<George> ACTION: George to provide links to zakim and rrsagent documentation.
<George> chair: Cary
<George> Scribe: George
Accepted
<franco> scribenick: Franco
george: if you have people who
want to join, have them come to this page. i have only been
sending invites to this mailing list...
... its a good size, but just please spread the word. i'll
continue contacting people who have expressed interest
george: if we have anybody who
can help with the github site, i would love some help. I am in
the process of learning...
... github for the past year and still struggling.
volker: i'll be happy to help
george: first task: move old site that was started by charles in the DIAGRAM center space over to our space
cary: we decided to focus on a
general chemistry context, in particular on the high school
level
... the more we make that content accessible, then we can work
on the advanced stuff later.
... we talked about reading of elements within specific
chemical equations
... how should NaCl be pronounced? sodium chloride in
descriptive mode, and spelled out in a different mode
dan: it has been brought up by
others that somtimes we need it read one way or another. we
think it is important pedagogically...
... they should be able to have both of those options available
to them.
steve: taht is exactly the model
that was followed in math player. if you have math player
installed on your machine, under the chemistry settings, you
can switch the reading...
... there is precedence for that.
cary: it would be good if we had
an assessment. teachers would want their students to know that
NaCl is sodium chloride
... we want visuals to be well described
... there is an advantage to someone having content knowledge
that writes long desccriptions of chemistry. but if theyre not
trained in writing descriptions, they may not ...
... be useful.
... we were brainstorming ideas of workshops to train content
experts to write long descriptions. first they would be
available in textbook form and then in additional
contexts
... we start with the baseline of what we know.
dan: you need the 30,000 foot
view sometimes. like a benzene molecule is described in a
certain way (six sides, carbons, alternating single double
bonds, etc)
... so then they have that basic structure and then a tool that
takes you part by part through the molecule more closely.
Elaine: ive been using daisy
books for years. targeting dyslexic students. what we would do
for the early students ...
... by the time they get a little bit higher, just say a
benzene ring
george: the fundamental thing we
need to pay attention to is the extended descriptions of
various chem constructs. we've seen different efforts. the
national science foundation ...
... wgbh descriptions in a project. im not sure that they
focused on chemistry. trying to provide the same kind of
guidance. i imagine that the number of items that need to be
described...
... are infinite. having said that , ive talked to in DAISY
community. every example is a variation on a typical
theme.
... newton's second law of motion is represented in different
ways but the principle is the same. trying to get the
principles down would be good.
... if we could get a collection of really good descriptions
that would help people.
dan: ultimately we want someone
describing an image in Kansas describing it the same way in
someone on the other side of the planet. when i study
chemistry, everyone described things a bit differently
... it worked for someone like us who wanted to learn it. but
what we are seeing is if we can get these kinds of rules going
early on, it wont be as disruptive when you move from one level
to the next and possibly materials ...
... coming from another place. those descriptions will be
identical. the content may be laid out differently. it may use
different pedagogy for teaching, but the descriptions of the
equations and molecular formulas will be identical
cary: at least that is the goal. there has been a common naming system for organic chemistry molecules. it may be possible that there is an extension that could be made for long descriptions
volker: at the time when we put
together a system, effectively we had it automatically named
the structures. i would be happy to offer those as a starting
point. the IUCAP rules are far too complicated with complex
molecules.
... with the navigation
jason: on the first part that was
discussed, we had a very good meeting with the mathml community
group. they were interested in adding semantic enrichment to
the next revision to the next mathml spec to be able ...
... to identify chemistry elements. typesetting and
accessibility advantages were noted. this would be in
presentation mathml.
... the mechanisms for doing that are in proposal state. these
enrichments would be not just for chemistry but for other math
elements
... this would simplify some of the heuristics needed by speech
engines. it could clarify the semantics. it seems that we are
headed toward a solution
... regarding diagrams and structures: that is where i have
less expertise, but based on volker's project generating svg
from recognized images but also chemistry related mark up, it
seems to me...
