13:51:20 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/03/16-sparql-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/03/16-sparql-irc ←
13:51:22 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
13:51:24 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 77277
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 77277 ←
13:51:24 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes ←
13:51:25 <trackbot> Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference
13:51:26 <trackbot> Date: 16 March 2010
13:51:26 <LeeF> zakim, this will be SPARQL
Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, this will be SPARQL ←
13:51:26 <Zakim> ok, LeeF; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, LeeF; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes ←
13:51:34 <LeeF> Chair: LeeF
13:51:40 <LeeF> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2010-03-16
13:54:41 <ivan> Regrets: Ivan
13:56:36 <LeeF> Regrets +AxelPolleres
(No events recorded for 5 minutes)
Lee Feigenbaum: Regrets +AxelPolleres ←
13:57:09 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started ←
13:57:16 <Zakim> +Lee_Feigenbaum
Zakim IRC Bot: +Lee_Feigenbaum ←
13:57:26 <LeeF> zakim, that's me!
Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, that's me! ←
13:57:26 <Zakim> I don't understand 'that's me!', LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'that's me!', LeeF ←
13:57:34 <LeeF> zakim, Lee_Feigenbaum is me
Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, Lee_Feigenbaum is me ←
13:57:34 <Zakim> +LeeF; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +LeeF; got it ←
13:58:11 <Zakim> + +1.518.276.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.518.276.aaaa ←
13:58:16 <kasei> Zakim, aaaa is me
Gregory Williams: Zakim, aaaa is me ←
13:58:16 <Zakim> +kasei; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +kasei; got it ←
13:58:51 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
13:59:06 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, IPCaller is me ←
13:59:08 <Zakim> +??P13
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P13 ←
13:59:11 <SteveH_> Zakim, ??P13 is me
Steve Harris: Zakim, ??P13 is me ←
13:59:12 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it ←
13:59:18 <Zakim> + +49.238.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: + +49.238.aabb ←
13:59:20 <Zakim> +SteveH_; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +SteveH_; got it ←
13:59:53 <OlivierCorby> Zakim, aabb is me
Olivier Corby: Zakim, aabb is me ←
13:59:53 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +OlivierCorby; got it ←
14:00:30 <bglimm> -me fighting with the phone in Karlsruhe... It doesnät allow me to enter the code Öß)
Birte Glimm: -me fighting with the phone in Karlsruhe... It doesnät allow me to enter the code Öß) ←
14:00:31 <LeeF> Scribenick: SteveH_
(Scribe set to Steve Harris)
14:01:04 <LeeF> zakim, who's on the phone?
Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, who's on the phone? ←
14:01:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see LeeF, kasei, AndyS, SteveH_, OlivierCorby
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see LeeF, kasei, AndyS, SteveH_, OlivierCorby ←
14:01:11 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aacc
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.603.897.aacc ←
14:01:19 <kasei> Zakim, mute me
Gregory Williams: Zakim, mute me ←
14:01:19 <Zakim> kasei should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: kasei should now be muted ←
14:01:25 <Zakim> +??P16
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P16 ←
14:01:39 <Zakim> +??P17
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P17 ←
