<joanie> agenda: this
<joanie> agenda: be done
<joanie> https://github.com/w3c/aria/projects/2
<jamesn> scribe: jamesn
jd: the process is what we
described at TPAC
... we have to actually draft it - get approved then goes into
ED but won't really go in until we get the mappings etc.
... when time to get mappings might create an issue in core AAM
repo
mk: all the entries are issues -
I have only occasionally used the notecard feature
... I think I can see .... ok ... ok. I think I can see here
how to parse this information. I wish it was easier to tell
when 1 card started and ended.
... will send feedback to github.
... helps me to be able to recognise the patterns. When I
create them I know what they are but when someone else creates
it then it is harder
jd: in terms of doing the cards - I will probably do it one way and then hopefully we can all start doing these together and will figure out what works and doesn't
mk: in order to edit/change cards etc the person needs commit access to the repos
jd: was not on the agenda to the
mailing list
... could we have a group meeting?
... MC shared some thoughts
... who is going
mk: I am going. After hung up
with glen gordon - talking about F2F - should have raise the
CSUN possibility
... there are topics in that space I would like to get
discussions going on
... if can get enough of the right people together
jd: who are those people?
mk: some of the windows
people.... apple doesn't normally send people to csun
... chrome, mozilla, nvda VFO
jd: James Teh not at CSUN this
year
... Monday b4. Is that part of the conference?
mk: M & Tues
pre-conference
... opening keynote Tuesday evening
<Irfan> *present Irfan_Ali
bg: flying in on tuesday
mk: already made flight arrangements?
jd: probably not going to have people wanting to meet monday or tuesday
mk: would be worth planning for
2019
... lessens the overall impact of adding F2F meetings to our
schedule
jd: a key moz person will not
travel to CSUN
... moz HQ looks like something we can raise with them
... looks like no ARIA WG specific meeting this year - but
pursue actively for 2019
jd: my reasoning was not to
discuss the cards themselves
... but the new feature itself
<joanie> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/role-static/#static
jd: we deep dove this
previously
... now with 1.2
... no one had any further changes to this content
... this cannot go into master/ED until the group agrees they
are happy with it
... I am fine with it
mk: I am still not fine
<Stefan> +q
mk: think it is a sledgehammer
where might need a different hammer
... I am not convinced of the use cases.
... it is a section that flattens an entire subtree
... has powers similar to role presentation
... the number of problems it might cause for the simple use
cases we are trying to solve
... if we come up with solid examples which require this - and
if there is no better way then ok
... this role turned out to be an engineering/coding
convenience where you didn't need a new role
... I want to see the code for them first
<joanie> scribe: joanie
JN: I think there are a number of
uses for this role.
... And with ARIA there are always other ways to code
things.
... So we can make that argument for many existing roles.
MK: I disagree.
... The only way you can make a button is role="button"
<jamesn> Stefan: Matt spoke of examples. In the snippet
<scribe> scribe: jamesn
UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: there are
multiple examples
... examples explaining characters. From the original
discussion. special characters could certainly be one usage
jd: I agree with Matt on the
concerns
... the example that JC must have come up with. Example 15
<joanie> Authors MAY provide a fallback role for user agents that do not support the static role. In the following example, img is provided as the fallback role. If the browser supports the static role, the screen reader would be expected to present "I love New York." Otherwise, the browser would expose the span element as an image, and the screen reader might instead say "I, love image, New York."
I will copy/paste the text
<joanie> <p>I <span role="static img" aria-label="love">♥︎</span> New York.</p>
prices on this page need this - https://www.adobe.com/creativecloud/plans.html?sdid=KKQWX&mv=search&s_kwcid=AL!3085!3!232225482888!e!!g!!adobe&ef_id=WlTxWwAAAGD_3Ax7:20180111183439:s
mk: multiple roles covered by
this
... multiple roles covered by the aria spec
... been there since 1.0
... not new
stefan: could be a valid pattern
for 1.1 roles
... in practices interesting that browsers which support
multiple roles support the new ones
mk: ex 15 is least compelling to
me
... a span that displays an image
... is not text
... should be announced as a single charcter which is a
heart.
stefan: a character which represents an image
mk: if the image is a heart then
should be announced as heart image
... the use case is the one where you are trying to create an
alternative experience for text which is being read aloud
... if know for a fact that text is read aloud and know that
the presentation is not important
... stickers/emojis atc. the user requests them to be read as
meanings not images
<joanie> scribe: joanie
JN: I pasted an example from the adobe page.
JN: They read as $999 a
month.
... If they put a text on it, it would read so much better.
MK: Correct, but they could also add a screen reader decimal place.
JN: And hide it offscreen?
MK: You could do that.
JN: Hiding offscreen is a cheesy hack.
MK: Whether or not it is, it's
become commonly done.
... Though there may be better ways.
JN: The static role is that way.
MK: You're just trying to insert
a decimal point. We don't need an entire role which smashes a
subtree to insert a decimal point.
... But I'm still more concerned about how this removes
information and seems to be pointing others in that
direction.
... It encourages that.
... This makes me nervous.
