Data on the Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference

19 Aug 2016


See also: IRC log


deirdrelee, Caroline, ericstephan, annette_g, yaso, Caroline_, laufer, Richard Ishida


<deirdrelee> hi Phil, just noticed that we don't have minutes for https://www.w3.org/2016/07/29-dwbp-minutes

<deirdrelee> hey yaso, can you join the call?

-> https://www.w3.org/2016/07/29-dwbp-minutes.html Minutes of 29/7

<yaso> Hi Dee,

PROPOSED: Accept minutes of 29 July, 5 August, 12 August

<yaso> I'm joining

<scribe> chair: Dee

<scribe> scribe: PhilA

<scribe> scribeNick: phila

<Caroline> +1

<yaso> 0 (not present)

0 not present

<BernadetteLoscio> +1

<ericstephan> +1 for the 12th

<ericstephan> I will be calling in shortly

RESOLUTION: Accept minutes of 29 July, 5 August, 12 August

<annette_g> sorry I'm late; is there new webex info?

Finalising comments from i18n

<deirdrelee> https://www.w3.org/2013/dwbp/wiki/Status_of_comments_about_the_last_call_working_draft

<yaso> I'll be joining in a few minutes...

<BernadetteLoscio> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-comments/2016Aug/0014.html

BernadetteLoscio: Message to Addison Philipps includes links to previous messages
... Individual messages sent per comment
... Last meeting we decided to send a message including a deadline
... Which I did, still no reply
... Comment 13 on our table is still open
... We discussed... I sent a message to i18n, asking whether we should include locale neutral formats in BP3 or as part of the intro to data fortmats section.
... Action proposed including it in BP3
... I was worried about this as I think locale parameters is different from diffierent from locale-neutral representations
... I think if we have these 2 things in one BP it's going to be difficult to test.
... That's why we didn't yet sdolve this comment

deirdrelee: We need to make a decision oursleves as we can't wait for i18n

<annette_g> sorry, I was muted. I am on.

phila: Is there an i18n doc we can point to about locale-neutral

deirdrelee: He doesn't specify where it can be included

annette_g: Just looking back at what the comment was. He calls out BP3 as an issue, there may be a window there

BernadetteLoscio: I agree with Annette. The ideal solution should be a new BP, but, we don't have time
... And there was no doc to which we can refer
... trying to cover this issue will bring up problems for BP3
... If we include it in the BP it won't be good.

<BernadetteLoscio> http://agreiner.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata

BernadetteLoscio: In the How to test section, you check for human and machine readable forms
... Now we have another test that locale-sensitive data is in a locale-neutral format

deirdrelee: We have this BP that is in the metadata section, but we don't address the locale neutral issue

W3C encourages use of formats that can be used by the widest possible audience and processed most readily by computing systems.

-> https://www.w3.org/TR/encoding/ Encoding

deirdrelee: So that's Berna's suggestion

phila: We can cross link between Data Formats intro and BP3

BernadetteLoscio: We haven't had any reply from the i18n group

deirdrelee: I don't think it's suitable to put it in the text of BP3

phila: Looking at BP13

BernadetteLoscio: We might have the same problem as in BP3 - testing two indepentdent things

annette_g: I don't think the two are all that independent
... In writing BP3, I was trying to cover that. It becomes is the BP reasonable to be in the metadata section if it also covers other stuff
... So it's the location in the doc that might be the problem. It's coherent to talk about locale metadata dn formats

BernadetteLoscio: The way the BP is now, it's not about internationalisation
... That's why I think it should be a new BP

deirdrelee: Your issue Berna seems to be around the testing
... Can we add a sentence to the BP13 without adding to the tests
... There's a lot of info in all the BPs and they're not all tested
... So we can add the info without the test?

BernadetteLoscio: This sounds possible
... It makes more sense than including it in BP3

annette_g: So I want to re-enforce what Antoine said about putting it in the data format section.
... People might think OK I'm using JSON which is locale neutral
... I still think the best way is to make the BP about i18n and not just metadata

<laufer> hi all, greetings from rio.

phila: Talks about mentioning UTF-8

annette_g: I think we all agree that the best way is to write a new BP
... So we're concerned about process

deirdrelee: If we add a new BP, we can do it in a week

BernadetteLoscio: Even if we create this new BP, I don't see where this BP will be in our doc
... We should remember how we created the doc - challenges, requirements etc. That's how we got to the doc. i18n wasn't in our requirements
... How can we now add this in
... It should have been identified before now

deirdrelee: The process we've gone through. We've been asking for feedback.

<annette_g> phil can you clarify the process question? does the process itself prevent us from adding a new BP?

