IRC log of xhtml on 2007-05-23

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:34:02 [RRSAgent]

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/05/23-xhtml-irc

13:34:10 [Zakim]

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13:34:17 [Steven]

zakim, this will be xhtml

13:34:17 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; I see IA_XHTML2()10:00AM scheduled to start in 26 minutes

13:34:25 [Steven]

rrsagent, make log public

13:34:39 [Steven]

Meeting: Weekly XHTML2 WG Teleconference

13:35:53 [Steven]

Regrets: Alessio

13:36:11 [Steven]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007May/0015

13:36:18 [Steven]

Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007May/0015

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13:56:23 [Steven]

rrsagent, pointer?

13:56:23 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2007/05/23-xhtml-irc#T13-56-23

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14:00:22 [Zakim]

IA_XHTML2()10:00AM has now started

14:00:22 [ShaneM]

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14:00:30 [Zakim]

+??P25

14:00:43 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-617

14:00:43 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

14:00:44 [Zakim]

+Steven

14:01:04 [Steven]

zakim, ??P25 is Rich

14:01:04 [Zakim]

+Rich; got it

14:01:24 [Zakim]

+??P31

14:01:36 [Steven]

Regrets+ Tina

14:01:36 [yamx]

This is Yam.

14:01:44 [Steven]

Zakim, ??P31 is yamx

14:01:44 [Zakim]

+yamx; got it

14:01:50 [Steven]

Regrets+Susan

14:02:53 [Steven]

Scribe: Steven

14:03:04 [Steven]

Steven: Partial regrets from Alex

14:03:12 [Steven]

... he's only on irc

14:04:38 [Zakim]

+??P21

14:04:47 [markbirbeck]

zakim, i am ?

14:04:47 [Zakim]

+markbirbeck; got it

14:04:56 [Steven]

zakim, who is here?

14:04:56 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Rich, Steven, yamx, markbirbeck

14:04:57 [Zakim]

On IRC I see ShaneM, Rich, yamx, Steven, Tina, Zakim, RRSAgent, markbirbeck, Alex-DERI, krijnh

14:05:05 [Zakim]

+ShaneM

14:05:41 [Steven]

Mark: I propose Steven as chair

14:06:05 [Steven]

Yam: Second

14:06:11 [Steven]

Chair: Steven

14:06:52 [Steven]

Topic: Announcements

14:07:53 [Steven]

New members: Susan and John from Progeny

14:08:00 [Steven]

(sent regrets for today)

14:08:08 [Steven]

FtF in NYC in June

14:08:32 [Steven]

Steven: My feeling is that not enough people could come in June

14:08:52 [Steven]

... so the nex next FtF will be in September

14:08:59 [Steven]

... In Madrid if I remember right

14:09:10 [Steven]

s/nex/next/

14:09:28 [Steven]

... 10 and 11 September

14:09:37 [Steven]

Mark: Yes, Madrid

14:10:27 [Steven]

Steven: So do we want to have an editor's meeting on the Monday and or Tuesday?

14:10:58 [Steven]

... (let's do it offline)

14:11:07 [Steven]

Reports back from conferences

14:11:19 [Alex-DERI]

As I already said via mail, I got the OK from DERI, so I could attend the FTF meeting in june

14:11:23 [Steven]

Steven: Mark and I were at the two main ewb conferences the last two weeks

14:11:57 [Steven]

Steven: There was a panel on the future of HTML at XTech

14:15:58 [Steven]

... quite a lot of panelists

14:16:09 [Steven]

... only 45 minutes, so not as lot of time

14:16:22 [Steven]

... BBC interviewed me and Mike Smith (BBC) afterwards

14:16:50 [Steven]

... Another interesting presentation was Joost

14:17:07 [Steven]

... who showed a lovely system using compound documents, XHTML , CSS< SVG

14:17:21 [Steven]

... really nice, and using our idea of how it should be

14:18:00 [Steven]

Mark: The mobile Ajax session was good too, talking about XForms, XHTML2 and so on

14:18:46 [Steven]

... I argued that you can do Ajax declaratively, and the session ended up talking about that as the main point

14:19:01 [Steven]

... Volantis backed me up on this

14:19:14 [Steven]

... they deliver XHTML2 and XForms to mobile devices by transformations

14:22:30 [Steven]

Rich: Do we have any data on how much declarative saves?

14:22:57 [Steven]

Steven: Yes, that is the core of my talks at the moment

14:23:23 [Steven]

... you can show that costs can be reduced to 3% by doing it declaratively

14:23:39 [Steven]

... and we have a couple of real-life examples to back that up

14:25:30 [Steven]

Shane: I wonder if Tina can summarise the thread on www-html

14:25:36 [Steven]

Steven: She sent regrets

14:26:18 [Steven]

Shane: there were two main threads: 1) Why is HTML5 codifying broken behaviour

14:26:28 [Steven]

... why not separate implementation guidelines from spec

14:26:44 [Steven]

... 2) changing the semantics between HTML4 and 5

14:28:11 [Steven]

Steven: It is not clear to me the best way to reach that group of people

14:28:22 [Steven]

... whether it is worth talking on those discussions or not

14:28:31 [Alex-DERI]

As a side note, I'm on HTML5 too

14:29:28 [Steven]

Mark: We need to clarify what the difference is between what we are doing and what they are doing

14:29:40 [Steven]

Alex, so is Mark

14:30:27 [Alex-DERI]

I know

14:32:54 [Steven]

Mark: You can use XHTML2/XForms to show how much work you save compared with using libraries

14:33:42 [Steven]

Topic: Validator

14:34:18 [Steven]

Shane: I fixed the xmlns problem, and passed the changes on, and it will be in the next version

14:34:37 [Steven]

... so you can use xmlns:xxx in markup and not get validation errors

14:35:29 [Steven]

... but you still need a schema

14:37:29 [Steven]

Steven: There was another mail from someone from Japan, mentioning a fix

14:37:37 [Steven]

Shane: That was about C1 characters

14:37:49 [Steven]

... the validator is now fixed, but we need to update our specs

14:38:09 [Steven]

... because we ship xml declarations

14:38:18 [Steven]

... and they now need to be fixed

14:38:35 [Steven]

Steven: In TR space?

