https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wRAViPfAJ4Ytqc71tGZp6gU07HNd2QQaNgtJsog-D90/edit?usp=sharing
Working process: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/WCAG_2.2_working_process SC acceptance criteria: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/WCAG_2.2_Success_criteria_acceptance_requirements
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MWdfQN3IhYx7sPexyGbgtHAYWY3HAJiYwVyrjw_MfCE/edit?usp=sharing
Kim – template
Kathy: looking at success criteria for 2.2, go through Google Docs spreadsheet to see levels and finalize if this is going to be a 2.2
Kathy: level – I put in my initial thoughts but I wanted to have a discussion. I have it at AA o right now
Chris: AA just because there's some potential for breaking this – I think AA is good
Detlev: exception for unstyled
Kathy: there's nothing natively
in HTML that controls the spacing between the elements all you
have is the actual size of the control
... typically people put non-breaking space between controls –
how much pixels or between the nonbreaking space – anybody
know?
Chris: it's at the very least defined by the font
Detlev: content which is semantically marked up – there's a row of buttons. It sits there there's no separation between them. It's probably rare because visually it would look odd.
Kathy: found its point 4 EMs, so
if you don't style anything that's eight pixels with a
nonbreaking space
... if you do absolutely no styling is going to default to the
browser font which is .4 EMs
... it seems like if we say set 8 CSS pixels we might have
enough, that would involve a nonbreaking space between
elements
Detlev: where there is unstyled content there may not be a nonbreaking space. Might get pushback. We could do an exception for unstyled native stuff if that comes up
Kathy: it's just adding a space between elements
Jake: are we just talking about a
new breaking space between links for example. Three, maybe four
pixels with a nonbreaking space between it
... nonbreaking space in between two buttons
Kathy: maybe we need to research more
Detlev: if there was such an exception it wouldn't do much harm because it wouldn't be applicable to very much competent
Kathy: if we going to end up having the same list of exceptions as target size I see very little value in pushing this through. If we have all the same exceptions as target size why not just you target size?
Detlev: this accounts for the many cases where people want to use smaller controls. Example sorting arrows and tables, pixels are much smaller normally than 44 x 44. People want to continue to use them without taking up a lot of space so you can easily create enough distance between those controls to make sure that you can hit them.
Chris: if there's distance between those controls and there's a div that's creating that difference. The image doesn't have to be the thing that's clickable. So the catch points were not accomplishing anything.
Detlev: but you would prevent people putting tiny controls close to each other like in toolbars
Chris: but if you have to have a minimum size you can't do that
Detlev: toolbar with controls, row of icons, you would just need to make sure that the distance between icons keeps that minimum distance but you can still keep it a very narrow strip of controls, for example. You would need the full 44 x 44. So that could accomplish what a designer wants – I don't think it's the same as putting a div around it
Kathy: if we going to do that we might as well put all four exceptions in their the same as target size
Detlev: I don't think it will cause much harm to do that. Well, radio buttons will be the most frequent case where you have tiny things
Jake: we still want spacing no
matter how the size is determined
... also another advantage – when we talk about touch targets,
problem with list of links. Now if links are just defaults at
least four pixels between them so they are better usable on
smaller devices. That's another plus
... I also mentioned last time when we have the eight pixel
distance between touch targets as AA we also promote
automatically to make, for instance navigation targets at least
44 because most of the time you don't want a pixels between.so
you would choose 44 x 44
Detlev: why would it not be relevant
Jake: if a control is left at 44 x 44 then we don't care about controls which are less because they automatically if you leave them default you need to add a pixels between them
Detlev: 44 x 44 is AAA Criteria
Jake: if size is not the problem but we need spacing isn't that what we want. Doesn't matter if you make your own button or if you use a default button
Detlev: I think that requirement is sensible and could apply to native controls just as well
Jake: if you don't style your
native controls and even if they are not 44 x 44 then at least
make sure there is space between. That's not the same as touch
target where if you don't we don't like it, but it's the
exception
... if we don't do that and say the spacing of the target is
determined by the user agent – does it have to be size and
spacing is it always a combination
... example List and links between them
Detlev: most likely cases
footnote numbers at the end of a sentence they often get very
close. That would be covered by the in-line exception
... so the user agent control one could be taken out maybe
Kathy: I didn't want it in there – I'm fine to be overruled to say that it's not very likely. I also think that spacing when you don't have anything styled is going to be eight pixels. That may not come up
Detlev: I think we can probably
take out the user engine control exception. Because we are
basically mandating make sure there is some space between
things if you have a list of links. It couldn't be
unstyled
... that could mean that if you have a list of links you'd have
to apply style to create that space
... unordered list of links, don't style it than that would be
less than eight pixels distance between them. So we are
mandating CSS
Jake: yes, that's the way to
create that distance
... go back to touch targets – it doesn't matter if the user
agent or not, if they are too small we want more space between
them
... if default targets not enough that's the core cause of why
we even talk about this
Detlev: if we want to have the
possibility to keep unstyled text, say unordered list of links
and text somewhere that should be fine because users can then
zoom in and create the target size by zooming in, for example.
