Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference

01 Feb 2016


See also: IRC log


Ivan Herman, Michael Miller, Tzviya Siegman, Markus Gyilling, Dave Cramer, Charles LaPierre, Chris Maden, Nick Ruffilo, Brady Duga, Tim Cole, Luc Audrain, Vladimir Levantovsky, Deborah Kaplan, PeterĀ  Krautzberger, Karen Myers, Bill Kasdorf, Chris Lilley, Daniel Weck, Deborah Kaplan
Ayla Stein, Leonard Rosenthol, Alan Stearns, Romain Delfour, Nick Barreto, Ben De Meester


<tzviya> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2016Jan/0170.html

<tzviya> https://www.w3.org/2016/01/25-dpub-minutes.html

Tzviya: "Minutes from last week... Any comments?"
...: "Minutes approved"

<pkra> I read *all* the W3C minutes, every week.
...: "Karen is going to do an update on education and outreach."


karen: "Nick and I have been chatting and talking about opportunities for continued content creation - and nick had a great idea for doing a summary for the work we're doing - and providing them to reporters and let them come to us for more information, so we're not guessing or doing speculative work. We still want people to volunteer for blogs and writing, but we want to provide packaged information to people."

Karen: "Get regular things out. Ralph and I will be going to Digital Book World on March 7 - 8 and setting up meetings there - so if there is anyone there we'd like to say hi. I had a call with Kat Meyer who joined BISG and wants more collaboration and discussion with W3C - so we'll meet with her. I know a number of people are going to BookNet Canada (including myself [also nick]) so we could talk about some of those events. So we can co-ordinate events."

Tzviya: "We have the short minutes... Do you want shorter minutes?"

Karen: "They need to be a little more compact."

Tzviya: "I just put together my travel/speaking schedule - would that be helpful to you?"

Karen: "Yes, would love to have that."

Bill: "Just wanted to mention - I chair content structure committee at BISG. I'm moderating a section at Digital Book World - we have a meeting at the afternoon of the 7th. Kat and Mark will be there and that's the group most interested in this stuff. You or Ralph are welcome."

Karen: "The next outreach event is at the WWW conference - generally. We're looking to put together a track on digital publishing."

Ivan: "The WWW conference is about 20 years old - or more - probably the biggest academic conference in web technologies. it's strongly academic, but people from Google Labs and MS research and R&D places are there. we try to get industrial tracks, developer tracks, etc. W3C has always had a strong relationship with the conference. We've always had a W3C track - about things that are new or relevant - so there will be a digital publishing session. I'm trying to talk to some people to get that there. I had an outreach of the people behing booknet canada, but there is no set of speakers yet as they need to check availability."

<dauwhe> http://www2016.ca

Ivan: "The week of April 11th - the first two days are workshops and tutorials - the core conference is Wednesday to Friday. The track is part of the conference."

Karen: "We're also looking at May with BEA/IDPF - wanted to get a quick show of hands if they will be out in Chicago in mid may."

<ivan> I plan to be in Chicago

Bill: "I can try to get someone on the program if you'd like - but i'll talk to you offline about that."
...: "It's a track of the whole program..."

Karen: "So that's the 10th through the 12th of may?"

Bill: "10th and 11th..."

<cmaden2> http://idpf.org/news/idpf-digiconbea-2016-fka-idpf-digital-book-chicago-theme-announced-digital
...: "BEA starts afternoon of 11th and goes for the rest of the week, IDPF is before that 1 1/2 days"

Karen: "Not sure anyone will be in London - not sure W3C will be there."

Luc: "I will be at London Book Fair."

Bill: "I'm there and speaking about Accessibility."

Ivan: "There is the [french conference] that happens, then the ePub summit in Bordeaux in April 7-8 which is organized by lab in paris - i will be there."

<pkra> I hope to be there.

<pkra> fingers crossed.

Dave: "There's some chance I'll be there."

Bill: "That is immediately before London Bookfair and the conference in Montreal..."

<mgylling> If IDPF WG holds a F2F it will be on April 6

Tzivya: "I might be country hopping, then going away for passover."

karen: "Any other events that we should be aware of?"

Tzviya: "Some of use are attending Take Part Stockholm - May 16-18th"

Markus: "It's an accessibility conference"

<dkaplan3> s/Stolkholm/Stockholm

<tzviya> http://www.mtm.se/en/takepart2016/

Charles: "Epub 3.1 accessibility summit going on later this month"

<mgylling> https://www.imsglobal.org/event/ims-february-quarterly-meeting-and-edupub-alliance-summit

Ivan: "The iAnnotate conference/workshop will be in Berlin. Will be preceded by the face-to-face annotations working group."

Tim: "I should be but haven't booked travel yet."