<BernadetteLoscio> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-comments/2016Jul/0028.html

<r12a> https://www.w3.org/Mail/flatten/index?subject=https%3A%2F%2Flists.w3.org%2FArchives%2FPublic%2Fpublic-dwbp-comments%2F2016Jul%2F0028.html&list=public-dwbp-comments

deirdrelee: If it si the case that we could add a BP and that wouldn't upset the process too much.
... That's not a reason to delay the Director's Call
... but can it be done in time?
... IF we can leave it, OK, if we can add a nedw BP, in time, then let's do that

r12a: I wojuld suggest you write to Addison ASAP, he's the person who is/can block this. My guess is that he could go either way.
... Having locale-specific isn't normally a great idea.
... Addision has read it in more detail than me, as has Felix.
... I would rather not take the decision on behalf of the WG at the moment.
... He may well reply if told of the deadline

laufer: Our intro includes importance of standards. Can we extend this. Second, this is an issue about data on the Web, or is it a general one about publishing data?
... I think it's similar to the thing about accuracy
... We decided that this is not an issue about data on the Web

annette_g: Since it's coming from a W3C WG it seems like it has to be web related. It's def a data thing. On the Web makes it international, so I think it is in our scope
... But I also wanted to mention - he was thinking that maybe Addison was thinking that BP 3 is just wrong.
... Maybe that BP 3 is actually wrong
... Shouldn't be giving locale metadat, make data locale-neutral

deirdrelee: We can't go to a Director's call if it's not finished.

<annette_g> would talking to the director help us solve the problem?

<Caroline_> s/metadar/metadata

deirdrelee: Easiest way is to say, we're at the end, we can't capture everything and if we add something to the intro then we're done, with a line under it.
... The doc will never be perfect.
... That said, here's a specific commnet from a W3C group so maybe we need to deal with it.
... I'd be more inclined to address it as fully as possible without causing major disruption.
... Provide locale-neutral, if you don't, provide locale metadata.
... I'm inclined to add sentence to BP13 or the formats intro
... So that the meaning isn't lost, but without causing too much hassle.

Caroline_: Our first option is to put something in the intro to BP3 and reference that and how important it is.

deirdrelee: If we want to address what Addision said directly, we should stick to BP3 which is what he pointed to.
... maybe we should vote

Options are:

1. Add line to BP3

2. Add line to BP13

3. Add line to formats intro

4. Add line to formats intro

4. add line to metadat intro

5. Add a new BP

<yaso_> +1 to deirdrelee

deirdrelee: Reduces options to:

1. Add line to BP3

2. Add a line to the intro of metadata section

3. Add new BP

<BernadetteLoscio> :(

<ericstephan> what about a choice between "adding a line somewhere" or adding a BP?

<deirdrelee> 4. add line to bp13

<laufer> could we have an option 1+2

<deirdrelee> 5. add line to the intro of format section

<annette_g> add new BP

<deirdrelee> 1.

<laufer> sorry, but I think we can talk about this in several options

<ericstephan> 6. Fix BP3 then?

<BernadetteLoscio> +1 to Phil

<annette_g> I'd be happy with updating BP3

<BernadetteLoscio> moving to Data Formats section

<yaso_> As I agree with deirdrelee on keeping this as pragmatic as we can, I'll go for 1 also. \

<laufer> if we say that is to provide neutral locale, I agree with annette that bp3 is wrong

<BernadetteLoscio> :(

<BernadetteLoscio> just to say that I agree with Phil

<BernadetteLoscio> changing to a new BP and putting in the data format section

<Caroline_> let's make a proposal for that above?

<ericstephan> Sorry have to go.... +1 deirdrelee

PROPOSED: Update BP3 to include description of locale-neutral formats and move to formats section. Locale metadata as last resort

<annette_g> +1 to Deirdre

<BernadetteLoscio> +1

<yaso_> ?

<Caroline_> +1

<ericstephan> +1 to proposal

<annette_g> +1

<laufer> we will need to renumber all bps...

<laufer> +1

Number is automatic


<Zakim> Caroline_, you wanted to ask if Annette is okay to making that changes

Caroline_: Is Annette willing to help with that?

<laufer> I know phil, but all our comments will be in some sense outdated...

annette_g: I can help but not until Tuesday

<BernadetteLoscio> ;)

RESOLUTION: Update BP3 to include description of locale-neutral formats and move to formats section. Locale metadata as last resort

phila: Talks a bit about the CR call

deirdrelee: I'll be on the call. I'll give an intro and then hand over to the editors
... So we should have all the links

<BernadetteLoscio> great! ;)

deirdrelee: Is that OK Carol and Berna?

<BernadetteLoscio> yes ;)

<BernadetteLoscio> thanks a lot!!!!

<BernadetteLoscio> :)

<BernadetteLoscio> ;)

<yaso_> Great! Bye all!

<BernadetteLoscio> thank you!!!!

<BernadetteLoscio> bye bye!!!

<laufer> bye all...

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

  1. Accept minutes of 29 July, 5 August, 12 August
  2. Update BP3 to include description of locale-neutral formats and move to formats section. Locale metadata as last resort
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.144 (CVS log)
$Date: 2016/08/19 14:17:58 $