Meeting Record

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Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; I see IA_XHTML2()10:00AM scheduled to start in 50 minutes ←

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 94865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Schnitz ←

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 94865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck ←

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Gregory_Rosmaita, Roland, Steven, ShaneM, +1.303.410.aabb, Schnitz (muted), Rich, ??P20 ←

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see yamx, markbirbeck, Roland, Schnitz, alessio, ShaneM, myakura, Tina, oedipus, RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, Rich, krijnh ←

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Gregory_Rosmaita, Roland, Steven, ShaneM, +1.303.410.aabb, Schnitz (muted), Rich, Yamx ←

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see yamx, markbirbeck, Roland, Schnitz, alessio, ShaneM, myakura, Tina, oedipus, RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, Rich, krijnh ←

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Gregory_Rosmaita, Roland, Steven, ShaneM, Rich, Schnitz (muted), Alessio, Yamx ←

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see yamx, markbirbeck, Roland, Schnitz, alessio, ShaneM, myakura, Tina, oedipus, RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, Rich, krijnh ←

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, oedipus, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you ←

Unknown oedipus: GJR *should* be there -- our meeting conflicts with HTML WG meeting ←

Roland Merrick: The FtF is in a week and a half, unfortunately few of us will be there, so Steven and I will get together to decide what to do ←

Steven Pemberton: CSS Mobile profile is related to our work on Basic, so it was thought we should review ←

Unknown oedipus: joint meeting Wednesday, October 31 at 9:00AM EST, 13:00 GMT to build W3C consenus on supporting ARIA more easily and consistently between HTML, XHTML and SVG ←

Steven Pemberton: saw RS' message - don't understand -- something to do with CSS and colons ←

Richard Schwerdtfeger: IE7 has attribute selectors; to trigger, can't have colon delimited attribute; would have to refresh doc to pick up CSS change ←

Richard Schwerdtfeger: if change value of an ARIA propert (checked from true to false) if use NS attribute, can't set CSS selector to trigger CSS styling; if remove colon and use aria dash, can set CSS Selector that will change with it, but to cause CSS to redraw, need to refresh page via javascript, then picked up ←

Steven Pemberton: heard from ChrisW that IE going to implement CSS 2.1 -- will it be fixed in IE 7.1 ←

Richard Schwerdtfeger: had discussions with Marc Silbey of microsoft and email discussions with ChrisW -- no comitment as to date may be fixed; may not even be IE 7.1 could be IE 8 ←

Steven Pemberton: understand keen getting into firefox3 and next version of opera, so want agreed syntax now, but not convinced that part of the solution is based on a bug in one version of IE -- not sufficient reason for chosing a solution ←

Roland Merrick: things getting mixed up; focus on IE7 is irrelevant because no solution for IE6 -- one way of doing ARIA is binding mechanisms using CSS selectors using attributes, not work on IE6, so not a solution for ARIA; colon issue irrelevant -- need another technique to bind to library -- dojo, for example, walks DOM and finds attribute settings ←

Mark Birbeck: first: naming convention used for attribute based on particular technique in ARIA -- could be lots of ways of implementing ARIA -- one is using CSS selectors, but not only way; doesn't HAVE to be done that way; bigger issue solutions for XML and XHTML -- big hole that is missing -- ghettoizing things; creating walls and wars between groups; should consider a number of namespacing techs; define in more abstract way ←

Mark Birbeck: define role so 3 different ways to do same thing and cover all use cases ←

???: what do we need to find a solution to? no real clear statement of problem -- several ways to address ←

???: one, 2, or three may be acceptable, or may choose 1 out of range of all possible solutions ←

Steven Pemberton: advantage of namespacing -- will work in any XML based ML without designing new solution; why not SMIL use ARIA properties -- XML based -- if set of namespaced would work out of box ←

Richard Schwerdtfeger: current ARIA spec does what you suggest; problem is XHTML serialization issue; want same thing for XHTML5 and HTML5 -- both without namespaces ←

Mark Birbeck: have technology stack -- fairly verbose way of writing things (spell out namespaces, etc.) -- doesn't lend itself to hand-authored content or familiar content; XML namespaces over the top for HTML and XHTML -- not proposing new namespace, but having aria-checkbox instead of putting all into XML namespace ←

Mark Birbeck: any XML language should be able to list attributes and create validatable language -- SteveP's position; HTML -- why matter? no namespaces, so do what's simplest; 2 ends of spectrum ←

Mark Birbeck: firefox supports aria- could work in SVG -- what is point of differentiating the 2? ←

Mark Birbeck: not much different than XML events -- namespaced version and non-namespaced version ←

???: can use ev: (e v colon) anywhere around element; ev-event could be global ←

???: same for ARIA? attribute checkbox -- maybe should have adopted standard prefix convention ←

Mark Birbeck: problem with namespacing is that it imposes technology on people not all software supports ←

Roland Merrick: have to explore all alternatives; expand alternatives via 31 october meeting ←

Shane McCarron: so is the problem "how do we scope attribute names and element names in a world where namespaces dont work" ? ←

... take a step back and before we assume it can't be done, we need to ask some hard questions ←

Unknown oedipus: big plus one to stepping back and trying to adopt a standard prefix convention -- ARIA in DAISY (XML-based) ←

Unknown oedipus: next generation of DAISY will be CDF for all intents and purposes ←

... if we agree on aria- and then fix corrs-cutting issues, that would be good ←

Mark Birbeck: We shouldn't lose aria:checkbox, but also include the alternate syntax ←

... we should seriously consider whether to include both versions of the attributes ←

Steven Pemberton: Wasn't hyphen a problem? I thought some wanted underscore? ←

Unknown oedipus: objection to underscore mostly "aesthetic" and "ergonomic" -- no real basis for objecting to underscore ←

Unknown oedipus: plus one to access module public working draft as soon as practicable ←

Shane McCarron: Next - XML Events 2l we have a shortname, and a FPWD, so on to the next version ←

Unknown oedipus: should finalize today at PF telecon (noon boston time today) ←

Steven Pemberton: And I will push M12N through its transition, either to CR or PR, depending on whether we can have a zero-length CR ←

Roland Merrick: Shane will ensure that there is an XHTML2 EWD, in order to progress to WD ←

Shane McCarron: There is a whole bunch of stuffr in XHTML2 that defines how RDFa works, and that needs to be pulled and refer to the RDFa draft ←

Steven Pemberton: section etc, and some global attributes like media href src ←

Unknown oedipus: first forms/html wg joint task force telecon may be 31 october 2007, as well ←

Mark Birbeck: We might be able to do an XHTML 1.2 that includes the existing modules ←

... we have the modules on our charter, we just make a DTD/schema that combines them ←

Roland Merrick: Let's get our modules out, and then decide what we want to do with them ←

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Gregory_Rosmaita, +013868aaaa, Steven, ShaneM, +1.303.410.aabb, Roland, Schnitz, Alessio, Yamx, Rich, markbirbeck ←

Shane McCarron: But just because it is in the namesapce doesn't mean it is in the language ←

Unknown oedipus: markbirbeck and schnitz - is wednesday 31 october, from 1700 UCT to 1800 UCT or 1800 UCT to 1900 UCT work for joint forms task force call? ←

Unknown oedipus: thanks schnitz -- that's currently the leading 2 candidates (31 october at 1700 UCT or 1800 UCT for 1 hour) ←

Weekly XHTML2 WG Teleconference

Minutes of 24 October 2007

1. Call times

2. Reviews

3. Aria

4. Pubs

5. AOB