Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) Working Group Teleconference

07 Mar 2018


Rossen_, bdc, rego, dael, rachelandrew, Florian, antenna, ericwilligers, fantasai, alex_antennahouse, antonp, dauwhe, tgraham, smfr, lajava, bradk, tmichel, tantek, leaverou, Chris_, melanierichards, liam, :), birtles, plinss, nainar, myles, TabAtkins, astearns, gsnedders, dbaron, Chris, present, Vlad, tgraham``, krit, Amelia, AmeliaBR, fremy, tgraham`, xidorn, shane, franremy, dino, garrett, Rossen


<scribe> ScribeNick: dael

<rachelandrew> I'm being asked for a meeting password by webex today

<alex_antennahouse> just clicking join worked for me with no pw

astearns: It's top of the hour. We'll wait a bit more.
... I think we should start.

<rachelandrew> thanks - have the password now

astearns: Does anyone have any extra items to add today?

Rossen: I want to add one.

<rachelandrew> in an airport lounge, wifi not brilliant so may vanish occasionally

Rossen: I wanted to draw attention to the TYPO conference CSSWG presentation. I don't think we've hadmuch engagement on the mailing list. I attempted to provoke convo last week there. I'd like to discussion options today.

[unminuted people trying to decide who can talk]

Rossen: Please reach out to me if you're at all interested even if you're not sure. The conference is in a month from now so it would be bad to have nothing prepared.

<fantasai> I thought I already said I wanted to present?

astearns: fantasai mentions on IRC she's interested. There's at least 3 maybes. If you 3 could talk and if you do this on the private list you can maybe get more people.

Rossen: Perfect.

<Chris> I can also do a cut-down portion of my webfonts talk as a fallback if we have nothing better

Chris: I've got a web fonts talk I can cut from. It's prob better from browser vendors then me, but as a fallback.

<leaverou_> I can give my variables talk if needed

Rossen: i've achieved what I want. Let's re-engage on the private list.

Color 3: Transition back to PR

<fantasai> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2018JanMar/0023.html

Chris: Published as a CR in Dec. Since we've had almost nothing in comments.One was a stray semi-colon. So we need a resolution to do a PR.

astearns: There was one substantive change with a passing test case.

Chris: Yes, it passes exit criteris

<tantek> +1

astearns: Obj to requesting a transition to PR for CSS Color 3?

RESOLUTION: Request a transition to PR for CSS Color 3?

Rossen: While we're on the topic, can I ask the status of writing modes which was supposed to rec some time ago?

astearns: Good question. I think what we're stuck on is getting an updated test result. I believe liam has pledged to look soon so we may want to wait on liam

liam: Yes, I'll be looking over the next week.

Rossen: Thank you liam. We were so close to rec and then there were some minor issues and we're spiraling back from our progress.

florian: I don't know if fantasai is on the phone. There were edits and tests to write based on a recent decision. She and I made them and she'll be in Tokyo with koji to look at it. liams effort with theirs will be the final push.

astearns: Let's revisit next week.

[css-fonts-3] Review disposition of comments, publish updated CR

<Chris> https://drafts.csswg.org/issues?spec=css-fonts-3&doc=cr-2017

Chris: There wasn't a DoC so I made one.I sent mail to the list in case anyone had comments. No obj. There were a few rejectsions due to compat. Spec is up to date, change list is updated. We had a resolution ages ago but we weren't ready
... myles is on and I know there was work on fonts 4. Should we publish together?

florian: I d on't think they need to hold up.

Chris: We have updated tests for fonts 3.

myles: florian is correct there's no need to wait on one or the other. I'm reaching a pretty good place to publish fonts 4.

Chris: Okay, that's fine.
... I'd like a re-resolution.

astearns: Comments on publishing updated CR of Fonts L3?
... Objections?

<fantasai> +1 to publishing

<tantek> +1

RESOLUTION: publish updated CR of Fonts L3

astearns: Thanks Chris

[typed-om] Trim CSSResourceValue and subclasses to opaque objects for this level, punt rest to level 2

github: https://github.com/w3c/css-houdini-drafts/issues/716

shane: Let me look. I guess TabAtkins is not on.

astearns: I think it was taking things out of the first level, but there's quite a lot of discussion.

shane: We n eed TabAtkins

[css-2018] CSS Snapshot 2018

github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/2281

<TabAtkins> One sec

Chris: I saw a PR with all the changes. I commented favorably but didn't approve to give time. florian anything else?

florian: I'mhappy with what I wrote and comfortable that you agree. It will not be enough to close the snapshot because there are other open questions. list of specs is done. There's a thing about indexes. Thread about if we shoudl move normative text.

Chris: That one we agreed we would. this snapshot will be a WD. When we publish next year we'll republish as a note.

florian: If we agree on PR we'll merge it. If there's other things I can agenda+ this back.

