Silver Community Group Teleconference

30 Aug 2019


jeanne, janina, Chuck, Lauriat, CharlesHall, pkorn, KimD, Rachael


<jeanne> feasibility test

<jeanne> Interruptions

TPAC travel in Japan for PwD - warning to confirm your requirements

TPAC meetings

<scribe> scribe: Chuck

<Lauriat> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/2019_September_16-20_in_Fukuoka,_Japan#Groups_to_coordinate_with

Janina: Shawn will be the in person person. Will there be wider agwg participation? Alistair or Andrew?
... For Monday & Tuesday. I've an invite for later in the week, related to XR.

<CharlesHall> I will be at TPAC Monday–Wednesday. but traveling locally Thursday–Monday. so I will miss the XR mtg.

Janina: Emergency technologies and emersive web is part of our remit for Silver. If you are in Japan thu or fri you are welcome to join.
... I've 2 conflicts on Mon and Tue.

Shawn: We do expect agwg to join silver.
... Several will make a point to attend, some will filter in and out depending on other meetings.
... APA side sounds interesting.
... I put link in irc for our page, we have a section for groups to coordinate with.
... Has act, agwg, education and outreach.
... With agwg it's generate participation both directions. ACT we'll say "we have groupings, we have user needs...." for these
... ... let's build up the tests to see if the needs have been met.

Janina: Shadi will be there?

Shawn: No idea.

<jeanne> Jeanne found the link to the AGWG TPAC agenda https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Meetings/TPAC_2019#Thursday.2C_19_September_2019

Jeanne: I found the agwg agenda. Thu afternoon will be about silver.
... does that conflict with emersive web?

Janina: Not on thursday with emersive web.

Jeanne: Should we extend invite to Andrew and Alastair for Mon and Tue.

Shawn: We can, but we've already offered invites to everyone for those 2 days.
... We specifically made the days not overlap.
... But reminder would be good idea.

Rachael: Where will call in info be posted?

Jeanne: will be a section on the wiki page.

<jeanne> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/wiki/2019_September_16-20_in_Fukuoka,_Japan

Jeanne: I still need to set that up.
... Remember Japan is a day ahead of us.

Janina: 13 hours from east coast.

1.4.5 followup answer on Canvas and images of text

Jeanne: Do images of text still apply to canvas. Short answer is that ...
... Canvas example in 1.4.5 is no longer relevant.
... Fallback content is fully supported. Not the shadow dom (different meanings).

Shawn: There are caveats to that. I can talk about it with interested parties.

<jeanne> "I believe the canvas example in WCAG 1.4.5 is no longer relevent. As you have aluded, fallback content is fully supported for the canvas element. It’s important to refer to it as fallback content, and not the shadow dom, as they have very different meanings, as far as I know. You can easily provide alternative content for images represented in the canvas, using the fallback content of

<jeanne> the canvas element."

Jeanne: Essential to the user/functional needs?

Shawn: Yes. Context of text is very important. As a for-instance. A video game rendered in canvas. Probably have a bunch of labels.
... It's not enough to dump that stuff. Needs to have same symantec relationship for content to be meaningful.
... It's not just a matter of saying "is there fallback content".

Jeanne: About images of text.

Shawn: With canvas the entire thing is an image. Will contain a bunch of text.
... Another example, google sheets. Sheets rendered visually is in Canvas.
... Very important that fallback content has the structure and relationship that is expressed visually in rows and columns...

Janina: Interesting!

Shawn: We had to make that explicitly correct as far as relationships go to make braille displays render properly.

Janina: 3d canvas?

Shawn: canvas and 3d canvas not terribly different.

Charles: Note on the conversation about canvas, started from text spacing and not images of text, because understanding doc...
... <reads from>
... Canvas doesn't allow user to render that text differently.

Shawn: You would have to detect spacing adjustments and apply within canvas rendering.

Jeanne: Good point to go back and look at the continuing the functional needs (next agenda item).

Continuing functional needs for SC 142 Audio Control & 2.2.4

1.4.5 and images of text

Jeanne: Here's a link...
... I have some other things open on my desk that I want to mention...
... We have new proposals coming in on perception, and on content side personalizing content. They are related. After we finish this topic.

<jeanne> WCAG 2 Silver mIgration map https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCRXrtmnSSTso-6S_IO9GQ3AKTB4FYt9k92eT_1PWX4/edit

Jeanne: Here's the migration map (above)...
... Shawn, want to review work on 1.4.5? I think that starts with 1.4.4.

