Brent: Link in the agenda is to
Understanding Docs work in progress, almost ready to send to AG. We have the
process down and wanted everyone to know about the meeting at
TPAC with AG. They had some concerns about changing key words.
We tried to reassure them. Will now start passing these along
to AG for their editor's discretion to make the Docs more
understandable.
... through Sept and Oct we were perfecting the process and
hoping to kick hard through the next 13 weeks to meet a goal of
completion by the end of March/early April. Any questions or
comments?
... and remember that you can always jump in and help - the
instructions are always current in W4TW.
Brent: It seems that the Thursday evening/early Friday morning meeting gets cancelled too often. This is often due to the fact that the Europeans who often lead the projects are not able to join due to it being the middle of the night for them. ... We wanted to give consideration that Eric and Shadi and others on the active editor team are often not able to join in the middle of the night. Typically that means we don't have significant things to discuss and decide. It comes up because the upcoming WAI-Guide project will also be led by Europeans and will be a large part of the work we do.
<Andrew> Melbourne/Perth/London - https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingtime.html?day=9&month=11&year=2018&p1=152&p2=136&p3=196&iv=0
Sharron: Open the floor for ideas.
Amanda: I have recently joined in to AG they meet at 9 am London time/5 pm Perth time. That works well for me
Andrew: That would be 8 pm in Melbourne and Syndney and much more workable especially if not on Friday.
<Andrew> adding in Austin - https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingtime.html?iso=20181109&p1=152&p2=136&p3=196&p4=24
Amanda: 3 pm Perth time would be 7 am London but still ridiculously middle of the night for North America.
Lewis: Maybe the reason we have heavier participation in North America is how the meetings are scheduled.
Brent: Yes the reason we changed the schedule was to try to encourage Pacific participation. I remember you and Vivienne and I spoke about this and you said it was hard to go to meetings at night but especially hard on Friday night. So if we held the meeting on another day, would it be easier?
Amanda: It would be about 8 for Perth but 11 for Melbourne/Sydney
<Andrew> adding in Boston - https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingtime.html?iso=20181109&p1=152&p2=136&p3=196&p4=24&p5=43
Amanda: personally I could make that work if not on the weekend but not sure it would work for Sydney.
Andrew: Here is a look at what that yould mean and during the week 12:30 am just would not work.
Sharron: may just need to get more info from editors at the planning meeting so that we are prepared to present more completely.
Brent: Yes, even if we need to turn the recording on so the editors can listen to discussion later then we would be able to be the time translator. Otherwise, I don't see how to make it work for all time zones. Will have to ask the editors to plan ahead a bit more to bring solid work to both meetings.
Andrew: Only other option would be for Europe to meet with Pacific group at a time inconvenient for North America.
Amanda: I am happy to work around as long as it is reasonable.
Shawn: has attendance been consistent?
Amanda: It was at first and may have fallen off a bit, may not have had much Paciifc attendence in the winter.
Brent: Then would Eric as substitute team contact run the meeting?
Shawn: We need representation outside of North America. Maybe we should try time that works good in Europe and Asia Pacific. (esp given European editors coming up). ... Between Eric and Shadi they certainly could, chairs would need to be involved in planning. Seems most important to have meetings during the times/regions that we are trying to encourage more participation.
Brent: I think it could increase
participation in these time zones if the meetings were more
conveneint to attend there.
... is there any opposition to trying that? Any concerns?
Sharron: Only the fear that we have more instances when no one shows up. But no opporsition to giving it a try and seeing what is the response.
Brent: So Amanda and Andrew what would be the best time?
Andrew: 9 am London time works out to 5 pm and 8 pm for current Australian participants.
<shawn> AG is 9am London / 5pm Perth Thursday
Brent: Would you prefer this to be on Thursday so you are not having to stay
... then I propose we reach out to Shadi and Eric, looping in the Australia group and figure out which day/week is best for all.
