Meeting Record

Weekly XHTML2 WG Teleconference

Minutes of 23 May 2007

Agenda

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007May/0015

Seen

Alessio Cartocci, Mark Birbeck, Richard Schwerdtfeger, Shane McCarron, Steven Pemberton, Toshihiko Yamakami, Unknown AGraf|mb, Unknown Alex-DERI, Unknown yamx

Regrets

Chair

Scribe

IRC Log

Resolutions

None.

Topics

Announcements
Validator
RDFa
XML declaration
XML, XML DOM, and QNames

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13:34:02 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/05/23-xhtml-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/05/23-xhtml-irc ←

13:34:17 <Steven> zakim, this will be xhtml

Steven Pemberton: zakim, this will be xhtml ←

13:34:17 <Zakim> ok, Steven; I see IA_XHTML2()10:00AM scheduled to start in 26 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; I see IA_XHTML2()10:00AM scheduled to start in 26 minutes ←

13:34:25 <Steven> rrsagent, make log public

Steven Pemberton: rrsagent, make log public ←

13:34:39 <Steven> Meeting: Weekly XHTML2 WG Teleconference

13:35:53 <Steven> Regrets: Alessio

13:36:11 <Steven> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007May/0015

13:36:18 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007May/0015

Steven Pemberton: Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007May/0015 ←

13:56:23 <Steven> rrsagent, pointer?

(No events recorded for 20 minutes)

Steven Pemberton: rrsagent, pointer? ←

13:56:23 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2007/05/23-xhtml-irc#T13-56-23

RRSAgent IRC Bot: See http://www.w3.org/2007/05/23-xhtml-irc#T13-56-23 ←

14:00:22 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()10:00AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: IA_XHTML2()10:00AM has now started ←

14:00:30 <Zakim> +??P25

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P25 ←

14:00:43 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617

Steven Pemberton: zakim, dial steven-617 ←

14:00:43 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; the call is being made ←

14:00:44 <Zakim> +Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven ←

14:01:04 <Steven> zakim, ??P25 is Rich

Steven Pemberton: zakim, ??P25 is Rich ←

14:01:04 <Zakim> +Rich; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Rich; got it ←

14:01:24 <Zakim> +??P31

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P31 ←

14:01:36 <Steven> Regrets+ Tina

Steven Pemberton: Regrets+ Tina ←

14:01:36 <yamx> This is Yam.

Scribe problem: the name 'yamx' does not match any of the 17 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Elias Torres John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Mark Birbeck Michael Rawling Richard Schwerdtfeger Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Shane McCarron Steven Pemberton Susan Borgrink Tina Holmboe Toshihiko Yamakami Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown yamx: This is Yam. ←

14:01:44 <Steven> Zakim, ??P31 is yamx

Steven Pemberton: Zakim, ??P31 is yamx ←

14:01:44 <Zakim> +yamx; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +yamx; got it ←

14:01:50 <Steven> Regrets+Susan

Steven Pemberton: Regrets+Susan ←

14:02:53 <Steven> Scribe: Steven

(Scribe set to Steven Pemberton)

14:03:04 <Steven> Steven: Partial regrets from Alex

Steven Pemberton: Partial regrets from Alex ←

14:03:12 <Steven> ... he's only on irc

... he's only on irc ←

14:04:38 <Zakim> +??P21

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P21 ←

14:04:47 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am ?

