W3C

Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference

20 Jun 2016

Agenda

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
Tzviya Siegman, Ivan Herman, Avneesh Singh, Dave Cramer (dauwhe), Luc Audrin, Nick Barreto, George Kerschner, Chris Maden, Charles LaPierre, Tim Cole, Vlad Levantovksi, Heather Flanagan, Alan Stearns (astearns), Leonard Rosenthol, Peter Krautzberger (pkra), Benjamin Young, Nick Ruffilo, Bill Kasdorf, David Stroup, Deborah Kaplan (dkaplan3)
Regrets
Ayla, Brady, markus
Chair
Tzviya
Scribe
nickbarreto

Contents


<tzviya> https://www.w3.org/2016/06/13-dpub-minutes.html

Tzviya: "Any comments on minutes last week?"

Tzviya: "No comments, minutes approved"

Approaches to bridging with the CSS WG


Tzviya: "This week we wanted to talk about suggestions group may have to bridge our work and the work of CSS working group"

Tzviya: "Does anyone have any ideas to start with, and after that we will discuss ones we already had noted down"

Dave Cramer: "Our goals are something we should talk about, which are different from CSS working Group's goals"

Leonard: "What do people think is not working in this group? What is missing?"

Tzviya: "Let's talk about not just what we need, but some proposed implementations. They don't want to just hear 'we need page layout'. The publishing world should show some implementation guidelines

Alan: "Publishers won't make browsers fulfill the best setup for your needs, and then move into it. They need to decide to move into the fixer-upper, and then get what they need implemented"

Leonard "One frustration is that sometimes we will ship code, but then it will be removed afterwards"

Alan "Well, one browser did implement pagination views, but then didn't get them used at all"

Alan: "Use of a polyfill works, but browsers only implement polyfills if significant number of developers are actualizing using that polyfill"

Peter: "I was wondering, from a personal perspective, what bugs are there that cause a problem. Is there an easier way for implementation elsewhere?"

Peter "The call for a moratorium was one thing a few months ago. What features are a little bit problematic, or could have more implementation. I've been thinking of superscript and subscript, which is very simple, but what is actually still needed? How deep does the rabbit hole go on such a simple item?"

George: "If we wait for browser implementations, that is not controlling our own destiny. Why not look at Readium, for example, to develop CSS sheets that we like, and have it open source as an example and offer it to any browser and it shows and implementation. It could be something we let the browsers have and insert into W3C specs when they feel like they can handle it"

<laudrain> +1

Tzviya: "Ivan and I had considered this and we can come back to it, thank you George"

<astearns> +1 to Readium, but also other projects. Shouldn't put all of your eggs in one basket

Dave Cramer "First of all, I would say Adobe's experience here are interesting. Browsers stats on usage, as far as I know, it wouldn't go into rendering engines that are inside other programs like iBooks or Google Play Books."

Dave Cramer "That is not a problem I know how to solve, but it is there."

Tzviya: "We were considering having a Reading System meeting. A regular DPUB meeting or a specialized meeting where we invite Reading Systems to come in and demonstrate working code and show off how they do various things. Readium, Nick Ruffilo at AER.IO do some of this. Ask if they would be willing to share some of their code.

<Zakim> astearns, you wanted to comment on iBooks

Tzviya: "Readium for one is open to open sourcing their setups. They may not be polyfills now, but Reading Systems do paginate nowadays and that is usage, it may be starting point."

Alan: "Dave said browser statistics don't take into account reading systems in their stats, but stats are not the only thing they do take into account when implementing polyfills. Approaching browser engineers with reading system such as iBooks and Google Play books is a good idea and can work, depending on who you are talking to."

Leonard: "Alan covered some of this, but I think it is a great idea. Get Readium, iBooks and Google Play and maybe if we reach out hard enough, even Amazon Kindle, to get their input on this"

<astearns> including Edge engineers who are acutely aware of web-based Win reading systems

Leonard: "Seriously though, getting them in on a meeting is a good idea and it should be a special one, maybe a face to face."

Luc: "Readium isn't as well funded as say iBooks or Google Play books, can they really contribute to this well?"

Tzviya: "They wouldn't necessarily do anything new, just contribute already existing code"

Ivan: "These systems are doing pagination already, so it may not be just CSS, there may be HTML and a category of features that publishers would like to have, and because it isn't available in CSS, they don't even try to do it. So I'm looking at Dave and Tzviya who do it every day, they restrict themselves because they know that CSS doesn't have this feature, so they don't even go there. Reading systems may not have these things, so they will not be a complete answer for this."