Chris: Okay

florian: Is dbaron on?
... You suggested some additions. I took cascade 4 but the others had too many issues for my taste. Would you like to push back?

dbaron: I think they're getting a bunch of impl. If the issues aren't getting resolved we need to deal with that.

florian: I think there is a stable core, but 50 open issues I don't feel is stable and reliable. But we should get to them. They should be on the priority list. But not on the already stable.

fantasai: Snapshot to to document wha's stable, not things that should be. If there is some thing that we need to say this is cleared to ship unprefixed in broad release as an exception we can document that spearately. THese are things that are okay to ship. Transitions, animations, and transforms have been on the list forever. THe spec isn't done.

dbaron: We should gather that list. We might need a category for things that are stable because web needs them but spec doesn't cover it yet.

<florian> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/2388

florian: fantasai did open an issue about the first catagory
... Link ^ please look.
... For the other suggestion do you want an issue on that dbaron ?

dbaron: Maybe Might depend on this other issue.

florian: I'll agenda+ it now so we cycle b ack to i t.
... For thepull, should we merge?

Chris: I would say we should. We can always make more changes later.

astearns: Agree.

<dbaron> Yeah, +1 to merging, can change more later if needed

florian: agree

astearns: Anything more on the snapshot?

Chris: Assuming w e get linking/indexing do people want moretime to suggest or do we move toward publish?

florian: I'd like a resolution to fantasai 's issue but then we can move to first public.

astearns: let's go back to issue #2388 on a future week.

florian: Sounds good

[typed-om] Trim CSSResourceValue and subclasses to opaque objects for this level, punt rest to level 2

github: https://github.com/w3c/css-houdini-drafts/issues/716

astearns: now that we have TabAtkins


[everyone curses Tab's internet]

TabAtkins: This was brought up a week o r two ago as an ask f or review. Anne had some discussion.
... Big points: I did discuss rough outline before. Newer bits: because CSS distinguishes between normal a nd fragment-only URLs we want to reflect that in the URL structure somehow. To say this is full o r fragment. My plan was storing what it was, but Anne remarked hewould prefer if it was refered more directly either as a bolean or a sep URL class. franremy had a weak preference
... I'll do those edits soon. Any opinions let me know. Otherwise I'll do what I outline in the thread here.

astearns: Any other opinions for TabAtkins to consider?
... Alright. We're on notice you're going to change.

TabAtkins: I guess not. Wanted to ping for review because it's a decent change.

[css-sizing] Percentage sizing section is kind of vague

github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/1132#issuecomment-363623845

fantasai: Sizing issue was that we...we're asking for review of the comment: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/1132#issuecomment-363623845

astearns: There is a test. There are proposed edits in the comment.
... Basically you either want a resolution to make the edit or reasons why not or things to improve?

fantasai: Yeah. Looking for review.
... For margins and padding case I think it's asep issue that we need to discuss.
... This text is just about sizing properties. margins is not a sizing property.
... For margins and padding we could honor whatever is in the calc that's n ot the % and treat % as 0. I suspect that would not cause a problem and makes a bit of sense to do if we can.
... For sizing properties it's more complicated because you want ot be able tomeasure the content. but for margins and padding there isn't a thing to measure. So we could resolve % against 0 to calc the contining block rather then ignore the margin entirely.

franremy: This was brought up 2 weeks ago. me and dbaron reviewed and I think we were both fine with the proposal. dbaron pointed out you want to link to the sizing properties. I think this is fine. We found more htings tow ork on but it's fine to open a new issue.

<TabAtkins> oh god

<TabAtkins> whoa echo

dbaron: The one sentence...the one comment is I think containing a % could be two different things. It could be syntatic or mathematic.

franremy: I think there is a test that covered this. We can clarify the text, but there is a test I think.

fantasai: Yeah, we need clarification.

dbaron: I'm fine given the clarification and hyperlink.

astearns: Other comments?

<TabAtkins> tabatkins: 0% definitely should count as "containing a percentage".

astearns: Does anyone object to the change with the clarification and hyperlink?

<fantasai> Discussion of margins is kinda mixed in here : https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/2297

RESOLUTION: Accept the edit in https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/1132#issuecomment-363623845 with a clarification and a hyperlinked term.

fantasai: I think margin stuff is in issue #2297

astearns: So franremy please look there and see if you can continue in that or open a sep issue

[css-flex] Min-content sizing currently too smart to be web compatible?

github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/2353

franremy: That w as brought up lasst week. TabAtkins needed time to review. I don't know if they had time. If not we can move out.

<astearns> github: none

fantasai: Next week. I've been working on text last week.

