<ericP> shex to generate HTML forms

<dmitriz> ericP: I have a question about Shex

<dmitriz> shexJ specifically

<timbl> "next call 2019-03-21(?) 2pm(?) CET -- call-in details & agenda TBA" ?

Mitzi to ericP: what do you need from the group? decision? proposed spec change?

ericP: let's brainstorm, want the group to be aware of it, and how you can use it
... Ruben will probably have more answers as well

<Oshani> timbl, https://zoom.us/j/121552099

dmitriz: question: really excited to see that shex has a json-ld serialization

do you know, could you map between shexj and json-schema

ericP: limited, json-schema is more like a list of properties, you can kind of coerce it to have a closed content model, but it would be awkward

justin: the community need solutions likes shex
... ericP has been pretty active, collaborating with us on it. it's some really good work that people should look at and see if they want to use it

ericP: for instance having two addresses ends up being awkward in shacl, so shex could be useful there

shex model is simpler than shacl there

much easie rto write schemas

shacl doesn't understand a choice between something that is a conjunction (given name, family name)

Mitzi: asks if there are any final comments about this

ericP: shex evaluates all expressions in context. the extends model that they are working on right now, ... data is reusable, schemas are reusable, one schema could extend another and add extra properties to it

it's hard to see how you could do that in shacl

justin: that's actually one of the things that got me pretty excited about shex

the idea that you can have a base shape that you can extend is exciting for collaboration

<ericP> acl mext

timbl: in that case, i woudl just point out that yes, shacl is linked data, so you can link shapes together

you can have extension shapes, merge, refer to it..

you can invoke another shape kjust by using its url

becausee it's linked data, that makes it easier to work with

ericP: there is an rdf representation

all implementations of shex work with turtle as well

they conbsume shexj, shexc and shexr interchangable, there are 600 tests to make sure of that

what you can;t do with shacl is systolic/diatolic

bloodpressure with a code of one of those

to extend that, with e.g. postures, the extension mechanism of shacl would not allow that

then you get in complex situations

with restrictions it's possible, but extensions are impossible with shacl, so thta's where shex excels

Mitzi: next topic, Ruben?

RubenVerborgh: i'll try to give a brief overview

about shapes

shapes can be the new ontologies, a major driver for solid

apps will indicate with a shape on which kind of data they want to operate

the core thing about solid is about interoperability

examples: many differnet ways to organize your pods in folders

e.g. one 'photos' folder

or by event

or by project

apps nbeed to understand where they can find and write photos

of course, because it's linked data, the finding part can be solved by just following links

but what kind of links do you need to follow? on my pod for instance, photos are in subfolders of projects

shapes can be reusable

and they are going to be composable

for instance photo album has title, name, events, etc.

even if my pod is different from yours, i can refer to a photo album

and apps can understand the photo album shape regardless of pod folder structure

also: permissions

so which of the locations that habve a specific kind of shapes do you want the app to be able to access

if you data is on a slightly different shape than what the app expects, we can have tools that transform it a bit

that is another role i see for shapes

interested to hear feedback about this

<Zakim> ericP, you wanted to say that with shapes, the LOD cloud could be computed

ericP: (hard to hear)
... ok, so the linked data cloud could be arrived at statically by looking at shapes

ability to sort of derive that

having schemas of some sort, habving shapes, allows us to mabnage those interconnections

Tim: i wanted to scale back, the things that Ruben cites are funnily exciting

but down the line, on the other hand

alert queries in dynamic ways

we are defining shapes for...

the way the solid project uses shapes

is toh have standard solid shapes

please use and agree on a shape for each thing

don't just make arbitrary shapes out there

we can use shapes for different things, but it is a new world

exciting and powerful but the first thing we want from solid is interop

everybody use the same shapes please

footprint for write, shapes for read

<ericP> +1 to timbl's "don't invent a million shapes" message.

i validate my contacts every now and again

<ericP> ontology/schema reuse is hard; it's also the only way to get interop

<Mitzi> (michiel) data browser is a good starting point

Ruben: the need that i see on the long term

it makes sense to think about that,

alreadty using small versions of shapes

the stuff happening now on the front end shows a need for shapes. this is a good first step,

we might need shapes earlier than we expect

in the mid-term

Mitzi: any more comments?

Tim: rdf forms are very much like shapes

whether you use vcard:name or foaf:name

if we are going to use schema.org for example

there is a simple case where the predicate you are using is the legacy one

and a shape on the form

this is a property for this field, but hte legacy property is that

so extending the shape language a b it to allow for legacy properties, very easy to add to a form when reading, but always saving in the latest one, your data gets cleaned up

Ruben: as an example Tim used a different vocab for Likes than i did

schema.org is an option

what are we going to use?

