<scribe> scribe: Jim

Update from ACT TF

wilco: creating new examples. more info end of august
... publishing 2nd draft

LVTF and MATF SC https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/sc_august2017/

Popup

https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/sc_august2017/results#xlvt

<Joshue108> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/75

joc: SteveR is SC manager

<steverep> https://rawgit.com/w3c/wcag21/popup-interference_ISSUE-75/guidelines/#popup-interference

<steverep> SC Text Except where the visual presentation of a popup is controlled by the user agent and is not modified by the author, all of the following are true when a popup is visible: • Trigger: The Popup does not obscure any part of its trigger. • Hover: If the popup is triggered via pointer hover, then the pointer may be moved onto the popup without loss of popup visibility. • Focus: The Popup remains visible while its trigger or any of its components hav[CUT]

<chriscm> Does popup have a formal definition that distinguishes it from a modal?

sr: popups - things that occur on hover or focus. exception is title attribute

<chriscm> thx

<laura> popup (and trigger) definition: https://rawgit.com/w3c/wcag21/popup-interference_ISSUE-75/guidelines/terms/21/popup.html

dmc: ok with new wording for draft. consult UA for more accurate wording

<Detlev> Josh your audio is disintegrating

sr: discusses 'trigger'
... trigger in SC will link to def

<Kathy> I am still not clear what trigger is

kimd: not clear on popup. how is different from modal or slide out.

sr: become visible on hover or focus. modal - not covered. it is a change of focus.

<Zakim> Joshue, you wanted to ask if there is a relationship between visible focus SC and this?

sr: if you have to click it, it is not covered by this SC

joc: relation to visible focus?

sr: distinction yes. button changing color is not a popup.

detlev: concern, def of popup. think modal (ok, cancel). those could cover content. need to make clear that popup is 'transient' on focus or hover.

<chriscm> Is there a better word than popup?

<chriscm> +1 to popover!

sr: some confusion with popup. there is no consistent word. perhaps "popover"

<Detlev> or just spell out "content revealed by hover of focusing interactive controls"

dmc: popup on hover?

<chriscm> tooltip?

joc: concern with creating new terms.

<Detlev> custom tooltip

<Detlev> Alex you are very quiet

al: terminology issue. term of art. popup is a window. lots of confusion. need a different term.
... what are you trying to say ...'visual presentation controlled by user agent...."\

<KimD> *I'm getting a lot of background noise - it's louder than the speakers - is anyone else getting this?

<gowerm> +1 to "reduce" language

<bruce_bailey> I want to say thanks for the work going into addressing this issue. I have never been able to write it up as a requirement. This is getting us very close!

joc: change wording "reduce popup interference" make a positive statement.

<Zakim> bruce_bailey, you wanted to ask if “trigger” can be taken out of definition for pop-up?

bb: popup cause lots of problems. glad to see work. concern with definition and definition of "trigger"

mb: +1 to "reduce interference"
... if you have to press enter or click on something then doesn't qualify.
... this is intended for authors creating 'non-persistant information' on the screen so they don't interfer with other information

<bruce_bailey> +1 to MG phrasing suggestion

<gowerm> "non-persistent information" is one of the ways we defined what you are talking about. It IS hard to define this, but I think it can be clarified both in definition and in Understanding doc.

jw: to get right... need the good definition. need clarity. clearly describe behaviors. otherwise a tight SC

cm: we will be redefining 'popup' - modal, etc.

<Detlev_> +1 to tooltip

<gowerm> Reduce Tooltip Interference?

<bruce_bailey> +1 to “tooltip” definition being cited

cm: perhaps 'tooltip'... reads dictionary definition. then intent will be very clear

<david-macdonald> popover in Bootstrap is not triggered on hover https://www.w3schools.com/bootstrap/bootstrap_popover.asp

joc: tooltip has lots of baggage.

cm: perhaps, but makes intent CLEAR. intent is paramount

<bruce_bailey> I think problem with using “tooltip” is that most people think that means text.

<bruce_bailey> Long textual tool tips can be a problem.

al: what is "visual presentation" add to the SC.

<Greg> You cannot use the term tooltip *instead of* popup because tooltip is just one example of a a popup.

<Joshue108> +1 to Bruce

<Joshue108> But I can see why Chris supports the idea...

<bruce_bailey> Tooltips with images seem to be the more problematic case in my experience.

<chriscm> @Greg: I agree with the issues with tooltip, but I think overly specific is better than overly general.

sr: visual presentation is a defined glossary term. info is present to the user. it is about the info on the screen not the code. so title is controlled by the UA. other popups

<Greg> @chriscm, if you limit the SC to apply only to tooltips, you'll be losing the majority of the benefit to users--all those other examples of transient information won't be covered.

dmc: trying to distinguish or exempt the "title" attribute.