... it should be possible to generate navigable
structures
... we have in principle solutions but we have some details for
rulesets to be established
cary: descriptive overview i
think should come first before the atom by atom navigation
info. there will come a point where a student is advanced
enough to not want that view. we want to have that
flexibility.
... more in depth navigation can be overwhelming
dan: and often unnecessary. unless youre in an organic chemistry class, usually you are just being presented with these molecules without the need for detail.
george: trying to get consistent
descriptions from humans is never going to work. thats what
machines are really good at.
... i think that this description overview for younger students
is essential.
... i dont think we should have a goal of having them rigidly
defined
cary: i think we are going to have the humans define the rules of how the machine is going to do the work
jason: what do we have by
existing guidelines for spoken presentation? are they
adequate?
... how can they be formalized?
... that sounds to me like a discrete project
cary: steve noble did work with chemML. did that work go beyond chemical equations?
steve: no. the work was more for linear format and those were for mathml.
volker: we take the chemML and start enriching it with semantics to make our structure diagrams.
steve: i would love to work with
cary and volker to submit a proposal to the national science
foundation
... it would be a great collaborative work to push that
forward.
george: i have put forward to the
DIAGRAM folks of this notion for funding for chemistry. i have
been thinking of it as a pool of different organizations
working together
... NSF sounds like a good spot. perhaps department of
education. i think that it would be good for us to collaborate
on identifying serious funding. i have said from the
beginning...
... this is a huge amount of work. i agree with getting
funding. i love the work that volker has done, trying to
license that would be a great approach.
jason: for braille we have
established codes for formulas. there is a braille code in
north america for the structural formatting. i wonder if there
needs to be additional work apart from that to enable
automation.
... just want to make sure we know the scope of the work.
george: i imagine that 3d modeling is here as well
jason: nascent proposal in the works here: what would be the best appraoch here what would be the objectives? i think there are some very experienced proposals.
cary: steve, jason, volker, and i
can meet offline to follow up on this
... to work on research proposal
george: one of the focuses for this group is to acquire funding for research and development. that is the current agenda item.
cary: it is two fold. searching
for funding is going to take half a year.
... we need something in the interim
<scribe> ACTION: george to email neil when he wants chemistry people to show up for math meeting
george: someone from this working
group has just successfully completed a very long term project.
tzviya has a baby. all is going well with her.
... next call is scheduled for august 22. does that work for
others?
dan: the biggest thing is getting
everyone together because i know like you were just saying
george, we look around, dont find it, you start making your own
solutions
... that is the biggest pain point even within our own company.
we are charged with making things accessible. it differs from
department to department how they do it. it deviates from
people working on different lessons
... we 're sending people out on these uncharted waters and we
get different results even within a program. so i have never
been one for thinking there is only one solution. there are
probably many but let's just have a solution that everyone
agrees on
... or everyone has buy-in into. if we can do that, that would
be phenomenal for chemical education in general
george: i think doing this within
the w3c, you get more visibility worldwide. otherwise, you do
it within your own company, website. DIAGRAM is a good example.
theyve done a lot good things but people dont reference these
places...
... as much as they do w3c
dan: it's all connected. the digital presence influences the books we make.
george: we havent started discussing things on youtube, for example. but it's the way people learn. i would not rule out that medium for communication and education.
cary: i have seen chemistry taught in unambiguous ways on youtube, but the majority are bad
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.154 of Date: 2018/09/25 16:35:56 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: Irssi_ISO8601_Log_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/Eam/Elaine/ Default Present: George, franco, SteveNoble, Dan_B, jasonjgw, Avneesh, Volker, Cary Present: George franco SteveNoble Dan_B jasonjgw Avneesh Volker Cary Found Scribe: George Inferring ScribeNick: George Found ScribeNick: Franco ScribeNicks: Franco, George Found Date: 25 Jul 2019 People with action items: george WARNING: IRC log location not specified! (You can ignore this warning if you do not want the generated minutes to contain a link to the original IRC log.)[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]