14:01:42 <AlexPassant> Zakim, ??P17 is me
Alexandre Passant: Zakim, ??P17 is me ←
14:01:42 <Zakim> +AlexPassant; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AlexPassant; got it ←
14:01:50 <MattPerry> zakim, ??P16 is me
Matthew Perry: zakim, ??P16 is me ←
14:01:50 <Zakim> +MattPerry; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +MattPerry; got it ←
14:01:52 <AlexPassant> hi
Alexandre Passant: hi ←
14:01:57 <Souri> zakim, aacc us me
Souripriya Das: zakim, aacc us me ←
14:01:57 <Zakim> I don't understand 'aacc us me', Souri
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'aacc us me', Souri ←
14:02:06 <Souri> zakim, aacc is me
Souripriya Das: zakim, aacc is me ←
14:02:06 <Zakim> +Souri; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Souri; got it ←
14:02:39 <Zakim> + +1.919.332.aadd
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.919.332.aadd ←
14:02:45 <Zakim> +Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro ←
14:02:49 <dcharbon2> Zakim, aadd is me
David Charboneau: Zakim, aadd is me ←
14:02:49 <Zakim> +dcharbon2; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +dcharbon2; got it ←
14:03:05 <Zakim> + +1.312.863.aaee
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.312.863.aaee ←
14:03:22 <dcharbon2> zakim, mute me
David Charboneau: zakim, mute me ←
14:03:22 <Zakim> dcharbon2 should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: dcharbon2 should now be muted ←
14:03:32 <pgearon> Zakim, aaee is me
Paula Gearon: Zakim, aaee is me ←
14:03:32 <Zakim> +pgearon; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +pgearon; got it ←
14:03:48 <Zakim> + +1.216.444.aaff
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.216.444.aaff ←
14:04:24 <chimezie> Zakim, mute me
Chimezie Ogbuji: Zakim, mute me ←
14:04:24 <Zakim> sorry, chimezie, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, chimezie, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you ←
14:04:31 <chimezie> Zakim, who is on the phone?
Chimezie Ogbuji: Zakim, who is on the phone? ←
14:04:31 <Zakim> On the phone I see LeeF, kasei (muted), AndyS, SteveH_, OlivierCorby, Souri, MattPerry, AlexPassant, dcharbon2 (muted), Sandro, pgearon, +1.216.444.aaff
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see LeeF, kasei (muted), AndyS, SteveH_, OlivierCorby, Souri, MattPerry, AlexPassant, dcharbon2 (muted), Sandro, pgearon, +1.216.444.aaff ←
14:04:36 <LeeF> zakim, aaff is chimezie
Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, aaff is chimezie ←
14:04:37 <Zakim> +chimezie; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +chimezie; got it ←
14:04:41 <chimezie> ty
Chimezie Ogbuji: ty ←
14:05:10 <chimezie> Zakim, mute me
Chimezie Ogbuji: Zakim, mute me ←
14:05:10 <Zakim> chimezie should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: chimezie should now be muted ←
14:05:19 <LeeF> PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-03-09
PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-03-09 ←
14:06:10 <LeeF> RESOLVED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-03-09
RESOLVED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-03-09 ←
14:06:17 <SteveH_> LeeF: minutes capture handling of blanknodes in delete
Lee Feigenbaum: minutes capture handling of blanknodes in delete ←
14:06:30 <SteveH_> LeeF: try to have short call next week, 2 days before f2f
Lee Feigenbaum: try to have short call next week, 2 days before f2f ←
14:06:55 <SteveH_> ... set for F2F, go over agenda on last time, logistical issues, 20 min call
... set for F2F, go over agenda on last time, logistical issues, 20 min call ←
14:07:00 <AndyS> can we restrict it to process thing please?