<chriscm> @Greg: We could start with tooltip for clarity and then expand on it, to encourage understanding.

<Greg> Title attribute is already exempted as the UI is under the control of the user agent, not the content.

al: will exempting @title, does is scope other things out?

<Greg> @chriscm, I'd give tooltip as an example of a popup or non-persistent information or whatever term we use, but not redefine the term tooltip to be more inclusive than its common usage.

al: devs will know know that this language refers to @title. too obscure

<chriscm> @Greg: I could copy and paste that sentence with the word popup...

sr: need technology independent ways of stating this.

<Zakim> Joshue, you wanted to ask if use of tooltip etc would also cover MegaMenus?

dmc: tooltip=title. we want to break association

<Detlev_> custom tooltip?

<david-macdonald> "Custom tooltip" might work??

<chriscm> ... informative overlay ...

joc: e.g megamenu, trigger and have a huge change of display. this could be very useful. concern with restrictions having 'tooltip' language.
... like popup or popover.

<laura> Perkins example: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/low-vision-a11y-tf/wiki/index.php?title=Metadata_On_Hover&oldid=3281#Perkins

dmc: context menu

<david-macdonald> popover in Bootstrap is not triggered on hover https://www.w3schools.com/bootstrap/bootstrap_popover.asp

sr: happy to do popover instead of popup. not menu. not tooltip - implies being small. concerned with large tooltips.

<bruce_bailey> +1 if this SC can cover mega-menus, but can live without that

<Greg> What about sites that have a panel that displays help text for whichever control has focus. Most users would not call that a tooltip because it's not popping up, yet I think it should be covered by this SC.

sr: megamenus are a problem.

<Joshue108> +10 to this covering MegaMenus

<kirkwood> refrences in UX: “pop up window” in an information item ususally and a “pop up menu” is an interaction element of the page. never heard of pop over

<gowerm> Reduce Popup Interference

<bruce_bailey> +1 to what SR says about issues and use of “popover” versus “tooltip”.

<chriscm> popover: a light muffin made from a thin batter, which rises to form a hollow shell when baked.

joc: need a suitable term

<david-macdonald> "context hover"??

<steverep> Definitions on Stack Exchange https://ux.stackexchange.com/questions/90336/whats-the-difference-between-a-modal-popup-popover-and-lightbox

jw: the definition is pretty clear. associated content is distinct from trigger content. don't understand def quibbling.

<steverep> +1 to Jason echoing my thoughts on the definition

jw: if a different term, still need to read the definition.

<bruce_bailey> My quibble with definition as-is that both the deffinition and SC use “trigger”. It is a bit recursive.

jw: whatever UA does author has no control of. may make authors use @title more.
... make sure definition picks what SC is covering. make sure it is complete. definition determines conformance. it also defines "trigger"

<Detlev_> +1 to reduce

<Greg> +1 to changing title to include "Reduce"

<Joshue108> +1 to putting 'Reduce'..

<gowerm> Reduce Popup Interference

mg: 1. add reduce to short name? any issues

dmc: try to keep them short

<KimD> +1 to more meaningful title

<david-macdonald> -1

<gowerm> +1

<Wilco> -1

joc: add Reduce to short name

<steverep> -1, change interference instead

<laura> +1 to reduce or even eliminate

+1

<chriscm> +1 Reduce Popup Interference

<Greg> I support SC titles being imperative statements where possible, rather than just noun phrases

<Alex> -1

<MelanieP> +1

<kirkwood> +1

joc: need a verb to qualify the short name

<Mike_Pluke> +1

<marcjohlic_> +1

<Rachael> +1

mg: seems reduce works
... suggest we get this out there. Are we missing anything...other ramification. this mitigates bad design decisions on "non-persistant" information

<Detlev_> +1

<gowerm> +1 ready for draft with editor's note

joc: good feed back on adding REduce

<Alex> -1

<Joshue108> +1 to add

<laura> +1

joc: add to draft

<kirkwood> +1

+1

<bruce_bailey> +1 that SC is ready for draft

<chriscm> +1

<Greg> +1 for draft with editor's note, as it does still need some work

<Rachael> +1

<Kathy> +1 but we need to adjust the definitions and language

sr: putting reduce makes it too long. change interference. seems a non issue when related to other SC

<Zakim> bruce_bailey, you wanted to paste in conditions

<bruce_bailey> The [content which becomes visible only when associated content, called the trigger, gains focus or pointer hover] does not obscure any part of its trigger.

