<shawn> https://mit.webex.com/mit/e.php?MTID=m7bd69a85ec402a9d06c38e4c4556ed3a

<shawn> meeting number 646 045 716

Scribe+ erich

User Adaptation SCs and "a mechanism is available" (Alistair) https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-low-vision-a11y-tf/2017Jan/0023.html

AC: There was an assumption I want to call out
... If people override site styles, there are several categories that can fit in
... I've tried to categorize them in to more- or less- disruptive
... Spacing and Font Family are becoming among more disruptive
... Example, selected font size can potentially break some layouts
... If linearization, spacing and font family we are assuming authors are comletely overriding, that's another matter
... We need clarification, work out what the assumption is, and translate from user requirement to a content requirement

<AWK> +AWK

<shawn> [ Shawn thinks about efforts to make the horizontal nav bar work when people increased text a lot or had a small browser window in https://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/people-use-web/ I wonder if that is helpful to think about what uesrs need to do?]

AC: Linearize is on the end where author is completely overriding, Spacing also tends toward complete override

WD: Alastair's summary helps
... May be a case of something like Resize Content

<Joshue108> +Joshue108

JA: To me, we always have issues around wanting large blocks of text vs. text all over the place
... It still comes down to "What is it that you want authors to do?"

AC: In the case of Linearize, it's being written as if the user overrides the layout, it's still usable
... Ex: scripts that use carousels use Javascript, when you try to overwrite, it doesn't know the style sheet. There are techniques that need to be written
... Spacing and Font Family I think are most difficult from this point of view

<Zakim> AWK, you wanted to say that it may also come down to "what can authors not do"

AWK: To add about what you want authors to do, we may also add "what do we want authors to NOT do"
... Ex: authors if you are creating content, do not use XXX format

<shawn> AWK: if XYZ technology doesn't allow alt for images, then telling authors that if you're creating content, then can't use that format

<shawn> [ Shawn - or at leat need an laternative version in another format]

AC: Question for AWK, the Resize Content is an interesting case, mobile browsers don't do layout the same way as desktop browsers
... If we don't have an exemption, there's really nothing an author is able to do to address

AWK: If we had a requirement that did not have that exception, 400% and reflow, what would an author do to meet that on mobile

AC: Nothing an author could do

AWK: Well you can, may not be pretty but possible

AC: Point taken

AWK: This is a question we will be putting out, as to whether or not tolerable

GS: Is considering as a AAA also an option?

AWK: yeah, we can

WD: I understand what AWK is saying, but I think that we would like to get this in to the technology where it ca't be done, and establish normative language

<Wayne> If no mechanism exists to change font family on any user agent for the target technology, then the author is not responsible to create one.

WD: Much of what was missed is Level A

<shawn> [ /me not comfortable with Wayne's exception at this point ( but might be talked into it)]

WD: I think that if we could get to in HTML5 CSS realm to make the changes happen in the right way
... Creative programmers can do disastrous things very innocently

<Zakim> AWK, you wanted to say that I think giving such an exception to less-accessibility-focused user agents is a mistake

AWK: I think that the strength of a SC is when we can say clearly that when you do this, it helps the user.
... If we're saying users need to be able to increase the font size 400% and not have the words wrap, we should say it

<shawn> +1 to not giving technology / user agent exception

<allanj> +1 to not giving technology / user agent exception

AWK: If not, they pull it out and don't have to support
... When we state it unambiguously, if puts pressure to make it happen

<alastairc> q

<allanj> Must meet the user's need.

SH: Wayne ok with not giving an exception?

WD; On first public working draft, I agree with Andrew

<Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to say that it seems remiss not to ask for 400% where it is (relatively) easy to do.

AC: I cannot see browsers making any changes in how they do layout, and I not seeing a large scale need
... Would rather go in with 400% and an exception we might retire in 2.2, then not get a good SC in to 2.

2.1 not 2.

