Silver Community Group Teleconference

20 Aug 2019


jeanne, janina, Léonie, (tink), Kim, Lauriat, JakeAbma, Chuck, KimD, Makoto, shari, JF, CharlesHall, johnkirkwood, Jan


<scribe> scribe: Chuck

Shawn: Pre-agenda, reminder of my (Shawn's) schedule.
... Jeanne may call on others to facilitate the silver calls.

Tasking out functional user needs drafting

Shawn: Sent email to folks, talked. Encouraged volunteering. We've had some positive responses. We have not had any claim things.
... So we can directly assign.

<CharlesHall> no objection. i can take a few.

Shawn: No arguments against.

JF: Do you have a copy of email or a URL for reference?

Shawn: I'll forward.
... From a couple of weeks ago.

Janina: Let's put it in IRC. Let's have it in the log.

Shawn: I'll collect the archive link.

<Lauriat> Archive link to task request: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-silver/2019Aug/0011.html

Shawn: As a side note, I had asked for help in getting these things logged into github for tracking.
... In talking with some folk last week there's no great automated way to get them into github. The best suggestion...
... was to use a template. If someone is familiar with templates and github would appreciate some help.

<Lauriat> Silver in github: https://github.com/w3c/silver/issues

Shawn: here's the github project <link>

JF: I heard you say we may or may not use github. What's the line?

Shawn: We'll use it for tracking status of tasks. For functional user needs that will be up to the user for what's best for the user.

JF: We should do it in one or other place.

Shawn: The individual who has it assigned will pick their place.
... Also came up last week, instructions for how to set up github so you can subscribe and respond to email.
... For those who have trouble using github, allows for everyone to interact. I don't have instructions, haven't seen instructions yet.
... But I'll follow up on getting instructions.

Janina: She sent draft late Friday.
... I'll make sure you get a copy.

Shawn: I just found the thread.

<Lauriat> Email Github instructions: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-silver/2019Aug/0037.html

JF: We will be doing this in github.

Shawn: You CAN do it in github.

JF: Where else can they do it?

Shawn: Wherever they are comfortable?

JF: Where will we handle the conversations and comments? google docs doesn't support threaded discussions.
... It's also not accessible.

Shawn: We are trying to allow for users to pick the environment that works best for them, and we will aggregate.

<shari> thank you!

Shawn: When we check state of given task, we'll make sure that there is a link to the workspace where the draft exists
... That will be consolidated in github.
... This is a process we are trying. We aren't necessarily setting this in stone. Just trying it for better issue tracking.
... We'll see how it works and go from there.
... WCAG Silver Outline Map...

<Lauriat> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCRXrtmnSSTso-6S_IO9GQ3AKTB4FYt9k92eT_1PWX4/edit

Shawn: First grouping is non text content. We have drafted as a group.
... Moving to next. Audio only and video only pre-recorded. We need functional needs for this one.
... Charles you volunteered, will you take on this one?
... 1.2.1, 1.2.8 and 1.2.9

Charles: I don't know how to do action item thing in Zakim.

Shawn: I'll create an issue in github.

<scribe> ACTION: Charles will take on migration of 1.2.1, 1.2.8 and 1.2.9 to silver.

<trackbot> Created ACTION-204 - Will take on migration of 1.2.1, 1.2.8 and 1.2.9 to silver. [on Charles Hall - due 2019-08-27].

<Lauriat> Functional needs for alternative content for audio and video

Charles: I am in github.

Janina: Are we figuring out on the fly that everyone needs a github account and subscribe to group?

Shawn: It would be helpful to have everyone's github accounts.
... I have some instructions on navigating github, instructions are there to connect account and subscribe to emails.

Charles: We are asking for everyone to have a github account.

Shawn: Ideally yes. If someone has trouble creating account... we can temporarily assign to me and I'll make notes on behalf.

Charles: That sounds good. We should document the request somehow.

Shawn: Great idea, I'll include in summary of today's minutes.

<Lauriat> Filed https://github.com/w3c/silver/issues/69

Shawn: I've filed that, too lengthy for 10 people on phone. We'll take from action items and create them after the fact.
... Next, captions. This is the grouping captions pre-recorded, captions live and sign language.

