Introductions

Kazuhito introduced himself as a new member. Claudia introduced herself as a representative of the film company collaborating on the creation of the videos for the Showcase.

Showcase with video

Brent: we encourage discussion, please remember areapproaching deadline.

Shadi: Been working hard to sort through all the comments, very helpful, useful. Will walk through scripts 1-5 and hope for final approval this week and will continue to work throough comments and update the remaining once next week.
... looking at first comment about hearing aid, we have the intent of showcasing the actual experience of people. In this case, the concern was that it may be unclear to come people that a person with a hearing aid would need captions as well.
... reminder that we will link to the reference as well. Have edited the script to be more clear. Consider if 1, is this confusing or 2, is it too much of a stereotype?

Andrew: notes his mother-in-law uses captions (and has a hearing aid)

Susan: I think with the short amount of time the ASL may be a better alternative.

Shadi: The sign language is difficult due to the level of complexity and the many different types of sign - ASL, UK, international. as well as the complex issue within the very short script.
... reverted to hearing aid because it seemed to be a very quick way to indicate hearing disability.
... We did look at that and from a messaging perspective, we chose that. Does that meet your objections Susan?

James: Not necessary to show a hearing aid, not because of stereotypes but just not needed. People with many types of disability may use captions.

<shawn> showing hearing aid reinforces hard-of-hearing and I agree to show it

Shadi: If we do not show the hearing aid, we do not visually reference disability.

Shawn: Showing the hearing aid reinforces the disability, I think we should show it.

Andrew: Many disabilities are not obvious but still, if we can highlight the issue, it is useful to do. My mother-in-law turns on captions on TV even though she has a hearing aid.

Kevin: I initially though about the stereotype that captions are only for those with hearing loss, however the need to demonstrate that it is a person with disability overrules that. So I am ok with that.
... don't see an easy way around it.

Shadi: And we do talk about broader benefits.

James: I agree with Kevin, furthering stereotypes can be dangerous. Developers push back when they think this is for one small group. Instead of just being a person watching TV with captions, we have sterotyped that it is for deaf.

<Susan> +1 Kevin

Sharron: +1

<Susan> Amen James! Deaf is an obstacle with devs and designers.

Claudia: We do not highlight the hearing aid, or even show the hearing aid until about half way into the video.

Shawn: Generally the videos do a good job of showing the additional benefits. I think what the videos need to do better is to show that for some, the accessibility feature is essential.
... I think it is important to keep that point.

<Andrew> +1

Shadi: But we do want to try to steer clear of stereotypes and show that there are additional benefits. In this case, if we do not show the hearing aid, we do not show any disability at all.

Andrew: Just to emphasize that many of the modern ones are so small you will not see it unless you put the camera on the person's ear.

Adina: We could also have a coclear implant which is more visible.

<shawn> -1 to cochlear implant

Adina: could see it clearly without having to zero in on the ear.

George: The problem with that in the deaf community is that they are controversial. Some in deaf community think they should not be used.

<shawn> +1 to resolution to leave hearing aid as is

Shadi: we have heard good arguements from both sides, want to remind people of what Claudia said about the timing. At this point is there any strong objection to keeping the hearing aid in the script to emphasize the importance for deaf persons?

<George> No objection

Shadi: I do understand the concerns and please continue to think about how we best avoid stereotypes?

RESOLUTION: Hearing aid will used in the video caption script.

<shawn> (and note to production company to get a visible yet modern hearing aid -- not an old big ugly one :-)

Showcase Script 2 Contrast

Shadi: Worked hard on the wording and the way it will be visualized. The idea is to show someone walking the streets happily able to make thier way because the signs are clear. Then things change, what would it be like if contrast was bad, signs are unclear, what would that be like?
... we worked on the visualization and hope that it meets people's concerns.

Kevin: I am happy to go with consensus if others think this is fine. I still think however that the transition and the narration do not work well to make clear what is happening.
... The story itself is just confusing, does not relate directly to disability. Need to focus on what if you could not see...something needs a stronger message.

Shadi: We do not want to start right away and lead with disability, we do however talk a fair bit about disability.
... the suggestion is to make the narration stronger to emphasize the disability after we have built empathy. Should that be brought in earlier?

Kevin: Yes since you are coonstructing the visual cue as a "what if" the reality itself needs more clarity.

<James_> +1

Adina: Yes, I agree with that. I don't think it will get in the way of building empathy. Because it is harder to grasp the concept, it needs a turn of a phrase or somehow to make it clearer in the beginning that we are talking of a visual condition that people have.

<Sharron>+1 to the idea of a menu...I actually experienced that earlier this week

Shawn: "color" contrast is the wrong term but you could say "colors with poor contrast"

Shadi: Kevin, is this going in the right direction?