LC: There is one user agent that does allow spacing in PDF

JA: VIP PDF viewer allows spacing

<laura> http://www.d.umn.edu/~lcarlson/wcagwg/spacing/comments.html#tech

JA: Acrobat Pro AC you can change those too, but at a cost

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to comment on able to do X with this content - OK can't do it on mobile, as long as can in desktop??? (Then maybe best not to have excpetion, just explanation)

<allanj> PDF client VIP-PDF viewer does that

<laura> http://www.d.umn.edu/~lcarlson/wcagwg/spacing/comments.html#support

SH: On VIP Reader, it can only open certain types of files
... Definitely a case where it depends what the user does

<allanj> it also depends what the author does during the creation of the PDF document

<laura> Shawn: VIP PDF Reader can adjust spacing.

WD: if you have completely compliant file, will it work?

SH: I will check. Not every file
... Issue with broad exception vs. specific exception, we need to be sure we word that very carefully, so as not to make it more broad than intended
... Want to double-check, users with medium low-vision are not going to be doing a lot of reading withmost mobile phones anyway. If content is provided in HTML, which can be accessed via desktop browser, is it okay to not have it not mobile accessible

AWK: I see a huge 'slippery slope' problem

<allanj> or a vr headset, or heads up display

<shawn> good point

AWK: We don't have data to say 'screens larger than xxx..." so we really can't say

JO: we are limited out of the box as to what we can do, we can be in 'not as bad' situation

<alastairc> The exception text for resize: "If the user-agent fits the layout to the viewport and does not provide a means of reflowing content, two dimensional scrolling is exempt."

AC: Worth bearing in mind that Zoom and Reflow work well on desktop is because a mechanism was provided

<allanj> ... media query

AC: I do take the slippery slope argument to a certain extent
... Because there is a completely different way that authors approach layout for desktop vs. mobile browsers

<allanj> [reflow works well for text and applications ... if you can use a mobile view on a desktop screen]

<allanj> authors have control of that

WD: I did a calculation for a 4.7in cell phone screen, if you took print and did a media query and stuck it on that screen, it would be .36 times of a 13" screen
... net outcome running the numbers, it would be equivalent of enlarging the laptop display to 500%
... asking for 400% on that phone would like 2000% on a laptop or desktop

JA: Is there better wording we should be using Josh and Andrew?

JO: I don't think we're going to redefine the terminology

<alastairc> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/58

JO: If we're finding that it's not working or people simply aren't getting it, we'd need to find way to do better

<Joshue108> +1 yup this is a good idea

AC: There are some techniques we need to pin down to support this

<laura> “Mechanism is available" language that gives a misconception that widgets are required.

<allanj> jo: safari reader view

JO: Distinction here is user overriding the author preference
... I think it's good, taking user control

AC: It does seem this mechanism language isn't enough at the moment

JO: Anything created or chosen as a user preference would seem good, and should be supported and labeled as such

<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say we need to address these misunderstandings - now within AG WG *and* in the documentation (Understanding, etc.) for others

<Joshue108> can I ask how the user will activate this single column view?

SH: Step 1, we need to clarify some of these things and get people to understand and share in them

<alastairc> NB: I think there is a lot of work to do, to define how to test and have a baseline of the user-agent end.

WD: I think we want to avoid the word "preference" as we're talking about needs here

<alastairc> Josh: Try the right-hand link on here: https://alastairc.ac/tests/layouts/pixels.html

WD: Spacing, Font Family and Font Size, if you take a page and make it bigger as-is, you'll need to make it much bigger if you don't alter Spacing, Font Family, etc.
... Color can also be very influential in that
... These are like really being able to read vs. catching a snippet here and a snippet there
... At the element level, most of the supports for 1.3.1 will do the job for most of these

<Joshue108> Ok - I see the kind of think that Alastair has developed in this example - that's good.

WD: Most menus where I've run in to problems do fixed pixel rates that don't account for growth of size of elements in menu

<Joshue108> But if that isn't a mechanism, are we asking for some HTML language level changes to do this?

