<scribe> scribe: evan
<Jemma> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/August-20,-2019-Meeting
matt: there’s going to be another working draft of ARIA, which is relevant here
james: I don’t know when the
working draft will be out
... it’s not implemented in gecko or blink yet
matt: where’s the right place for this in the APG? do we need guidance or should they be a pattern?
james: insertion/deletion are
structural—they’re part of HTML
... why would use this rather than <ins> or
<del>
matt: I don’t know if this is similar to button where you should use the element most of the time but may not want to sometimes
james: if they’re putting spans in, why can’t they put ins or del in instead?
matt: ins and del cannot cross certain boundaries in HTML?
james: correct
... I don’t think this is high enough priority to include [as a
pattern] right now
<Jemma> https://w3c.github.io/annotation-aria/
james: we should wait for aria-annotations to be fleshed out more before proceeding with ins/del
matt: should we include aria-annotations in practices as well?
<Jemma> https://w3c.github.io/annotation-aria/#example-14-suggestion-using-ins-and-del
james: yes, but other items need to be created first (e.g., the aam)
matt: this is similar to aria-details, which we’ve removed to APG. maybe we should include aria-annotations along with it when we get to it (as a separate chapter)
james: once it’s at a maturity
level where we can do that, we should. we shouldn’t write that
chapter today.
... insertion/deletion is in aria for role parity
matt: alright, that works.
james: insertion/deletion is just an example, we have a bunch of other things
jemma: is aria-details a wrapper for insertion/deletion? is there any relationship?
matt: yes, aria-details is the method you use to describe details about the insertion/deletion (annotation)
matt: in our last discussion, we were leaning toward consensus that there was no reason to use group within list
<Jemma> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1011
matt: listitem must be either in
a list or group but we should be able to remove group from
that
... AT doesn’t have a meaningful way to convey it
james: the commenter said it doesn’t work anyway
sarah: i looked through list-related issues and found one that could’ve debatably used it but could’ve been better served by being a tree
<Jemma> git-help
matt: this would be a pretty easy pull request to fix it. is that the next step?
james: yes, that’s the best thing to do
matt: sounds like we have consensus to remove it!
<Jemma> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/1099
<Jemma> "A tooltip is a popup that displays information related to an element when the element receives keyboard focus or the mouse hovers over it. It appears after a brief delay, typically about X milliseconds, and it disappears when Escape is pressed or on mouse out."
<Jemma> matt proposed this.
matt: ARIA says it SHOULD appear
after a small delay. in APG we don’t use normative language
like SHOULD or MUST
... we want to include language that clarifies ambiguous
language and accounts for exceptions
... is there a number where I have “X milliseconds” that makes
sense here?
... or a range?
james: what’s the setting in windows and macos by default?
jon: what’s the accessibility
issue related to the delay?
... so if I make something that pops up when it gets keyboard
focus, is that not a tooltip? or is the delay related to an
accessibility requirement?
matt: notice that the first sentence doesn’t say anything about a delay
<Dorothy_Bass> can you measure it if you are using dialup? do you need to say how long?
Dorothy_Bass: I think the delay is fine but you can’t know how fast or slow it is
jon: why are we saying it at all?
matt: because it’s in the spec
james: I don’t mind if the spec removes the normative language, and instead says “typically”
jon: can the spec say it may appear…?
james: I think that’s less clear
matt: if it “typically” does,
what are the reasons when there wouldn’t be a delay?
... the reason I usually hear is that it’s a distraction
Dorothy_Bass: sometimes tooltips appear after a long duration
jon: we don’t have any delay on our toolbar “tooltips”
matt: those aren’t technically tooltips, though
jon: but to anyone looking at them, they would say, “that’s a tooltips"
james: I think the issue is kind of a non-issue. I don’t think any of us really care what the resolution is because it doesn’t make a great deal of difference
matt: yeah, this is minor issue
<Jemma> orginal issue ="ARIA Spec 1.1 and 1.2 for tooltip (role) both say: "authors SHOULD display the tooltip after a short delay". However, the Authoring Practices Guide 1.1 and 1.2 for Tooltip Widget both say "It typically appears after a small delay". The spec makes it sound like the delay is required whereas the APG makes it sound optional. They should be consistent."
matt: I think the right answer is to remove normative language from the spec so that APG and ARIA are equally ambiguous
<Jemma> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/milestone/10
matt: the point of this milestone
is to make sure we have exactly the right things for this
working draft
... jemma and I prioritized this list so the 10 most important
things appear first
... let’s make sure we have the right things in this list and
that we have someone to help us get this stuff done
... let’s take a minute or so on each of these
james: I can tackle the first two
<Jemma> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/727
<Jemma> "Review 1.2 IDL(Interface Definition Language) button example #727"
matt: it seems like there are implementation issues in this IDL button. what do we need to do here?
james: we just need 2 reference
implementations
... the IDL stuff is already in the spec, so this one is not
prioritized highly for me
matt: so it looks like we’re done for this
james: correct
matt: the next issue is draft meter pattern (https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/979)
sarah: I don’t mind taking it
matt: I don’t really know what will go into it but hopefully it’ll help explain why you’d make an ARIA meter
<Jemma> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/tree/MeterRoleSection/examples/meter
james: the nice thing about meter is that you don’t really need to include keyboard so it’s easier than most of the ones we’ve created
matt: the aria-rowindextext and
aria-colindextext might be best in the grid and table or on on
their own
... I might be able to get to this
... I have the sense that these aren’t hugely controversial but
people will appreciate them when they appear
james: I agree
... another one on that note is aria-posinset and
aria-setsize
matt: i didn’t have that in APG because, frankly, I didn’t think it’d get done in time
james: it might be easy for someone who knows tree grids
<Jemma> https://w3c.github.io/aria-practices/#treegrid
james: aaron’s the one who wanted this and opened it in the first place, so maybe we can get him to do it
matt: next is naming/describing. I’d like to get Simon to continue working on this
jon: if simon’s not available, I can help on that
matt: but I want your help on combobox first and foremost
james: i don’t think label/legend/fieldset are high priority for the third working draft
matt: issue #913 (listbox w/group) seems pretty simple
<Jemma> done - changed the priority for label, legend and fieldset
matt: I’d propose we just use one of our existing ones and change the content
sarah: I could do it by the end of September
matt: the meter one is higher
priority of course
... we got through the list!
james: I have two more...
... checkbox and switch with aria-required
matt: do we need an example or can we just add text to the pattern?
james: text to the pattern is
adequate
... it’d be nice to have an example
... your APG issue is much more generic, which is why it hasn’t
been picked up
matt: let’s raise a separate issue for this
james: (referencing https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/252)
... the other one I was thinking of was aria-expanded on
checkbox
matt: we do have a disclosure pattern, but that uses buttons
james: I think it makes more sense there
matt: I don’t have a very good example of when you’d do this
<Jemma> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/618
james: joanie says this works everywhere, so we may not need to add patterns for them since they’re an extension of existing patterns
matt: maybe you’re right. maybe we don’t need guidance on this one. maybe if someone came up with a pattern that we could include
sarah: I can attest to the fact that people will use it if it’s in APG
matt: maybe we say that we don’t
need specific things for these roles
... sounds great
<Jemma> group talked about aria-required, aria-expaneded, aria-posinset and aria-setsize on row. see above scribe.
<Jemma> The group talked about aria-required, aria-expaneded, aria-posinset and aria-setsize on row. see above scribe.
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