Kevin: No not really

Andrew: I have a collegue at work who cannot drive in the daytime becasue he can't read the signs, perhaps fade everything to low contrst grey.

<shawn> [ i think no color vision is rare ]

Andrew: there are people who see the world in shades of grey. Instead of suddenly changing it to low contrast, what about fading to low contrast shades of grey?
... the whole scene, not just the road signs.

Shawn: That is a very rare condition, better to stick with something more common.

Shadi: Is this the road signs only that will change in the current script?

Claudia: The only thing that changes is that the arrow has low contrast and becomes hard to see

Shawn: I assume we do not have the time to address it, but the signs are not a strong visual metaphor. A stronger messaging vehicle would be something more common like a menu in poor lighting.

Sharron: +1

<Susan> +1

<James_> +1

<Brent> +1 to menu idea

<Andrew_> +1 to menu suggestion :)

<George> +1

Claudia: We could look at changing it, we thought the road sign would grab attention and encourage you to watch more of the video.

Shadi: We are looking for high impact, and for something that is realistic.

Kevin: Basically for most people road signs are good because the are designed to be just that, high contrast and easy to read. What about a business sign and the difference in finding it during the the day vs finding at night? More realistic.

Claudia: We are saying that since for normal use road signs are usually designed to be high contrast and usable, why should that not be true of the web and apps?

Shawn: Claudia's point is a good one, but it is not made well in the video. That point does not come through in this scenario. It seems unrealistic because it is not generally the case that most people have contrast issues with road signs.

<kevin> +1 for reality

James: Again, my problems are with "what if road signs were bad?" and reaction would be "oh yeh that would suck, but they are not." So we are trying to use things to get your attention but then we lose the point of what we are trying to help people understand. People may not take away the message we are trying to deliver.

Shadi: So we have a menu which maybe people have encountered but that is not terribly impactful. Then we have the road signs that have more impact but is not making the point.

Shawn: Isn't it great that road signs have such great contrast, but what about those things that do *not* have good contrast...and the impact that can have.

RESOLUTION: Improvements are needed for clarity of the central point of the contrast script - EOWG will continue to consider and post ideas to the wiki and/or GitHub.

James: Suggest that if you want to keep the example, "what if people who made road signs used colors with poor contrast..."
... that would also relate well to designers.

Shadi: My suggestion is to go back for another round. Please drop in comments as they occur to you. High impact and more realistic. Thanks.

<shawn> +1 for trying another example instead of trying to save the street signs :/ (although OK if can't)

Showcase Script 4 Text to Speech

Shadi: Want to emphasize how critically important that is for people, especially those who are blind. Panning out reveals a cane and dark glasses. Is that a sterotype that we are imposing on text-to-speech?

<Andrew> lots of cognitive / reading disabilities also use text 2 speech

Shawn: Don't understand the issue - we want to say T2S is critical for people who are blind and the cane is universal sign of blindness so what is the issue?

Shadi: it was raised as an issue in the comments.

Andrew:It is useful for others as well...dyslexia, language learners, more.

<shawn> andrew, true - but don't think you can communicate that visually... hopefully that is in the narration

Susan: I brought up the concern of stereotyping but I understand that in a short amount of time we need to make the point in terms that people will recognize quickly. I don't think this is wrong since others are included laterin narration. Perhaps dog and glasses?

Brent: Maybe the glasses are not needed? Seems like that is not as common these days? If the cane is clearly displayed that may be enough.

<shawn> no issue with cane - agree with not dark glasses - would love a service dog with harness !!!- recognizeable - and almost as good as a cat (speaking of the cat...)

<James_> +1

<shawn> [ me notes that among the blind community there are strong feelings about canes vs. dogs - but I don't think that will be an issue for this]

<Susan> Prefer service dog but not strong feeling either way

RESOLUTION: There is no issue with using a cane as symbol of blindness but options can be considered, including a preference for a service dog.

Script 5 Layout and Design

Shadi: People can take a minute to look at first three scenes, wanted to run the changes past the group. We need visuals going on as well. Do people have an issue with the fact that the kitchen is part of the cafe?

Kevin: I can see what is being suggested, but why on earth would they make a mess of the cafe kitchen. There seems to be no reason, I switch off, you've lost me, there is no longer that bond of empathy.

Brent: When you start with the small kitchen, many people live in places where they have issues with how the kitchen is designed, so that may be a quick relation. As it pans out to the cafe, it becomes a wider issue. The kitchen is a poorly deisnged page and the cafe is the poor design of the entire site.
... people's experience of poor design is often rooted in a home kitchen.

