Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference -- 23 Jun 2016

<Kathy> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/66524/MATF-062216/

Kathy: fill in questionnaire to find out what dates work this summer

<patrick_h_lauke> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/66524/MATF-062216/

<Kathy> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/66524/MATF-062116/results

Survey

feedback from WCAG working group

Kathy: First survey just some feedback. overall a lot of the feedback, and the reason I wanted to start with this is a lot of feedback around touch and pointer with the difference. Discussion – can we just a touch is required. I'll put out another survey later.
... if you haven't read through the comments, we'll give people a few minutes to do so. Read through the first few. I want to have a conversation about pointer and what were doing. We focused on touch and then threw in pointer. A lot of the comments we got back from the working group were around what we meant by a lot of the stuff that we added toward the end

<patrick_h_lauke> i'm going via skype...and hearing a lot of snap crackle and pop...and some words cutting out occasionally

<jon_avila> not garbled for me. But I do hear static and noise such as when someone is on a wireless (no mobile handset) I wonder if it's coming from Kim Patch

<chriscm> I have completely lost audio...

<patrick_h_lauke> we're all quiet chris

<patrick_h_lauke> just waiting for somebody to call back in...

<jon_avila> Perhaps it's high gain on a computer mic

<chriscm> I'm getting weird static now. Like someone tapping their foot on a gain control.

Kathy: talking about first two
... what are people's thoughts about point or versus touch – additional clarity

David: Patrick's points – touch and pointer are different because of the end pointer obstructing – pointer is smaller than finger. They do seem different. Talking about extensibility there may be times when it's important for us to distinguish. We have the one example right now – sizes. There may be others

Patrick: I think having pointer in general provided we give good definition is good for situations where we don't want to repeat ourselves. We want to include touch and mouse and stylus. But I don't see a problem when we need just one specific type of pointer to specifically call out for touch rather than using general language.And we could probably clarify or add a note to an SC to say...
... why we are actually just mentioning touch here Other places where we don't,, general
... provide a definition of pointer which includes mouse touch and stylus foreshadowing – people might not have seen it but written email right before this call about my initial attempt at defining what pointer is what keyboard is etc. – one of my actions. Definition pointer means touch mouse stylus.Then kind of pointer, actually you the word touch And then maybe add a note that says...
... this is only applicable to a touch pointer because finger is bigger etc. etc.

<patrick_h_lauke> my email about pointer https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobile-a11y-tf/2016Jun/0028.html

David: criticism using language that is cryptic. I've just never heard the word pointer being used as a touch event

Patrick: pointer event specification which is a roundabout reference clearly but it is already used now in another specification
... pointer specification covers mouse, touch and stylus

<patrick_h_lauke> for ref: REC version of pointer events https://www.w3.org/TR/pointerevents/

<jeanne> +1 for using W3C definitions

<davidmacdonald> https://w3c.github.io/pointerevents/#glossary

<davidmacdonald> Fig. 1 A pointer is a hardware agnostic representation of input devices that can target a specific coordinate (or set of coordinates) on a screen.

<jon_avila> A finger and a stylus is also a pointing device -- but I see that a stylus could be used in a way that is not a pointer

Kim: object, and then what it does

<jon_avila> I agree. Mouse can scroll too but also can be used to point

Kim: touch, force touch, plain stylus, tilt and pressure stylus

Jeanne: mouse also has different capabilities

Patrick: pressure sensitive touch is still very new. Definition for pointer events was to unify these because they are in many aspects the same thing, it's worth using that terminology, particularly since it's referenced in a WC3 document.

<patrick_h_lauke> definition for pointer: A hardware agnostic representation of input devices that can target a specific coordinate (or set of coordinates) on a screen, such as a mouse, pen, or touch contact.

Kathy: if you look at the definition of pointer event it doesn't include touch as well. So do we mean changing this to just pointer instead of touch pointer?

Patrick: my thinking is yes except where it needs to be separately called out – where it's specific to touch

Jeanne: pointer and touch, clear it's hierarchical

Kathy: make it clear in the understanding document

<patrick_h_lauke> touch comes under pointer, so if anything "pointer, including touch"

<patrick_h_lauke> if we're talking hierarchical

<jeanne> +1 pointer, including touch

<patrick_h_lauke> or just pointer, and have clear glossary definition

<patrick_h_lauke> and cross-link "pointer" to it

Kathy: when I look at these definitions I agree from an end-user perspective that it's very clear that it covers touch and people might not necessarily think pointer can be touch right from the very beginning but if we are going to go with the W3C definition it's got to be confusing to just call out touch

David: should go with existing definition

Kathy: make it clear in the guideline – referencing pointer instead of touch
... is anyone against using it and doing that

Patrick: if we say pointer and then point to our definition which clearly includes touch as well than that should be clear. And also make it clear in understanding

David: might want to take it one step further with a nonnormative note on first reference in the SC.

Patrick: definition says such as mouse, touch, pen – doesn't try to split the hair between what's a pen and what's a stylus and what's a pencil

<patrick_h_lauke> "input devices that can target a specific coordinate (or set of coordinates) on a screen, such as a mouse, pen, or touch contact."