<TabAtkins> Same, been heads-down on TypedOM this last week.

franremy: I think it's fine to skip

[css-backgrounds] 20+ tests need correction

link: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2017Sep/0051.html

astearns: I think I saw some movement on this. I think someone opened an issue?

<Chris> they need to be in a subdirectory called support

dbaron: I went through gerald's list. 2 chunks were mozilla contributed. We didn't do something right to get support files in right. I filed an issue on that and if someone wants to tell me how to fix that we can get them better. There's a whole other pieces.

astearns: I don't think gerard looks at github

dbaron: I responded to thread too.

astearns: So there are other things that need to be addressed?

dbaron: Yes. They included a big chunk but there are others.

astearns: I know theirry spent sometime, but I don't know if he'll spend more.

Chris: As I understand he's still tasked to work on it.

astearns: Okay. Could you prod him?

<dbaron> The issue I filed was https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/issues/9912#issue-303294211

Chris: Yes.

<dbaron> And my www-style response was https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2018Mar/0018.html

astearns: Hopefully we can have Gerald help us with the fix. Anybody else interested in looking at these issues? B&B is one of those specs we could get to PR if we get the test issues sorted out.
... Not hearing volunteers.

[css-text-decor] Characters to skip for emphasis marks (text-emphasis)

github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/839

fantasai: This is about emphasis marks that are the dots put over the character. In general they're not on top of punctuation or spaces, jsut characters. When we drafted the css3 text for this koji and I asked what characters to skip. At that time Japanese task force said usually skip punctuation but they might want to so you should put markup to skip.
... That seemed to be their position and that's what we spec and then in L4 we added a property to control on punctuation or not etc.
... We got a comment from someone as to why the dots are on the punct. That re-opened the topic. i18n said we should do the right thing by default and a control to allow other things.
... Does the group want us to change the behavior to only put emphasis on not-punctuation? Or keep the current behavior?

<Chris> it sounds like the right thing to do, and I guess unicode character classes help there

florian: If there's no compat contraints doing the right thing for default is better

many: I agree

Chris: Unicode character classes should make this fairly tractable

<fantasai> ^fantasai: Not skipping punctuation by default means authors have to do weird things with markup to get the right effect

florian: Some punct and symbols might be mixed up but mostly yes.

myles: Do you have specific text as to how to tell where they shoudl and should not go?

fantasai: Looking at the reference.

<fantasai> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-text-decor-4/#text-emphasis-skip

fantasai: It's here^
... Basically we'd propose to change th initial value to spaces and punctuation.

astearns: And change the default behavior to be that setting.
... Is text-emphasis-skip impl?

fantasai: No but if you don't impl you have to do the initial value. So we prt the behavior to L3

myles: Is there a reason this should inheret spec from text emstyle?

fantasai: Yes because you don't want to reset what should skip.

myles: Isn't skipping document wide?

fantasai: Did I mix it up?

myles: No, no, you're right.

fantasai: Kinda similar to why text underline position doesn't get reset by text decoration

myles: right. okay

astearns: Given we have at least one complaint about current behavior and i18n okay to change it seems reasonable to me to move i t into the current level of the spec.
... Objections to changing the default behavrio for emphasis marks in the current level o f text decoration spec?

RESOLUTION: change the default behavior for emphasis marks in the current level of text decoration spec

fantasai: I'll edit that in and we can cycle backto republish next week.

[CSS3] Border width rounding clarification

github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/2114

fantasai: My question was do we want to work o n this or leave it undefined. In the past we have left this kind of thing undefined.

dbaron: Prob good to define better then we do, but not fully. That requires careful work to do. It's work figuring out what the range of behaviors is and figure out if there's willingness to converge and then spec around that range.

astearns: So we need testing to see if there's something we could spec that's interop

franremy: It also depends on screen DPI which makes testing hard. It's always been tricky to get this right. We get from time to time reports we render differently but I am not confident it's easy toe xplain the exact behavior because every drawing path may be differnt. We need more testing yes.

<dbaron> I think it's also more about the layout effects than the drawing paths.

fantasai: Do we want to spend time o n this and if so who?

franremy: Eventually i might be able to but it's not a priority. We've been asked to investigate if we can be better interop. It's a stretch goal we could look. I'm fine assigning to me.

astearns: And I suggest franremy you can ask the person that opened the issue if they have tests or evidence of convergence. We can put it on them what hte solution should be.

franremy: Sounds like an awesome idea.

astearns: Good on this issue?

fantasai: Yes.