Ivan: "The practical questions - nick or Karen, do you plan on putting this calendar in a public place?"

Karen: "Yes - on our wiki and on our page. If people are up for it..."

Ivan: "Great - then I can put a reference to the short minutes."

Tzviya: " I think kat was going to work on something as well."

Tim: "There will be force 11."

<tzviya> https://www.force11.org/

Karen: "Nick and I are going to take offline these things as well as create some slides that people can use who are presenting to provide info about the group."

Tzviya: "Thank you karen. Next up the draft of the accessibility notes from deborah and charles."

Accessibility Note draft

<clapierre> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-accessibility/

Charles: "On the link here, we have the accessibility note that we'll be presenting at the IDPF meeting at the end of the month. We want everyone's feedback. We're doing wordsmithing and a few more action items to do but the bulk of the note is now in place. Really this is a note towards the W3C on what is important from the Digital Publishing's Perspective about what is missing in WCAG. That's the premise about the editors draft note. We're not exactly sure when this is going to be completely publishes but we're looking to everyone here to make sure it makes sense. That it's organized correctly. Some of the topic headings - Navigation, skipabbility, escapability, page numbers, pagination, proper nouns, best practices... Future work which we may pick up as the accessibility team has done. In the future work: layout, influencing on comprehension - such as comic strips, annotations - noting there is a working group, Notes - like footnotes, asides, positional locations, identifying speakers, assessments - linking out to which groups are linking out to this field."

...: "Then we get into the GAP analysis of WCAG - this is currently a work-in-process. We've created a googledoc of techniques that we'll move over to a wiki page."

Deborah: "That's the details - the elevator pitch of this document - is that the meat of the document is that when we went through the existing W3C documents and looked at things that digital publishing said is important - we found a set of 8 items that can be addressed by existing W3C and WAI groups. We can say that 'we would like a particular thing to be included'. We have precise things we need to ask - but we know specifically what to ask for. The future work section is more 'someone is working on it and we want to follow it' or 'this is going to require more work' and we really need to think about it."

...: "If you notice the action item is 'ljsadfla anfelfkjaewf we don't know' then... If you DO know the solution concretely then we do want to know about it. There's more work to be done and more gaps. Some usecases that aren't clarified here. This is something that is a first pass at communication."

Tzviya: "The particular item that DPUB wanted was a list of priorities - especially when it comes to the not currently addressed."

Deborah: "Secion 2 is the main part and we've ordered them in priority."

Tzviya: "That's one part of feedback that is welcomed from all - if you agree with these priorities."

Ivan: "My question is on practicalities. Have you shown this draft already to some of the people in the relevant WAI groups?"

Deborah: "Conversations have been had, but this document has not been shown to them at this time."

Ivan: "Ok, please show them."

Tzviya: "Yes, I'm connecting them"

markus: "Logical reading order - do you have that - as far as I can tell in 8.1. Although it kind of discusses another problem - conveying layout information. There is the core problem with reading order. Since CSS may make things look different than the way they are meant to be read. Are you addressing that issue? Where are you with that? Is WCAG providing enough guidance?"

Deborah: "Our reading of WCAG is very straight forward about what you're supposed to be doing - although how it's actually used isn't always the recommended way."

Markus: "Where is WCAG 2 proper do we get guidance for logical reading order where we may have disharmony between display order and DOM order."

Tzviya: "It's there, but it needs to be understandable - it's very broad."

Deborah: "2.4.3 - ...."

<tzviya> https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/navigation-mechanisms.html

Deborah: "It's listed in the techniques"

<dkaplan3> https://www.w3.org/TR/2014/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20140916/C27

Markus: "Other question I had: When I saw 2.8 dropcap - the question arose whether that is one needles in a larger haystack with CSS issues. For example - one question I would have, does WCAG tell authors what to do with generated CSS content."
...: "That's potentially huge"

<ChrisL> I think it is a gap, yes

Deborah: "That's a huge gap"

Tzviya: "The ARIA list has just noted that this IS a gap - and sadly one solution is to say don't use generated content."

Markus: "Or keep 2.8 and add dropcap as an example - and generated content as an example"

Tzviya: "In paginated content, it is a big problem as there's generated content there as well. I think markus is right that we need to point out that this is one example."

Deborah: "There's quite a bit where CSS generated content is addressed with WCAG."
...: "I want to add to the future work to go through our old use cases"

<ChrisL> There should be *no* issue with drop caps. Unless you drop in an image

<ChrisL> colon first letter

Dave: "These issues are very important to me as I'm on the CSS committees especially around generated content. So stuff with the accessibility tree, the dom, etc I want to see a higher level."

Ivan: "Isn't the whole Houdini work helpful in this area?"

<pkra> or problematic?

Dave: "I don't immediately see how."

