<trackbot> Date: 01 October 2015

<agarrison> +agarrison

<jeanne> +jeanne

<David> +David_MacDonald

<scribe> scribe:Detlev

Mobile Techniques

<Kathy> https://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-Extension/

Kathy: Mobile-A11y-Extension is a sketch how the extension framework is going to play out
... SOme new mobile techniques, others go under existing techniques
... ..organised by guidelines. What's your thoughts?

Jeanne: Doc is in Respect to support automated publishing

<agarrison> So, is it like http://www.w3.org/TR/mobile-accessibility-mapping/ - just cut up into techniques?

Jeanne: Changes only made via github pull requests - don't add anything to it directly, especially no J, may cause issues

<agarrison> q

David: 2.5.1 structure issue - CSS is not correct yet
... 2.5.1 should not remain in here

Kathy: This is agreed stuff but not yet public

David: Should WCAG be in here and the new stuff added?

Kathy: Should help place new mobile techniques under the relevant success criteria - but it's open to discussion

David: Not clear what the proposal is - copying all of WCAG in here?
... People shouldn't perceive this as the updated full WCAG

Kathy: How shall we otherwise present techniques

David: Maybe it is enough to reference the WCAG guideline /SC numbers to make the difference obvious

<jeanne> +1 to short handles of WCAG and adding it to the Status

Kathy: Status of the doc should clarify the difference to exisitng WCAG - that it is to be considered in addition to WCAG

Alistair: mobile accessibility mapping is structured in a similar way (see URL above)

Kathy: this wasn't structured as extension - some are best practices - we started with touch accessibility and added necessary things
... Not xyet decided what will happen with the note - the extension is where things will go

<David> http://davidmacd.com/blog/WCAG-extension-proposed-integration-into-WCAG.html

Kathy: WCAG WG is currently working out how the extension should work
... THis is an overview t facilitate a suggestion how the different reqs will fit into the extension (LV, cognitive, mobile)
... Intended as outline of normative extension
... Extension is supposed to just add to, not subtract from WCAG 2.0

Alistair: Maybe the text from WCAG should be brought over so people can see what gets extended where
... Will provide more context - may be changed later

David: This has no educational purpose ATM - no changes to normative WCAG 2.0 expected , no crossing out

Jeanne: Stil early days in figuing out what the extension will mean - all thoughts are OK now, Mobile a11y TF is spearheading the process, so it is valuable to identify issues (like having to make changes to normative WCAG 2.0)

Kathy: End user aspect, like people creating responsive sites - would it make sense to have new mobile SC with different twechniques - the actual end user will know what is required for accessible development
... For them it will be easier to have all relevant info in one place rather than resort to different places
... We have to consider end user view and usability of this documentation

David: We need a view (quickref) to synthesize stuff, incl. mobile
... Still early days - it may be more difficult to manage to include all, it's a working doc for us
... Should be easy to aggregate for developers later

Kathy: Withing the Quickref there canbe new guidelines and SC
... UAAG and WCAG chairs need input on how we can bring together the different user needs and requirements

Alistair: Reading in different documents looks like a problem - easier to have one synthesized doc
... Looks different on a mobile browser

Kathy: Not sure how to bring in hybrid apps using web views
... muich of it is platform specific (iOS / ANdroid etc)
... Current focus is straight web sites

Alistair: THe extensio bnmodel may also apply to techniques

<Alan_smith> + Alan

Jeanne: Whne req for updated Quickref were developed the need for a filter for 'mobile' was included

Jeann: we can be specific to the area the techniques apply to

David: We need mor techniques - including for hybrid

Kathy: One topic is text-resizing which could be modified for different mobile paltforms
... will send out info on that
... We should go back to see what is mobile specific, like 1.3.3 Sensory characteristics - but telling people where somethign is on the screen coan be really helpful, such things should be taken into account
... A technique just being one way to meet the criteria
... Lets put techniques out to get feedback on what will prove helpful for the new tocuh interaction paradigm