<Lauriat> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCRXrtmnSSTso-6S_IO9GQ3AKTB4FYt9k92eT_1PWX4/edit#heading=h.fjszln5otgkv

Shawn: This is the grouping 1.4.4 ...

<Lauriat> Grouping: SC 1.4.4 Resize text, SC 1.4.5 Images of Text, SC 1.4.9 Images of Text (No Exception), SC 1.4.8 Visual Presentation, SC 1.4.12 Text Spacing

Jeanne: We worked on it while you were away.

Shawn: There's a lot of user needs in here.
... Would someone talk through it?

Jeanne: We worked on it as a group. No single individual. We did it over 2 meetings.
... We went to understanding docs for each individual sc last Tuesday.
... We did merging, re-aranging and word smithing. That's where canvas came up.
... Charles, do you know which one refers to canvas?

Charles: Which user need?

Jeanne: yes.

Shawn: I've some q...
... For this grouping, for the methods we have, it's around text rendering customization. Virsual customization of rendered text.
... Seems like there's a lot of things that overlap.

Charles: We thought there would be another round of editing to merge bullets.
... I don't see specific need as it related to canvas. More than one of them do.
... Issue was trying to determine if there were additional needs if text is rendered through canvas.
... Docs specifically say it's considered an image.

Shawn: User needs aren't any different if the rendering is handled in a different way. We want tech agnostic user needs.
... Within browser you can render text in a bunch of different ways. We look to see if that way of rendering meets these user needs.
... HTML gives you a lot for free.

Charles: The other things we identified that we don't have the best phrase to describe, visual tracking.
... Within the realm of limited vision there's this concept of visual tracking. Things that are too narrow or close together...
... Need to have customization because tracking is the issue.

Shawn: With tracking this is something reading text and their ability to read across line, get to next line, and not lose there place?

Charles: Or readability in general. Assumes usage with vision, but tracking within their vision is the issue.
... Could be character to character and/or line to line.

Shawn: Makes sense.

Jeanne: Do you want to add that explanation to 3rd from the bottom Charles?

Shawn: We added usage with limited tracking.
... Maybe remove start.

Jeanne: We won't do editorial aspects today. We just want to capture the ideas.

Shawn: What is the user need specifically? I don't see it written down.
... Is the need to customize?

Charles: That sounds like a solution, the needs are written "usage without..." the need here is "I need to track between characters and lines."
... The solution is to allow customization.

Shawn: Got it!

Jeanne: Other than these adjustments, are people happy with this list of user needs for 1.4.4-1.4.12?

Shawn: I've a granular question. There's very specific things here.
... Should we break this up or generalize the user needs? Open question, I don't have a feeling one way or another.

Charles: My gut says the process of editing and combining will organically produce that result.
... We need to combine the ones that say the same things.

jeanne: I like the granularity. We may need to break this one up some. But maybe not as done in WCAG.

Charles: I think this is still the correct grouping of sc's.

Jeanne: Hoping someone will take this up when we finish up with the other ones that people took on as homework.
... Someone can take this one on and review and edit.
... Anybody on the call that wants this grouping?

<no takers>

Jeanne: Moving on to 1.2.2 and....

<Lauriat> SC 1.4.2 Audio Control, SC 2.2.4 Interruptions https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCRXrtmnSSTso-6S_IO9GQ3AKTB4FYt9k92eT_1PWX4/edit#heading=h.8ioplsj35s7t

Jeanne: Janina brought up captions.
... Do these look new to you Shawn?

Shawn: They do, but I've been 6 days away, no computers.

Jeanne: I'll read through <reading>
... Any others people thought of?

Janina: Not really a captcha issue, it's really an issue of the first point, you don't want overspeaking the text to speech engine.

<pkorn> Am I audible?

<pkorn> Skip me while I work that out

Shawn: There were 2 in the middle that seemed same user need.
... <reads>
... Seems like same user need.

Charles: I think the second one if we are going to name a specific disorder type opens up the q of whether or not we describe the core need behind it.
... I think these are different because one is visual plus audio, second one is not the combination, it's distraction period.

Shawn: I can get that difference, but the second one is a superset of the first one.

Charles: I think the reason that I am concerned about describing a.d.d. specifically is that there is a general trend to not name specific things.
... It opens the door for another specific one, autism users may have a compelling...
... I've read a lot, they state that they need to read every word on the page. There's a specific challenge when that process is interrupted.

Shawn: That sounds...
... Like a consequence when interrupted rather than a user need to avoid interruption.

