Silver Community Group Teleconference

14 May 2019


Chuck, Lauriat, chrisloiselle, Cyborg, jeanne, AngelaAccessForAll, Jan, KimD, johnkirkwood


Silver COntent template draft

<jeanne> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RcCyt9PJKUIjj341qc_ERiQrwoMUCWMP-exGXZgkzEk/edit

<jeanne> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RcCyt9PJKUIjj341qc_ERiQrwoMUCWMP-exGXZgkzEk/edit

<scribe> Scribe: Chuck

Jeanne: Reviewed "Template for Silver Content" document.
... Review now?

Shawn: Carry on.

<Cyborg> just curious why test comes first?

<KimD> Can someone repost the link to what's being reviewed please?

Jeanne: We worked that out at TPAC with testing group. Should discuss. They have orientation towards testing but their premis is if you write the test first (user need first) and how you test that the need was met...
... You end up with a more accurate description of methods and guidelines. Biggest takeaway is you can make it cheaper to test more efficient to test if you do the test before the guidelines.

<Lauriat> Template for Silver Content: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RcCyt9PJKUIjj341qc_ERiQrwoMUCWMP-exGXZgkzEk/edit

Jeanne: They had a number of guidelines. If WCAG test criteria had been written this way, would have gone better. Example of headings. WCAG does not require that headings meet a logical outline.

<KimD> Thx

Jeanne: But if they did, they could be tested automatically instead of manually. It would help people with disabilities more and be less expensive if test could be automated.
... If you start writing the test with how you meet the user needs, will have better results.

Shawn: Also ensures that overall guidance remains centered around helping the user.

Cybelle: Is there a distinction between how would I know the user need was met vs. how would I know that the person did this correctly.
... First question is ...whether or not you are meeting the user need, second question is more about method completion. Are there 2 testing processes?

Shawn: Distinction is that by testing if the user need is met, decouples implementation from test.

Cybelle: If the first question is answered does that mean you don't need the 2nd question?

Shawn: Potentially. If looking at a doc in google docs, if there's an image, you could add alt text without using html. User need is met.

<jeanne> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IVmg0MVHeJipg2ovENQtIkCzbq2izWeGKWaIqYLf0M4/

Jeanne: I can show an example. Jan and I tried filling out one last night. We picked section headings (didn't want to interfere with group priorities). Plain language is already filled out.
... If you go down to the section on tests, we picked out automated label tests, automated headings tests, heading list tests in screen reader, and new test. Rubric about how good the headings are.
... <reviews doc>
... That was our example of a new test using a rubric.

Cybelle: COOL!

Jeanne: We think it makes it oriented towards the user need rather than the technical. Automated will handle technical testing. Rubric makes it more extendable beyond html.
... Reality it would need to be fleshed out more. As a sketch this is an example of what a new test could look like.
... If you go down to guidelines in template, you could write the.. that guideline should be moved to the end. We should do extended description first.
... ... you should know really clearly what the guideline should be.
... We have getting started tab, why.... <lists tabs>
... Cybelle do you have a new design for the design tab?

Cybelle: I don't have anything yet, not completed. Want to colaborate with Adrian, but will work with another recommendation. I want another designer to provide feedback. I could be myopic.

Jeanne: Who's a designer? Is Charles on the call?

Cybelle: He was a regret.

Jeanne: Jennifer who's a designer, has come to meetings sometimes. From site improve. Let me think on that.
... Hemmy Swan would be really good...
... This is all from plain language prototype <reads tabs>
... We are thinking about doing this week is anyone who comes in to work could take a sc we are going to work on.
... We will work on <reads various standards>

Cybelle: I noticed that you are starting with test, then methods then guidelines. If we go by task activity role approach, is design excluded intentially? It would be worth running this by Hemmy.
... Discuss if partial consideration of design should be considered.

Jeanne: Good point. We'll run into this when we start working on color contrast. That is a design issue. As we identify the tests to see if the user need has been met, they should include design tests.
... Even though we are starting with how to test, we should address design functions at that point.