Andy Seaborne: can we restrict it to process thing please? ←
14:07:14 <LeeF> Next meeting: 2010-03-23 @ 14:00 UK / 10:00 EST (scribe: Matt) - NOTE ONE HOUR EARLIER THAN USUAL OUTSIDE OF THE US
Lee Feigenbaum: Next meeting: 2010-03-23 @ 14:00 UK / 10:00 EST (scribe: Matt) - NOTE ONE HOUR EARLIER THAN USUAL OUTSIDE OF THE US ←
14:07:29 <SteveH_> LeeF: 4 hours difference to UK
Lee Feigenbaum: 4 hours difference to UK ←
14:07:53 <SteveH_> LeeF: should look at comments at F2F
Lee Feigenbaum: should look at comments at F2F ←
14:08:05 <Zakim> -AlexPassant
Zakim IRC Bot: -AlexPassant ←
14:08:30 <SteveH_> LeeF: RDB2RDF, noting to worry about
Lee Feigenbaum: RDB2RDF, noting to worry about ←
14:08:34 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/F2F3_Agenda
Lee Feigenbaum: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/F2F3_Agenda ←
14:08:43 <SteveH_> LeeF: agenda for F2F updated, ^
Lee Feigenbaum: agenda for F2F updated, ^ ←
14:08:56 <Zakim> + +33.7.21.60.8aagg
Zakim IRC Bot: + +33.7.21.60.8aagg ←
14:08:58 <Zakim> +??P26
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P26 ←
14:09:03 <AlexPassant> Zakim, ??PP26 is me
Alexandre Passant: Zakim, ??PP26 is me ←
14:09:03 <Zakim> sorry, AlexPassant, I do not recognize a party named '??PP26'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, AlexPassant, I do not recognize a party named '??PP26' ←
14:09:04 <SteveH_> ... update on day 1, goal is to finalise language, what statements are in/out
... update on day 1, goal is to finalise language, what statements are in/out ←
14:09:07 <AlexPassant> Zakim, ?PP26 is me
Alexandre Passant: Zakim, ?PP26 is me ←
14:09:07 <Zakim> sorry, AlexPassant, I do not recognize a party named '?PP26'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, AlexPassant, I do not recognize a party named '?PP26' ←
14:09:10 <SteveH_> ... seperaters, delimiters
... seperaters, delimiters ←
14:09:11 <AlexPassant> Zakim, ??P26 is me
Alexandre Passant: Zakim, ??P26 is me ←
14:09:11 <Zakim> +AlexPassant; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AlexPassant; got it ←
14:09:31 <SteveH_> LeeF: testcases, update issues, concurrency, transactions etc.
Lee Feigenbaum: testcases, update issues, concurrency, transactions etc. ←
14:09:45 <SteveH_> ... punt on the or have some sort of informative content (?)
... punt on the or have some sort of informative content (?) ←
14:09:46 <bglimm> Zakim, who is on the phone?
Birte Glimm: Zakim, who is on the phone? ←
14:09:46 <Zakim> On the phone I see LeeF, kasei (muted), AndyS, SteveH_, OlivierCorby, Souri, MattPerry, dcharbon2 (muted), Sandro, pgearon, chimezie (muted), +33.7.21.60.8aagg, AlexPassant
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see LeeF, kasei (muted), AndyS, SteveH_, OlivierCorby, Souri, MattPerry, dcharbon2 (muted), Sandro, pgearon, chimezie (muted), +33.7.21.60.8aagg, AlexPassant ←
14:10:00 <bglimm> Zakim, +33.7.21.60.8aagg is me
Birte Glimm: Zakim, +33.7.21.60.8aagg is me ←
14:10:00 <Zakim> +bglimm; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +bglimm; got it ←
14:10:06 <SteveH_> ... also a bit of time on a testsuite for update
... also a bit of time on a testsuite for update ←
14:10:17 <SteveH_> ... afternoon, open issues in protocol, HTTP update docs
... afternoon, open issues in protocol, HTTP update docs ←
14:10:23 <bglimm> Zakim, mute me
Birte Glimm: Zakim, mute me ←
14:10:23 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bglimm should now be muted ←
14:10:32 <SteveH_> ... protocol will be clearer when we've finished the update lang
... protocol will be clearer when we've finished the update lang ←
14:10:46 <SteveH_> ... day 2 big block of time to resolve open query issues
... day 2 big block of time to resolve open query issues ←
14:11:05 <SteveH_> ... decide on minus v's not exists
... decide on minus v's not exists ←
14:11:21 <SteveH_> ... resolve handling of errors in aggreagates, group by
... resolve handling of errors in aggreagates, group by ←
14:12:25 <SteveH_> ... property paths
... property paths ←
14:12:33 <SteveH_> ... afternoon, entailment issues
... afternoon, entailment issues ←
14:12:35 <bglimm> Zakim, unmute me
Birte Glimm: Zakim, unmute me ←
14:12:35 <Zakim> bglimm should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bglimm should no longer be muted ←
14:12:43 <SteveH_> ... entailment moving ahead nicely
... entailment moving ahead nicely ←
14:12:52 <SteveH_> noise on line
noise on line ←
14:13:10 <LeeF> zakim, mute bglimm
Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, mute bglimm ←
14:13:10 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bglimm should now be muted ←
14:13:19 <bglimm> Zakim, unmute me
Birte Glimm: Zakim, unmute me ←
14:13:19 <Zakim> bglimm should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bglimm should no longer be muted ←
14:13:38 <AndyS> zakim, who is speaking?
