Meeting Record

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Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; I see IA_XHTML2()10:00AM scheduled to start in 27 minutes ←

Tina Holmboe: The wonders of timezones. I hope my regret mail made it - I am in an unscheduled client meeting, alas. ←

Steven Pemberton: did you receive the late breaking regrets: Tina Holmboe, Alexander Graf [ Scribe Assist by Unknown oedipus ] ←

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 94865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Steven ←

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Steven, Gregory_Rosmiata, Roland_, ShaneM, yamx, alessio, markbirbeck ←

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see yamx, Roland_, markbirbeck, alessio, ShaneM, oedipus, myakura, Tina, RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, Lachy ←

Unknown GJR: requests continuation of action item re: ARIA description to joint task force -- request of PF that i vett it before the PF WG [ Scribe Assist by Unknown oedipus ] ←

Steven Pemberton: reminder -- face2face 4 weeks away -- now's the time to book transport and lodging ←

Steven Pemberton: have to work out agenda for f2f in next week or so; many things very obvious, but need to know if individuals want to add issues to agenda so can alot time ←

1. reply to comments on modularization 1.1 by schema WG -- mark, have you had a chance to look at it; have 2 or 3 places of potential agreement/disagreement

Steven Pemberton: given element can only appear in a single substitution group -- not sufficient for us, unless we misunderstand ←

Mark Birbeck: not a problem; looked at it twice -- when doing schemas -- substitution groups seems to me the right way to go, but a lot of work involved -- thought WG agreed may do for future version, but technically they are correct ←

Steven Pemberton: we'd be interested in using it in a future version, with input from them ←

Shane McCarron: I am pretty sure we have elements that need to be in more than one group. ←

Mark Birbeck: correct solution; opens up interesting ideas on how to allow people to add own elements easily or even on the fly -- DanC supporter; element x is of a certain type and then can use anywhere without defining complex types ←

Mark Birbeck: this element is part of substitution group X, rather than of type X -- if type, needs children and attributes; almost like a base class in object terminology ←

Mark Birbeck: right; not making any great claims as to type of element; closer to model we want for CDF; child of a DIV -- don't say anything about the type of elements they are, but they are the types of elements that go into a DIV ←

Steven Pemberton: don't want to redesign modularization using substitution groups ←

Mark Birbeck: tell them we understand concept, is right one, but not now -- concept correct, but feel value in schemas we currently have -- they are useful so why not get them out? ←

Shane McCarron: they must be claiming difficult to do with our schema modularization? ←

Steven Pemberton: intention may be wrong but only wrong in that we require modularization, if don't use modularization for integration into documents, that might be the sticking point ←

Mark Birbeck: this used to be easier than it is now -- when first started second wave of work on this, schemas had any element could be root; changed to HTML and then everything froze after that; may not be any more entry points further down tree; if trying to put DIV inside SSD documentation -- what would they refer to in our schemas? ←

Steven Pemberton: modularization -- if html hosting lang, have to have html; jabber uses DTD version of XHTML not HTML ←

Shane McCarron: they had a version similar like this -- worked on it; published ←

Mark Birbeck: where do we describe how to use this for inspector with no deep knowledge ←

Appendix B of Modularization -- talks about how to do schema; appendix E how to do with DTDs; describes how to create a host language; don't define integration process ←

Steven Pemberton: don't describe how to do it, but do describe what it is, right? ←

Mark Birbeck: should be able to do what should do -- add to appendix as descriptive thing? ←

Shane McCarron: something that doesn't use our structure or framework mark says is impossible in schema ←

??: need more info on scenario -- why should i create complete host language just to do this simple thing; true, but can't validate if you do; another example without HTML root base needed ←

Mark Birbeck: ask them for clarification -- need to understand scenario better ←

??: if want to incorporate into XML Schema don't want modularized, could introduce a schema for schema so objectX can be defined; could they use our blocks without using our entire framework? i would suggest they could -- should allow people to use pipes ←

Mark?: could now, but need examples -- if had DIV can put any HTML you like under DIV, this is the block from our framework that you use ←

Steven Pemberton: 2 action items here: SP writes and says current scheme allows you to do this, but need examples, second part creation of examples ←

Mark Birbeck: if schema for Atom this is how you would add reference to schema (inline=flow or inline=block) ←

Steven Pemberton: check on what we think situation is with regards to leaving CR for document ←

Toshihiko Yamakami: next test -- september 7 to 14 in dusseldorf -- roadmap will be tested -- attempting next steps --- provide test materials to w3c and steve will answer that input mode tests provided by OMA (?) will be tested ←

Steven Pemberton: ok, waiting for results -- test of XHTML1.1 missing xmlns declaration and dtd missing -- will test suitte for 1.0 be updated to 1.1 or still test against 1.0 ←

