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13:34:02 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/05/23-xhtml-irc
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13:34:17 <Steven> zakim, this will be xhtml
13:34:17 <Zakim> ok, Steven; I see IA_XHTML2()10:00AM scheduled to start in 26 minutes
13:34:25 <Steven> rrsagent, make log public
13:34:39 <Steven> Meeting: Weekly XHTML2 WG Teleconference
13:35:53 <Steven> Regrets: Alessio
13:36:11 <Steven> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007May/0015
13:36:18 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007May/0015
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13:56:23 <Steven> rrsagent, pointer?
13:56:23 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2007/05/23-xhtml-irc#T13-56-23
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14:00:22 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()10:00AM has now started
14:00:22 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #xhtml
14:00:30 <Zakim> +??P25
14:00:43 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
14:00:43 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:00:44 <Zakim> +Steven
14:01:04 <Steven> zakim, ??P25 is Rich
14:01:04 <Zakim> +Rich; got it
14:01:24 <Zakim> +??P31
14:01:36 <Steven> Regrets+ Tina
14:01:36 <yamx> This is Yam.
14:01:44 <Steven> Zakim, ??P31 is yamx
14:01:44 <Zakim> +yamx; got it
14:01:50 <Steven> Regrets+Susan
14:02:53 <Steven> Scribe: Steven
14:03:04 <Steven> Steven: Partial regrets from Alex
14:03:12 <Steven> ... he's only on irc
14:04:38 <Zakim> +??P21
14:04:47 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am ?
14:04:47 <Zakim> +markbirbeck; got it
14:04:56 <Steven> zakim, who is here?
14:04:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see Rich, Steven, yamx, markbirbeck
14:04:57 <Zakim> On IRC I see ShaneM, Rich, yamx, Steven, Tina, Zakim, RRSAgent, markbirbeck, Alex-DERI, krijnh
14:05:05 <Zakim> +ShaneM
14:05:41 <Steven> Mark: I propose Steven as chair
14:06:05 <Steven> Yam: Second
14:06:11 <Steven> Chair: Steven
14:06:52 <Steven> Topic: Announcements
14:07:53 <Steven> New members: Susan and John from Progeny
14:08:00 <Steven> (sent regrets for today)
14:08:08 <Steven> FtF in NYC in June
14:08:32 <Steven> Steven: My feeling is that not enough people could come in June
14:08:52 <Steven> ... so the nex next FtF will be in September
14:08:59 <Steven> ... In Madrid if I remember right
14:09:10 <Steven> s/nex/next/
14:09:28 <Steven> ... 10 and 11 September
14:09:37 <Steven> Mark: Yes, Madrid
14:10:27 <Steven> Steven: So do we want to have an editor's meeting on the Monday and or Tuesday?
14:10:58 <Steven> ... (let's do it offline)
14:11:07 <Steven> Reports back from conferences
14:11:19 <Alex-DERI> As I already said via mail, I got the OK from DERI, so I could attend the FTF meeting in june
14:11:23 <Steven> Steven: Mark and I were at the two main ewb conferences the last two weeks
14:11:57 <Steven> Steven: There was a panel on the future of HTML at XTech
14:15:58 <Steven> ... quite a lot of panelists
14:16:09 <Steven> ... only 45 minutes, so not as lot of time
14:16:22 <Steven> ... BBC interviewed me and Mike Smith (BBC) afterwards
14:16:50 <Steven> ... Another interesting presentation was Joost
14:17:07 <Steven> ... who showed a lovely system using compound documents, XHTML , CSS< SVG
14:17:21 <Steven> ... really nice, and using our idea of how it should be
14:18:00 <Steven> Mark: The mobile Ajax session was good too, talking about XForms, XHTML2 and so on
14:18:46 <Steven> ... I argued that you can do Ajax declaratively, and the session ended up talking about that as the main point
14:19:01 <Steven> ... Volantis backed me up on this
14:19:14 <Steven> ... they deliver XHTML2 and XForms to mobile devices by transformations
14:22:30 <Steven> Rich: Do we have any data on how much declarative saves?
14:22:57 <Steven> Steven: Yes, that is the core of my talks at the moment
14:23:23 <Steven> ... you can show that costs can be reduced to 3% by doing it declaratively
14:23:39 <Steven> ... and we have a couple of real-life examples to back that up
14:25:30 <Steven> Shane: I wonder if Tina can summarise the thread on www-html
14:25:36 <Steven> Steven: She sent regrets
14:26:18 <Steven> Shane: there were two main threads: 1) Why is HTML5 codifying broken behaviour
14:26:28 <Steven> ... why not separate implementation guidelines from spec
14:26:44 <Steven> ... 2) changing the semantics between HTML4 and 5
14:28:11 <Steven> Steven: It is not clear to me the best way to reach that group of people
14:28:22 <Steven> ... whether it is worth talking on those discussions or not
14:28:31 <Alex-DERI> As a side note, I'm on HTML5 too
14:29:28 <Steven> Mark: We need to clarify what the difference is between what we are doing and what they are doing
14:29:40 <Steven> Alex, so is Mark
14:30:27 <Alex-DERI> I know
14:32:54 <Steven> Mark: You can use XHTML2/XForms to show how much work you save compared with using libraries
14:33:42 <Steven> Topic: Validator
14:34:18 <Steven> Shane: I fixed the xmlns problem, and passed the changes on, and it will be in the next version
14:34:37 <Steven> ... so you can use xmlns:xxx in markup and not get validation errors
14:35:29 <Steven> ... but you still need a schema
14:37:29 <Steven> Steven: There was another mail from someone from Japan, mentioning a fix
14:37:37 <Steven> Shane: That was about C1 characters
14:37:49 <Steven> ... the validator is now fixed, but we need to update our specs
14:38:09 <Steven> ... because we ship xml declarations
14:38:18 <Steven> ... and they now need to be fixed
14:38:35 <Steven> Steven: In TR space?
