Silver TPAC Meeting Day 1

22 Oct 2018


Charles, jeanne, anne_thyme, Wilco, audrey, RedRoxProjects_, shawn
Shawn, jeanne


[reviewing slides] and introduction to Silver for observers

<mikeCrabb> Hi, does anyone know what the call in details are for the TPAC meeting today?

<Lauriat> Presentation, starting at Slide 22: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1V_nYD27N6kx8gRha0rrdQK8aKyvg7kKXu6rs44We7IU/edit#slide=id.g44e0248110_0_0

<Charles> I have a meeting conflict for a while, so I am going to leave the audio on low in the background and keep IRC open. Lurking mode.

[conversation about ways that SIlver can include tests

Anne: ACT is moving away from tell people a test procedure and more about the rules for what the results of the test should be.

Amy: When we were doing the framework for digital musical instruments, we talked about functional needs -- that keeps people from only doing the items that are only for blind people.

Anne: The Monitoring decision was divided into seven functional disability areas.

Audrey: I disagree with splitting it by dividing it by disability or functional disability. People were asking what disabilities have a greater priority than other disabilities.

Amy: Accessibility has to be built in, rather than something bolted on. WHen you design with priorities for disabilities (A, AA, AAA) then it encourages accessibility bolted on at the end.
... be aware that you have to be able to disable motion, because people forget about this.

<Charles> wherever possible, we have tried to avoid naming a disability or disability category. instead, the hope is to reference the human need, like: “cannot see”. where necessary, the human needs combined, like “cannot see or hear”


THis is the write up on usability testing from the Silver Design Sprint

Amy: I used a scale for testing where if you drop it 10 times and it doesn't break, it scores more highly than something you drop once and it breaks.

Shawn: Did I do it well enough that I can move on? through the range of "I want my users to have an awesome experience"
... We are moving toward a task basis. We may have to rewrite everything to go there, to avoid the problem of having to do usability testing of every component. But today we have component level testing. We have to bridge the gap.
... Do we keep an element-focused conformance model, or do we rewrite everything to be task-based and let go of all the valuable existing guidance we have? I hope we can find a way to bridge this and not have to go to one extreme or another.
... the way we do it today is run the AXE library so that we get feedback at each step of the task.

Anne: But what about the other 10,000 pages? You can test a maximum of 10 tasks.
... I want to see both -- people should also get points from passing an automated test of their 10k pages

Wilco: What is the problem we are trying to solve?

Shawn: Sites that have technical conformance but users with disabilities can't use them.

Anne: Will every task failure in a usability test be a violation?

Shawn: In the example we did at the Design Sprint, if it doesn't work for every user, then it would be more of a usability issue. I run into it often where a reported bug turns out to be a usability issue.

Anne: I worry that it will be watered down because we are doing usability. If the boundaries are not clear, then it will be a problem.
... I am worried about blurred lines.

back to conformance

Wilco: how do you expect this to work?

jeanne: we expect to have guideline for alt text. THen there would be methods that would have test results.

Wilco: Writing test results will be harder than writing procedures

Shawn: Example of alt text in Google docs which doesn't use a DOM that there are existing Techniques for.

Wilco: Alt text, for graphics, does it have an accessible name?

rrsgent, make minutes

Wilco: ACT rules format, we know how to write a rule and what it means

After the break, we want to see some of the ACT rules.

ACT Rules

<Wilco> https://w3c.github.io/wcag-act/act-rules-format.html

WIlco: Section 4 describes rules
... atomic rules that test specific parts of a web page
... composite rules that combine atomic rules
... accessibility requirements are for organizations that have to follow internal or local standards.
... In Silver, passing a rule might give you points. Mroe points at 100% and maybe less for partials conformance.
... aspects under test are things that you would have to test

Shawn: Do you include specific rules from other specifications in these rules?

Wilco: You have to declare your sources. If you don't have access to particular tools or if you are functionally disabled, you may not be able to do this test.

Shawn: The HTML spec requires an alt attribute, the ARIA spec has a role of menu and it can only have child elements (for example), so it doesn't need to be in the accessibility guidelines.
... Did you code it correctly?

Wilco: We don't do that.

Anne: We are discussing whether we should spellcheck for ARIA?

Wilco: When you develop a product, you should specify the accessibility for that platform

Shawn: We want to have the company developing the platform specify as much of the accessibility as possible and we should reference it.

Wilco: we want to test by a procedureal system and not a hierarchical system, which is why we don't have a composite of composites
... so a common use is that people set up either/or atomic rules and the composite rule is if it passes either or, it passes.
... applicability MUST be described objectively, unambiguously and in plain language

Anne: We prioritize, unambiguous and link out to definitions.

Wilco: We say "visible" and link to a very specific definition of "visible"
... because it is objective doesn't necessarily mean it is is automatable.
... what you should look at is objective, but the purpose of the element may be subjective
... all of the expectations must be true
... the logic of the expectation of composite rules must be spelled out.
... rules always have edge cases. The edge cases have to be included in the rules, so the rule may not be 100% accurate, and that's ok in many cases. It needs to be transparent. '
... if there are major accessibility support concerns, that should be included in the rule.

Shawn: How do you keep it up to date?

Wilco: Rules get out of date. THey are informative so they can be updated.
... I have been looking at a project that looks at tests that are being run actively on assistive technology..

Shawn: Can you link to the bugs?
... that would flag it so that it can be specific, targeted and can have a bug filed against it.

Wilco: Test cases
... accuracy. Accuracy is difficult, because things change all the time.

WIlco shows rule from auto-wcag.github.io for 4.1.2

Jeanne asks if we can link to it in our Silver demo.

Wilco: yes

Shawn: How do you score it?

Wilco: It maps to WCAG, how you score it is up to you. There are different reporting systems. Most of the rules only tell you if you fail, they don't tell you if you passed.

Shawn: How to write a rule that requires human judgement?

Wilco: Mostly we don't, but one person is working on a rule that has a human judgement.


Wilco: WE have to make the problems as small as we can get them, and then resolve the interpretations.

Anne: One of the rules was written by the Norwegian government agency, and then started assessing fines for the organizations that didn't comply.


Wilco: Over lunch I talked about adding methods that could incur points for using accessible content management systems and IDE.
... If you can encourage browser vendors to make focus visible or to override the problems with single key shortcuts, then shift responsibility away from authors and toward user agents and AT.

Title: SIlver TPAC Meeting Day 1

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

[End of minutes]

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Present: Charles jeanne anne_thyme Wilco audrey RedRoxProjects_ shawn
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