<Lauriat> Next group: SC 1.2.2 Captions (Prerecorded), SC 1.2.4 Captions (Live), SC 1.2.6 Sign Language (Prerecorded)

<Lauriat> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCRXrtmnSSTso-6S_IO9GQ3AKTB4FYt9k92eT_1PWX4/edit#heading=h.fpeqlt9qnga1

JF: We talk about these first two topics in context of video. I'm thinking... Charles would pick up in migration, we need to expand to multi-media, multi-modal.
... AR/VR, whatever.

<johnkirkwood> +1 to JF

Shawn: Good point. I mentioned recently. One of the things I'm looking forward to, looking at applicability of these across multi-media.

<johnkirkwood> AR and VR will be very very important

<Lauriat> +1

JF: As we think about that, there's also timed but unpredictable. AR/VR experiences. There is timing to it, but there are forks.
... Something we've never delt with before.

Shawn: Agreed. Closest analog is some of the video games out there.

JF: Exactly. Different forks, but we all reach end of game.

Charles: Pacing of content as well. Someone was going to ask Coga about insights.

JF: I've not been active in Coga. In APA research task force have been reviewing XR.
... One of the things AGWG is doing... for example Charles volunteered for multimedia. The way we do it for WCAG 2.2

<johnkirkwood> we haven't really addressed it that much in COGA, regarding AR VR and pacing

JF: Is there's an owner and a small cluster of people around the activity, and it goes back to larger wg.
... I'm interested in multimedia stuff. I've been active in the past. I'm happy for you to have the lead, and I'm happy to be involved.

Charles: Research is actively being reviewed. A document is growing. We'll spend time on this at TPAC. If you are a member of silver
... You can join.
... The more we have the better. Right now I'm trying to get some people from emersive web wg to join.

Shawn: That's fantastic. I'd like to join. I want to use that kind of direction to test the information architecture of silver.
... Test how well it works across these technologies, as this was a main goal of silver.

Charles: Right, is it keeping up.

Shawn: Looking forward to Japan.
... For captions and sign language, do we have a volunteer? To John's point, should we group all multi-media?
... Or does it make more sense to task out per grouping. One owner doesn't mean one person in isolation.

Charles: Not sure of answer to question. I have an observation. Captions is widely implemented. Sign language is virtually unimplementted
... Nobodies doing it except in live conferences. Maybe there's a first tier and second tier.

Shawn: I've seen one instance of this, children's ebooks for deaf, hard of hearing, asl users.

Jan: We also use it in assessment. I can take this one on.

Charles: I'd love to see those reference. We just unearthed something we need to know in the other activity.

Shawn: Jan, do you have a github id?

Jan: Yes.

<Jan> jmcsorle

<Lauriat> https://github.com/w3c/silver/issues/70

Shawn: Next... we have drafted... audio description.

<Lauriat> SC 1.3.1 Info and Relationships, SC 1.3.2 Meaningful Sequence, SC 1.3.5 Identify Input Purpose, SC 1.3.6 Identify Purpose, SC 3.3.2 Labels or Instructions

Shawn: Moving down... should be interesting. kitchen sink groupings. Pasting in.

<Lauriat> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCRXrtmnSSTso-6S_IO9GQ3AKTB4FYt9k92eT_1PWX4/edit#heading=h.d3u3fvumcxvq

Shawn: We've noted specific bits, this may require breaking out into a couple of groupings. There are a few methods.
... It's not drafted yet/though.
... Do we have someone who will volunteer?
... May start mentioning names.

Chuck: Can't volunteer for more because of contrast.

Shawn: Understood.
... As an example... this is the current place holder draft.

<Lauriat> Current placeholder draft: "The semantic needs for blind users, but also the understanding need for people with cognitive impairments."

Shawn: There's a number of methods here, mostly technical, tightly coupled to the dom and the accessibility tree as far as technologies go.
... Covers a wide range of actual user needs imho.
... As a reminder... we will probably identify groupings we need to adjust one away or another.