Alistair: 3D touch brings in new aspects, also time touch on Android

Alan: Things like duration can be very helpful for some users

David: We need to take into account the WCAG philosophy - there is a tension between actual use cases and the standard. There are sometimes new tech solutions which beg the question what should be required

<Kathy> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Touch_Accessibility_%28Guideline_2.5%29

Kathy: This doc is a snapshot of current agreements - we can countinue using Wiki

Discussion of Touch Proposal

<Kathy> http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/TouchProposal_Discussion.html

Kathy: Davids wording solution - from equiring touch access to requiring that all touch access also works with AT turned on

David: Charter tells us we are authorized to develop extensions
... There may be overlap between requirements, say of cognitive and moble, so we may wend up with just one extension

This would address concern about complexity of having several extensions

Input from different TFs could feed into one extension - the process should encourage discussion to combine SC whereever possible

The Quickref will then bring that together for the outside user

David: Diagram has gained traction lots of +1

Alistair: Do Working groups work to common time scales?

David: No real coordination so far

Kathy: A challenge is the coordination between what the different task forces are doing

The WG needs to look at that and define how the results are going to be combined - it's currently being worked out within WG

Kathy: This should not become a bottleneck but is a serious concern
... What are the basicv rules for extensions? It's likely that there will be several extensions, not one

David: should be one extension at the ens of the day
... the idea is to speed up the overall process - extensions will be easier

Kathy: The way the focus on the working group topic and interaction with others work is still not finalised

<David> All functions available by touch (or button presses) are still available by touch (or button presses) after system assistive technology is turned on.

Kathy: Point about 2.5.4 Proposal
... The general gist was that everything that is offered for touch should also work with AT turned on - has anyone worked on the SC text?

<Kathy> 2.5.4 Modified Touch (5th draft): All functions available by touch (or button presses) are still available by touch (or button presses) after system assistive technology is turned on.

<Kathy> Suggested Modification: 2.5.4 Modified Touch (5th draft): All functions available by touch (or button presses) are available by touch (or button presses) with system assistive technology.

David: pointing to the latest draft of 2.5.4 - focus ios that everything has to work for people using AT - there is no pass-through gesture on Android - most is already available after pass-throuigh gesture. Not so on Android

<jon_avila> In my experience on iOS the pass through gesture doesn't allow you to lift your first -- I wonder if that could an issue.

David: Good wording for SC

Alistair: Impact on AT, example on date picker. AT can have big impact on a11y

<jon_avila> What assistive technology? If it works with Assistive Touch but not with VO -- it's available with AT but not with all.

Alistair: There may be unwanted interactions between different gestures for touch

David: In theory the pass-through gesture (on iOS) should enable other gestures

Jon: Pass through gesture may not work in some cases
... Some gestures may work with some AT (assistive touch) but not with VoiceOver
... The wording is a challenge, may not be specific enough yet

David: We cannot enumerate all potential AT

Jon: We don't have a standard interface to work with like on the desktop. lots of inconsistency

David: The intention was that with any AT needed touch would work - focusing on the system level

Kathy: Please think about wording, make suggestions for changes

<jon_avila> My technique m23 is in draft form and ready for a review. It is on github.

Kathy: Lets pick up discussion next week

<Alan_smith> M007 was updated from my github version

Kathy: Kim and Jeanne won't be around for next few meetings

Zakim. list attendees

rssagent, make minutes

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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/Jeanne: One topic is/Kathy: One topic is/
Found Scribe: Detlev
Inferring ScribeNick: Detlev
Default Present: Kathy, agarrison, jeanne, David_MacDonald, Detlev, marcjohlic, jon_avila, Alan
Present: Kathy agarrison jeanne David_MacDonald Detlev marcjohlic jon_avila Alan
Found Date: 01 Oct 2015
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2015/10/01-mobile-a11y-minutes.html
People with action items: 

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