Mark Birbeck: zakim, i am ? ←

14:04:47 <Zakim> +markbirbeck; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +markbirbeck; got it ←

14:04:56 <Steven> zakim, who is here?

zakim, who is here? ←

14:04:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see Rich, Steven, yamx, markbirbeck

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Rich, Steven, yamx, markbirbeck ←

14:04:57 <Zakim> On IRC I see ShaneM, Rich, yamx, Steven, Tina, Zakim, RRSAgent, markbirbeck, Alex-DERI, krijnh

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see ShaneM, Rich, yamx, Steven, Tina, Zakim, RRSAgent, markbirbeck, Alex-DERI, krijnh ←

14:05:05 <Zakim> +ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM ←

14:05:41 <Steven> Mark: I propose Steven as chair

Mark Birbeck: I propose Steven as chair ←

14:06:05 <Steven> Yam: Second

Toshihiko Yamakami: Second ←

14:06:11 <Steven> Chair: Steven

14:06:52 <Steven> Topic: Announcements

1. Announcements

14:07:53 <Steven> New members: Susan and John from Progeny

New members: Susan and John from Progeny ←

14:08:00 <Steven> (sent regrets for today)

(sent regrets for today) ←

14:08:08 <Steven> FtF in NYC in June

FtF in NYC in June ←

14:08:32 <Steven> Steven: My feeling is that not enough people could come in June

Steven Pemberton: My feeling is that not enough people could come in June ←

14:08:52 <Steven> ... so the nex next FtF will be in September

... so the next nextt FtF will be in September ←

14:08:59 <Steven> ... In Madrid if I remember right

... In Madrid if I remember right ←

14:09:10 <Steven> s/nex/next/

14:09:28 <Steven> ... 10 and 11 September

... 10 and 11 September ←

14:09:37 <Steven> Mark: Yes, Madrid

Mark Birbeck: Yes, Madrid ←

14:10:27 <Steven> Steven: So do we want to have an editor's meeting on the Monday and or Tuesday?

Steven Pemberton: So do we want to have an editor's meeting on the Monday and or Tuesday? ←

14:10:58 <Steven> ... (let's do it offline)

... (let's do it offline) ←

14:11:07 <Steven> Reports back from conferences

Reports back from conferences ←

14:11:19 <Alex-DERI> As I already said via mail, I got the OK from DERI, so I could attend the FTF meeting in june

Scribe problem: the name 'Alex-DERI' does not match any of the 17 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Elias Torres John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Mark Birbeck Michael Rawling Richard Schwerdtfeger Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Shane McCarron Steven Pemberton Susan Borgrink Tina Holmboe Toshihiko Yamakami Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Alex-DERI: As I already said via mail, I got the OK from DERI, so I could attend the FTF meeting in june ←

14:11:23 <Steven> Steven: Mark and I were at the two main ewb conferences the last two weeks

Steven Pemberton: Mark and I were at the two main ewb conferences the last two weeks ←

14:11:57 <Steven> Steven: There was a panel on the future of HTML at XTech

Steven Pemberton: There was a panel on the future of HTML at XTech ←

14:15:58 <Steven> ... quite a lot of panelists

... quite a lot of panelists ←

14:16:09 <Steven> ... only 45 minutes, so not as lot of time

... only 45 minutes, so not as lot of time ←

14:16:22 <Steven> ... BBC interviewed me and Mike Smith (BBC) afterwards

... BBC interviewed me and Mike Smith (BBC) afterwards ←

14:16:50 <Steven> ... Another interesting presentation was Joost

... Another interesting presentation was Joost ←

14:17:07 <Steven> ... who showed a lovely system using compound documents, XHTML , CSS< SVG

... who showed a lovely system using compound documents, XHTML , CSS< SVG ←

14:17:21 <Steven> ... really nice, and using our idea of how it should be

... really nice, and using our idea of how it should be ←

14:18:00 <Steven> Mark: The mobile Ajax session was good too, talking about XForms, XHTML2 and so on

Mark Birbeck: The mobile Ajax session was good too, talking about XForms, XHTML2 and so on ←

14:18:46 <Steven> ... I argued that you can do Ajax declaratively, and the session ended up talking about that as the main point

... I argued that you can do Ajax declaratively, and the session ended up talking about that as the main point ←

14:19:01 <Steven> ... Volantis backed me up on this

... Volantis backed me up on this ←

14:19:14 <Steven> ... they deliver XHTML2 and XForms to mobile devices by transformations

... they deliver XHTML2 and XForms to mobile devices by transformations ←

14:22:30 <Steven> Rich: Do we have any data on how much declarative saves?