JF: One q I have... we have a lot of groupings that we figured out. This one (kitchen sink) will be difficult.
... I suggest we talk some smaller and easier ones and then come back to this one, because it's so huge.
... Chuck and Cybele took on color contrast and it's a can of worms, in his words, a lot of work.
... Info and relationships will be bigger than color contrast.
... Can we defer this one and come back to it when we have more experience? It's so huge, I understand why no one is volunteering.

<Makoto> +1 to JF

Shawn: Fare point. Will defer to later and we'll get more experience. Next group....

<Lauriat> Next up: SC 1.3.3 Sensory Characteristics, SC 1.4.1 Use of Color

<CharlesHall> i will take 1.3.3 / 1.4.1

<Lauriat> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCRXrtmnSSTso-6S_IO9GQ3AKTB4FYt9k92eT_1PWX4/edit#heading=h.oks9pxyygjow

Shawn: Thanks Charles.
... I'll create the issue later on.
... Next up... orientation and reflow.

<Lauriat> SC 1.3.4 Orientation, SC 1.4.10 Reflow https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCRXrtmnSSTso-6S_IO9GQ3AKTB4FYt9k92eT_1PWX4/edit#heading=h.hirzywsbl4d

Shawn: This was something that as we grouped things together we added a placeholder concept of a guideline.
... Viewport rendering....
... For orientation and reflow it's basically allowing the user to have different dimensions of the viewport for their needs, without losing content or functionality.
... Do we have a volunteer?
... Alternatively, is everyone on the call all volunteered up?
... If so, we can switch gears and start drafting them in the call.

Chuck: Various people mention that they have an assignment and don't want to take on a second.

<Lauriat> https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/orientation.html

<Lauriat> https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/reflow.html

Shawn: I'll open up links to the sc and use that as a guide for us to review in call.

Functional user needs working session

Shawn/JF: Our schedules are tight.

Chuck: Contratulations to John!

Shawn: For user needs... I've pasted in links.

<johnkirkwood> Good luck JF!

Shawn: For orientation. There's 2 things under benefits, will paste...

<Lauriat> Orientation benefit 1: Users with dexterity impairments, who have a mounted device will be able to use the content in their fixed orientation.

<Lauriat> Orientation benefit 2: Users with low-vision will be able to view content in the orientation that works best for them, for example to increase the text size by viewing content in landscape.

Shawn: I want to get it away from specific issues and abilities. I want to widen it.

Charles: We are looking for functional needs rather than use cases.

Shawn: Right.
... Could be rephrased from "user with this particular impairment" to "user can change orientation"

<johnkirkwood> +1

JF: I like that subtle distinction. Not "users with", but "users who can or cannot".
... I prefer the second because it's more inclusive.

<Lauriat> Draft: "Users who cannot change device orientation."

<various scenarios listed?>

Shawn: Second one... I'd like to re-word.
... This one seems pretty close. Users who "want to" view content in the orientation that works best for them.

<Lauriat> Draft 2: "Users who want to view content in the orientation that works best for them."

Janina: ...should be able to...

<Lauriat> Draft 2: "Users who want the ability to view content in the orientation that works best for them."

Charles: "want" may not be right word.

Jan: How about "need"?

<Lauriat> Draft 2: "Users who need the ability to view content in the orientation that works best for them."


Shawn: Much better.

Charles: That could change within a page. May need to view some content in one orientation and other content in a different orientation.

Shawn: There's a couple of ways to go from here. We could go through functional needs, or are there other cases for orientation that may not be covered.
... I think this is pretty good coverage.

Chuck: I like the second point.

Shawn: Then moving on to reflow.

JK: I'm going to offer this: We conflate orientation with aspect ratio, and orientation is a paper based landscape vs...
... Text can run horizontally or vertically, it's not about old paradigm paper portrate vs landscape. Not certain of specifically the right words to explain.
... You are designing for a screen that is taller than wider (or visa versa).
... Often a device based thing. I'm not sure if we are really describing it in a way that could be more elegant and useful.