<shawn> [ mother-in-law's kitchen ;-]

Shadi: Brent, that is a good point, maybe a public shared kitchen where things are labled.

Claudia: The kitchen is *not* in the cafe - it is a sparate location.

Susan:I do not like the idea of two different locations. It is too confusing.

Kevin: I think one location would work for me and would make more sense. If it is a badly organized home kitchen and if the transition is made more clear, it will make more sense.

<Andrew> people transposed from kitchen to cafe makes sense to me too

Shadi: I missed that so let's look at the script to make it more clear and update the wording. With that understanding, Kevin removes his objection, any other comment?

Susan: I seem to be against the group. I don't like the idea of changing locations. I am more in favor of the bad condition of the kitchen and how it can be improved.
... the same kitchen re-arranged and fixed. That makes more sense to me.
... I understand the concept and the idea of a shared kitchen is good.

Sharron: +1

<Susan> yes. Sharron stated my point well

Shadi: I had some confusion as well and seem to have added that to the discussion. Shall we agree that this is cleared up and we will try to make more clear going forward?

<Susan> yes go forward

Shawn: Heard Susan say this would work well in a shared kitchen space, is it easy enough to communicate it is a shared kitchen in an office or dorm or such?

Claudia: Possible but it will take more time since we have not identified a location for that.

Shadi: Maybe the first shooting location?

Claudia: Could it not be shared within a flat? Roommates?
... what would need to be communicated to make it clear it is a shared kitchen?

Brent: The way the script is written, it does not do justice to what is happening visually. With more of a visualization people may have better understanding of how the point is made.

Claudia: Describes the frustrating search for coffee, mugs, etc all over the kitchen in far-flung locations. Time lapse of the same kitchen and things are well arranged, they make coffee and sit...etc. Voice over says "same on the web..." Then the scene transitions to a cafe where people are using laptops.

Brent: When you zoom out and they are in the cafe, what is the point?

Claudia: Learning disability while the voiceover discusses clarity.

Brent: So the cafe scene is entirely different than the kitchen?

Claudia: Yes they are different places?

Brent: Do we still need a shared kitchen?

Claudia: There is no kitchen in the final scene, it is a cafe with people using laptops while we discuss layout.

<Andrew> then it doesn't need to be a shared kitchen - Claudia has explained well (better than script does at this time)

<Brent> +1 to Andrew

<Sharron> shared kitchen not required, only same location improved

<George> +1 does not to be shared

RESOLUTION: Address the confusion about where action occurs in Layout and Design script by making clear the improvements are to the one home kitchen and then make the cafe transition a very definite location change.

Shadi: OK thanks for the comments, scripts 1 - 5 will be up for your review on Monday we hope and the others soon to follow. Need to finalize asap. Thanks for everything!

Planning and Managing Web Accessibility

<shawn> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/EOWG_Participation_Info#EOWG_document_review_stages

<Brent> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/EOWG_Participation_Info

Brent: Our usual 5-step process and we are in the home stretch, we will have thorough review, public review, address public comments and the approval to publish. We will post a survey that combines a couple of these steps to meet the timeline.

Shawn: Kevin has tweaked a bit

Brent: We will have a survey out on Tuesday and will have a longer duration - about a week, correct?
... wanted to let you know what is in the pipeline for review and publication.
... appreciate the work you have done so far.

Low Vision Task Force document review

Brent: We got good feedback and the TF is taking comments, thanks to those who commented.
... processing your input, thanks

Face to Face at CSUN and for 2016

Brent: CSUN conference will include EOWG face to face on the Monday and Tuesday before the conference, March 21 and 22
... another F2F at AccessU in Austin, dates are May 11 and 12

<Andrew> TPAC=Technical Plenary and Advisory Committee

Brent: another F2F at the TPAC held in Lisbon, Portugal, 19-23
... This is an open invitation, so if you have someone who would like to attend, please let us know and we will consider extending an invitation to them.
... we will be looking at what skill sets we need to add and recruiting with those skills in mind.
... we will be working earlier on the dates for meetings in 2017 so we can get them locked in before the end of 2016 to help people plan and budget.

Sharron: And to clarify just a bit, the f2f isnot totally and freely open without notice, etc. We encourage and invite some observers - if you have ideas of people who would be interested and contributing, please check with the chairs. I was really glad to hear that Susan was able to change her plans and will be able to join us.

<Susan> Excited as well!

Wrap Up

Brent: We will get out updates for the scripts out as soon as we can and probably will have a survey on Monday or later. Will be short survey, we need a quick response. For Planning and Managing, we will be looking at the schedule and posting that as soon as we can.
... any addiitonal comments or questions?
... thanks again for all participation, good turnout, have a good weekend!