Silver Community Group Teleconference

13 Jul 2018


Charles, AngelaAccessForAll, LuisG, KimD, jeanne, Cybele, Lauriat, Jennison, shari
jeanne, Shawn


<jeanne> scribe: LuisG

Updates on Silver Requirements (also Issues)

Update on where we are with Requirements Doc

Shawn: We got lots of positive feedback with folks saying "this is a good direction"
... One of the questions was "What would happen if we got AGWG working on Silver instead of WCAG 2.2?" We weren't quite prepared to answer, so said "let's get requirements first and then revisit"
... They also wanted to know "if we did WCAG 2.2, what would most likely go into it?"

Jeane: That was going back into folks that worked on 2.1 and wondering what they wanted to put in 2.2
... FYI: AGWG is parent of the Silver community group

<Charles> In my opinion, 2.x = backlog; silver = new

Jennison: If AGWG were to shift to Silver, how would that affect us?

Shawn: It would very much change how we're managing the project now. We have a lot of prototyping we want to do and it would be a major shift. Everyone won't work on all the things. We need to have some people work on X. One person manage another prototype, etc.
... a double edged sword of a lot more people helping, but having to also manage a lot of people

<Charles> 2.x = (broad) response to collected research and input from multiple task forces; silver = (narrow) response to explicit research of one task force.

<Charles> but the real distinction is 2.x is locked to not alter previous 2.0 – 2.x; silver is specifically altering

Jeanne: There was a fair amount of pushback about our decision to postpone writing a requirement for technology neutral.

<jeanne> https://github.com/w3c/silver/issues/19

Jeanne: We got some comments in Github about the requirements document.
... He wanted more reasons why we need guidelines.
... Talked about wht would happen if we broaden scope...very long and thorough. We should review in detail for a future draft
... Another comment from David MacDonald about measurability vs testability

<Charles> we also included lawyers

<jeanne> https://github.com/w3c/silver/issues/22

Jeanne: said we'd need input from lawyers, and other points. I replied addressing some of his concerns.
... oh, and it seems he's replied already

Update on projects (EO, examples from COGA and LVTF, others?)

KimD: What about some kind of transition document? The sooner you can get people up to speed for changing thinking, it would be helpful.

<Charles> so less onboarding and more “how to use Mac for former Windows users”?

Jeanne: That sounds great. Do you have time to sit with me to figure out what should be in it? I've been looking at it so long, it's hard to say what should be in the transition doc.

<jeanne> ACTION: Jeanne with KimD to work on a transition document for AGWG to Silver explaining why the change in thinking.

<trackbot> Created ACTION-194 - With kimd to work on a transition document for agwg to silver explaining why the change in thinking. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2018-07-20].

Jeanne: EO Education and Outreach working group of W3C works pretty closely with AGWG, but do educational documents W3C makes. Some are difficult to find, but they're very useful.
... want to find better ways to link out more to their resources. They're doing a project to rewrite Understanding WCAG document in plain language
... asked if we could take some of their plain language work and include it in the prototype so folks have more content to work with
... was thinking of taking some of Cybele's work in plain language and some of the EO work for Understanding and creating a file of data to use in prototypes.
... Some more tangible data of what Silver would look like

Charles: Fire thing that came to mind. They must have some criteria for plain language. Let's make sure our criteria are aligned.

Jeanne: That'll relate to our Plain Language Style Guide agenda item

Charles: Is it something that can be socialized? Is it public knowledge?

Jeanne: Their email lists are open to the public. So probably fine. And if they have a style guide, we could make sure we're in line with it
... anyone want to take this task of gather data and maybe put it in Github?

Angela: I can help put some of that together if someone can help me with Github?