Ivan: "We need to talk to people, technical people to look into those things that are missing, to make a whole new polyfill and if there things catch on and publishers use them, they will prove to browsers that there is a community there that has certain needs. Unfortunately I don't have any specific examples for this and I hope you can offer some."

<astearns> for those things that are necessary, but are currently too hard for a polyfill to implement, I'd encourage you to bring it up as a Houdini use case

Tzviya: "Yes. Chemistry is an example of this"

<ivan> +1 to astearns

Leonard: "Technical Publications are something we need to consider, they have use cases that are beyond what we thing of as books, and we need to keep in mind what they have as requirements that are not a part of what we think of as books, that we need to bear in mind

Bill: "The workarounds in Antenna House and Prince that are already existing would be useful to keep in mind, and know which ones are the most used, and this would also be a good pointer"

<lrosenth> ivan & astearns - Houdini will certainly be helpful but I wonder if it is a “stop gap” or a “solution"

<astearns> lrosenth: both :)

Tzviya: "Yes. My question is wider. We can't just request reading systems to come to meeting. We need some specific questions to pose to them. "What are some hacks that you use?" for instance. Which isn't good enough either. Pagination of course, but we maybe keep it more informal and have a wiki"

Luc: "A wiki for Tech docs comparison of what is in CSS and what is accessible, this would be help to keep in mind what would be possible in a PWP"

Tzviya: "So are you volunteering to create this wiki?"

Luc: "okay, if you insist"

Ivan: "What is the attitude of the CSS working ground viz a viz accessible? Is it like the HTML people vs XML, do they never look at it at all? What is the situation there?"

Dave "I don't think people think about it at all. Some people would be horrified by some of the use cases, I think"

Alan "There is a certain bias in CSS WG, and in some WG, about rejecting a full solutions over investigating a use case. XSL-FO is a full solution we won't try to mimic. But we want to see what use cases they solve and which pieces we want to take"

<lrosenth> +1 to astearns

Michael: "Certainly Antenna House has a foot in each camp in CSS WG and XSL-FO. With FO we can solve structure documents today. In the wiki I provided some links to technical documents you can download today, that auto manufacturers use."

Michael: "What we are seeing today is an increase in CSS and the number of orders that we realise in CSS and I proved links to a comparison that we make between FO functionality and CSS functionality. An offer I made is if anyone wants a copy of our formatter to actually try it towards CSS I would be happy to provide that for evaluation, not for production of course, but to compare features"

Dave Cramer: "Prince I am in touch with while they are not in WGs"

Luc "So we can be put in touch with them?"

Tzviya: "Yes. So we can put together this wiki for them. Thank you Luc for volunteering"

Use Cases Document Structure and Editing

<tzviya> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pwp-ucr/

Tzviya: "Next point is use cases doc, because we want to get this into good shape now"

<HeatherF> Organization! Yay!

Tzviya: "At this point we want to focus on structure and editorial changes so this document can be more organized, so someone who is totally new to this, can understand oh, the issues with a PWP are these. And then they can get to the next set of issues further on. It needs to read as if it was not written by committee, even though it was. If anyone wants to make suggestions for organization that would be great."

Heather: "So Ivan sent me some suggestions on how to at least link things like requirements into their associated use cases, which is something I want done. One thing that I think would really help this document is a well written introduction.

Heather: "If anyone can help with that, it would be fantastic"

Tzviya: "Do we have any good writers to write an introduction?"

No one volunteers

Ivan "We have a lot of publishers, not authors"

Tzviya: "Any other requirements?"

Heather "The introduction is the main one. And getting the use cases linked in."

<TimCole> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pwp-arch/Archival-UCR.html#LOCKSS

Ivan "Two very different things. The archival group did a use case, and I tried to find a URL for it, as they looked for uses cases, for a strict requirement for each uses case and the collate everything at the end. This is something I think is good to have and I hacked some javascript to do that, because I think we have a lot of use cases and having as structure is important for navigation"

<ivan> 2.7 Manifests/Metadata

<ivan> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pwp-ucr/#manifests-metadata

Ivan: "Second thing is to repeat my call for volunteers as after the last call we had a long list of features which are important in a manifest, but each of those are just features but we need use cases. In that email I picked two, I made use cases for them. One is easy, the other we need to have some discussion with Vlad but I think we should pick though them and make use cases and featuers, as well as go through the whole document and find what may be a use case or just a one sentence feature. The one I picked out is this one section that I will share the URL as they are absolutely essential, the very core of the use case document.

Ivan: "If everyone could take one or two like I did, that would move things along very well"

Ivan: "Heather, if you need help with editorial or other structures, let me know."