14:38:38 [Steven]

Shane: Yes

14:38:47 [Steven]

... but they don't show up in the spec

14:38:53 [Steven]

... I will approach Ian about it

14:39:35 [Steven]

Steven: When will the xmlns fix be shipped?

14:39:40 [Steven]

Shane: It is in beta now

14:40:03 [Steven]

Topic: RDFa

14:43:13 [Steven]

Steven: An excellent demo at XTech of an RDFa extension for Mozilla

14:44:31 [Steven]

... seems to point to maturity of RDFa

14:44:38 [Steven]

... we can move forward on this quite fast

14:44:51 [Steven]

Mark: Lots of talks mentioned RDFa at WWW2007

14:45:21 [Steven]

Topic: XML declaration

14:45:41 [Steven]

Shane: I have just raised the problem with Ian Jacobs

14:45:50 [Steven]

... he says we can't fix it in place

14:45:59 [Steven]

... we have to reissue the specs

14:46:14 [Steven]

Steven: Why?

14:46:18 [Steven]

Shane: Just because

14:46:54 [Steven]

Steven: So it would be a PER

14:46:56 [Steven]

Shane: Yes

14:47:32 [Steven]

Steven: Painless enough

14:48:08 [Steven]

Topic: XML, XML DOM, and QNames

14:49:50 [Steven]

Shane: I had an action item to ask how XML parsing works when QNames get turned into tuples

14:49:56 [Steven]

... the answer was "they don't"

14:50:07 [Steven]

... inside attributes

14:50:46 [Steven]

... and what we are trying to do is allow scoped attribute values in some taxonomy

14:51:09 [Steven]

... so an application has to do the interpretation itself

14:51:59 [Steven]

... So then I said to myself, if the parser isn't helping us, why are we using xmlns to establish the relationship?

14:52:32 [Steven]

... and the conclusion I reached with Mark, is that xmlns is something everyone understands, so we should use it

14:53:09 [Steven]

... but I wonder if we shouldn't use CURIEs, since they don't cary the baggage with them

14:53:17 [Steven]

s/cary/cary/

14:53:23 [Steven]

s/cary/carry/

14:53:36 [Steven]

Mark: DO you mean to change the sysntax of CURIEs?

14:53:39 [Steven]

Shane: No

14:53:45 [Steven]

s/DO/Do/

14:54:21 [Steven]

Mark: It should always have said CURIEs, but because of the pushback we were getting, we said let's use QNames for now

14:56:42 [Steven]

Steven: Are you suggesting we use something other than xmlns for the prefixes?

14:57:01 [Steven]

Mark: We can unbind the connection

14:57:17 [Steven]

... use xmlns, or triples using <link> for instance

14:57:49 [Steven]

... Jeremy Carroll was enthusiastic to use it for SPARQL

14:58:06 [Steven]

... and we can persuade IPTC to use it too

14:58:16 [Steven]

... and it would allow us to have default namespaces

14:58:23 [Steven]

s/namespaces/prefixes/

14:58:46 [Steven]

... if profile = X, the dc maps to this, foaf maps to that, etc.

14:59:12 [Steven]

... and then making XHTML documents much easier to write, cut/paste and so on

15:00:26 [Steven]

Steven: Will the same notation (like namespaces) confuse people

15:00:40 [Steven]

Mark: Good question; one option is to change the syntax of CURIEs

15:01:02 [Steven]

... so they look different

15:01:43 [Steven]

... we could even let people define the separator

15:02:09 [Steven]

... but one scenario is that within the flexibility, we use xmlns as an option

15:02:20 [Steven]

[ADJOURN]

15:02:26 [Steven]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:02:26 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/23-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

15:02:35 [Zakim]

-ShaneM

15:02:37 [Zakim]

-Rich

15:02:39 [Zakim]

-Steven

15:02:41 [Zakim]

-markbirbeck

15:02:43 [Zakim]

-yamx

15:02:45 [Zakim]

IA_XHTML2()10:00AM has ended

15:02:47 [Zakim]

Attendees were Steven, Rich, yamx, markbirbeck, ShaneM

15:02:54 [Steven]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:02:54 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/23-xhtml-minutes.html Steven

15:14:04 [AGraf|mb]

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15:18:05 [AGraf|mb]

so, did i understand that correctly, the ftf in june has been cancelled?

15:18:33 [ShaneM]

yes. there may be an editors meeting that week, but the xhtml working group will not meet on the 11th and 12th.

15:18:43 [ShaneM]

the xforms group will still meet the balance of the week

15:18:53 [AGraf|mb]

ok, thanks

15:19:19 [AGraf|mb]

just so i'm not cancelling the flight for nothing...

15:19:26 [ShaneM]

heh.

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