Richard Schwerdtfeger: Do we have any data on how much declarative saves? ←

14:22:57 <Steven> Steven: Yes, that is the core of my talks at the moment

Steven Pemberton: Yes, that is the core of my talks at the moment ←

14:23:23 <Steven> ... you can show that costs can be reduced to 3% by doing it declaratively

... you can show that costs can be reduced to 3% by doing it declaratively ←

14:23:39 <Steven> ... and we have a couple of real-life examples to back that up

... and we have a couple of real-life examples to back that up ←

14:25:30 <Steven> Shane: I wonder if Tina can summarise the thread on www-html

Shane McCarron: I wonder if Tina can summarise the thread on www-html ←

14:25:36 <Steven> Steven: She sent regrets

Steven Pemberton: She sent regrets ←

14:26:18 <Steven> Shane: there were two main threads: 1) Why is HTML5 codifying broken behaviour

Shane McCarron: there were two main threads: 1) Why is HTML5 codifying broken behaviour ←

14:26:28 <Steven> ... why not separate implementation guidelines from spec

... why not separate implementation guidelines from spec ←

14:26:44 <Steven> ... 2) changing the semantics between HTML4 and 5

... 2) changing the semantics between HTML4 and 5 ←

14:28:11 <Steven> Steven: It is not clear to me the best way to reach that group of people

Steven Pemberton: It is not clear to me the best way to reach that group of people ←

14:28:22 <Steven> ... whether it is worth talking on those discussions or not

... whether it is worth talking on those discussions or not ←

14:28:31 <Alex-DERI> As a side note, I'm on HTML5 too

Unknown Alex-DERI: As a side note, I'm on HTML5 too ←

14:29:28 <Steven> Mark: We need to clarify what the difference is between what we are doing and what they are doing

Mark Birbeck: We need to clarify what the difference is between what we are doing and what they are doing ←

14:29:40 <Steven> Alex, so is Mark

Alex, so is Mark ←

14:30:27 <Alex-DERI> I know

Unknown Alex-DERI: I know ←

14:32:54 <Steven> Mark: You can use XHTML2/XForms to show how much work you save compared with using libraries

Mark Birbeck: You can use XHTML2/XForms to show how much work you save compared with using libraries ←

14:33:42 <Steven> Topic: Validator

2. Validator

14:34:18 <Steven> Shane: I fixed the xmlns problem, and passed the changes on, and it will be in the next version

Shane McCarron: I fixed the xmlns problem, and passed the changes on, and it will be in the next version ←

14:34:37 <Steven> ... so you can use xmlns:xxx in markup and not get validation errors

... so you can use xmlns:xxx in markup and not get validation errors ←

14:35:29 <Steven> ... but you still need a schema

... but you still need a schema ←

14:37:29 <Steven> Steven: There was another mail from someone from Japan, mentioning a fix

Steven Pemberton: There was another mail from someone from Japan, mentioning a fix ←

14:37:37 <Steven> Shane: That was about C1 characters

Shane McCarron: That was about C1 characters ←

14:37:49 <Steven> ... the validator is now fixed, but we need to update our specs

... the validator is now fixed, but we need to update our specs ←

14:38:09 <Steven> ... because we ship xml declarations

... because we ship xml declarations ←

14:38:18 <Steven> ... and they now need to be fixed

... and they now need to be fixed ←

14:38:35 <Steven> Steven: In TR space?

Steven Pemberton: In TR space? ←

14:38:38 <Steven> Shane: Yes

Shane McCarron: Yes ←

14:38:47 <Steven> ... but they don't show up in the spec

... but they don't show up in the spec ←

14:38:53 <Steven> ... I will approach Ian about it

... I will approach Ian about it ←

14:39:35 <Steven> Steven: When will the xmlns fix be shipped?

