<LisaSeemanKestenbaum> im not sure what you meen

<LisaSeemanKestenbaum> can u join webex

<scribe> scribe: clapierre

Apap

APA Charter Personalization Scoping

Janina: voting closed on Friday one late comment affects the work of this TF
... , wanted to bring it to you all incase it raises concerns.
... , the comment: global component and specific component.
... , would be nice to have personalization not restricted to a11y
... , Lets keep putting curbcuts in, lets keep adding these.

<Thaddeus> woud someone mind poping up the call-in infor in another window

Janina: , the specific comment was to change the language in the charter.
... , scoping part which talks about working on specifications

<scribe> …, new or existing w3c specifications

Micheal, we would clarify working with other groups. there was a comment that we may add additional modules.

Janina: specifically 3rd bullet to change "new" specifications or "additions" to existing specifications.
... , not a blocking objection.
... , any objection to this?

Lisa: we have the vocabularies and we could implement to JS

<LisaSeemanKestenbaum> +1

Sam: small comment, I would agree that this could affect a large # of users, and they are not specifically for a11y, this could be useful across the board, and can see how this can affect a greater # of users.
... assistance instead of personalization.

Micheal, changing the word "Personalization" would be complicated to change that at this point.

scribe: , many a11y technologies are being used in mainstream.

<JF> +1 to Michael

Sam: I like this strategy.

Lisa: any objections?

<sgoto> +1 to Michael's perspective too

John, Echo +1 to Micheal, I would encourage the commenter to join our team.

+11

<Thaddeus> +1

<LisaSeemanKestenbaum> put a plus one if you are ok

<LisaSeemanKestenbaum> +1

<sharon> +1

<Roy> +1

<sgoto> if anyone could share with me (privately) who the commenter was i'd be happy to try to connect the dots to the extent that i'm able to

<LisaSeemanKestenbaum> https://github.com/w3c/personalization-semantics/wiki/Comparison-of-ways-to-use-vocabulary-in-content

Lisa: Lets start with the older tables, newer issues coming up later (discuss what the use cases)

<Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to summarize proposed changes

review of what we are trying to achive today. - do we have enough information. can support more then one implemention for each technology. must support one

Lisa: just trying to understand what is going into the table or anything missing
... , should mention, we don't have to limited ourselves to 1 implementation, we just need to be able to supporting each one, but we don't have to have one that supports everything.

<Thaddeus> +1

Lisa: , everyone ok with that scopping?

<sharon> +1

<sgoto> +1

<sgoto> works for me

some te rms (usecase) and were to find them

<Becka11y> +1

<JF> +1

Lisa: usecase wrote back to Sam. Do people think its pivital to look at the use-cases (in the different modules)
... , Do we have enough to have this conversation, but I think we should move fwd.

Sam: I saw the use-cases, they seem like a good starting point, may not be sufficient, the usecases/requirements but should become clearer

<JF> s/*AS* long as Mozilla wants to come work with us, I have no issue. I am wary of the line regarding WHAT WG and some of the other machinations surrounding that larger topic/

Lisa: so you are ok if we move on… ok great.
... Comparison of RDFa?
... , RDFa example using RDFa, pros/cons
... , Pros: Does not require explicit support from host language, if they support RDFa.
... , Cons: Not supported if RDFa not supported by host language.

<JF> +1 to the complexity on authors concern

Lisa: , Default subject is the page, which is limiting.
... , problem with user agents RDFa not processed in end-user agents.
... , if they are not using it in simplest form a lot of UA will do it wrong.
... , RDFa we allow the author to do more complicated things which many will get wrong.
... , Support for different features, it does support term value pairs, but HTML only allows this on the meta element and that we don't have full support we can't use value/pair on meta data and be inline in the body so we will get stuck on does RDFa support this, and will have augmented name of each term in the vocabulary will be unique so it doesn't get overridden.
... , will be quite complicated because of the name/value pairs. any of our features like easy lang where you might want to put the text in.

John: concerned about extensibility beyond HTML native mobile, iOS, PDF, larger web WCAG not recognize these other platforms.

Lisa: yes we should be tracking that, different platforms like iOS, PDF, android etc.

John: a11y of documents like Open Office, Word etc. we talk about Host Language what about the more common on the web like native apps etc…

Lisa: a vocabulary and implementation, we have the vocabulary others could use that

John: right now first row is host languages, in the case of RDFa is supported in host language can they use the vocabulary

<sgoto> i'm familiar with microdata

<sgoto> yep,will do

<sgoto> me, personally, fairly familiar with the notations here (although unfamiliar with your use cases/requirements)

Lisa: Microdata Discussion are folks familiar with this?

<sgoto> (so paying mostly attention on the use cases / requirements rather than the notation)

<Thaddeus> im familiar with microdata I have worked with it

Becky: I am hearing that RDFa the can't support freeflowing text especially in the language module

Lisa: other two problems is error prone if anyone is doing it manually.
... , RDFa / Microdata is a relatively simple to implement it but you can scope it differently and the question is , people can mess it up and will UA miss interpret it. RDFa is used for indexing
... , programmers can get it wrong in a Hackathon as well

John: Microdata is now a W3C recommendation and used by Search engines. My sense is that it is not used by content authors. Implantation that library terms must be defined and that it takes 3/4 attributes req. and for authors there is a heavy lift.

