Internationalization Working Group TPAC 2017

06 Nov 2017



addison, Richard, Fuqiao, (xfq), David, Singer, (dsinger), Jeff, J, Junichi
Addison Phillips


<addison> https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/2017TPACAgenda

<r12a> currently deciding on agenda order

<addison> addison to request time of html/webplatform to discuss universal acceptance

<scribe> scribenick: xfq

<chaals> [I will look at webplat/html agenda for that, but think we can do it]

<jeff> https://www.w3.org/2017/Talks/tpac-slides/tpac2017-i18n/#

r12a: you mentioned you would be on Unicode board, David

dsinger: right

r12a: we're finding language experts in the Unicode community
... CLDR - Unicode Common Locale Data Repository
... it collects dates, times, and other locale-specific data

<r12a> https://www.unicode.org/cldr/charts/latest/summary/root.html

r12a: it summarizes what locales are available

dsinger: the Unicode folks are trying to improve the CLDR tools

<addison> coverage data in the release announcement: http://blog.unicode.org/2017/11/cldr-version-32-released.html

r12a: how can we access the people who provided the info in CLDR?
... @@@ has an extensive network of people
... @@@ are talking about including counter-styles info in CLDR

<addison> https://www.w3.org/TR/predefined-counter-styles/

addison: if you click "Arabic", you can see there are many kinds of Arabic counter styles

<addison> https://www.w3.org/TR/css-counter-styles-3/#limited-chinese

r12a: there are some counter styles that do not follow the usual algorithm, documented in the CSS spec
... would it make sense to make an extension of BCP 47 for counter sytles?

<addison> thanks

<r12a> descriptions of how 'drop caps' work isn't really cldr-ish

addison: it would be useful to gather information from the CLDR people, even if it doesn't end up in CLDR
... gathering information for the gap analysis
... we've already see the value in our *lreq work
... to be more formal about it is useful, but it takes hours
... I suggest that we take effort to contact these folks

<r12a> http://w3c.github.io/typography/gap-analysis/language-matrix.html

addison: The *lreq way was to ask the people to write everything about the language
... there's another way: use the gap analysis as a basis

<r12a> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-discuss/wiki/Analysing-support-for-text-layout-on-the-Web

r12a: I mentioned the document (in the link above) in the i18n WG teleconference
... the information in the gap analysis was not easy to find
... especially in the English-speaking community

<chaals> [WebPlatform can discuss the HTML email issue for 15 minutes thursday morning under HTML]

r12a: It's better for people in the layout task forces to say what the need is
... I think it's a better approach than our previous way
... something like a coherent system

dsinger: meaning of the colors?

r12a: question mark means we don't know the requirements are
... light green means work needed for advance publishing
... orange means work still needed for basic features
... red means it prevents effective use of the language in web pages

dsinger: we need help about these question marks, obviously

addison: agreed, also need help about other table cells

<addison> Malgasy -> Malagasy

dsinger: what does the circles mean (instead of squares)?

r12a: It means even the English language does not support it, for example, the pagination features

<addison> https://w3c.github.io/typography/

<addison> https://w3c.github.io/typography/#text_decoration

r12a: If you look at the International text layout and typography index document, you can see how layout features are supported
... the idea is from fantasai
... it links to the *lreq documents, CSS specs, tests, and some GitHub resources
... we have "requests for information", but don't always get answers
... that's why we need experts
... we also have the type samples document
... it lists pictures in various scripts/languages

<addison> @chaals: thanks, can you give an approximate time for us to come? Or will you do so when the agenda is firmed up?

<r12a> https://w3c.github.io/type-samples/

<chaals> [9.30 am - it is on the agenda: https://github.com/w3c/WebPlatformWG/issues/94]

r12a: we can answer questions in the AC meeting

addison: and we can explain why it is beneficial to the membership

r12a: we can make a sorted table, showing many people speak the languages, to show the AC reps the commercial interests
... but I'm hesitant to do that, because e.g., Mongolian has only 2.5 million speakers, but it has some major problems

dsinger: What's the problem with Mongolian encoding?