Steven Pemberton: When will the xmlns fix be shipped? ←

14:39:40 <Steven> Shane: It is in beta now

Shane McCarron: It is in beta now ←

14:40:03 <Steven> Topic: RDFa

3. RDFa

14:43:13 <Steven> Steven: An excellent demo at XTech of an RDFa extension for Mozilla

Steven Pemberton: An excellent demo at XTech of an RDFa extension for Mozilla ←

14:44:31 <Steven> ... seems to point to maturity of RDFa

... seems to point to maturity of RDFa ←

14:44:38 <Steven> ... we can move forward on this quite fast

... we can move forward on this quite fast ←

14:44:51 <Steven> Mark: Lots of talks mentioned RDFa at WWW2007

Mark Birbeck: Lots of talks mentioned RDFa at WWW2007 ←

14:45:21 <Steven> Topic: XML declaration

4. XML declaration

14:45:41 <Steven> Shane: I have just raised the problem with Ian Jacobs

Shane McCarron: I have just raised the problem with Ian Jacobs ←

14:45:50 <Steven> ... he says we can't fix it in place

... he says we can't fix it in place ←

14:45:59 <Steven> ... we have to reissue the specs

... we have to reissue the specs ←

14:46:14 <Steven> Steven: Why?

Steven Pemberton: Why? ←

14:46:18 <Steven> Shane: Just because

Shane McCarron: Just because ←

14:46:54 <Steven> Steven: So it would be a PER

Steven Pemberton: So it would be a PER ←

14:46:56 <Steven> Shane: Yes

Shane McCarron: Yes ←

14:47:32 <Steven> Steven: Painless enough

Steven Pemberton: Painless enough ←

14:48:08 <Steven> Topic: XML, XML DOM, and QNames

5. XML, XML DOM, and QNames

14:49:50 <Steven> Shane: I had an action item to ask how XML parsing works when QNames get turned into tuples

Shane McCarron: I had an action item to ask how XML parsing works when QNames get turned into tuples ←

14:49:56 <Steven> ... the answer was "they don't"

... the answer was "they don't" ←

14:50:07 <Steven> ... inside attributes

... inside attributes ←

14:50:46 <Steven> ... and what we are trying to do is allow scoped attribute values in some taxonomy

... and what we are trying to do is allow scoped attribute values in some taxonomy ←

14:51:09 <Steven> ... so an application has to do the interpretation itself

... so an application has to do the interpretation itself ←

14:51:59 <Steven> ... So then I said to myself, if the parser isn't helping us, why are we using xmlns to establish the relationship?

... So then I said to myself, if the parser isn't helping us, why are we using xmlns to establish the relationship? ←

14:52:32 <Steven> ... and the conclusion I reached with Mark, is that xmlns is something everyone understands, so we should use it

... and the conclusion I reached with Mark, is that xmlns is something everyone understands, so we should use it ←

14:53:09 <Steven> ... but I wonder if we shouldn't use CURIEs, since they don't cary the baggage with them

... but I wonder if we shouldn't use CURIEs, since they don't cary the baggage with them ←

14:53:17 <Steven> s/cary/cary/

14:53:23 <Steven> s/cary/carry/

14:53:36 <Steven> Mark: DO you mean to change the sysntax of CURIEs?

Mark Birbeck: Do you mean to change the sysntax of CURIEs? ←

14:53:39 <Steven> Shane: No

Shane McCarron: No ←

14:53:45 <Steven> s/DO/Do/

14:54:21 <Steven> Mark: It should always have said CURIEs, but because of the pushback we were getting, we said let's use QNames for now

Mark Birbeck: It should always have said CURIEs, but because of the pushback we were getting, we said let's use QNames for now ←

14:56:42 <Steven> Steven: Are you suggesting we use something other than xmlns for the prefixes?