Lisa: you can scope things differently
... , Host Languages • Does not require explicit support from host language., but con only supported by HTML.

John: it is scalable to any markup language, but it is an HTML extension so it won't go beyond HTML.

Lisa: Authoring Uses a potentially familiar language for custom semantic annotation.

<JF> From the Microdata spec: Abstract This [html-extensions] specification defines new HTML attributes to embed simple machine-readable data in HTML documents. It is similar to, but generally less expressive than RDFa, and does not support the same level of internationalization. It is simple to learn and process, but authors who need good internationalization support, or want to include structured content in their data should consider using RDFa. (or another f[CUT]

Lisa: , Cons: Somewhat complex to implement, requires several attributes to attach a simple property.

Sam: same with RDFa and others with Microdata is tied to the DOM treee.

Lisa: Lets add this point to the table?

Sam: CSS absolute positioning are not described in the 1:1 with the DOM tree.
... , RDFa, Microdata, ARIA, AUI attributes are all tied to the DOM tree.

<sgoto> blargh, i'm sorry, i'm not using the queue properly. i'll start adding myself to the queue going forward.

<sgoto> yep, somewhat familiar with that

<sgoto> accessibility object model

<sgoto> specifically

<sgoto> imperatively

<sgoto> right

<sgoto> another example

<sgoto> is JSON-LD

<sgoto> which de-coupled from the DOM

John: the AOM, that there is work in the W3C (Accessibility Object Model) Sam was saying that some of this attribute based are tied specifically to the dom and what I am saying is that browsers are looking at DOM and could be looking at the AOM potentially.

<sgoto> \isn't that microformats?

<sgoto> regarding CSS classes

<sgoto> that's equally tied to the DOM

Lisa: Associating things with CSS? will we want to associate CSS classes or other things in the presentation layer.

John: if we get this abstract this out enough then CSS can implement this at the presentation layer.
... , I think CSS plays a large part in terms of personalization if we get abstraction right we can invite the CSS WG and say we have these terms and work with them

<JF> Microformats lacks a rigid enough mechanism for hardening definitions

Sam: Regarding CSS classes microformats certain classes with sections of the DOM, semantics to CSS classes, same issues with RDFa, Microdata are tied to the DOM tree.
... , I believe all these DOM related have the same limitations

John: we sorta rejected miroformates because the definitions are hosted in a public wiki, and lacks enough oversight

<sgoto> yep, agreed that we should at least note down microformats, for comparison purposes

<sgoto> yep

Lisa: we can always use CSS selectors with the ARIA ones. I am not sure if we can use it with the microdata and RDFa because of the multiple ways it can be scoped. Maybe add does it support use with CSS selectors? Because that is an easy way users can use.
... is this a good idea?

John: we can use CSS selectors today, so for that matter if aui- we could use css selectors.

Sam: you can probably do CSS selectors with RDFa / microdata

Lisa: even with name spacing?

John: namespacing idea will get complex but in terms of the author could style against ...
... , you are right it will be complex to do that would be a con.

Lisa: so lets make sure we add this, CSS name space if you are not the author it would be difficult to do.
... , possible because you can look through the HTML looking for the namespace but that is a new level of complexity.
... , lets capture this more specifically. can a Highschool student use this, and we loose that capability if we make it too complex.
... ARIA attributes
... , Host Languages pro: No special support required if already supporting ARIA., Con: Not supported if ARIA in general not supported., Not an available option if the ARIA WG does not accept the vocabulary as part of ARIA.
... , Authors: Relatively simple to author, one attribute per property. Authors interested in accessibility may already be familiar with ARIA. Cons: Potential confusion with other ARIA features.
... , roles, actions will these confuse people, good from authors point of view.
... UA: simple pattern match, no name spaces etc.

<sgoto> fyi, i have a hard block/conflict at 11am PST in a couple of minutes.

Lisa: , Con: Potential confusion handling attributes since aria- attributes generally trigger accessibility API mapping response. Maybe it should they may need on their end more support, but that will be the resistance from ARIA WG now is this a hole in A11Y APIs
... , conversation with ARIA want to map to A11Y api.
... , communication with ARIA WG. they don't want feature creep etc.
... , the a11y api should be happy to map but we will need to discuss this with them.

<sgoto> sgtm

<sgoto> carrying on sgtm

<sgoto> got to go

<sgoto> see you all

<Thaddeus> thanks

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FAILED: s/*AS* long as Mozilla wants to come work with us, I have no issue. I am wary of the line regarding WHAT WG and some of the other machinations surrounding that larger topic//
Succeeded: s/miroformates because it was a public wiki/miroformates because the definitions are hosted in a public wiki, and lacks enough oversight/
Present: clapierre sgoto JF janina MichaelC Becka11y Thaddeus sharon
Found Scribe: clapierre
Inferring ScribeNick: clapierre

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<dbooth> Date: 12 Sep 2002

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