<bruce_bailey> If the [content which becomes visible only when associated content, called the trigger, gains focus or pointer hover] is triggered via pointer hover, then the pointer may be moved onto the popup without loss of popup visibility.

bb: don't think there is a definition recursion problem

<bruce_bailey> The [content which becomes visible only when associated content, called the trigger, gains focus or pointer hover] remains visible while its trigger or any of its components have focus, unless the user takes an explicit action to close the popup.

bb: think it works as is. good job.

joc: any objections to putting in draft?

al: difference between this a previous question?

<Greg> Will concerns that have not been addressed be tracked by the SC manager even after it goes out for wider review, or will we be expected to re-submit them later?

al: the text needs work. I object to putting in draft

<Joshue108> What aspects of the text needs work?

al: see previous statements
... concern "control by user agent, not modified by the author" no a suitable term.

dmc: what are other things besides @title are out.
... if the author does something the SC applies, if only UA then it exempted.

al: editors note: This needs work

<chriscm> +0

<KimD> I don't object to the goal of this SC, but I do think the language is muddy

joc: ed note to tease out more info.

<gowerm> Suggested Editor's note: "This SC is intended to cover authoring responsibilities beyond the behaviour of the title attribute, which is controlled by the user agent"

al: problem is unintended consequences. must scope properly.

dmc: want to eliminate @title

bb: not including @title. even though it causes lots of problems.

<Joshue108> +1 to Jason

<laura> Original aim was to cover the title attribute.

jw: do you want to allow exception that breaks lots of things.

<Greg> If we want to limit the size of title strings, that should be a separate SC, as it's not *directly* related to behaviors as everything else about this SC seems to be.

sr: logic... then you go through all WCAG and remove lots of exceptions. these are not under author control

jw: why exceptions for UA behavior.

<Zakim> bruce_bailey, you wanted to reply to Alex’s three Qs from survey

<Detlev_> Josh can't you dial in again - your audio is still breaking up

<david-macdonald> Editors note: The WG is looking for input on how we may word the section "controled by user agent, not modified by the author". Authors don't control native behaviour of the "title" attribute and we are exempting it.

bb: still good enough to go in the draft. disappointed that doesn't cover @title

<Joshue108> I can't WebEx wont let me in :-(

bb: loss of visibility of trigger element. move hover causes disappear of popup.
... SC as drafted is fine. need a different word "popup"
... not happy about not covering @title

<laura> https://jsfiddle.net/obsqynyp/4/

lc: have techniques to cover title attrib. need more input

<Alex> this conversation indicates that we are not clear about what we are saying here

joc: seems most want this in draft. still some issues

<Detlev_> I don't understand you Josh - can't someone else take over?

<chriscm> +1 to Alex's comment.

joc: need work on use cases.

<laura> Marla Runyan's Positioning Tooltips Above Triggers...and Keyboard Accessible Demos: https://jsfiddle.net/obsqynyp/4/

dmc: add ed note. and put in draft

<Greg> @David-Macdonald, I think there are a lot more concerns than the one you listed in your draft editor's note. I would make it a broader disclaimer.

<gowerm> Editors note: The WG is looking for input on how we may word the section "controled by user agent, not modified by the author". We are also looking for input on whether to explicity exclude the title attribute."

<david-macdonald> Editors note: The WG is looking for input on how we may word the section "controlled by user agent, not modified by the author". Authors don't control native behaviour of the "title" attribute and we are exempting it.

cm: Alex comment. confusions will be amplified. agree we need this SC. but we seem not clear .

<steverep> Proposal: Accept as is with an editor's note stating "The working group is considering using a different term than popup to improve understanding, but feel the glossary definition is clear. The group is also open to alternative wording to scope the exception.

joc: leave open. Alex work with Steve on wording. hopefully we get this in.

<Alex> sure

joc: alex will work with steve on wording

<Detlev_> Sorry this does not work with a chair that is inaudible

RESOLUTION: Leave open. Alex to work with Steve on new wording.

<Detlev_> ok

plain language

pointer gestures

https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/sc_august2017/results#xmatf1

<Joshue108> q>

https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/61

al: what is complex?

dmc: anything that is not x,y coordinate.

<Kathy> There was a suggestion posted: https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/196

<Kathy> for those comments

<Detlev_> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/196#issuecomment-292242824

dmc: if OS pinch zoom. if author creates a gesture that takes more than one finger, then authors has too make available a gesture by 1 finger

<david-macdonald> Functionality requiring complex or timed pointer gestures or multi-pointer gestures can also be operated with simple pointer gestures unless the use of multiple fingers and complex gestures is essential or content is operated in a multi-user environment

<bruce_bailey> notes that Detlev response at 196 is not in version of SC in survey

al: how is this addressed in SC? issue... scenarios multipoint interactions.

dmc: there is an exception.