Charles: I think the simplest way to describe is that understanding is impacted if reading is not completed.

Jeanne: Put these examples in the bullets. Coga will know that we were considering these issues (autism and a.d.d.)

Charles: We have 2 other groupings that come to mind.

Shawn: 2.2.4 has interruptions as its own thing. We may consolidate them. We have animation from interactions (2.3.3).
... the visual interruptions corresponding to the audio interruptions this one is addressing.
... We could consolidate around "interruptions".

<Lauriat> SC 2.2.4 Interruptions https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCRXrtmnSSTso-6S_IO9GQ3AKTB4FYt9k92eT_1PWX4/edit#heading=h.6alx9fshrle

Shawn: All of the methods are "interruption" based.
... Overlaps with a lot of what we are discussing now.
... Non consentual sound.

Charles: Are you saying we have the appropriate groupings and interruptions in the first case we reviewed, specific to audio?

<pkorn> Regrets; I need to leave a bit early.

Shawn: More of an open question. We could say that the grouping is specific to audio, and we can also do the same for visual.

Janina: Diving in.
... I'm tantalized by considering to combine them.
... Animations and spacings could be controlled through CSS. Would be an interesting point if css want's to have impacts on the various environments.
... I don't know the outcome, but that will be a conversation Tuesday morning.

Shawn: Thanks.
... I'm going to copy in the list.

<Lauriat> Methods: Visual interruptions, Audio interruptions, Focus interruptions, Announcement interruptions

Shawn: I'm of 2 minds. I don't want something that has too many tests and methods though conceptually its all the same kind of user need.
... Maybe this will be "here's ways you can test this." may be a good test case going through ACT

Janina: Don't know how the screen reader will handle this, or webex if the screen reader is talking.

Shawn: Not to high on webex.

Janina: The situation exists for any post connect on telephone. And people struggle.

Shawn: There's some things that could improve it, but would require platform changes.

Janina: Exactly.

Jeanne: Want to continue on this or take a few minutes on conformance?
... It would be an update rather than new work.

Shawn: Let's do an update.

Jeanne: Chuck's a GREAT scriber!

Conformance Issue #3 - measurements - brainstorm list for

Jeanne: We started working on issues list for conformance. We are trying to address some of the big picture items before
... We dive into how we measure things. In the hope that by solving big issues we will not have to redo the point system over and over.
... The one we were working on was what do we want to measure. Suggestion came up last week that we make a list of
... The things that we can measure and do a feasibility test where we do a rough scoring of these individual measures against WCAG and the 4 new items.
... We can see how these measures work.
... I want to make the list of measures that we want to test.
... We have some proposals we can tap into.
... I also want to add those from this group.
... Some examples are "ease of implementation"... "ease of testing", "effectiveness", "# of groups affected", "severity (I don't like this one)"
... Any others?

Chuck: Peter brought up "work-around".

<jeanne> Chuck: Peter Korn suggested the availability of workarounds

Janina: I want to suggest a straw man: there may be several situations where we want to split a single sc historically into a quantitative and qualitative test.
... Alt text is great example.
... review text is not machine testable yet beyond testing for structures. We should score those separately.
... And come up with different approaches.

Shawn: I look forward to working through this with ACT.
... Testing if alt text exists is one step in a line that you go through to complete the test.
... If no alt text, you have a conclusion, if there is alt text but blank, you need an assessment, and if there but not blank, need to evaluate the text.

Janina: That whole process applies to captions and described media, if tab order is meaningful, and a bunch more.

Shawn: I see that method of describing testing as very applicable to everything we are doing.

Janina: Silver will be great!

Shawn: 1-2 minutes left.

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

[End of minutes]

Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.154 (CVS log)
$Date: 2019/08/30 18:59:40 $

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

[Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.154  of Date: 2018/09/25 16:35:56  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: Irssi_ISO8601_Log_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/ regrets+Bruce//
Succeeded: s/ext/text/
Present: jeanne janina Chuck Lauriat CharlesHall pkorn KimD Rachael

WARNING: Replacing previous Regrets list. (Old list: Shawn)
Use 'Regrets+ ... ' if you meant to add people without replacing the list,
such as: <dbooth> Regrets+ 

Regrets: Bruce
Found Scribe: Chuck
Inferring ScribeNick: Chuck
Found Date: 30 Aug 2019
People with action items: 

WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines.
You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.

WARNING: IRC log location not specified!  (You can ignore this 
warning if you do not want the generated minutes to contain 
a link to the original IRC log.)

[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]