<Andrew> Thursday early evening is good - better than Friday evening
<shawn> [ Shawn says we probably won't have content from Europe until after January. ]
Brent: I hesitate ot move things around until we have regular content. Will be gathering feedback to get a clear focus on what we hould do.
<Andrew> so, lets leave the current arrangement in place until end of year - rearrange in start of 2019
<shawn> +1
Brent: Survey closed on Tueday and I have re-opened it for one person so it is re-opened at this time.
Andrew: Thank you for reopening the survey. I was able to complete.
<shawn> [ Shawn notes that Howard added comments to the survey, too. ]
Sharron: Don't have a lot to say except thank you to everyone. It has been a long effort, but we made a substantial change to the tone and approach. There was so much support going through this I am very grateful to everyone for their careful reading and patience in working out the knots.
<Andrew> new version is great; big thanks to Sharron :)
Sharron: The resource is now in
really good alignment with other things that we have going on
right now.
... Unresolved issue is the People First language. I made some
changes to some areas, others have not been made. Andrew raised the issue and we worked it out through GitHub.
... Some groups/organizations are strongly opposed to
people-first language, especially the NFB in the US. Also common usage in the UK does not require people first.
Shawn: Years ago we actively
chose people-first language. Now there are many who choose not
to use people-first language.
... The question comes down to should we change the WAI style
guide. Do our due diligence of all the issues around this
sensitive topic. Then make the change to the style guide before
we start changing our resource language.
Sharron: It is hard for me to agree to hold the publication of this again. I strongly feel that we have in fact done due diligence and beyond in consideration of the issue. Would rather publish and see if we receive feedback that a change is needed.
<Sharron> In 1993, the National Federation of the Blind adopted a resolution condemning people-first language. The resolution dismissed the notion that "the word 'person' must invariably precede the word 'blind' to emphasize the fact that a blind person is first and foremost a person" as "totally unacceptable and pernicious" and resulting in the exact opposite of its purported aim, since "it is overly defensive, implies shame instead of true equality, and portrays the blind as touchy and belligerent". (Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People-first_language#cite_ref-21)
Andrew: In some cases not using
the people-first language makes the content flow better.
... If a case study is written, we should not change it.
... Personally I would like to continue to use people-first language as the standard for our resources.
<Sharron> I see no mention of people first in the W3C style guide: https://w3c.github.io/manual-of-style/
Amanda: It is not consistant where it is used and is not used. I am very much in favor of pointing to our considerations and research of which way we decide to go, so that we can point people to that when they have questions.
<shawn> +1 to pointing to doc that says we looked into this issue and this is what we decided
Sharron: Who is going to write up the research, decision we have made. Where is it going to reside?
... Are you proposing to delay the publication of the Business
Case until we have something to point to about the research and
style guide?
Amanda: I do not believe that it should delay publication. If questions come up we can answer the questions directly until we have the documentation/statement explaining the reasoning.
<Laura> +1 to publish now
<Howard> +1 to publish now
<Sharron> +1
<Howard> my comments were mostly positive feedback and any suggested changes were minor.
Brent: The issue is that in the
Business case there are instances where we refer to "blind
people" etc, the WAI style guide says we used people first
language. Some are advocating that if we do not do that we should have a document in place before we publish it. Others think we should publish and
let the documentation catch up later.
... is that right/
... are there any objections to having it publish
now?
... what is the reason why we would not publish now and let the
documentation catch up?
... taking off my chair's hat, let's just publish and see what comments might come in and respond there.
Shawn: People might rake us over the goals on social media and we would never see it.
Sharron: My point is that I have never heard the style guide required or even referenced as we near publication. If it was going to be invoked it should have been more timely.
Andrew: I accepted Sharron's rationale, if not 100% comfortable based on how people with disabilities is always used and there is the occasional blind student, blind customer, etc. We need a conssitent approach going forward.
Shawn: I think our style should be that we use either based on the fact that people prefer
different useages.
... I agree with the decision on that.
Brent: How long to put the rationale into the style guide?
Shawn: depends, to write up *soemthing* is less than an hour and that might be enough to publish with a place to point people to if they raise objections.