Patrick: it targets specific code

David: and 2.5 guideline we could even say pointer with brackets including touch

Kathy: if were really going this direction and I agree that we should – we don't necessarily want to include things in here that would be a device that target specific coordinates.the only reason were doing this now is right this moment people are wondering what to do with mobile and touch screens. But if we have a new technology two years down the road and now it's something else you...
... wouldn't want to have including touch and this and that. That list will just grow. I'd rather do it in the understanding..

David: okay – so we take out touch, and mainly put a note underneath saying point includes touch

Patrick: just clarify that pointer covers and include the actual definition
... keen to call back and say we now include touch as well – give them equal chance to be in the limelight

David: moving towards cutting the word touch and all this language and just having pointer

Patrick: I think it would simplify things a lot and avoid a lot of repetition. In situations where we do mean all these types of pointers. And then run the danger of new type of input which is a pointer but isn't called out we don't have to then add the new hollo lens pointer or whatever. Then it's reasonably future proved

David: specific type we would just stick with touch

Kathy: before we get to a resolution does anyone disagree with that

Hearing no objections we have a resolution

<davidmacdonald> Remove last sentence 2.5: Although the definition of "pointer" includes touch, we include touch and pointer for clarity. When we use the term touch, we just mean touch.

RESOLUTION: add pointer definition to glossary and reference this definition where we generally mean pointing device

David: so in situations where it's different we would say for Touch it's this, for other types of pointers it's this

Patrick: I'd probably expand that to fine input such as pointer and mouse and course input such as. Fine and course are established. I'll include that in updating github

<patrick_h_lauke> ACTION: patrick to update github version http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/ to include pointer, add definition of coarse/fine etc as per MQ Lvl 4 etc [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2016/06/23-mobile-a11y-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-55 - Update github version http://w3c.github.io/mobile-a11y-extension/ to include pointer, add definition of coarse/fine etc as per mq lvl 4 etc [on Patrick Lauke - due 2016-06-30].

Kathy: that takes us through updating all touch and pointer comments.

<davidmacdonald> remove from 2.5.2: Anywhere where we say "touch and pointer" we recognized that touch is included in the definition of pointer, but we include touch for clarity and ease of reading.

Kathy: the only thing that Rachel pointed out that we might want to include is pointer events on nonmobile platforms. That may be a moot point now. People generally don't think of pointers being just on a mobile device

Patrick: we could be ultra-specific and mention in the definition that touch applies to any kind of touch screen. But then again probably a wider question – if this isn't specifically mobile extension people wouldn't jump to the conclusion that touche is purely for mobile devices.

Kathy: incorporated into 2.1 – not mobile extension.

Patrick: in that case I don't think developers would assume, particularly because touch screens on non-mobile devices are becoming more common
... we just need to make sure we're using generic language

Kathy: any other comments for one and two in survey.
... I'm also going to update the wiki on our resolution
... WCAG comments survey #3
... Two different Github documents. One which is the mobile extension. Another which is just the touch and pointer.. We should be making changes to just the touch and pointer right now so we can get that one all wrapped up. Only the items that are finished and completed will go into 2.1

Jeanne: to clarify both documents should be the same except for the labeling. If Patrick updates the full document it would be easy to publish a separate one for touch if we needed again. Working on the original would be better

<patrick_h_lauke> http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/

<davidmacdonald> adjiust 2.5 intent: Platforms today can be operated through a number of different devices including touch, stylus, pen, <add> and mouse</add> in addition to <remove>mouse and </remove>keyboard.

Patrick: swipes not used with AT, but that's okay because of 2.1.1

Kathy: we were requiring it to actually work with touch even if it worked with keyboard, touch was required. So 2.1.1 was not in a position to satisfy this

Patrick: per my email about pointer interfaces and keyboard interfaces I think one of the problems which then caused this problem is – the use of keyboard – the way it's defined brings it back to keystroke
... if it's a possibility for 2.1 even those SCs could be modified

Kathy: we can't for 2.1. We can for 3.0. We should make a note based on these comments that we should modify that for 3.0. Right now we can't for 2.1

Patrick: well, I'll withdraw my sensible comments and will have to monkey patch it further

Kathy: past discussions – if we could modify this keyboard stuff some of this other stuff would not be needed

Patrick: the least destructive changes to modified the definition of keyboard so that it does not just send sequential keyboard information – extend this glossary definition
... glossary is normative, but expanding that normative definition – may be scope to do that?

<jon_avila> That would open things up too much to allow for speech or other things to meet 2.1.1

Jeanne: Andrewdid say we can work on definitions

<jon_avila> agaree with David that is important for 2.1.1

David: really want to bring Greg into conversation he was adamant about sending keystroke information. Back in the day we were using a lot of serial keystroke information
... we might want to talk to an engineer – between sequential navigation and send keystrokes

Kathy: different input, also speech – pick up this conversation again to see what we can actually do with definitions, good information as to what we can and can't do there.
... feel free to further discuss over email.

- DRAFT -

Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference

23 Jun 2016

Attendees

Contents

Survey

feedback from WCAG working group

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

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