Ivan: "Gives you access to scripts you didn't have before."

Dave: "
...: "Houdini may give accessibility tools more access..."

Tzviya: "I've had a dream of all the DOMs coming together... Any other comments?"

Tzivya: " What's the action item and when do you want the comments?"

Peter: "Houdini related stuff can be a problem - as if you can draw random stuff, you can put content in any situation."

Deborah: "Charles - when is the IDPF - when did they want to see it?"

Charles: "The 24th - 25th of February - so would want comments before that to get it in before presenting."

Markus: "In terms of IDPF meeting, if you said you feel you have to have it published by then, but it's not necessary. The opportunity at the IDPF meeting is to get input from a new set of people."
...: "In terms of what happens when we publish this - what do we know about WCAG and UAG and all those specs in terms of - are they in a state where this could be incorporated somehow?"

Deborah: "short answer, no...."

Tzviya: "WCAG just released guidelines as to how to write an extension... So we may be asked to write an extension - so we'll be the first group to write one."

Deborah: "Not all of these items will be addressed by WCAG. To a certain extent we want to reach out to WAI. It's not exactly our call to figure out WHO - but we know what things DPUB needs, so we want to reach out to WAI and have them help us turn those into specific discussions with specific groups. WCAG is great because we can make an extension but the other groups are more in flux."

Charles: "With this new WCAG extensions - can an interest group write an extension, or only a working group?"

<tzviya> https://www.w3.org/blog/2015/10/work-begins-on-extensions-to-wcag-2-0/

Ivan: "It may be - as with ARIA work - the interest group does all the work, but the working group gets all the credit... We may be in the same situation..."
... "The WCAG contact has left the W3C, so there may be a callout for hiring someone."
... "I think at the moment, contacting actively the two staff persons who are active, makes alot of sense. Contacting co-chairs means thats making a choice among various groups and we don't really want to do that. "

Tzviya: "Is that something that will come from you? or Me and Markus?"

Ivan: "Either"

Tzviya: "I'm happy to do that"
... "Please take a look at the document and the priorities and take a look at the list."

Deborah: "Any feedback in the next 2 weeks would be ideal."

<clapierre> public-dpub-accessibility@w3.org

Tzviya: "Two agenda items in 7 minutes
... " Epub 3.1 update pushed to next week..."

CSS table samples

Tzviya: "We have an outstanding action item to pass along table samples to dave. We also had samples from pearson. Dave, do you hve what we need, do you need anything further?"

Dave: "there are two aspects to this - in the short term we have the priority to work on the decimal alignment. I have some samples of that for the CSS working group. I think we're OK there in the short term. The longer term issue is 'ok now we have all these tables, can we make them with open-web technologies' which is a huge question and I don't know where to begin with that one."

<pkra> oh my...

Tzviya: "Not sure these were passed around to the whole list. Do you need more feedback? Do you need more tables?"

Dave: "This is massive - and I'm not sure I even have the time to start thinking about this for the foreseeable future."

Tzviya: "Action item for Florian?"

Dave: "Yeah........................................ I'm also in the position where my day job is not table centric - so as much as I am interested in this stuff, my livelyhood doesn't depend on it, so my motivations aren't there..."
... "I'm probably not the best choice to be the champion of tables"

<pkra> hooray!

Dave: "From the CSS meeting, there is now a CSS table spec again that will be addressing interoperability bugs."
... "Greg witorth and francois remy are editing this - it's a Microsoft project to start. On edge they have literally thousands of interop bugs."
...: "there was an issue about table headers/footers keep if a table is fragmented... So yeah... there seems to be concern about that issue in the larger working group. There are people advocating for that as tables are pretty useful."

<dauwhe> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-tables-3/

Ivan: "I didn't know about the separate document. Would it be possible to contact the editors directly - either you or us - and raise this problem. If they are table-lovers then they know table-lovers who might be interested in raising what we have found. We don't need to solve all the problems, we just need to properly show that these are our problems."

Dave: "I doubt these people will have spare cycles - they're focused on web compatibility - so I think we would still have some work to do in documenting our unsolved problems - and we may even have to go the route of creating a polyfill for the problems we're seeing and advocate for them..."

Ivan: "That's not how i felt things went in Sapporo - which was 'give us the use-cases/problems' That was the message."

Chris: "this is sort of a 'make tables work the same in modern browsers' than 'fix issues that have always been there'"

tzivya: "we've gathered our 'crazy' examples, but they happen all the time. This is our reality - and we can provide examples of issues. Maybe we just need to have a conversation about our reality - we can put it into CSS speak but lets get the use-cases going."
...: "Chris - is the next step to get in touch with Alan for suggestions?"

Chris: "yes"

Tzviya: "Thanks everyone for coming!"

[End of minutes]

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