Tim: they would like us to adopt a policy of always using shcema.org

partially a philosophical discussion, the one true namespace

dmitriz: community discussion, where should we put thos definitions?

Tim: shapes are like ontologies, you should get a piece of w3.org so that they will be there forever

one problem with that at th emoment is you can only access that with cvs (?)

we could use git instead

as thjey get more finalized, the url's shouldn't change

dmitriz: should we do this in the https://github.com/solid/vocab repo?

RubenVerborgh: people should start creating proposals

taking from what already exists

Mitzi: i'm concious of the time

justin, final point about shapes: mentoin the same thin gt hat RUben just did

we have some time slotted of with the folks in Boston, getting together tomorrow to do some concepting on the experience for that

how people who are creating shapes are able to collaborate on that and publish themn in a way also as a vehicle to discover them

you need a mechanism like shapes to facilitate interop, but also a way for people to find them, so we need to chat about that

dmitriz: DID in the solid spec

just to start the conversation, we can continue it on the mailing list after this

there is a bunch of work being done in w3c groups now on 1) decentralized identifiers and 2) verifiable credentials

we had a demo yesterday by Kayode of his implementations of VC on top of solid (https://github.com/kezike/solid-vc)

and what steps can we take to interact with the DID spec

blockchain-based or distributed-ledger based, or https-based DID method

the latter seems tailor made for Solid

let's talk about interop between DID and webid

(me:) what would the difference be between a https-did and a webid?

<timbl> Does it give uou an http: URI for the person ?

dmitriz: it has aslightly different schema

Mitzi: what would b epractical steps now?

<dmitriz> timbl: it does (give an https: url for a person).

dmitriz: thread on the mailing list, or pull request on the DID repo or spec repo

<dmitriz> or a group, or an agent

timbl: if you have a pod with a http url

DID can tell the system where your pod is

dmitriz: absolutely

it's only dealing with https, not http, but asside freom that there is a one-to-one mapping

we need to settle on a triple in the profile

from webid to DID and from DID to webid

justinwb: tyou mention where it's compatible. first of all, i support that

but where would it be fundamentally incompatible? if any?

dmitriz: i don't see any such spots

we would need to add support for did to for example rdflib

and same on the DID side

but no philosophical incompatibilities

so let's say we go to the complete extreme, and decide we want to use DIDs now

what would that migration look like?

dmitriz: the migration script to generate a DID doc from a webid profile, might be generate a couple more keypairs, but other than that trivial

justinwb: ok, so then what would the middle ground look elike, living in both worlds

you may have a case where oyu sometimes use one and sometimes the other

dmitriz: yes but we would lean ont he discovery process

so you can discover the DID when logged in with webid, and v.v.

Mitzi: next point is "the default"

one of the criticisms of solid is tha twe rely on consent, and certain tihings should never be possible

i'm interested in both the minimum amount of data you share, but also in a maximum

not to get ahead of those questions,

area there any objections to starting a new repo

to go through the points where the default would be relevant

and go through the details of that for those

Tim: who has written the book?

Mitzi: can't pronounce her name, but she's Turkish

TIm: she has proposed ..

she's looking to build a world with very minimum sharing

in solid you're able to share always with particular people you care about

if she describes a way for us to go, i'd like to see it defined more clearly

Mitzi: yes, i've reached out to her to see if we can come to some sort of practical solution to this critique, and build an answer

any objections to starting this?

(none_)

ok, wonderful! i'll let you know which steps i take

we really have quite full agenda's

perhaps we need to swith to weekly

<dmitriz> +1 to weekly

(me:) weekly works differntly than monthly, the group will be smaller and more involved

Mitzi: what if we alternate between weeks where we talk about spec aond ones where we talk about other topics

justin: but we could also just go three weeks in a row on a specific topic

we need a fair system for prioritizing backlog

(me:) let's expand the agenda in the weekly announcement, then people can decide whether they show up or skip

Mitzi: solid world is a (moderate) success

dmitriz and i have been talking about doing a podcast

a 20 minute recording about some of these discussions

of course, the proof is in the pudding

any thoughts about creating solid world podcasts?

<justinwb> +1 to podcast

objectiosn, commenbts?

final chance...

we've reacht the end of our time

rest of items will roll over to next week agenda

any final comments?

ok, see you next week!

RubenVerborgh: you know how to tell Zakim or RRSAgent to draft notes?

ericP: do you know?

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