Shawn: Agreed. Good point. I think that we go through understanding docs to capture user needs and see if we can generalize wording.
... Grouping itself is the flexibilty of viewport dimensions for all intensive purposes.
... We may be able to consolidate for the overall concept of orientation and reflow. I like this path as it helps us understand it.


Shawn: Also a very good point.

<Lauriat> Reflow understanding: https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/reflow.html

Shawn: Intent starts off with specific case. Will paste.

<Lauriat> The intent of this Success Criterion is to support people with low vision who need to enlarge text and read it in a single column. When the browser zoom is used to scale content to 400%, it reflows - i.e., it is presented in one column so that scrolling in more than one direction is not necessary.

Shawn: pasting in the list of benefits

<Lauriat> One column view in responsive design: A site uses responsive design. When a person zooms in to over 300%, the layout is reflowed to one column. The user can read the content easily and does not have to scroll sideways to read.

<Lauriat> PDF offering reflow: In a PDF created to conform to PDF/Universal Accessibility (ISO 14289), the content can be reflowed and zoomed in to make reading possible for someone with low-vision.

Shawn: Need to turn that into a user need.
... For that first one, for zooming... while previous sc was around dimensions of viewport, this is around changing the resolution, but a better word

Chuck: Scale????

Charles: Not sure how to best describe it either, but it's about limiting effort. Applies to fine and gross motor control and having to scroll excessivley

Shawn: The method we have written for this...

<Lauriat> Method for this: Provide content that renders usably [within reasonable constraints] with scrolling only in one dimension.

Janina: Key is the limitation of scrolling in one axis alone.

Charles: Use case missing... being able to scroll to content at all that is in fixed location. Sometimes can't scroll to content.

Janina: Is that a requirement where it has to be scrollable? Can paginate.

Shawn: True, this is without loss of content or functionality. It's up to the application and user agent to provide access.
... Scrolling is typical case, but paging is a possibility.

JF: Opera was great!

Chuck: Should we avoid perscribing a specific approach?

Shawn: Ideally yes. Scrolling doesn't make sense for VR. We don't want to be prescriptive in functional user needs.
... For this sc we need to get to the core of why the scrolling aspect is important and what user need is that filling.
... I think that with 2 axis of scrolling it makes it difficult to get through and keep track of location.

Charles: There's also visual and understanding needs based on visibility, where users aren't aware that there's overflow.

Shawn: Yep.
... I'm thinking let's have a quick look at second part, note it's in progress and not complete. Let's plant some seeds as to direction.

<Lauriat> PDF offering reflow: In a PDF created to conform to PDF/Universal Accessibility (ISO 14289), the content can be reflowed and zoomed in to make reading possible for someone with low-vision.

Shawn: These benefits that are listed seem more like techniques, but meet the same user need.
... Anybody remember conversation around this one?

JF: repeat q?

Shawn: 2 different benefits for reflow, but it seems to be same benefit, just 2 implementations, just describing techniques.
... One is responsive design 2nd is PDF offering reflow.

JF: You are right user benefit is what it is. This one in particular came from low vision. It was in response to research from Wayne Dick.
... with PDF technique is very different. Functional requirement is the same.
... When we think in an expansive perspective, it's going to apply to any digital offering.
... We keep going back to XR. Is there applicability there as well? User may need to adjust viewport to enlarge caption files or something like that.
... magnified view. Understanding that it came from low vision will allow us to think beyond the 2 techniques.

Shawn: Yes. We are at time. Making note in doc and adding to github.
... Saying for reflow aspect resources links from understanding doc is a good place to pick back up.

<Lauriat> trackbot, end meeting

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Charles will take on migration of 1.2.1, 1.2.8 and 1.2.9 to silver.

Summary of Resolutions

[End of minutes]

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Default Present: jeanne, janina, Léonie, (tink), Kim, Lauriat, JakeAbma, Chuck, KimD, Makoto, shari, JF, CharlesHall, johnkirkwood
Present: jeanne janina Léonie (tink) Kim Lauriat JakeAbma Chuck KimD Makoto shari JF CharlesHall johnkirkwood Jan
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Found Date: 20 Aug 2019
People with action items: charles

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