<MichaelC> present_
<scribe> scribe: MarkMcCarthy
jn: reminder, TPAC agenda is
needing done, coming up soon!
... planning to send confirmations by end of next week
jn: not sure of many updates for charter status, people working on i
mc: had a phone conversation with
commentors, resulting in not huge edits
... hopefully gets resolved in some way soon
jn: current one expires oct 31, no extensions at the moment, work on it if need be
jn: cutoff date for aria 1.2 changes (current working draft ) due tomorrow
cm: so many things depend on generic, i wonder if it's a good idea to add right now
jn: until it's in, we won't have
done the work to get wider comment
... let's get something in to be as sure as we can
cm: ok, we probably should make sure of whether we're doing generic or none
jn: we'll discuss that
shortly
... might be that we think we're ready, but may not have
everything 100%, so this will help
joanie: good news, i propose that
we issue a CfC this afternoon to transition accname. will
continue working on implementation reports and bugs
... if CfC passes, we should be able to move on
... those following along know about the case at hand, turns
out to be an edge case
... we have a problem to fix in 1.2 to make it clearer what the
answer to that case should be
... only gecko does what bryan says is the correct answer
... unless built into edge, chromium or webkit, we can't move
forward
... this in mind, I plan to skip that test unless there are
objections
mck: support skipping that
particular test
... if anybody puts this code out thinking a good label will
result, they're mistaken
... better spec if there's cleaner language and code, but might
be difficult right now
bg: part of this comes down to whether we can immediately find solution
mck: i agree, might need more discussion
joanie: in this case, we defer to HTML, which would expect display text
mck: discussion we'll want to
have, in 1.2, on where CSS text comes into play
... better to leave out for now
joanie: i can skip this test?
jn: yes
joanie: all in favor of sending out the CfC?
<carmacleod> +1
<HarrisSchneiderman> +1
<jamesn> +1
+1
<melanierichards> +1
mck: this should help with clarity and consistency
joanie: ok cool, looking pretty
good if we count the work being done with google
... thanks bryan for all the hard work with this
bg: going to be gone between Oct 13-Nov 1, so i might be hard to reach
joanie: well hopefully your spec will be in PR by then
<jamesn> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC/2019
jn: dates are known for next year's TPAC in south of Japan
<jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/699
jn: best to catch up on the issue
<carmacleod> joanie can you verify: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/699#issuecomment-427026128
jn: over the last week, melanie
and matt have been working on a lot of comments, carolyn
working on giving some of them answers
... matt's question on role of none struck me
<jongund> I like the idea of using role=none
cm: joanie, i listed what AAM
specs say in this comment ... could you confirm that I'm
understanding AAM tables right?
... with current mappings, does it make sense to say div and
span default to none?
mck: if we don't rationalize mappings, possible to have one role for both?
joanie: two issues, if it's
focusable, it's included in tree as a text object
... that said, a div is like a block of text, a section,
whereas span is inline
... if we have generic role and spacing property, what would
happen in mapping?
... presence of properties combined with roles may have
dedicated mapping tables
cm: discussing giving div and span role of none, not even generic
mck: still looking at this, at
what the actual difference is
... a div and span with role none and block styling, is that
the same as a paragraph with role presentationa nd block
styling?
cm: i'm not sure
joanie: what role presentation
says is if presentation applied to object, it's not in tree but
exposes contents
... a div or span, object is there, text included in
parent
... if there is a reason for separate dedicated object, we
should have a generic role
... do we want a dedicated accessible object?
mck: primary puprose of generic was to map div and span
joanie: a div with role none wouldn't be in the tree, parent element gets the content. without role none would be in the accessibiilty tree
cm: this isn't how i read coreAAM
for presentation
... says if it has required owned descendents, map it as
section, etc.
joanie: this is the case if you
have a say a table, which has cells, can't have a table cell
w/o table
... cells get role section
cm: ah i have written this incorrectly
joanie: yes, children/content have to be there, accessible object does not
mck: so you're saying if you have
a div with text, button, more text...
... in a paragraph
joanie: depends on platform
... two text strings would be separated
mck: so now, if paragraph has a div with role none, and same things inside, how does it behave?
joanie: in theory, text of div gets sucked into paragraph, paragraph has embedded object (button)
mck: paragraph contains text with button... how does tree represent that?
joanie: where the button is would have an embedded obj character
mck: what is the value of that difference, between div with role none, and without?
joanie: if you have a large block
of text, like a paragraph, and want different navigation
... or divs in a tree, because that's the way it is because
that's what gecko and ibm came up with
mck: if you have text-separation
on it, and a bunch of divs in a row, do they have to have
separate objects in the tree?
... if each div with role none and had
text-separation=paragraph, how would they behave?
joanie: in theory, parent
container gets text content. becuase of text-sep, when text is
folded into parent, content would be separated by two newlines.
hypothetically
... user still has content but no longer an object
... is there a case where you'd still want an object?
mck: argument came down to
semantics of div and span, especially regarding text in those
items
... spans by default would have no separation, divs would,
depending on screen readers etc.