... Imagine there's a text book, and the teacher asks, "Class,
how do you think the use of images in this text is relevant to
the author's message?"
<janina> Have to go, Sorry!
MK: And whether you use a braille display or synthesized speech, you'll be surprised that there's even an image there.
JN: How is that different from what we currently have?
MK: They'll have to jump through many extra hoops.
JN: When an icon font is used, there is already hidden text.
Stefan: Icon fonts with aria-label is very common.
BG: I haven't seen the example. Are you saying there's a span?
<jamesn> <price class=" plan_cost pro">
<jamesn> <span class="superscript">US$</span><span class="priceWithoutSymbolAndCents">9</span><span class="superscript cents">99</span><span class="per_month ">/mo</span>
<jamesn> </price>
MK: All these are a single span, but the way it's written, you could put an entire table in there and replace it with a single word.
Stefan: That's already the case
with ARIA 1.0.
... If you want only a portion read, you could use a container
role and aria-label.
MK: This could replace the body
the way the spec is written.
... There is no other role or property which could hide
everything.
BG: I had a client where aria-hidden was misapplied to body content and everything was gone.
MK: But aria-hidden is pretty
explicit and clear. That's not the case with static.
... I'm not happy with this without .... Part of me is thinking
we're trying to provide an alternative, audio-specific
presentation.
<jamesn> MK: what we are trying to do is provide an alternative presentation for things
<jamesn> MK: what happens with unicode characters on braille displays
<scribe> scribe: jamesn
MK: want to better understand the
braille consequences
... biggest asks is that the screen reader can get to the
original content without the static role... The original
content needs to stay in the tree
BG: guaranteed to me misued
jd: static was a way to solve the
name
... static content is not interactive
mk: I don't remember reading anything about it being ignored if there are focusable elements
jd: can't do a must here
Authors SHOULD limit the use of the static role to content representing words or phrases. As a general rule, if the content would be deemed too long for use as a heading or label, authors SHOULD NOT use the static role.
Authors SHOULD NOT use the static role on interactive elements such as widgets or links, or on the ancestors of such elements. If an element with a role of static is, or contains content that is, focusable or otherwise interactive, user agents MUST ignore the normal effect of the role and expose the element with implicit native semantics in order to ensure that the element is both understandable and operable.
mk: that is what i was looking for
bg: clear to me from the spec side
jd: I had serious problems with
it. I rewrote it to make sense to me
... as a screen reader developer I could live with it
mk: for a screen reader user - would I be able to read with my braille display letter by letter or would it do the way screen readers do images.
jd: should be like an image
mk: can navigate the alt text but
not image. Here you wouldn't hear it is an anything
... need a UA must related to how it is rendered in the a11y
tree. The text says it but there is no must
bg: remember talking about this last year with rich and joseph. remember them saying how it would act in browsers... saying it needs to be copyable as if it were regular text
may impact how screen readers do this... due to difference in role types is why there are pauses
mk: if it is flattened as part of
plain text then the browsers need to provide a text node in the
accessibility tree that contains the label
... there is a bit of a problem here - if example 15 for
example... need to communicate that there is an image there
jd: there is no image
... there is a unicode charatcer there
mk: need to retain that
information
... semantically the right way is role=img
aria-label=heart
... the out loud reading presentation is to replace the image
with the text string
... for some of these use cases - it is open for
interpreation
... author used the unicode charatcer rather than typing out
love
... completely suppressing that content
bg: completely suppressing that
content
... one fo the problems on touch screens is that it breaks by
role type
wants it seamless
mk: in the modern world with
stickers and emojis etc.
... screen readers are in the 80's and worth a discussion
amongst screen reader devs and users
... reading my kids texts - they are a PITA to read at
times
... due to how kids write these days - where thoughts are a
mixture of presentations
... screen readers are falling short of what they need to be
doing.
... don't want to fix a fundamental screen reader problem by
hiding info which could be relevant to the user
... dont have consensus
jd: dont have consensus
... what are the next steps
mk: think we need to be thinking
about the problem we are solving and whether we are solving 1
problem and creating 10
... don't want us to go down that path
jd: is there a formal objection
coming - if so that is probably the answer
... or could you make changes in order to make it work
mk: not sure.
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.152 of Date: 2017/02/06 11:04:15 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: Irssi_ISO8601_Log_Text_Format (score 1.00) Found embedded ScribeOptions: -final *** RESTARTING DUE TO EMBEDDED OPTIONS *** Present: Joanmarie_Diggs jamesn matt_king janina Stefan MichaelC Irfan Regrets: Jon_Gunderson Found Scribe: jamesn Inferring ScribeNick: jamesn Found Scribe: joanie Inferring ScribeNick: joanie Found Scribe: jamesn Inferring ScribeNick: jamesn Found Scribe: joanie Inferring ScribeNick: joanie Found Scribe: jamesn Inferring ScribeNick: jamesn Scribes: jamesn, joanie ScribeNicks: jamesn, joanie Found Date: 11 Jan 2018 People with action items: WARNING: IRC log location not specified! (You can ignore this warning if you do not want the generated minutes to contain a link to the original IRC log.)[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]