WD: Even if writing an extension, you have to be able to look at those elements and tell what they're about

<Joshue108> Or is there a preferred term the LVTF have come up for as an alternative to mechanism?

<alastairc> Wayne: try this menu for your testing: https://www.theguardian.com/uk Note that it can scroll horizontally!

WD: I think there really are things that the author can do within context to make certain things possible

JO: Wayne, some things I'm seeing in code suggestions, do you want to see changes in the language / HTML level, I'm confused as to what's being asked

WD: I'm really talking about what authors can do. In HTML there are so many things they can do to break

<laura> CSS !important Spacing Test: http://www.d.umn.edu/~lcarlson/wcagwg/tests/user_styles/important_spacing.html

<alastairc> laura: was the result that it was ok?

<alastairc> i.e. could be over-ridden

WD: You cannot control when someone just drops some new code in the middle with localized stuff that can't be changed

<laura> Yes: in IE and Safari

WD: For color, using background image to carry your color, you have to remove that image

<Glenda> Wayne, can we read your paper on Lexical Enlargement (LexE)?

<laura> alastairc: see results section

JO: Seems to me that Alastairs Linearize page is nice and simple, can this technique be supported to be added in other pages - Linearization?

JA: Other mechanize that is available is Mobile View

AC: To Josh's point about techniques, we do need SC to hang these techniques off of
... Will need a text for when Javascript is using CSS

technique not text

AC: Browser extensions could be among better techniques

JO: Agree on need of SC to hang these off

AC: We have well defined user requirements, so a matter of going through process of hashing out techniques

JA: By requirements do you mean our SC language?

AC: yes

WD: I think Font Family is another example where techniques will help

<alastairc> Note to self: Put the bookmarklet on github so anyone can use or contribute to it.

WD: In a page that isn't changing all the time, if you run a program through it, you will get to elements where visual interface is achieving 1.3.1
... It's unfortunate that we don't have ARIA parameters for people to drop local meaning as to what they're doing
... Font Family: following 1.3.1 is kind of recognizing that the ability to change font family is important to people, even if it wasn't called out in 1.3.1

JO: Requires more discussion, we don't want to break things by changes we make

JA: Any issues to bring up from the SC managers?

GS: I've been mentally struggling with pixel is not a pixel, have gotten stuck and reaching out to Patrick Lauke

AC: If you cannot get Patrick, I have a good handle on it also
... I am listed as being on three, I am on two at the moment

<laura> Issue 78 "Spacing" Report

<laura> http://www.d.umn.edu/~lcarlson/wcagwg/spacing/report.html

<laura> Issue 78 Organized Comments

<laura> http://www.d.umn.edu/~lcarlson/wcagwg/spacing/comments.html

LC: For spacing, I put together report for WCAG group on Tues and have organized comments
... Biggest issue is organizing techniques

<alastairc> Laura: If we take my bookmarklet and convert it to do spacing, we should be able to find issues & therefore techniques quickly.

<allanj> +1 modify Alistair bookmarklet

<allanj> MS Edge removed user stylesheets

<allanj> open item 4

<laura> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/76

<allanj> http://www.tsbvi.edu/technology-items/5343-lvtf

JA: If I print at 300 or 400% you can do that in almost every browser, I found pages where they are broken with overlap text and truncation, which I believe is all in the CSS
... Rewriting the SC a bit to accept whatever author has done, should at least be able to print out without the overlap, breaking
... Tested browsers will go to 200%, but you can go larger by choosing custom

SH: has spacing examples can share

WD: This is almost like small mobile device issues
... What I do with paper is get it to 200% and then use a magifying glass
... That is another device dependent thing that we should think about

<laura> Bye all. Thanks!

<alastairc> allanj: Could you email me those pages?

<alastairc> Wayne: If you come across good examples of things that fail when you adjust font-fam/spacing, please send URLs to me...

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Found Date: 19 Jan 2017
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