Jeanne: This is a longstanding action item. We should have examples of items that didn't get into 2.1 that we want to get into Silver so we can test whatever prototypes for structure to see if the new examples work in the structure.
... suggested we used Accessible Authentication. Didn't get in for 2.1 because not strictly testable
... suggested doing a usability test under "these" circumstances, can you log in. If you turn off monitor, unplug mouse, etc. can you log in?
... didn't fit WCAG model, but could and should meet Silver model
... low vision may ask us to test focus indicator usability
... the other that is testability related is...something related to font family. It was turned down because too hard to test all of the fonts a user could have on their system.
... willing to share a lot of data with us.
... So we have 3 examples of things we can do usability testing of the prototypes with
... and as we get them done, we can set up tests

Cybele: I have my own list of things that didn't get into 2.1
... why prioritization of A, AA, AAA? What are the biases around that?
... Bias around impossibility or difficulty and that's a problematic bias for people with cognitive disabilities.
... the other is around conflict. Some disabilities have conflicting needs with others
... is it better to have fixed vs sortable information, for example

Jeanne: This is a good place to bring this up; maybe not the best time. A, AA, AAA is something that came up for us. We would want a different system and we're working towards that.
... Regarding font family advice and conflicts, we'll probably deal with it more in 2019
... unless you think we should do something structurally to address conflict

Cybele: In brick-and-mortar world there is literature for dealing with conflict. Some general principles on accommodating people with diverse needs would be useful

Kim: I second Cybele's thoughts on this.
... from speech input point of view, there are conflicts that people don't typically see

Charles: Something we accounted for was when SC were related to others or couldn't be achieved because of conflicts...something in the structure that shows relational or conflict path between criteria

<jeanne> ACTION: LuisG to start writing up a list of tests to be performed on the prototypes

<trackbot> Error finding 'LuisG'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/silver/track/users>.

<jeanne> ACTION: Jeanne with LuisG to start writing up a list of tests to be performed on the prototypes

<trackbot> Created ACTION-195 - With luisg to start writing up a list of tests to be performed on the prototypes [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2018-07-20].

Charles: Google Doc would probably be better. Need to figure out What is our testing strategy and then...
... we need some mechanism to compare it to something else.
... one of the strategies should be a comparative one. So we can determine if one is a winner depending on how it scores against something else.
... but that might not be the only strategy.

Jeanne: For now we just want to capture the ideas we had today.
... We only have your two examples for plain text.
... thought we could start working on strategy for style guide. i think kim said we should get it from EO
... that's a great place to start. Kim/Cybele, what did you learn from writing the text that should be included in a Silver styleguide?

<Charles> some of the resources in this doc had style guides: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LPMbnOGKS4B6LIQ3_vQ0NFKK7LYUgM3TO7nCc7OOacs/edit?usp=sharing

Kim: Just made language as clear as it could be. See if you can make it clearer with the existing confines.
... when you have versions of things, cutting down a long story for a radio copy
... starting one of them and not going too back-and-forth is a key thing
... it's tough doing plain language from a moving target. Doing a pass through preserving the information is a useful thing to do.

Jeanne: I want to show your work to the AGWG as something they can do in 2.2

Cybele: Putting the audience at the center and thinking about what's currently out there helps.
... I went to the guidelines and the Understanding documents. I looked at blogs for people explaining it to others. What worked, what didn't work, etc.
... I thought about the people that tend to hold back accessibility improvements. A manager not wanting to spend money, a creator looking for a minimum viable product, etc.
... people that see it as difficult and want to make it easier for them
... make the standard more accessible for them

<Charles> Style from John Rochford example: Some principles I employed are: using 1 or 2 syllable words that are common; reducing sentence length; using active voice in the present tense; replacing non-literal expressions, such as “turn up the sound” to “make the sound louder”; using examples, such as the above, to illustrate a point; and lists instead of long sentences.

Cybele: I continue seeing a11y done at the tail end of projects. What would help create a culture shift
... Reframing the structure and leading with where people were at in terms of people that experience barriers.
... People fixated on "I'm doing a mobile app" and getting them to understand that's not how everyone will use it.
... from a specific language perspective. Reducing the reading score.
... it could probably be reduced even further, but thought it gave somewhere to start from

Jeanne: We'll talk more on this when we have more examples.

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Jeanne with KimD to work on a transition document for AGWG to Silver explaining why the change in thinking.
[NEW] ACTION: Jeanne with LuisG to start writing up a list of tests to be performed on the prototypes
[NEW] ACTION: LuisG to start writing up a list of tests to be performed on the prototypes

Summary of Resolutions

[End of minutes]

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Present: Charles AngelaAccessForAll LuisG KimD jeanne Cybele Lauriat Jennison shari
Regrets: Jan
Found Scribe: LuisG
Inferring ScribeNick: LuisG
Found Date: 13 Jul 2018
People with action items: jeanne kimd luisg with

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