Cybelle: Especially if costs are a consideration.

Jeanne: Do you have an example? In color contrast, where would you start?

Cybelle: I'm not sure I can answer on the spot, but I'll give some thought.

Jeanne: Because we are not actually testing content. This is a process for building a sc <it will be a guideline> from the bottom up. We will address design issues when we get to plain language prototype.
... What do other people think?

Chuck: Try it before you buy it.

Cybelle: You don't need to solve problem, but flagging it as a potential issue.

Jeanne: Let's put a note in the template in the methods to be sure to include design considerations.
... Maybe it should go with the tests?

<someone> Bar graphs and other things people don't consider because of how the sc is written (it's just about text). Content needs to consider that in their design. Need to think about how that gets delivered. Needs to go into a user need description.

s /<someone>/Jan/

Jeanne: Talking to Jan...

Jan: It will apply to interface kinds of experiences as well. To me it makes sense to put in user needs category. What do other people think?

Chuck: Let's try it in user needs.

Jeanne: Some very good comments and helpful feedback. Will report back to team on Friday.

Shawn: Great!
... Anything else to discuss before going through this week?

Jeanne: Don't think so. We just need to try it out. Glad to get input on template. That's very helpful. Glad you said something about design Cybelle, I'd hate to go through many sc and we later discover we missed some stuff.
... I'm glad we discussed.

WCAG to Silver Outline Map

<Lauriat> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aCRXrtmnSSTso-6S_IO9GQ3AKTB4FYt9k92eT_1PWX4/edit#heading=h.w4zzlepl9u8f

Shawn: Allright, let's move on.
... Next one is "on focus".
... <reads>
... I feel like it's straight forward, terminology not withstanding.

<no disagreement from participants>

Shawn: The ones following will be related.
... Next one is "on input".
... This one is extremely similar. <reads>
... That breaks down into 2 methods.
... <reads more>
... <writes up in plain language>
... Interesting that on input has exception for when warning user, but on focus does not.

Jeanne: How would they give a warning on focus?

Shawn: Same way as the other.
... For instance, if dialog pops up, and dialog says moving around will move things all over the place...

Jeanne: OK.

Shawn: Not that that's a good idea...

Jeanne: Should we add a note?

Shawn: We'll add a comment.
... Next up, it's own new thing "consistant navigation".
... <reads>
... Simplifying this in pieces... remove exception...
... <reads update>
... I can say "in multiple contexts".
... Navigational mechanisms is too narrow. I think this was written for that particular user need, how to navigate things.

Jeanne: Is there a broader user need here?

<Lauriat> Understanding doc: https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/consistent-navigation.html

Jeanne: Is it more that people need consistency? Consistency is important for screen reader users and cognative?

Shawn: The understanding docs list several things here. Cog, low/no vision. Most of these are things within a given page are located in the same place, and nav menus have same things in same order.
... I think it's more about navigational mechanisms is more narrow than it needs to be.

Jan: I agree with you. Not sure what the replacement word is, but we need to consider the different ways people interact with menu systems. It should also be consistency that access is there.
... We have other places that address other sc, but it's a part of consistent navigation, takes into consideration access need. Doesn't change from place to place in page.

Shawn: Very related is "consistent identification".
... <reads>

Jan: Methods and operation?

Shawn: I think that's important. For instance, google docs, in the toolbar there are several combo-boxes. If you hit share button it brings up dialog that also has combo boxes. Important that they work the same.
... I think there is a consistency in operation. One step beyond.
... Going to make note in methods.
... I think that's hinted at in consistent navigation, but focused on getting to a thing, not covering interactions with thing.
... Also related to input modalities.
... I'm going to grab link to that one and bring it down to this grouping.
... Seems heavily related.
... Copied in and slightly modified... <reads>

Jeanne: Could split up 1.3.1 which is currently over-stuffed.

Shawn: And 1.3.2 meaningful sequence.

