<joshmarinacci> @trevorfsmith good morning
<scribe> scribe: Chris Wilson
<scribe> scribenick: cwilso
Trevor: main topic will be https://github.com/immersive-web/proposals/issues/39 and https://github.com/immersive-web/proposals/issues/40, if you haven't seen them take a quick look.
*general envy of Ada's mask-face from new delivery*
Rik: Google Hangouts on Magic Leap works, and shows your camera feed
trevor: welcome all
atai: two issues have been
opened. First issue is how to deliver subtitles in 360 videos,
use cases are described in issues. Problems to solve:
positioning subtitles in 360 video, identifying speakers.
... requirements have also been brought up in future of TTML
(in Timed Text WG)
... original we wanted to solve this this year, but may not
happen.
... first maybe we should discuss the requirements and use
cases, but I'd like to understand where the appropriate venue
is to try to solve this problem space.
trevor: one thing that has been
discussed in the issue is the level of abstraction.
... we're using IRC queue, so please Q+ yourself
<bajones> +present
trevor: One ? - if a web developer is using WebXR, WebXR is kind of a black box for rendering. Doesn't really go into how things are rendering, there's no obvious place to manipulate the scene or insert subtitles, e.g.
klaus: this could be done at
different levels - at app level, which doesn't help developers
much, or could be purely at the user agent level, but as trevor
mentioned is not really the way WebXR works today; or maybe
it's a separate layer?
... I'm not sure there's a "right" solution to this. It's not
really clear what the proposal is for what one would want to
do.
<Zakim> klausw, you wanted to say is this app-level, UA level, or a mix?
vlad: first: regarding XR and
advanced applications. in typical subtitle scenario, user may
not hear audio at all.
... in 3D audio, you may get this cue, but the subtitle may
need to give this directional cue also.
... you'll need to provide this information somehow.
... in general XR applications, text may be labels or the like,
not just subtitles.
... i.e., it might be better to think of #40 as "labeling" not
"subtitling"
<bajones> +q
atai: thanks for feedback. Klaus,
I think what you are saying is that it's unclear where to solve
the requirements. I think there's not a single ecosystem to
solve it. The requirement from the user is "I want subtitles" -
so we need to figure out which ecosystem or ecosystems can
solve it.
... size and position of subtitles are also important - like in
2D - so TTML is attractive. But where do you signal there are
subtitles at all?
... it's not clear if this is scope of your group?
trevor: I think it's clearly in
the purview of the WG... It would be interesting to hear from
Nell.
... (about how they've considered this problem)
brandon: fascinating example of
how we can augment data on the web for immersive. A
high-quality user-space library could step in and take over
some of this. This would still be a good home for the eventual
need.
... the big question for me is are there aspects of the
accessibility angle that would best interact with the UA
level?
... there are a wide variety of accessibility systems out
there. The most compelling reason for a browser standard may be
that avenue to assistive tools.
<johnpallett> :q
<trevorfsmith> heh
cwilso: It's clear that TTML
should be expanded to capture the 360 positioning of subtitles.
But the challenge is we don't have a 360 video primitive in
WebXR
... in the short term, if TTML can be added to for this case, a
user library can take over this space for the moment when it
does the video stretching, etc.
... once we add a primitive it should be able to do this, but
we need a general 3d overlay layer.
<Vlad> To offer some clarity on things I mentioned: 3D audio provides directional cues so we need to consider them, and the 3D audio source itself can be a moving object. Coordinate based positioning of subtitles could be sufficient in certain cases, but we also need to accommodate object-based attachment points (also true for labeling use cases).
atai: the scope of this gets
pretty big quickly, so not sure where to start. 360 video
seemed the most obvious to start.
... actually about rendering of text, though, of course.
... not limited to 360 video environment. Is it better to look
at something else?
johnpallett: there are a number
of things here - the transmission of subtitles beyond 2D
subtitles and broadcast transmission standards. There is prior
art in broadcast standards for using web standards to enhance
broadcast standards.
... probably best to start with "can this use case be enabled
in webxr today" - exploring what can the browser do vs what can
the standards support?
... broadcast standards might benefit from the coordinate
system.
... it would help to know the lay of hte land from the
transmission perspective.
atai: specific delivery over the web, this is probably the best place to start.
johnpallett: it's worth exploring
what the browser can do today, separate from the conversation
about how can webxr be used in other standards (E.g. the
coordinate system in transmission standards)(
... e.g. atai mentioned some MPEG work.
trevor: maybe Timed Text could help get some context where this fits.
atai: my question is really, some
parts of this need more work on your side.
... extending TTML ...
... the question is, on the list of topics you currently work
on, is this going to see some attention?
... is this something you're going to work on in the near
future?
trevor: in general, yes, but most
people are head-down on trying to ship first rev of
WebXR.
... until we have a base on which to ship something else, some
of these conversations are general.
... we can use the proposals issue to track.
cwilso: Is this a work item in
Timed Text WG? That's probably the top thing to solve. Then we
need to do overlays in WebXR (on the plate), and a JS lib can
be built
... prior to generating a primitive.
trevor: will follow up with Andreas and the TTWG.
trevor: if you are a repo manager, please use the form: https://forms.gle/yeXkH4cfrVAX4pt16 to suggest topics in the next day or so, we're about to make the schedule.
<Leonard> This one? https://github.com/immersive-web/proposals/issues/50
trevor: John will be the repo
lead; please take a look.
... any other topics?
... hearing no further requests... Andreas and I will follow
up
<bertf> thanks!
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