Leonard: "one of the things that may be for the next Virtual face to face, there are things here that are mutually exclusive. We need to choose. If we pick some of them, it precludes doing others. We need to make those choices, which ones are our top targets and which ones are not as those contradictions will be evident to those outside this organization, so before we share things more widely it needs to be decided"

Heather: "Agree with Leonard and it is important to make those choices. I also note that some advice is contradictory, so what do we want to see for cleanup more clearly?"

Ivan: "We can probably push aside specs etc. Why we are developing it, what this is for, this is ok, but it is interest things, not really for readers. The stakeholders is important. What I don't know is, do we have any kind of set of possible stakeholders because that might become unmanagable if we are not careful"

<HeatherF> OK. I've seen that; I'll see about applying that to this one.

<TimCole> https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/UseCase_Template

Tzviya: "We want an in-between probably. Use cases at the moment are just one sentence, and they probably need a little more fleshing out, contextualizing them, for a reader from the outside to get to it so they understand what the use cases are about. So the use cases would be short, a few sentences and then examples of that use case"

<tzviya> Web Anno Use Cases: https://www.w3.org/annotation/wiki/Use_Cases

Tim: "There is a lot in the document there now, but piece that I pasted the URL of right now, that is too short. We need to think what is a correct or better list of stakeholders."

Tzviya: "That list is from when this group was very very young. I don't think this is that accurate. Whenever writing stakeholders I tend to think 'everyone', because who am I to say who needs this?"
... "If we are going to use that template, we need to edit it carefully, because it isn't quite what we are after"

lrosenth: "There are a lot of stakeholders, are we talking about reading system developers, browsers, etc, or are we saying other WGs are stakeholders too?

Tzviya: "This template had categories of publishers, which at this point is mostly moot

Ivan: "When we are talking about stakeholders in this document, user communities is what we mean, not other WGs"

Ivan: "Other WGs are a very different thing. If we want at some point to target other groups, we could later, but now I don't think so. The other stakeholder difference is perhaps between end user and browser implementors, which is not very granular, but anything more than that can become not useful|

<HeatherF> yes

<tzviya> https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/May_2016_2nd_Virtual_F2F

<HeatherF> We need to do introductions, I need to highlight where the contradictions are for the F2F, and it would be helpful if I structured this to look a bit more like the annotations use case doc

<ivan> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pwp-ucr/#manifests-metadata

Tzviya: "remember to attend that virtual face to face on July 7th. As people head for their holidays, remember to keep this available if possible. If you have editorial experience, please pitch in, but I like Ivan's idea that we can each take two things are write a use case. That is something I can do, can everyone else?
... "Section Seven, the manifest metadata section, has 15 or 20 one sentence use cases. Can we each commit to take on of those and flesh it out?"
... "Then next week can be in good shape"

Ivan: "Ive already done my two!"

Tzviya: "Ivan is ahead of the game then. What if we say two weeks?"

<lrosenth> sorry - next few weeks are overloaded for me :(. July is better...

Nick Barreto: "I'll do one, or two as it is"

Heather: "Since I want to work on the document more consistently, rather than waiting for godot errr, use cases, then I'll keep things update on github so everyone can keep track of where we are

Ivan: "When there is more there, I am happy to pick it up and put more structure in as well"

<tzviya> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pwp-ucr/#manifests-metadata

Tzviya: "In case you get inspired during the week, here is the link, you don't have to tell us you are doing it, just take two from this section"

<tzviya> https://www.w3.org/2016/09/TPAC/

Ivan: "One more thing that we need because we don't have enough work yet, is that when we have use cases, we need to distill those 15 or 20 to requirements. So if we have ideas on that this would be good, and it may be good to concentrate on that in the Virtual Face to Face.

TPAC

<lrosenth> all registered and looking forward to it

<tzviya> https://www.w3.org/2016/09/TPAC/

Tzviya: "Last agenda item is that TPAC is coming, it is in Lisbon, one of the most beautiful cities according to Ivan. Schedule yourself in! Our meetings are on monday and tuesday, which I think is the same as CSS, so we may have some joint meetings. TPAC is a party, we hope to see you there! Register yourself as soon as possible, I haven't done so yet but will do."

<HeatherF> +1

<tzviya> +1

<clapierre> +1

<astearns> +1

Ivan: "Because of the joint meetings, it may be more interesting and exiting than usual, everyone should try and come"

<ivan> +1

<Bill_Kasdorf> I hope to be there but it isn't confirmed yet

<Vlad> +1

<laudrain> perhaps

<lrosenth> +1

Leonard: "What is the procedure for, or when do we think we will start putting in the agenda for our TPAC meetings?"

Tzviya: "Tighter planning probably to begin in august, but we will get back to you on that"

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

[End of minutes]

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