Silver Community Group Teleconference

27 Nov 2018


jeanne, Jennison, Charles, Makoto, KimD, AngelaAccessForAll, kirkwood, Shawn
Shawn, jeanne


Last weeks work was in this document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aBoQ1HDindVnFk_7Ljp-whpK3zAiqAdgJxsgpqsNpgU/edit#heading=h.imldn9ebvi3e

Jeanne: This is a brainstorming document
... I created a new document for the alt text example https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IK83Gfxz01zFWgNtaCWCL0LeBqhu9DudyWp_IwovWc0/edit

Auto-WCAG rule: Image has an accessible name https://auto-wcag.github.io/auto-wcag/rules/SC1-1-1-image-has-name.html

Jeanne: talking about Auto-WCAG test.

Charles: When governance overlaps with scale, it becomes unmanagable to put them into the guidance.
... this example is very specific to HTML
... if we followed a format like this we wouldn't be able to keep up with the scale.

Jeanne: This would be a part of a method

Charles: But this would proliferate the Methods

Shawn: This is what we are trying to work out with this prototype. We would want to have Methods be higher level than the tests. So we wouldn't want to have a comprehensive list of all the ways we can meet this particular guideline.

Jeanne: David had an interesting idea that we could write Methods for existing technology, and then write one Method for for new technology that is more like a success criterion.

Shawn: I disagree. That is just moving success criteria to the Methods level. The user need is in the Guideline, and the person who is creating a new method has to have their own burden of proof that they satisfy the user need.

[some back and forth about this concept]

Shawn: for the image alt text example
... the Google docs document uses images, it doesn't use an <img> tag. Everyone has access to the alternative text, but it isn't following any method normally used.

Charles: So if this example isn't in a Method, how do they claim it without a catch-all Method.

Shawn: A catch-all Method would perpetuate that the problem we have today. The onus is on the organization that uses this new Method.

Charles: So how would they prove it?

Shawn: If it is in a VPAT, they would say that they did something different and document it. They can write it in their documentation. If it is a legal case, they would have to put it in the legal document. What they do, depends on the context.

Charles: Do they ever get incorporated back into the guidance?

Shawn: Sometimes. In this example it would not, because the Google docs document is a proprietary technology that others don't use. If someone came up with an example that is a new way to add an image in HTML, then it would be included in the Silver Methods.

Jennison: I like the idea of keeping it open, but what would happen if someone claimed conformance and someone else thought it would not be, what do we do?

Shawn: We would have to sort it out. The Method might be valid, but we wouldn't want to include it. It could also be duking it out in court. Or it gets worked out in the accessibility community

Jeanne: I would like (down the road) to empower the accessibility community to vote new Methods up and down and have them work out what is best.

Shawn: That would be a valuable way to manage the scaling

Charles: What about using a picture without an image element? Like a Kiosk

Shawn: If they create a new kiosk OS that has a different lamguage, then they still have to meet the user need.
... we can't expect people in the working group to be expert in so many technologies

Charles: Doesn't this raise the problem that Wilco raised about the cost of testing Silver?

Shawn: Only for new technologies that aren't using existing Methods.
... that wouldn't mandate more work and cost, but it would allow them to create new methods if they had a reason to do it.


Jeanne: What I wanted to accomplish by bringing up the example of the ACT rule, is that the more granualar the tests are --- not the Methods -- the better we can explore the edge cases. That helps us write better Methods and Guidelines, which helps keep the cost down.

charles: I am concerned about the number of tests, and needing to number them.

Shawn: I share your concern. Keeping it so it isn't 100 Methods for a given piece of guidance.
... I have less of a clear image in my mind about the tests
... the tests are hierarchical, and there are a lot of them.
... I don't have a good answer for that yet.
... I want to get more information as we work through the examples.

Jeanne: I would assume that we are not going to give automated test information to any user who isn't working on automated tests?

Shawn: We need to figure out the level testing that we have for each Method. We want it to be concrete enough to be useful.

Charles: granular is more consumable, it is the scale that concerns me.

Jennsion: this discussion is about how to display it -- the presentation of it all. We don't want to overwhelm people with information, but we want to give people what they want in chunks or drill down.

Shawn: we need to think about how we want to give them the information and how they will find it.

Jeanne: Please take a look at the Conformance Example of Images need Alternative text https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IK83Gfxz01zFWgNtaCWCL0LeBqhu9DudyWp_IwovWc0/edit#
... and start entering your ideas and thoughts for tests.

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

[End of minutes]

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Present: jeanne Jennison Charles Makoto KimD AngelaAccessForAll kirkwood Shawn
Regrets: Luis
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