Andy Seaborne: zakim, who is speaking? ←
14:13:43 <LeeF> bglimm, we have to mute you because there's too much noise on your line
Lee Feigenbaum: bglimm, we have to mute you because there's too much noise on your line ←
14:13:47 <LeeF> Zakim, mute bglimm
Lee Feigenbaum: Zakim, mute bglimm ←
14:13:47 <Zakim> bglimm should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bglimm should now be muted ←
14:13:48 <bglimm> ok
Birte Glimm: ok ←
14:13:49 <Zakim> AndyS, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: AndyS (14%), bglimm (74%)
Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: AndyS (14%), bglimm (74%) ←
14:14:30 <SteveH_> LeeF: entailment seems to have good progress, discuss status
Lee Feigenbaum: entailment seems to have good progress, discuss status ←
14:14:35 <LeeF> bglimm, what I was saying is that I've seen very good progress on the entailment document over email and the entailment teleconferences, so we've set aside an hour to discuss with the whole group the status of the entailment work, but think that's in good shape and probably doesn't needmore time than that at the face to face
Lee Feigenbaum: bglimm, what I was saying is that I've seen very good progress on the entailment document over email and the entailment teleconferences, so we've set aside an hour to discuss with the whole group the status of the entailment work, but think that's in good shape and probably doesn't needmore time than that at the face to face ←
14:14:35 <SteveH_> .. doesn't need more time than that
.. doesn't need more time than that ←
14:14:54 <bglimm> seems reasonable
Birte Glimm: seems reasonable ←
14:14:58 <SteveH_> ... 1h for service description issues, few hanging around, overall in good shape
... 1h for service description issues, few hanging around, overall in good shape ←
14:15:18 <SteveH_> ... ambitious agenda, but important F2F
... ambitious agenda, but important F2F ←
14:15:27 <SteveH_> .. finalising spec text, thinking about LC
.. finalising spec text, thinking about LC ←
14:15:34 <SteveH_> ... finalising spec text, thinking about LC
... finalising spec text, thinking about LC ←
14:16:04 <SteveH_> AndyS: make sure time perm. features don't displace mandatory ones
Andy Seaborne: make sure time perm. features don't displace mandatory ones ←
14:16:19 <SteveH_> AndyS: eg. property paths last in query
Andy Seaborne: eg. property paths last in query ←
14:16:31 <SteveH_> LeeF: I'm going to keen an eye on it
Lee Feigenbaum: I'm going to keen an eye on it ←
14:16:56 <SteveH_> LeeF: property paths, func. lib. for almost all intents are deliverables, seen no show stopping issues, good progress
Lee Feigenbaum: property paths, func. lib. for almost all intents are deliverables, seen no show stopping issues, good progress ←
14:17:17 <SteveH_> LeeF: do want to talk about them early on, more concerned with federated query, discusss and beginning
Lee Feigenbaum: do want to talk about them early on, more concerned with federated query, discusss and beginning ←
14:17:26 <SteveH_> ... maybe relabel some
... maybe relabel some ←
14:17:51 <SteveH_> ... today, open issues for HTTP update, and property paths
... today, open issues for HTTP update, and property paths ←
14:18:03 <SteveH_> ... less open issues on http update
... less open issues on http update ←
14:18:09 <chimezie> Zakim, unmute me
Chimezie Ogbuji: Zakim, unmute me ←
