED: s/...O// Succeeded: s|s/...O//|| Succeeded: s|... O|| Present: Charles Cyborg_ Jennison KimD Peter_Korn jeanne Regrets: Angela Bruce Found Scribe: jeanne Inferring ScribeNick: jeanne Found Date: 13 Sep 2019 People with action items: WARNING: IRC log location not specified! (You can ignore this warning if you do not want the generated minutes to contain a link to the original IRC log.)[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]