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<scribe> scribe: nigel
nigel: I think we're mainly covering TTML stuff today. Any other business to cover?
group: no other business
action-472?
<trackbot> action-472 -- Nigel Megitt to Make sure there is a ttml2 issue for considering adjustment of inline region semantics -- due 2016-06-16 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/472
nigel: I did this, by adding https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/168
close action-472
<trackbot> Closed action-472.
action-443?
<trackbot> action-443 -- Glenn Adams to Prepare a document showing mapping arib ruby extension features to ttml2 for use as a liaison document to arib. -- due 2015-11-05 -- OPEN
<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/443
glenn: Can we reword this somehow - I think it's low priority.
nigel: Are all the ARIB ruby extension features mapped to something in TTML2?
glenn: I know on the ARIB set
they had support for a marquee functionality which I have
... not had a chance to investigate its semantics. That would
be the only one.
... My hope is that we could map that to set or animate without
any additional features.
nigel: I think that's a dependency then.
glenn: That's the only feature in
the ARIB extensions that I have not accounted for
explicitly.
... I have also not checked if the ARIB spec has added any new
features. Probably a year and a half since I reviewed in
Japanese.
nigel: I think they did an English translation too.
glenn: I did not use that.
nigel: In that case the dependency is on https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/119
action-443: [Meeting 2016-07-14] There is a dependency on https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/119 before commencing this.
<trackbot> Notes added to action-443 Prepare a document showing mapping arib ruby extension features to ttml2 for use as a liaison document to arib..
nigel: I've changed the due date
on this action to 26th August.
... Let's move to the recent issues on github
glenn: There's an open PR: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/pull/167
nigel: I made one comment on this re the use of the term absolute profile designator.
glenn: That's a good point - I'll
try to fix this.
... Does the Repository Manager run any other checks than the
IPR one?
nigel: I don't believe so - it
might be useful to use a Continuous Integration tool to
check
... that each commit results in a successful build of the HTML.
Would that be of interest?
glenn: I'd consider it, however I
have to go through the generate ED process each time I edit
anyway
... so it's not really needed right now.
nigel: Thanks for that PR. I encourage everyone else to have a look and review it.
glenn: By the way, with the PR I
intend only to modify the XML source and not the HTML
... version, so that means that if anyone wants to review then
they need to run the tool
... to generate the HTML themselves. The reason I don't want to
do it in the branch is
... that then I would have to manually merge the XML only. I
don't want to regenerate the HTML
... each time because it makes a lot of minor modifications in
the file that are not visible
... such as ID generations and timestamps. If we have multiple
commits it would likely
... make automatic merging complicated.
nigel: This suggests an elegant
solution that we may not have time or inclination to pursue
right now
... would be to generate the HTML only in the gh-pages
branch.
... For this kind of change I think most folk could review just
the XML change. I was
... able to check out the branch, run ant (see https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/blob/gh-pages/spec/README.md)
to make the HTML, and review that locally.
glenn: https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/164
... In TTML1 (not SE) we did not use Root Temporal Extent, but
External Time Interval
... and it was defined by the external processing context. I'm
reviewing notes to understand
... why we changed it. That review will have an impact on what
we recommend.
... There are some problems with circular definitions in the
current text, in how the body
... element references the root temporal interval, and the root
temporal interval references
... the body definition. Maybe the suggestion to redo some of
the terminology will be appropriate.
nigel: Yes, it certainly is complex!
glenn: Maybe the reason for
differences in interpretation is because we have
different
... understandings of what is meant by the term. For example in
my mental model the
... idea of a media offset seemed to make sense, and in Nigel's
it made less sense.
nigel: Indeed, it is extremely problematic!
glenn: We need to resolve that pretty soon.
pal: Nigel, can you summarise what you mean by media offset and what the problems are?
nigel: It's a value that is used
to add or subtract from media time expressions in the
... documents to arrive at some other timeline. My problem with
it is that it creates an
... ambiguity with other ways of solving this problem that
exist, such as in ISOBMFF.
glenn: It's similar to the referenceBegin that's in N.2 https://www.w3.org/TR/ttml1/#time-expression-semantics-media
pal: I don't understand why we need this. If you want to offset why not just modify all the times in the document?
nigel: By the way, you could just
modify the effective value of referenceBegin just by
... adding a begin attribute to the body element.
glenn: You can also put times on
style and region elements, which are not descendants
... of body, so that wouldn't be complete.
nigel: I'd like to mention the
Safe Crop Area proposal.
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2016Jun/0003.html
... [describes the problem statement and proposed solution from
the attached PDF document]
glenn: I wonder if we could
achieve this using a convention on the region, such as an
... attribute that designates a region as specifying a safe
crop area. It would be a little
... simpler because there are already a lot of tools and
parsers that already process regions.
nigel: That could be made to
work: this is not about where to position relative to the
... root container region though, but about which parts of the
root container region must
... be shown. Also you would have to go a long way down parsing
the document to find
... this information if present, which would not be ideal.
glenn: I see, yes, you're
probably right about that.
... In terms of which namespace to put this in, my rule of
thumb is that if a piece
... of information is used formally by the processor in some
way then it should be in the
... parameter namespace rather than in metadata.
nigel: I agree.
... This proposal defines some processor behaviour so I would
put it into the parameter namespace.
glenn: We already have one
parameter, pixel aspect ratio, which has never really been
used,
... and one might ask if there are any semantics for what a
processor should do with that.
... Up until now people have wondered if it is metadata.
nigel: I think it is a parameter
since extent and pixel aspect ratio tell you the shape of
the
... root container region, i.e. the display aspect ratio.
glenn: That's true, but now we
have display aspect ratio there's over-constraint, so we
... need to define what gives if they don't agree.
nigel: Agreed - I thought we had some text on order of precedence.
glenn: We may do. The text needs to be changed to say Display Aspect Ratio in place of Storage Aspect Ratio.
nigel: There's an issue I
believe. https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/30
... Any other comments on SCA?
glenn: We should also factor in Mike's comments with the SMPTE documents.
nigel: Thanks for the reminder.
My reading of those is that the documents Mike referenced
... explain the background for how this problem situation can
occur but are orthogonal
... to the SCA proposal - the SCA proposal does not duplicate
the active format descriptor
... semantics but provides for dealing with some of the
scenarios it can result in.
... Returning to https://github.com/w3c/ttml2/issues/166
(duplicate designators)
... is there any semantic ambiguity introduced by having
duplicates?
glenn: Interesting. If you have
any(X Y X), and on the first attempt to resolve X you get
... an access error, and proceed to Y and get "not available"
too then you would proceed
... to "X" again which now may be available. Because there's a
sequential access operation
... there you might end up with different semantics. From a
cleanliness perspective, we
... also don't allow attributes on XML elements with duplicated
information even though
... you could argue that they're semantically equivalent. I
prefer not to allow duplicates
... unless I can think of some kind of rational interpretation
of it. That was my conclusion.
... Further, we've already implemented that semantic in TTV
(not yet checked in).
nigel: Well you may want to respond to my comment asking this on the github issue.
glenn: Ok
nigel: Thanks all, we're out of issues to discuss for today, so I'll adjourn. [adourns meeting]
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