Steven Pemberton: Are you suggesting we use something other than xmlns for the prefixes? ←

14:57:01 <Steven> Mark: We can unbind the connection

Mark Birbeck: We can unbind the connection ←

14:57:17 <Steven> ... use xmlns, or triples using <link> for instance

... use xmlns, or triples using <link> for instance ←

14:57:49 <Steven> ... Jeremy Carroll was enthusiastic to use it for SPARQL

... Jeremy Carroll was enthusiastic to use it for SPARQL ←

14:58:06 <Steven> ... and we can persuade IPTC to use it too

... and we can persuade IPTC to use it too ←

14:58:16 <Steven> ... and it would allow us to have default namespaces

... and it would allow us to have default prefixes ←

14:58:23 <Steven> s/namespaces/prefixes/

14:58:46 <Steven> ... if profile = X, the dc maps to this, foaf maps to that, etc.

... if profile = X, the dc maps to this, foaf maps to that, etc. ←

14:59:12 <Steven> ... and then making XHTML documents much easier to write, cut/paste and so on

... and then making XHTML documents much easier to write, cut/paste and so on ←

15:00:26 <Steven> Steven: Will the same notation (like namespaces) confuse people

Steven Pemberton: Will the same notation (like namespaces) confuse people ←

15:00:40 <Steven> Mark: Good question; one option is to change the syntax of CURIEs

Mark Birbeck: Good question; one option is to change the syntax of CURIEs ←

15:01:02 <Steven> ... so they look different

... so they look different ←

15:01:43 <Steven> ... we could even let people define the separator

... we could even let people define the separator ←

15:02:09 <Steven> ... but one scenario is that within the flexibility, we use xmlns as an option

... but one scenario is that within the flexibility, we use xmlns as an option ←

15:02:20 <Steven> [ADJOURN]

[ADJOURN] ←

15:02:26 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

15:02:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/23-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/23-xhtml-minutes.html Steven ←

15:02:35 <Zakim> -ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: -ShaneM ←

15:02:37 <Zakim> -Rich

Zakim IRC Bot: -Rich ←

15:02:39 <Zakim> -Steven

Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven ←

15:02:41 <Zakim> -markbirbeck

Zakim IRC Bot: -markbirbeck ←

15:02:43 <Zakim> -yamx

Zakim IRC Bot: -yamx ←

15:02:45 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()10:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: IA_XHTML2()10:00AM has ended ←

15:02:47 <Zakim> Attendees were Steven, Rich, yamx, markbirbeck, ShaneM

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Steven, Rich, yamx, markbirbeck, ShaneM ←

15:02:54 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes

rrsagent, make minutes ←

15:02:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/23-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/23-xhtml-minutes.html Steven ←

15:18:05 <AGraf|mb> so, did i understand that correctly, the ftf in june has been cancelled?

Scribe problem: the name 'AGraf|mb' does not match any of the 17 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alessio Cartocci Alexander Graf Elias Torres John Kugelman Luca Mascaro Mark Birbeck Michael Rawling Richard Schwerdtfeger Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer Shane McCarron Steven Pemberton Susan Borgrink Tina Holmboe Toshihiko Yamakami Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

(No events recorded for 15 minutes)

Unknown AGraf|mb: so, did i understand that correctly, the ftf in june has been cancelled? ←

15:18:33 <ShaneM>  yes.  there may be an editors meeting that week, but the xhtml working group will not meet on the 11th and 12th.

Shane McCarron: yes. there may be an editors meeting that week, but the xhtml working group will not meet on the 11th and 12th. ←

15:18:43 <ShaneM>  the xforms group will still meet the balance of the week

Shane McCarron: the xforms group will still meet the balance of the week ←

15:18:53 <AGraf|mb> ok, thanks

Unknown AGraf|mb: ok, thanks ←

15:19:19 <AGraf|mb> just so i'm not cancelling the flight for nothing...

Unknown AGraf|mb: just so i'm not cancelling the flight for nothing... ←

15:19:26 <ShaneM>  heh.

Shane McCarron: heh. ←

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