[r12a explains with the whiteboard]

<addison> adjourning for coffee for 15 minutes, topic on return: charmod-norm

<addison> http://w3c.github.io/i18n-drafts/articles/inline-bidi-markup/index.en

<r12a> https://www.w3.org/International/articles/inline-bidi-markup/index

<r12a> https://www.w3.org/International/articles/inline-bidi-markup/index#quick

<r12a> https://www.w3.org/International/articles/inline-bidi-markup/index#uc5

r12a: This is a very long and complicated article

[r12a explains some background info to the scribe]

r12a: the CSS Shim is not really needed
... I spoke to the Safari folks during last TPAC about supporting the feature (flipping the switch)
... nothing has happened yet
... I'd also like to talk with the Edge folks this week
... the seperation of HTML 4 and 5 techniques are not needed anymore

<addison> ACTION: richard to add text to inline-bidi-markup saying more strongly why not to use the bdo element

<trackbot> Created ACTION-678 - Add text to inline-bidi-markup saying more strongly why not to use the bdo element [on Richard Ishida - due 2017-11-13].

<addison> ACTION: richard to send inline-bidi-markup for wide review

<trackbot> Created ACTION-679 - Send inline-bidi-markup for wide review [on Richard Ishida - due 2017-11-13].

<r12a> http://w3c.github.io/i18n-drafts/articles/inline-bidi-markup/index.en#uc5

dsinger: so what happens with <span dir=x>text1<span>text2<span dir=y>?

r12a: @@

dsinger: I don't get the isolation if I don't add the dir attribute?

addison: yes

r12a: yes
... that's what the article explains

[Junichi-san asks a question about writing mode in Japanese, with the whiteboard]

<r12a> https://www.w3.org/International/articles/vertical-text/

<r12a> https://www.w3.org/International/articles/vertical-text/index#upright-latin

jay: Great. Thank you!

<addison> (break for lunch)

r12a: What brought you to the i18n meeting today, Junichi-san?

jay: We're interested in digital publishing

<addison> (returned from lunch; next topic is Charmod-Norm)

<addison> https://www.w3.org/2017/Talks/tpac-slides/tpac2017-i18n/#2

<r12a> good tips on accessible emoji: https://tink.uk/accessible-emoji/

<r12a> https://goo.gl/tjSdk4

<r12a> pagination with CSS 1.30pm tues

<addison> (and returned from visiting #pwg

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: richard to add text to inline-bidi-markup saying more strongly why not to use the bdo element
[NEW] ACTION: richard to send inline-bidi-markup for wide review

Summary of Resolutions

[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.152 (CVS log)
$Date: 2017/11/07 01:45:44 $

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

[Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.152  of Date: 2017/02/06 11:04:15  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: Irssi_ISO8601_Log_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/UA/universal acceptance/
Succeeded: s/chaals, can you clarify?//
Succeeded: s/Monolian/Mongolian/
Present: addison Richard Fuqiao (xfq) David Singer (dsinger) Jeff J Junichi
Found ScribeNick: xfq
Inferring Scribes: xfq

WARNING: No "Topic:" lines found.

Agenda: https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/2017TPACAgenda

WARNING: No date found!  Assuming today.  (Hint: Specify
the W3C IRC log URL, and the date will be determined from that.)
Or specify the date like this:
<dbooth> Date: 12 Sep 2002

People with action items: richard

WARNING: No "Topic: ..." lines found!  
Resulting HTML may have an empty (invalid) <ol>...</ol>.

Explanation: "Topic: ..." lines are used to indicate the start of 
new discussion topics or agenda items, such as:
<dbooth> Topic: Review of Amy's report

WARNING: IRC log location not specified!  (You can ignore this 
warning if you do not want the generated minutes to contain 
a link to the original IRC log.)

[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]