<Detlev_> Functionality requiring complex or timed pointer gestures or multi-pointer gestures can also be operated with simple pointer gestures unless the use of multiple fingers and complex gestures is essential or content is operated in a multi-user environment."

al: text in survey is not valid

detlev: new language for exception

<chriscm> Sorry all need to drop off! Please loop me into external conversations as necessary: chris.mcmeeking@deque.com.

<Greg> How about saying "complex, timed, or multi-point gestures" and make that a link to a glossary entry?

<bruce_bailey> That address the question I put in the survey.

<bruce_bailey> We can use piano app as an example.

al: ok, so far. and new language. management issue.

<Kathy> We could send it to the list or talk on Thursday

<gowerm> +1 to discuss next week; we've barely had discussion here.

detlev: another survey for next week.

dmc: put out now, then CFC additional time to review.

joc: not happy with process. not clear what we are asking people.

detlev: use text from issue 196

kathy: I will update text language in githup
... we will adjust
... its complicated

joc: don't want to force snap decisions.

dmc: hard stop on SCs going in Aug 21

joc: discussing process

jw: issues would be addressed if had proper text

<Zakim> bruce_bailey, you wanted to ask quick question about [COGA] Plain Language question 2 on survey

mg: concern - SC at 2 levels. some mature. some need discussion on language or scope. need to add editors notes and put in draft. some should not be discussed until more mature.

bb: agree with mg. do I make comments on 30 or 41

<bruce_bailey> is coga 30 or 41 ?

<bruce_bailey> I will comment on 30 then.

<bruce_bailey> Okay, 41 then!

al: pointer gestures. duplication.... complex gesture, then later multipoint gesture. they are same thing. makes for confusion.

<gowerm> Functionality requiring timed pointer gestures or multi-pointer gestures can also be operated with simple pointer gestures.

al: complex introduces uncertainty.
... just user multipoint gesture.

<Kathy> can you put in the proposed language?

al: unless the use of multipoint gestures is essential.
... simplifies it

kw: will change wording

mg: see new wording above.

<Kathy> Functionality requiring timed pointer gestures or multi-point gestures can also be operated with simple pointer gestures unless the use of multi-point gestures is essential..

al: single point gestures does not solve time problem

detlev: was floating timing issue in comment but got not responses. your comments would have been helpful.

kw: see new lang above

mg: alex, if we shorten, would it be better.
... non-timed single point

al: need a solution. non-timed single point gesture... only tab or stroke, nothing else

<Kathy> Functionality requiring custom complex gestures can also be operated with simple pointer gestures unless the use of multi-point gestures is essential.

<Joshue108> JA: This is the same issue we were having with tooltip.

dmc: custom gesture written by authors.

<Joshue108> JA: There are custom things done by the author and then things done by the OS.

<gowerm> +1 to observations on etsi scoping

al: this will bleed over into OS.

<Joshue108> +1 to Alex

al: not good. OS needs complex gestures

kw: new wording

<Kathy> Functionality requiring custom complex gestures can also be operated with single point gestures unless the use of complex gestures is essential.

al: single point gestures vs multipoint gestures

<marcjohlic_> +1

<Detlev_> looks fine to me - can we vote on it?

jw: defintions ...

<gowerm> ...can also be operated without complex gestures..."

joc: with new text alex are you ok with this?
... can we put this in the draft

<marcjohlic_> +1 to Kathy's suggested text

<Greg> Can't merely say "without complex gestures" as another SC already requires keyboard methods.

<gowerm> okay

Please PASTE language we are voting on

<Kathy> Functionality requiring custom complex gestures can also be operated with single point gestures unless the use of complex gestures is essential.

<Joshue108> Functionality requiring custom complex gestures can also be operated with single point gestures unless the use of complex gestures is essential.

<david-macdonald> +1

<marcjohlic_> +1

<Detlev_> +1 to Kathy's edit

<laura> +1

<Joshue108> +1

<Kathy> +1

joc: vote please

<kirkwood> +1

<Greg> Sorry, what about timing, is that dropped?

<Mike_Pluke> +1

<gowerm> +1

kw: timed and multipoint are included

<Rachael> +1 w definitions and timed

jw: need time to review

<Greg> -1 as the "can also be operated with single point gestures" does not address timed gestures, while "complex" does

joc: will resurvey

RESOLUTION: leave open resurvey

<Greg> I would say "Functionality requiring custom _complex gestures_ can also be operated with _simple gestures_ unless the use of complex gestures is essential.", with definitions for both terms.

meeting ended.

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