Jan: And 1.3.3

Jeanne: Let's not overpack this one :-)
... We don't want people to look at a list of guidelines and miss the methods and think they understand what the guideline means and miss the details.

Cybelle: A task based assessment might be useful.

Shawn: I expect so. That consistency is kind of subjective.
... Different contexts may have different starting points. If there is some level of consistency in how you get to a given control...
... Then it doesn't matter what the order elements is on the page because there is a consistent way to navigate to it. That comes down to task based assessments.

Cybelle: Should a q about task based assessment be added to the template? Or too dependent on the sc?

Jeanne: We thought about it last night. Didn't come up with a way that wouldn't distract.
... Will make a note of it and review.

Shawn: Next up we have "change on request".
... <reads>
... This is the grouping with the first couple.
... With on focus and on input.
... Seems like the same guidance but more generalized and better worded.
... Next up we have "3.3 input assistance".
... <reads>
... 3.3.1 error identification.
... <reads>

Jeanne: This is an important one that is not done well.

Shawn: Wording is peculiar.

Jeanne: User needs are that people need error messages, particularly people with screen reader and cog.

John: Does it say in text or simple text?

Jan: Or perceives the text. This could be implemented badly and still pass.

Shawn: Peculiar is how the sentence starts. You could pass this by not automatically detecting errors.

Jeanne: People need to be guided back to the input that is in error. It is often hard to find out where the actual error is.

Jan: That's my point about perceivable. Will appear on top of the screen then disappear.

Shawn: Other ones kind of speak to this.

Jeanne: John or Cybelle (or anyone), any more comments about cognative?

John: It is important to have simple language in there. That's one of the keys.

Shawn: We could generalize that across anything involving text.

Jeanne: Jan says error message needs to be displayed at the exact point of the error.

Shawn: That's 3.3.6.
... Kind of covers that.

Cybelle: I think that if you are asking about cog with errors... sometimes it can be a minor thing that doesn't impede completion of form, person is not able to fix the error and then not be able to submit the form.
... Allow for errors to exist, or as a separate issue.

John: You brought up a good point about the issue with errors. One of the things that causes abandonment, the ability to return to the point of the error at a later point in time. May take additional time or help to get past error.
... Stuck until you get assistance. Ability to return to that spot is an important aspect. Not sure how to encorporate that, but it's a "bread crumb" aspect to be able to return to error.

Shawn: I think that's part of "re-authenticating". <reads>

John: OK.
... That makes sense. Might be good to get error in there too.
... Because errors usually demand additional assistance.

Shawn: Going to add a note. Under interuptions... <reads>. What's a good way of summing that up?

John: Could say error notification is an interruption.

Cybelle: I agree with that.

Shawn: 3.3.2 labels or instructions.
... <reads>
... How is this different from having labels on things?

Chuck: additional instructions?

Shawn: Covered, it's "labels or instructions"

<Cyborg> Thinking more about the breadcrumb aspect - something to consider frequently when it comes to cognitive disabilities. May come up again.

Jeanne: Whenever I see a wrong label I log it under this and 1.3.1 and ... missing label gets logged to three places. We could move this one.

Shawn: Identify input purpose all look like kind of the same thing. I'm going to move this up there then.

Jeanne: Level A in understanding.
... Make sure there's a user need about understanding.

<Lauriat> SC 1.3.1 Info and Relationships, SC 1.3.2 Meaningful Sequence, SC 1.3.5 Identify Input Purpose, SC 1.3.6 Identify Purpose, SC 3.3.2 Labels or Instructions

Chuck: Time check!

Cybelle: Quick comment. <referes to irc comment>
... As a framing that can be helpful for cog in a bunch of places, including personalization.

Shawn: Agreed. Thanks everyone. Have a great time at Access U. Talk to you Friday.

Jeanne: Created new folder at top level of silver, we are in phase 4!

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

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Present: Chuck Lauriat chrisloiselle Cyborg jeanne AngelaAccessForAll Jan KimD johnkirkwood
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Found Date: 14 May 2019
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