[css-counter-styles] testing considerations

link: (member link) https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2018JanMar/0094.html

liam: I've been trying to get the tests for counter styles 3 up to speed.2 snags.one is there's only one impl of a lot o f t he spec. THere's an @rule to make your own counters. Mozilla has donea reasonable job of impl but no oneelse h as.
... To test the built in ones I discovered you can't override the list items in browsers w/o counter styles3. You're supposed to say it can be a quoted string and only FF supports.
... I wanted to ask if anyone will impl this any time soon.
... I thought of putting the @rule in L4 but the other ones a re those you can't do the @rule. How can I ask for intent?

myles: Webkit has no one working on this right now.

liam: microsoft?

franremy: If it's not on the status page we're prob not working on it.

xidorn: Idon't think the @rule needs to be a blocker. We can movet he requirement to impl in L4 and leave it in L3 as an informative thing to define other style behavior. Is that reasonable?

Chris: It's a worst case. We used to havethis enormous list and now there's a refactor so that for most there's the @rule and the stylesheet designer describes it. If we go back to the magic list it's strange. You get hte things that can't be done without the @rule not in the spec. THe spec doesn't stand itself. If no one impl I guess that's allwe can do.

<Chris> agreed, setting to a fixed string would really help here

liam: Best compromise I can see is if other browser vendors impl setting list style to a fixed string you can write a polyfill for it.

myles: This is interesting to us, but this is the general response of I want you to impl X- it would help if you desc the use cases and motiviation in writing. That would help us prioritize.

liam: I'm happy to. Do I do that as an issue against the draft?

fantasai: I'd file against webkit for the string value you mentioned. Try and convince them to impl that so you have the things you need.

franremy: I kind of recall getting a request from office to have t his feature but we didn't follow up strongly. I think if support was better they'd want the feature.

liam: Yes.

astearns: Perhaps liam you could open an issue against webkit for the fixed string and then franremy you can copy that to an edge issue?

<Chris> put it on uservoice then!

franremy: We don't have issue for new features. We keep that to bugs. But there's probably something on user voice.

myles: We track through bugs.

liam: Okay, but end of tonight I'll have the webkit issue.

[css-images-4] Clear conic-gradient() for shipping

<fantasai> ping leaverou_

<franremy> https://wpdev.uservoice.com/forums/257854-microsoft-edge-developer/suggestions/32403796-support-for-counter-style

github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/2383

astearns: leaverou_ put it in the issue
... There's an impl, there's not outstanding problems. She things it'stime to clear it for shipping as Chrome wants to ship. Likely won't be problems when other engines impl.

Chris: I agree. The polyfill has been out for a while and the syntax is stable.

florian: No problem

leaverou_: Impl has been out for a year as well

<leaverou_> The implementatuon has been our for a year too

<florian> I support clearing it for shipping

astearns: Any concerns about clearing for shipping?

<fantasai> sgtm

astearns: Obj for clearing conic-gradient for shipping?

RESOLUTION: Clear conic-gradient() for shipping


astearns: I'm not sure there are other issues for the next 2 minutes.

fantasai: one thing to point out. There's issues about defining max-lines block ellipsis and webkit line clamp. florian and I worked for a few days. We posted a proposal. We're putting this on F2F agenda, but please look before then if interested.

<fantasai> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/390#issuecomment-371076389

Rossen: I heard there was discussion about making normative changes to css3 ui. Does this need WGtime?

florian: Maybe at some point but not yet.

tantek: I don't think it needs WG time.

rossen: Making sure we're covered on our end

florian: I'll get back to the group if necessary.
... I made a tracked in DoC label in github to help people compiling DoCs

astearns: We're done. Talk to you all next week.

<astearns> trackbot, end meeting

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

  1. Request a transition to PR for CSS Color 3?
  2. publish updated CR of Fonts L3
  3. Accept the edit in https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/1132#issuecomment-363623845 with a clarification and a hyperlinked term.
  4. change the default behavior for emphasis marks in the current level of text decoration spec
  5. Clear conic-gradient() for shipping
[End of minutes]

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Default Present: Rossen_, bdc, rego, dael, rachelandrew, Florian, antenna, ericwilligers, fantasai, alex_antennahouse, antonp, dauwhe, tgraham, smfr, lajava, bradk, tmichel, tantek, leaverou, Chris_, melanierichards, liam, :), birtles, plinss, nainar, myles, TabAtkins, astearns, gsnedders, dbaron, Chris, present, Vlad, tgraham``, krit, Amelia, AmeliaBR, fremy, tgraham`, xidorn, shane, franremy, dino, garrett
Present: Rossen_ bdc rego dael rachelandrew Florian antenna ericwilligers fantasai alex_antennahouse antonp dauwhe tgraham smfr lajava bradk tmichel tantek leaverou Chris_ melanierichards liam :) birtles plinss nainar myles TabAtkins astearns gsnedders dbaron Chris present Vlad tgraham`` krit Amelia AmeliaBR fremy tgraham` xidorn shane franremy dino garrett Rossen
Found ScribeNick: dael
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Found Date: 07 Mar 2018
People with action items: 

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