Meeting Record

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Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven_; I see IA_XHTML2()10:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes ←

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 94865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Schnitz ←

i will be on mute so that my screen reader doesn't keep interrupting the call ←

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Gregory_Rosmaita (muted), [IBM], Schnitz, +013868aaaa, Steven ←

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see yamx, Schnitz, Rich, ShaneM, oedipus, RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, myakura, Roland, krijnh ←

Unknown FYI: joint forms task force finally inching out of neutral (everyone's posted to the list and we have a plan of action and a draft charter ←

Scribe problem: the name 'R' is ambiguous. It could be any of: RRSAgent IRC Bot Michael Rawling Richard Schwerdtfeger Roland Merrick . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.

Steven Pemberton: worried that a number of people stated last week can't come -- now cancelled 2 successive f2f meetings, so we REALLY need to get together soon ←

Steven Pemberton: number of WGs that want to talk to us: WAI wants to discuss ARIA ←

Steven Pemberton: as many of us should turn up and meet regardless -- can't cancel this one -- too many important opportunities at TPAC ←

Steven Pemberton: role meant to go to LC last week -- need to check with Shane as to status; ok to go to last call, all i need is a draft to mount ←

Toshihiko Yamakami: will be browsing testset -- december 7 to 14 -- already october, guess is don't have ready now, but will have browsing component ready before TPAC; ←

Steven Pemberton: nothing currently, but hope in october (11 days time) will be more tests done then ←

Steven Pemberton: need to write activity statement for upcoming AC meeting; would be good to include report of status of testing and concrete plans ←

Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer: been involved in W3C for quite a while; member of HTML WG in 1999, started forms sub-group that became Forms WG; used to work for SAP, now have own software company (second) -- right now, interested in getting XML apps using only XML applications, including an XML database; always had interest in HTML; editor of modularization of HTML; interacting with customers as well as being a developer ←

Steven Pemberton: Shane, last call of role -- thought new draft supposed to be delivered monday ←

Shane McCarron: f2f meeting (cannes or venice) -- WG decided to declare victory -- text/html is the media type, that's that -- then we thought better of it and switched it back -- should serve as... ←

RESOLVED: as earlier resolved XHTML family languages should be served as application/+xml ←

Shane McCarron: lachlan hunt requested a MUST; we replied should be a SHOULD ←

Steven Pemberton: what shall we do -- shall i reply or you or already resolved and just needs a pointer ←

Richard Schwerdtfeger: talking about role -- thought other WG owned namespace -- can't make change here and not expect problems with other documents with dependencies to namespace ←

Steven Pemberton: ok to use 1999 namespace in XHTML2, but there are others who don't want us to use it ←

Richard Schwerdtfeger: asking ownership questions -- if put ARIA into namespace, effects other work ←

Steven Pemberton: issue bound to come up anyway -- XML serialization of HTML5, which means going to have to own namespace ←

Steven Pemberton: conflict between backwards compatability; 2 UAs use the namespace -- don't want to have yet another namespace ←

Steven Pemberton: work ongoing at WHAT WG -- WHAT WG version will be compatible with w3c version ←

Steven Pemberton: long thread that started at end of september continuing in october ←

Richard Schwerdtfeger: what they want to do is be able to provide migration path from HTML to XHTML for role property; HTML4 doesn't have extensibility provision; worked out a best practices technique for UA devs to implement ARIA in web 2.0 apps; want incorporated into HTML5, but be supportive of XHTML; wanted all ARIA roles to be part of XHTML namespace -- like navigation landmarks for document; other thing was have ARIA properties included in that namespace ←

Richard Schwerdtfeger: whole suite of ARIA properties they want in namespace; defined namespace for properties to integrate ARIA into HTML4/XHTML1.0; proposal is "aria-" and property name to be included in 1999 XML namespace which HTML WG thinks it owns ←

Richard Schwerdtfeger: didn't like idea of role just for accessibility; wanted to call role accessibility; nixed -- other needs for roles; don't like that it is a qname in serializatino ←

Steven Pemberton: in HTML serialization no concept of namespaces which causes big trouble ←

Richard Schwerdtfeger: proposal now is all ARIA values for role would be used without namespace qualifier ←

Shane McCarron: to sum up, they are requesting that some things be addded to collection of role values in XML namespace ←

Richard Schwerdtfeger: ARIA properties provide additional accessiblility info to generic elements that then are mapped to accessiblity API; HTML5 glued "required" property onto form elements; which would take precedence -- HTML property or ARIA property; aria- supposed to prevent collisions ←

Steven Pemberton: colon in namespaces chosen for reason; allowable character for attributes; for HTML processing why not demand that a fixed prefix (aaa: or aria:) as prefix of attribute always; colon a name character, so get namespaces in XHTML version, and non-namespaced in HTML version ←

Richard Schwerdtfeger: trying to avoid namespaces altogether, i think; don't look at as extensible XML based doc, but simply a serialization of what can be done in HTML without extensibility ←

Richard Schwerdtfeger: ARIA role has a number of roles for widgets, structural elements, etc. ←

Shane McCarron: if they want to introduce new attributes, that's fine with us -- hyphen about names, not values; context of attribute values, if requesting that bunch of values to added to XHTML values, valid request as long as don't conflict ←

Steven Pemberton: they want to put into XML namespace so don't have to deal with namespaces in role attribute ←

Steven Pemberton: HTML WG chartered to do serialization which must have namespaces; contrary to what XHTML2 chartered to do ←

Richard Schwerdtfeger: if a colon in HTML world for role value, treated as one string instead of qname; pointed out problem: have qnames -- what about use of SVG to create flow charts? not thinking ahead long-term, minunderstanding of real issues ←

Steven Pemberton: one of the first places where extensibility comes in, is roles; extensibility may never happen if don't use qnames -- everything will end up in HTML namespace ←

Shane McCarron: trying to ensure extensibility mechanism built-into language; role needs to be used ←

Richard Schwerdtfeger: don't have issue asking for role values to become part of namespace; shooting self in foot if go down non-extensible route ←

Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer: there is actual money value in efficiency boost by using XML and namespacing; tag soup devalues and compromises accessibility ←

Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer: if use XML database, doesn't matter what app grammar you're using -- have to say this is HTML and have to treat like this and that is XML so treat like that, it all breaks down; flow chart example of RS interesting - that's where things are going ←

Steven Pemberton: transition call for modularization 1.1 -- shane and roland, can you be on call? ←

Steven Pemberton: will contact shane and roland about date and time for call ←

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Gregory_Rosmaita, Schnitz, Roland, Steven, Rich, yamx, ShaneM ←

XHTML2 WG Weekly Teleconference

Minutes of 03 October 2007

1. Testing XHTML Basic 1.1

2. Media type (again)

3. role cardinality

4. role cardinality