<shawn> ...and then we keep filling it in and getting buy-in
Brent: My preference is to do it this way.
Andrew: So we can publish as it is now and if/when we are questioned, we will have a note in the style guide to justify the choices we made.
Brent: Yes, that is a good plan.
Shawn: Can you add a question on the survey to ask if people have examples of what people around the world prefer in terms of people first language?
Brent: When will you work on the
style guide language?
... can you help me with that Shawn?
Shawn: Not sure. I am traveling tomorrow.
Shawn:We have
talked about it for a couple of weeks there is a proposal for
the user interface. Go to the agenda, Survey q9
...there is a link
to the mockup and a link to the proposal. If you have any
questions or anything that needs review, let me know. I
encourage you to look at that document and make sure you have the background and put comments on top of that. Any questions
about what is there?
...do you have the
information you need to do the review.
Brent:Shawn the question you are asking is just to make sure that everyone has the info they need to do the review?
Shawn: Yes, does anyone have questions about what to review, how to look at this, if the survey question makes sense?
<Lewis> no comments or questions
Brent: Any comments or questions from anyone else?
<Andrew> no questions from me
<Howard> not from me
<Laura> no questions
Shawn: W3c Comm and Internationalization are all looking at it, so we want to give everyone plenty of time.So the survey will close but comments are accepted for another week.
Brent: OK sounds good, if there are not other comments, we can move along.
Brent: There is a link in the
agenda for record keeping and allow people to share what tehy
have done.
... Shawn can you quickly go through the plan and process and
timeline so we can consider how to support it?
Shawn: The basics are to do a WAI-IG and the new WAI-Announce, a tweet, a home page RS feed announcement, a blog post occasionally and sometimes more.
Brent: In the WAI-Coordination
call they were excited about pubication of these resources, I expect they will get a lot of
traction.
... if it is published tomorrow the outreach will go out next
week?
Shawn: no,no, no typically we do it at the time of publication. We often do previews, draft messages to be reviewed by usually chairs and WAI team. So I was thinking that people would want to think about what to do now, do we just wing something or share ideas or what to do given that we did not do the prep?
Brent: Are there any specific tones that we should work into the language?
... I think the four key indicators would be good in the
announcement since it captures the essence of the resource
<shawn> +1 for presenting on the business case now
Andrew: +1 we want to pick up those four key themes in the announcement, especially the first three are different from any previous messaging.
Brent: Yes the fact that these are not typically used to descibe any of our resources
Shawn: What do you mean?
Brent: We don't ususally talk
about WAI resources driving innovation, enhancing your brand.
It is going to be unusual and really fun.
... other ideas?
<Howard> not me
<shawn> example of simple WAI IG announcement: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ig/2017OctDec/0215.html
<Laura> I was just going to say to use the line "Accessibility is good for business
<shawn> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ig/2017AprJun/0195.html
Shawn: UNless people object, thsoe four points should be in the email as well.
Brent: and make it more of a marketing slant
Shawn: Always want to encourage everyone to take the message and retweet in ways that resonate with your own tone and audience.
Laura: That line sounds good to me I think that and the 4 points will get people's attention even if they are aware of the previous BCase.
Brent: Do we have a LInkedIn connection?
Shawn: Not that I directly work
with.
... maybe to FB.
Brent: Once these phrases hit linkedIn they will get good traction, so those of us who use linked in should promote it.
Brent: What messaging there?
<Brent> https://w3c.github.io/wai-statements/planning/statements/
Andrew: The question for why it is important and should be emphasized.
Brent: Yes key into better
reasons why than simply the legal liability.
... touching on why to provide and what to include.
Shawn: Shadi has outrech planning going on for outreach on the Statements,
Brent: And coming up, we will
check in and see what people have actually done during the
outreach part of the meetings
... will get the survey out, update W4TW, get the work updated
on the Understanding. Thansk for everyone to come at this
unusual time and am excited about looking for a new time and
getting that going.
... thanks everyone and see you next week.