14:38:38 <Steven> Shane: Yes
14:38:47 <Steven> ... but they don't show up in the spec
14:38:53 <Steven> ... I will approach Ian about it
14:39:35 <Steven> Steven: When will the xmlns fix be shipped?
14:39:40 <Steven> Shane: It is in beta now
14:40:03 <Steven> Topic: RDFa
14:43:13 <Steven> Steven: An excellent demo at XTech of an RDFa extension for Mozilla
14:44:31 <Steven> ... seems to point to maturity of RDFa
14:44:38 <Steven> ... we can move forward on this quite fast
14:44:51 <Steven> Mark: Lots of talks mentioned RDFa at WWW2007
14:45:21 <Steven> Topic: XML declaration
14:45:41 <Steven> Shane: I have just raised the problem with Ian Jacobs
14:45:50 <Steven> ... he says we can't fix it in place
14:45:59 <Steven> ... we have to reissue the specs
14:46:14 <Steven> Steven: Why?
14:46:18 <Steven> Shane: Just because
14:46:54 <Steven> Steven: So it would be a PER
14:46:56 <Steven> Shane: Yes
14:47:32 <Steven> Steven: Painless enough
14:48:08 <Steven> Topic: XML, XML DOM, and QNames
14:49:50 <Steven> Shane: I had an action item to ask how XML parsing works when QNames get turned into tuples
14:49:56 <Steven> ... the answer was "they don't"
14:50:07 <Steven> ... inside attributes
14:50:46 <Steven> ... and what we are trying to do is allow scoped attribute values in some taxonomy
14:51:09 <Steven> ... so an application has to do the interpretation itself
14:51:59 <Steven> ... So then I said to myself, if the parser isn't helping us, why are we using xmlns to establish the relationship?
14:52:32 <Steven> ... and the conclusion I reached with Mark, is that xmlns is something everyone understands, so we should use it
14:53:09 <Steven> ... but I wonder if we shouldn't use CURIEs, since they don't cary the baggage with them
14:53:17 <Steven> s/cary/cary/
14:53:23 <Steven> s/cary/carry/
14:53:36 <Steven> Mark: DO you mean to change the sysntax of CURIEs?
14:53:39 <Steven> Shane: No
14:53:45 <Steven> s/DO/Do/
14:54:21 <Steven> Mark: It should always have said CURIEs, but because of the pushback we were getting, we said let's use QNames for now
14:56:42 <Steven> Steven: Are you suggesting we use something other than xmlns for the prefixes?
14:57:01 <Steven> Mark: We can unbind the connection
14:57:17 <Steven> ... use xmlns, or triples using <link> for instance
14:57:49 <Steven> ... Jeremy Carroll was enthusiastic to use it for SPARQL
14:58:06 <Steven> ... and we can persuade IPTC to use it too
14:58:16 <Steven> ... and it would allow us to have default namespaces
14:58:23 <Steven> s/namespaces/prefixes/
14:58:46 <Steven> ... if profile = X, the dc maps to this, foaf maps to that, etc.
14:59:12 <Steven> ... and then making XHTML documents much easier to write, cut/paste and so on
15:00:26 <Steven> Steven: Will the same notation (like namespaces) confuse people
15:00:40 <Steven> Mark: Good question; one option is to change the syntax of CURIEs
15:01:02 <Steven> ... so they look different
15:01:43 <Steven> ... we could even let people define the separator
15:02:09 <Steven> ... but one scenario is that within the flexibility, we use xmlns as an option
15:02:20 <Steven> [ADJOURN]
15:02:26 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:02:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/23-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
15:02:35 <Zakim> -ShaneM
15:02:37 <Zakim> -Rich
15:02:39 <Zakim> -Steven
15:02:41 <Zakim> -markbirbeck
15:02:43 <Zakim> -yamx
15:02:45 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()10:00AM has ended
15:02:47 <Zakim> Attendees were Steven, Rich, yamx, markbirbeck, ShaneM
15:02:54 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:02:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2007/05/23-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
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15:18:05 <AGraf|mb> so, did i understand that correctly, the ftf in june has been cancelled?
15:18:33 <ShaneM>  yes.  there may be an editors meeting that week, but the xhtml working group will not meet on the 11th and 12th.
15:18:43 <ShaneM>  the xforms group will still meet the balance of the week
15:18:53 <AGraf|mb> ok, thanks
15:19:19 <AGraf|mb> just so i'm not cancelling the flight for nothing...
15:19:26 <ShaneM>  heh.  
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