14:18:09 <Zakim> chimezie should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: chimezie should no longer be muted ←
14:18:12 <SteveH_> ... improve visibility
... improve visibility ←
14:18:15 <LeeF> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010JanMar/0521.html
Lee Feigenbaum: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010JanMar/0521.html ←
14:18:43 <SteveH_> ... discussion around BASE URI for references and ?graph=
... discussion around BASE URI for references and ?graph= ←
14:18:51 <SteveH_> ... not totaly swapped in
... not totaly swapped in ←
14:19:10 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/http-rdf-update/
Lee Feigenbaum: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/http-rdf-update/ ←
14:19:19 <SteveH_> chimezie: removed editorial notes re. type of RDF payload, whether doc described REST style
Chimezie Ogbuji: removed editorial notes re. type of RDF payload, whether doc described REST style ←
14:19:32 <SteveH_> ... impl. of protocol should interpret contnet-type headers appropriately
... impl. of protocol should interpret contnet-type headers appropriately ←
14:19:42 <SteveH_> ... issues around making base URIs clear
... issues around making base URIs clear ←
14:19:59 <SteveH_> ... how do you determine what the base URI is
... how do you determine what the base URI is ←
14:20:20 <SteveH_> ... motivating usecase is where you you the ?graph=, in that scenario, depends how you interpret some RFC
... motivating usecase is where you you the ?graph=, in that scenario, depends how you interpret some RFC ←
14:20:43 <SteveH_> ... 2 sections that are relevant, "encapsulating entity", layered messages
... 2 sections that are relevant, "encapsulating entity", layered messages ←
14:21:08 <SteveH_> ... but it says that you can determine the base uri if there's [something]
... but it says that you can determine the base uri if there's [something] ←
14:21:24 <SteveH_> ... can be a way of tagging metadata for specific formats
... can be a way of tagging metadata for specific formats ←
14:21:39 <SteveH_> ... can say that ?graph= can specify the base URI
... can say that ?graph= can specify the base URI ←
14:21:57 <SteveH_> ... or can have conservative reading, should have RFC as normative reference
... or can have conservative reading, should have RFC as normative reference ←
14:22:10 <LeeF> http://foo.example.com/sparql?graph=g
Lee Feigenbaum: http://foo.example.com/sparql?graph=g ←
14:22:12 <SteveH_> LeeF: goal of usecase is so that if do HTTP op like:
Lee Feigenbaum: goal of usecase is so that if do HTTP op like: ←
14:22:34 <SteveH_> ... is there a reading that the RFC lets us treat <g> as the base URI
... is there a reading that the RFC lets us treat <g> as the base URI ←
14:23:01 <SteveH_> chimezie: language suggests we can provide a way to give it in context
Chimezie Ogbuji: language suggests we can provide a way to give it in context ←
14:23:09 <SteveH_> ... not neccesarily meant to support that
... not neccesarily meant to support that ←
14:23:16 <SteveH_> ... matter of how much you want this usecase
... matter of how much you want this usecase ←
14:23:18 <SteveH_> q+
q+ ←
14:23:27 <LeeF> <> a :NamedGraph
Lee Feigenbaum: <> a :NamedGraph ←
14:23:38 <LeeF> ack SteveH_
Lee Feigenbaum: ack SteveH_ ←
14:23:40 <SteveH_> ... in some situation you want the name of the graph...