That could be an argument
... argument about unstyled controls or native exception
somehow
... I think we could leave it the way it is right now and if
that comes up in discussions and we get this additional
requirement it won't do much harm because it's fairly rare
anyway
Kathy: we can go with it like
this and take the feedback and change it if needed
... is everybody good with level AA
Jake: something else – measuring
the distance and it is eight when I remove everything and just
use the default blank page
... with the default 16 font size
General agreement as AA
Kathy: we can put this in the SC template and fill in the rest of the details on that
Kathy: I suggested a single-A
level for this
... also do you think we should change the wording
... my concern with this is if you have something in portrait
mode you have a smaller size so that functionality may be
available on the site. It might not be available on that page
itself. You might have a separate page to do that function and
were not being clear as to what it actually means to be
available
... does that mean we should change the success criteria or if
it's fine we can just clarify that in understanding. But that's
BUS for me and that one
... But that's ambiguous for me on that one
Detlev: do we really need an additional success criteria beyond orientation and reflow
Jake: we do cover reflow but in
this case it was not about re-flowing. Just totally different
content is shown in landscape and portrait. That's not
covered.
... I've seen it many times
... stock with a lot of options to show what stock does –
options are only available in landscape mode. A lot of the
options not possible without landscape view. A lot of websites
like that – they add functionality when in landscape because
there's more space
Detlev: if you have a narrow
portrait view it's not easy fit the stuff in. Maybe a chart
with overlays. Cases where it's difficult or impossible to
build the same kind of information into the display. You may
find it further down but then the link gets lost. Maybe
something hovering over a particular bit of the graph
... we might be pushing things too far to say both have to be
equivalent. But maybe we should try its laudable but I don't
think it will be easy in all situations
Jake: if you have another page to
do that information is not a problem. It's only a problem if
it's just not available for people
... when your iPad is mounted on your wheelchair in portrait
mode
Detlev: I totally get the point and think it's a good criteria I just anticipate there will be a lot of pushback. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try
Kathy: can we actually test this.
Do we know what the width of portrait and landscape motives? I
can change my desktop in the landscape and portrait mode, my
phone, my tablet. There are varying different widths and
heights. Is this something that we could actually test?
... if we put out something that says all functionality must be
available in both landscape and portrait mode. Or we rewrite it
and say information has to be presented without loss of
functionality in landscape or portrait mode, what do we define
as landscape or portrait mode
Detlev: we have a fixed measure already in reflow. If anything it would be a requirement that if the viewport is 320 the information would still be there.
Kathy: in reflow we say content can be presented without loss of information or functionality
Jake: landscape or portrait is just fixed according to the operating system where you say this is landscape or portrait.
Detlev: triggered on a big screen?
Kathy: you have different widths
of your screen. In portrait mode your browser with changes if
you have it maximized to the window
... for responsive and almost seems like this would already be
covered under 1.4.10 reflow. Where I see the gaps right now
between landscape and portrait mode is where we have an
adaptive layout not a responsive layout. So if we have an
adaptive layout where we are looking at the screen width there
might be differences.