Toshihiko Yamakami: combine versions -- DTD with xmlns going to be discussed internally, hope reach candidate stage by end of september or october ←

Steven Pemberton: basic 1.1 test suite won't be done until earliest October 2007? ←

Toshihiko Yamakami: states for 1.1 -- candidate recommendation will provide; mobile 1.3 quite stable; next stage double test; ecmascript and test css mobile, ecmaspace mobile -- needs editing; reason why original milestone slipped ←

Steven Pemberton: roland mentioned to me that XFrames sitting dormant -- told him would get new draft out based on comments we have and then discuss at face2face -- give those not familiar with XFrames can study it in preperation for f2f; definitely on agenda with aim of getting to LC as soon as possible ←

Steven Pemberton: think it is right that in legacy module type is that DL element has type attribute -- HTML4 it doesn't -- only UL and OL have type attributes in HTML ←

Steven Pemberton: correct thing to do -- PR with identity 10000 -- that's a milestone as well ←

4. XML Base and Modularization -- concerned about possible to do this in 1.1

Steven Pemberton: would invalidate existing implementations, right -- that's the big problem, a new normative req ←

Steven Pemberton: never intended to discuss for 1.1 -- put it in Modularization 2 and XHTML2 and leave it with that ←

Steven Pemberton: if XML Base being used in doc RDFa should not have XHTML base -- should be what host lang supplies ←

Steven Pemberton: can add to modularization, but not necessarily use it -- model but drivers for language should have already been added ←

Mark Birbeck: given that is still in final draft, people can't expect it be frozen ←

Steven Pemberton: why notcreate model that includes XML Base so that nothing would change in lang using modularizatino, but future langs using 1.1 will be able to use it ←

Steven Pemberton: don't add XML Base, but XHTML base can be included using the base module ←

Mark Birbeck: shouldn't be defining XML Base; xml:lang etc. all defined elsewhere; talking about modifying not creating module ←

Steven Pemberton: XHTML SD gives base id lang space (ns?) -- where did we get xml:lang from? ←

Mark Birbeck: where does xml:space come from? we define it -- this is why group became confused -- in XForms include module; modularization included all that was there at the time; are we trying to solve problem doesn't exist ←

Mark Birbeck: XML Base will be available, not be abstraction level describing but in schema ←

Shane McCarron: never shipped schema so if done, not yet normative; attribute doesn't necessarily appear in content model ←

Mark Birbeck: yes, but how to get out of it, yes you are right need schemas -- import what we need now, but if address things in schema that aren't in prose, what's wrong with XML Base ←

Mark Birbeck: where does that leave XML itself and our claim that XHTML is an XML language ←

Steven Pemberton: where does that leave us -- if not in DTD base modularization shouldn't be in schema, but should be in future versions -- 2 choices: add model that adds support for :lang but not in current work, or 2) put off to next iteration ←

Mark Birbeck: is there a case for getting something out such as we ahve now but supports XML Base ←

Steven Pemberton: could do by adding module that includes base but not prerequisite of every instance ←

Steven Pemberton: XML.xsd -- pull in data types and create own attributes based on state values -- already putting in parts of XSD ←

Shane McCarron: if wait until 1.2 or 2.0 that's ok, but a few years down the road ←

Steven Pemberton: people can create their own XMLbase in own drivers; don't have to include in module ←

Steven Pemberton: not talking about browser langs; jabber isn't a browser lang ←

Steven Pemberton: don't know what use this is to be put to -- bank could use XML pipeline using XML base without anyone ever knowing ←

Shane McCarron: third option -- produce seperate module as did for access (XHTML access module) ←

Steven Pemberton: either make a seperate module for it or put in next version, just so can get modularization done ←

Steven Pemberton: do not put XML base in current modularization; do by creating a seperate model or putting into a future version ←

??: why not just do the work writing the module rather than talking about it ←

Mark Birbeck: fine -- let's get current modularization out the door, but wonder if can be done quickely given our WG burdens ←

Mark Birbeck: in some future version collect modules created along the way; XHTML M12N version 2 might include access module and others to be added to core in future ←

RESOLVED: do NOT include XML Base in current version of modularization but put into future version ←

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Steven, Gregory_Rosmiata, +013868aaaa, +1.763.767.aabb, ShaneM, Roland_, yamx, alessio, markbirbeck, Rich ←

XHTML2 WG Weekly Teleconference

Minutes of 15 August 2007

1. reply to comments on modularization 1.1 by schema WG -- mark, have you had a chance to look at it; have 2 or 3 places of potential agreement/disagreement

2. Testing XHTML Basic 1.1

3. DL@type

4. XML Base and Modularization -- concerned about possible to do this in 1.1