... in some situation you want the name of the graph... ←
14:24:00 <LeeF> SteveH_: we use this approach a lot - without the base URI being the bit after graph=, it would be almost impossible to use it
Steve Harris: we use this approach a lot - without the base URI being the bit after graph=, it would be almost impossible to use it [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
14:24:13 <LeeF> ... we have a cache of a few million FOAF files, many of which use rdf:about="" to talk about the graph
Lee Feigenbaum: ... we have a cache of a few million FOAF files, many of which use rdf:about="" to talk about the graph ←
14:24:19 <LeeF> ... if the graph had the SPARQL endpoint prefix, it would be unhelpful
Lee Feigenbaum: ... if the graph had the SPARQL endpoint prefix, it would be unhelpful ←
14:24:52 <SteveH_> LeeF: I'd be surprised is anyone in the group who doesn't support that usecase
Lee Feigenbaum: I'd be surprised is anyone in the group who doesn't support that usecase ←
14:24:57 <SteveH_> ... does anyone not support?
... does anyone not support? ←
14:25:15 <SteveH_> ... question is, can we suport that usecase
... question is, can we suport that usecase ←
14:25:49 <SteveH_> ... do we hav a valid reading of the base URI stuff [to Sandro]
... do we hav a valid reading of the base URI stuff [to Sandro] ←
14:26:02 <SteveH_> sandro: there's a lot of people who might give it some thought
Sandro Hawke: there's a lot of people who might give it some thought ←
14:26:12 <SteveH_> ... formal way is as a editors comment in next draft
... formal way is as a editors comment in next draft ←
14:26:22 <SteveH_> LeeF: I think that's a good way to proceeed
Lee Feigenbaum: I think that's a good way to proceeed ←
14:26:50 <SteveH_> ... people looking at it from named graph p.o.v. will want it to work that way, but HTTP/REST people might not
... people looking at it from named graph p.o.v. will want it to work that way, but HTTP/REST people might not ←
14:27:06 <SteveH_> ... chimezie will put some text in that calls out this problem
... chimezie will put some text in that calls out this problem ←
14:27:16 <SteveH_> ... any more open issues?
... any more open issues? ←
14:27:23 <SteveH_> chimezie: no, not really
Chimezie Ogbuji: no, not really ←
14:27:38 <SteveH_> ... issues-20 is relevant
... issues-20 is relevant ←
14:27:50 <SteveH_> LeeF: hoping to resolve in update language
Lee Feigenbaum: hoping to resolve in update language ←
14:28:19 <AndyS> Different issue -- g must be an absolute URI? Hope so.
Andy Seaborne: Different issue -- g must be an absolute URI? Hope so. ←
14:28:55 <SteveH_> +1 to AndyS
+1 to AndyS ←
14:28:59 <chimezie> if it isn't the next level of precedence would be the retrieval URI
Chimezie Ogbuji: if it isn't the next level of precedence would be the retrieval URI ←
14:29:36 <SteveH_> LeeF: overall doc looks to be in good shape
Lee Feigenbaum: overall doc looks to be in good shape ←
14:29:45 <AndyS> Maybe not - ?graph=../otherPlace/graph1 - hmm
Andy Seaborne: Maybe not - ?graph=../otherPlace/graph1 - hmm ←
14:29:52 <SteveH_> ouch
ouch ←
14:30:05 <SteveH_> LeeF: have we discussed what testcases will look like
Lee Feigenbaum: have we discussed what testcases will look like ←
14:30:18 <SteveH_> chimezie: scope is well defined, I have some ideas
Chimezie Ogbuji: scope is well defined, I have some ideas ←
14:30:28 <SteveH_> .. not up to date on tools, e.g. EARL
.. not up to date on tools, e.g. EARL ←
14:31:29 <SteveH_> LeeF: will discuss testing at F2F
Lee Feigenbaum: will discuss testing at F2F ←
14:31:37 <LeeF> topic: property paths
14:31:39 <SteveH_> ... property paths:
... property paths: ←
14:31:57 <chimezie> Zakim, mute me
Chimezie Ogbuji: Zakim, mute me ←
14:31:57 <Zakim> chimezie should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: chimezie should now be muted ←
14:31:59 <LeeF> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010JanMar/0566.html
Lee Feigenbaum: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010JanMar/0566.html ←
14:33:13 <SteveH_> AndyS: description of multi-path issues
Andy Seaborne: description of multi-path issues ←
14:33:23 <SteveH_> ... should you see duplicates of ways from A to B
... should you see duplicates of ways from A to B ←
14:33:27 <LeeF> :a foaf:knows :b .