... the reflow one is geared toward more responsive layouts
Jake: example responsive version where both layouts all functionality – shows it's a choice
Detlev: for example rivals on airport website. On your mobile you get a simplified list of arrivals. Usability advantages of not cluttering the screen with other things. Would you meet this requirement when you then have on the bottom of the screen abutting go to desktop version and you get a non-reflowable kind of desktop version?
Jake: I'm wondering if we can come up with examples where you can just not apply the same kind of functionality
Detlev: if you want to have links
to everything that you might have on the desktop version where
you see the arrivals, navigation, other stuff you would need to
put controls on a screen that would mean you would take screen
real estate so it becomes less usable for that targeted purpose
of just saying when you're planes going to land. There are
arguments in the usability community – the benefits of having
alternative versions for different types [CUT]
... and screenreader states
Jake: going back to people who
are not able to turn the devices are not able to use
functionalities. Stock applications or it is almost essential
when you use that product more intensely than just buying
something and looking at where it is at. If you're buying,
selling looking at five minutes ago, 10 minutes ago, options.
People are excluded from using a lot of applications. There
lots of websites out there that do not provide the same kind of
fun[CUT]
... not using reflow, but just showing a completely different
functionality. Two different pages, two different views.
Detlev: in my view you would be
able to meet that success criteria if you had the link to a
desktop version. Having said that the desktop version if it's
going to be a a conforming alternative, so it would have to
reflow on that narrow viewport.
... but at least you would get the full version which has all
the options that you have on the desktop version
... we're not talking about native, the situation would be
different for native. There many applications where you can't
change orientation and then get another view. It's just fixed
on the phone you just have the portrait review and that's
it
Jake: why don't we do an agnostic version – same for native and web
Detlev: in my experience you're talking about 90% of native applications which don't change when you change orientations so you're up against a brick wall. For native I think this won't work for the moment
Kathy: if you look at the WCAG to
ICT documentation you could say that applies to mobile app. But
written for web, and doing the same thing for 2.2.
... I don't see where there's really a difference but we are
focused on web content.
... I put two options in the Google doc for this success
criteria if we feel we want to keep it in
... preferences?
... the first one is worded more like WCAG 2.1 standards,
content on the page, versus all functionality – just a
different way of presenting
Jake: the second one sounds more
like plain language
... otherwise equal in wording
Detlev: do we have landscape and
portrait in the glossary right now?
... I think the argument will be on the desktop it doesn't
trigger reorienting
... Airport example, it would probably look at the viewport
rather than checking whether it's CSS orientation is landscape
or portrait but I'm not sure – would be worth finding out
Kathy: display orientation such
as portrait or landscape – we probably want to stick with the
same terminology
... the orientation one got in at AA
Detlev: we can look at examples were there is a reduced view and narrow viewport – what is it triggered by
Kathy: in both of those examples
if we magnify to 400%, that's where were still seeing the issue
with portrait and landscape mode?
... so those two scenarios are not covered by reflow?
... in those scenarios if we satisfied reflow would we still
have a problem going to portrait/landscape
Jake: completely different pages,
and not that there was reflow without some functionality lost –
just two different designs to different functionalities
... that is why we came up with this does not fit in reflow.
It's also for PDFs
Detlev: checking two airport sites – no difference turning phone. Not sure if it's different on desktop. We need to collect some examples and find some cases where that is independent of reflow
Kathy: which level
Jake: it feels like it should be A, but maybe when you consider the work needed, maybe AA would be a better fit. But if you are preventing people from using core functionality I would say A. Maybe we can start with Alpha.
Kathy: do we want this to say content and functionality?
Jake yes
Kim +1
Kathy: Jake, if you can find some examples that would be good – we need to see what is covered under reflow
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.154 of Date: 2018/09/25 16:35:56 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: Irssi_ISO8601_Log_Text_Format (score 1.00) Default Present: KimPatch, JakeAbma, Kathy, shadi, MarcJohlic, Detlev, Chris Present: KimPatch JakeAbma Kathy shadi MarcJohlic Detlev Chris No ScribeNick specified. Guessing ScribeNick: KimPatch Inferring Scribes: KimPatch Found Date: 07 Feb 2019 People with action items: WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option. WARNING: IRC log location not specified! (You can ignore this warning if you do not want the generated minutes to contain a link to the original IRC log.)[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]