<jamesn> 5:08 PM agenda+ [New PR Triage](https://github.com/search?l=&q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+created%3A%3E%3D2019-07-18+repo%3Aw3c%2Faria+repo%3Aw3c%2Faccname+repo%3Aw3c%2Fcore-aam&type=Issues)
<jamesn> 5:08 PM agenda+ [Agenda for TPAC 2019](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1001)
<jamesn> 5:08 PM agenda+ [Revising what ARIA attributes should be considered global](https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/999)
<jamesn> 5:08 PM agenda+ Naming Techniques Discussion
<scribe> scribe: melanierichards
https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1022
jamesn: 1.2?
joanie: Scott pointed out biggest problem is handled in HTML-AAM, but there's still some in ARIA on me
https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1021
jamesn: way too big to tackle in
1.3
... do we even want to milestone, or punt further?
https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1019
jamesn: later in agenda, 1.2?
https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1017
jamesn: putting a question label instead of a milestone
Scott_O: I can take a stab at that, it's related to toast component
https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1015
carmacleod: talked about it last
time, it's editorial
... probably won't be done til September
jamesn: all are in the agenda
<Jemma> I think Matt King wanted to talk about list and group so I will add that to the agenda
jamesn: TPAC becoming urgent, we
need agenda items. And if we need to coordinate with other
groups, we need to know today or tomorrow
... please take a look at this today if possible
carmacleod: can I put F2F label on DOM order issue?
jamesn: you can put the candidate label on it, anyone can put a candidate on an issue
melanierichards: annotations on the agenda?
jamesn: planning on having something to share with the group soon, will be discussing annotations with the annotations WG at TPAC. Unfortunately Aaron won't be there
jongund: aria-details?
jamesn: probably related to the discussion but feel free to add if you have a specific question
<Jemma> APG meeting minutes did not record that ARIA list structure will be one of the TPAC agenda. https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1011
jamesn: will try to do annotations for best possible time for call-ins
<carmacleod> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1023
jamesn: I took a first pass at a
PR w/r/t global ARIA attributes based on what Scott wrote
... doesn't change anything on aria-describedby and
aria-details. Didn't do anything with aria-controls.
mck: the comments you're talking about, are they all in #999?
jamesn: yes
mck: well we did come to some
decisions w/r/t aria-controls in APG...maybe I didn't make a PR
for this. One thing we talked about was clearly defining the
controlling thing. We were going to bring to larger group
... if the group agrees with that, it would be pretty easy to
restrict aria-controls to things that can control
jamesn: [reads out aria-controls
definition]
... I think this is a tangent, we have a discussion about how
aria-controls isn't well supported by ATs and may want to make
other changes restricting use
... would like to go through what we have and put aria-controls
as a later topic
... want to do the well understood ones first
mck: ok, if we leave it in here and deal it with it later that would be good
jamesn: my PR is there for discussion, not going to be merged at this point in time
mck: the ones that I'm iffy on are (just an inkling)...aria-haspopup, is that something that you might ever want to make something focusable only because it has a popup, but it has a static structural role. Is that valid markup we want to support?
carmacleod: is a contextmenu a popup?
mck: that's kind of what a popup
is, can change semantics on certain placements. I don't know if
you're supposed to put aria-haspopup on a tree item if it has a
context menu, we don't do that in APG...menu buttons and
comboboxes are really clear about needing aria-haspopup,
otherwise I'm not clear on when you need it if you have a
context menu
... do we have a clear understanding of the use of
aria-haspopup?
carmacleod: still not sure about context menu, which could go on anything
Scott_O: that's not communicated right now
mck: nothing in aria-haspopup itself that indicates that it's only for certain kinds of things. James, what change did you make?
jamesn: what Scott put in his comment
Scott_O: I looked at this as interactive or form controls are where people are usually aria-haspopup to load menus, listboxes, etc
mck: notable that you skipped
tab, I've noticed it pretty extensively on tab
... anything in the browser has a context menu...
Scott_O: and that's not communicated now. We're not saying everything needs "aria-haspopup"
mck: put it there only if you customized the context menu? but that could get equally annoying
Scott_O: it's originally for menu
role and then got expanded
... not all SRs have updated to respect all the different roles
where supported
stefan: I want aria-haspopup as general as possible
mck: then we have a problem of
telling SR devs what the expectations are for where to support
aria-haspopup
... intent when we added in ARIA 1.1 was ONLY to support
combobox
jamesn: there are some cases where something looks like a button that launches a popup (menu button) but it's really a dialog
mck: well but in that case SR mode gets confused if you say it's a menubutton but it opens a dialog
stefan: adding a role for dialog button?
mck: that would add more work for API developers
jamesn: so I'm hearing that some
things need to happen on aria-haspopup before we can decide on
global or not
... we need to clarify its use
[general agreement]
mck: if we want SRs to do more, we have to be really clear about that, otherwise it adds noise like aria-controls
[Scott_O volunteers to file this issue]
jamesn: put on 1.2
... what is our expectation of AT when aria-haspopup is on
different roles. Which roles support should fall out of
that
... let's park the rest of the discussion,let people read it,
and leave comments in the discussion. Keep the discussion in
the issue if you can, please only comment on PR if very
specific to how PR was done
jamesn: we now have a couple
additional naming strategies e.g. encapsulation and
legend
... jongund proposing a couple others
jongund: the heading one we discussed at SF F2F
<jongund> https://raw.githack.com/w3c/aria/issue899-accname-from-heading/index.html#namecalculation
jongund: [reads off list of roles
that would get name from heading child]
... the other concern was nesting, can heading only be used for
closest ancestor vs being the label for multiple elements
jamesn: I don't see main
working
... mains generally don't need a name
mck: there's certain situations where you want to name it in single page apps
Scott_O: I don't think you always want articles inheriting from headings
jamesn: some ATs exposing all articles
Scott_O: I thought it was interesting that James C brought this up because VO doesn't announce unnamed articles
<jamesn> https://raw.githack.com/w3c/aria/issue899-accname-from-heading/index.html#namefromheading
https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/5qsAvYN9/name%20from%20heading
mck: I don't think we should have implicit namings of regions
jongund: you could explicitly name but you wouldn't have to manage it
<jongund> https://raw.githack.com/w3c/aria/issue899-accname-from-heading/index.html#region
mck: you could have a region with several paragraphs, and then a heading, and according to this, that heading could become the name for that region. That could be very misleading.I'd rather have no name.
jamesn: I think having region
here is risky
... if we're looking into doing things like this, I'd rather us
hammer down the ones that have pretty good consensus first
mck: I think this problem with region could be a problem with others as well (article)
carmacleod: looking at the table
element in HTML-AAM, it says very clearly first child, not
first descendent
... maybe we should make that clearer
<carmacleod> https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/tables.html#the-caption-element
jongund: so change it to be first child element?
jamesn: do we have broad consensus to not have it on some things?
mck: well if we do first child element than I'm fine with it on region
jamesn: we're at the hour, we
didn't get to caption. Can people take a look and leave
comments for Jon?
... this could all massively complicate Acc Name, are we ok
with that direction?
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