Lee Feigenbaum: :a foaf:knows :b . ←
14:33:27 <LeeF> :a foaf:knows :c .
Lee Feigenbaum: :a foaf:knows :c . ←
14:33:27 <LeeF> :b foaf:knows :d .
Lee Feigenbaum: :b foaf:knows :d . ←
14:33:27 <LeeF> :c foaf:knows :d .
Lee Feigenbaum: :c foaf:knows :d . ←
14:33:27 <LeeF> {?x foaf:knows{2} ?y}
Lee Feigenbaum: {?x foaf:knows{2} ?y} ←
14:33:35 <SteveH_> ... document is not clear
... document is not clear ←
14:33:50 <SteveH_> ... related to this is cycles
... related to this is cycles ←
14:34:12 <SteveH_> ... go round a loop and get back to where you started - those are important in the case of unbounded operators (*/+/,)
... go round a loop and get back to where you started - those are important in the case of unbounded operators (*/+/,) ←
14:34:27 <SteveH_> ... in those cases you don't want infinite answers
... in those cases you don't want infinite answers ←
14:34:44 <SteveH_> ... proposal is to define fixed length ones to triple expansions, define operators not to duplicate
... proposal is to define fixed length ones to triple expansions, define operators not to duplicate ←
14:34:58 <SteveH_> ... equivalent to "simple paths" in graph theory
... equivalent to "simple paths" in graph theory ←
14:35:12 <SteveH_> ... can get surprises, but it's a consequence of balance
... can get surprises, but it's a consequence of balance ←
14:35:19 <SteveH_> ... of intuition
... of intuition ←
14:35:45 <SteveH_> LeeF: so, fixed length property paths should be equiv to expansion pattern
Lee Feigenbaum: so, fixed length property paths should be equiv to expansion pattern ←
14:35:54 <SteveH_> ... can you repeat description of cycles proposal
... can you repeat description of cycles proposal ←
14:35:59 <SteveH_> AndyS: consider:
Andy Seaborne: consider: ←
14:36:00 <AndyS> Consider ?x foaf:knows* ?y
Andy Seaborne: Consider ?x foaf:knows* ?y ←
14:36:09 <SteveH_> ... on data above
... on data above ←
14:36:24 <AndyS> :a foaf:knows* ?y
Andy Seaborne: :a foaf:knows* ?y ←
14:36:37 <SteveH_> ... so there's two paths from :a to :b
... so there's two paths from :a to :c ←
14:36:53 <SteveH_> s/:b/:c/
14:36:59 <LeeF> to :d actually
Lee Feigenbaum: to :d actually ←
14:37:04 <bglimm> but how do you rewrite that into standard BGPs without knowing the graph?