... seems like all semantics wrapped up in how text is
separated has nothing to do with how to detect edges of
container
... possible for in one screen reader to navigate divs and
spans
joanie: elaborate?
mck: in jaws, can set key to
navigate to next div and span. dunno why you'd do that
... couldn't have single role for both if we don't go with
something like role=none
... to navigate by div or span isn't navigating semantic
content. no obligation t osupport that
... just my opinion!
<joanie> https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/Plans-regarding-role-parity#generic-role
joanie: on the one hand, let's
discuss div and span. what all gets the generic role?
... do header/footer get generic role? maybe you want to jump
to that
... if we go the none route, things will start getting removed
from a11y tree
<carmacleod> Summary of elements we said would have generic role: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/699#issuecomment-426681491
mck: i think we have to decide
something about purpose
... if divs and spans dont have semantic roles, they should be
transparent containers
... similar to attributes, bold italic, it's not an object in
and of itself
joanie: unless it were
focusable
... could be that an author uses a b tag and a tab index
hs: could be useful for a scrollable region
mck: could see where someone
might create a mode in a reader, tab to highlighted words that
have actions
... don't want them tabbable because they're in the middle of a
text and could disrupt flow
... maybe has a popup
... can imagine a situation where text isn't read as text,
comments, misspelling etc.
joanie: if item is focusable, it
needs an accessible object. see wiki on bold/inline (when
exposed)
... if it's exposed, has to be as a generic something
<jongund> +q
janina: wondering if we're gonna have a similar conversation when discussing multilingual embedded content
cm: right, leaning towards keeping generic role? scary to wipe all context of many things
mck: differences in platforms
making me question what are attriibutes of object, vs...
... what's the difference between a paragraph and a span of
text in a paragraph with bold attribute
... only thing that happens is im in the bold text then out of
it
jn: need to create same semantics
as exist in HTML
... with roles
... having a couple extra roles is less harmful than not adding
things we do need
mck: some might be concerned with that
jn: working to create a role that
could be used in several areas
... none is something we expect general authors to use
mck: is the case for a role based
on whether we need an object in a11y tree?
... just because there's a role doesn't mean screen readers
have a unique navigation
... is the idea that header and footer are meaningless
semantics, make it generic? don't distinguish between header,
footer, div, span?
joanie: sometimes might want to announce contents of header and footer
jg: thinking about authoring,
sometimes div and span might be interactive. might be a factor
in determining if they have a role
... difference of b or i tag and span with styles applied?
joanie: none
... if something is mapped to tree, use generic role
mck: if the HTML AAM says generic with text-sep, when get to the API level, does that end up creating an object for that span?
joanie: no, beause what would go
in HTML AAM would be something like not mapped
... if there's a need to map it, use aria role=generic
mck: a key aspect is having
generic being an element that doesn't have a role
... a screen reader doesn't tell me that it's generic
... what is the effect on AT? for AT devs?
... the way we have generic worded, it's not clear if it's an
invisible container or not on the end user perspective
... this is what led me to the "none" thinking, 'oh it's
invisible, it's not there'
jn: i appreciate your thoughts
Matt, don't see the harm in doing generic
... the fact that divs and spans are exposed means we need
something other than none?
mck: they're exposed at an API level, not to AT users - we don't want them exposed to AT users
jn: while we don't have
conclusions, my gut is that we need generic
... and we can explore none more
cm: seems that way to me too
mck: i'm kind of okay with going
with the gut feeling, but don't have a clear understanding of
the issue
... feels weird to put an object in the a11y tree if we don't
want it there
... only in the tree in some circumstances, like if they're
focusable for instance
joanie: historically speaking, how do we deal with children in objects, then it became documented, and set into practice
jn: overtime, need a conclusion: move this to 1.2
cm: that's fine, can probably get some words in
jn: doesn't mean stop working,
but that this is important enough and should go through
procedure once we have something, and we can publish
after
... reasonable conclusion?
mck: +1
cm: +1
+1
<HarrisSchneiderman> +1
jn: we stick with generic, don't explore role=none right now
mck: i love the rationalization!
<HarrisSchneiderman> +1 too scary ;)
cm: because it's too scary!
jn: carolyn, if you can wordsmith?
cm: yes, matt, thanks for comments on PR
jn: let's discuss more at TPAC
mck: didn't get into topic of precidence
cm: can discuss in issue
jn: thanks everyone!
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.154 of Date: 2018/09/25 16:35:56 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: Irssi_ISO8601_Log_Text_Format (score 1.00) Default Present: jamesn, MarkMcCarthy, Joanmarie_Diggs, MichaelC, HarrisSchneiderman, melanierichards, CurtBellew, jongund, matt_king Present: jamesn MarkMcCarthy Joanmarie_Diggs MichaelC HarrisSchneiderman melanierichards CurtBellew jongund matt_king carmacleod Found Scribe: MarkMcCarthy Inferring ScribeNick: MarkMcCarthy Found Date: 04 Oct 2018 People with action items: WARNING: IRC log location not specified! (You can ignore this warning if you do not want the generated minutes to contain a link to the original IRC log.)[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]