Birte Glimm: but how do you rewrite that into standard BGPs without knowing the graph? ←
14:37:16 <SteveH_> q+
q+ ←
14:37:29 <bglimm> ah, so the non-fixed length ones are not being rewritten
Birte Glimm: ah, so the non-fixed length ones are not being rewritten ←
14:37:43 <LeeF> q+
Lee Feigenbaum: q+ ←
14:37:46 <LeeF> ack SteveH_
Lee Feigenbaum: ack SteveH_ ←
14:37:47 <pgearon> q+
Paula Gearon: q+ ←
14:37:48 <SteveH_> AndyS: proposal is that operators won't return dups
Andy Seaborne: proposal is that operators won't return dups ←
14:38:21 <LeeF> SteveH_: What values does ?y take? :a (zero length), :b, :c, :d -- one of each as proposed
Steve Harris: What values does ?y take? :a (zero length), :b, :c, :d -- one of each as proposed [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
14:39:38 <LeeF> ack LeeF
Lee Feigenbaum: ack LeeF ←
14:40:09 <SteveH_> LeeF: was going to suggest not following same edge twice, need to thing about it
Lee Feigenbaum: was going to suggest not following same edge twice, need to thing about it ←
14:40:13 <LeeF> ack pgearon
Lee Feigenbaum: ack pgearon ←
14:40:26 <SteveH_> pgearon: add comment about unbounded ops
Paula Gearon: add comment about unbounded ops ←
14:40:44 <SteveH_> ... agree with no dups, when loops are present
... agree with no dups, when loops are present ←
14:40:53 <SteveH_> ... don't see any reason to stop at 2
... don't see any reason to stop at 2 ←
14:41:07 <SteveH_> ... if there's a loop, only the single result is relevant
... if there's a loop, only the single result is relevant ←
14:42:50 <chimezie> Zakim, unmute me
Chimezie Ogbuji: Zakim, unmute me ←
14:42:50 <Zakim> chimezie should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: chimezie should no longer be muted ←
14:43:02 <SteveH_> AndyS: might be possible to define it in terms of not going through the same node twice
Andy Seaborne: might be possible to define it in terms of not going through the same node twice ←
14:43:10 <SteveH_> LeeF: might be worth sketching that out
Lee Feigenbaum: might be worth sketching that out ←
14:43:17 <SteveH_> AndyS: yes
Andy Seaborne: yes ←
14:43:35 <SteveH_> chimezie: if you exlucde the dups, you have counter-intuative answers
Chimezie Ogbuji: if you exlucde the dups, you have counter-intuative answers ←
14:43:48 <SteveH_> ... I assumed it wouldn't affect cases where you didn't have cycles
... I assumed it wouldn't affect cases where you didn't have cycles ←
14:44:10 <SteveH_> LeeF: when you use a non-fixed operator, even without loops you can DISTINCT
Lee Feigenbaum: when you use a non-fixed operator, even without loops you can DISTINCT ←
14:44:20 <SteveH_> ... as a simple way to solve problem
... as a simple way to solve problem ←
14:44:37 <SteveH_> chimezie: I would agree that we should look at more direct soltuion to no loops
Chimezie Ogbuji: I would agree that we should look at more direct soltuion to no loops ←
14:44:50 <SteveH_> LeeF: I will try to write that up, but don't know if I can
Lee Feigenbaum: I will try to write that up, but don't know if I can ←
14:44:58 <SteveH_> ... leave open for ML discussion
... leave open for ML discussion ←
14:45:19 <SteveH_> AndyS: would still get different cardinalities, but may be more consistent
Andy Seaborne: would still get different cardinalities, but may be more consistent ←
14:45:26 <SteveH_> ... and maybe easier to implement
... and maybe easier to implement ←
14:46:13 <SteveH_> LeeF: cycles and dups, continue discussions
Lee Feigenbaum: cycles and dups, continue discussions ←
14:46:15 <LeeF> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010JanMar/0568.html
Lee Feigenbaum: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010JanMar/0568.html ←
14:46:22 <SteveH_> ... negated prop. classes
... negated prop. classes ←
14:46:52 <SteveH_> AndyS: suggestion around neg clasess, other systems have something similar, it's quite natural
Andy Seaborne: suggestion around neg clasess, other systems have something similar, it's quite natural ←
14:47:07 <SteveH_> ... exclude some properties, e.g. is rdf:type, want to find non-type connections
... exclude some properties, e.g. is rdf:type, want to find non-type connections ←
14:47:31 <SteveH_> ... wondering whether you need both forwards and backwards, not convinved in all cases, would be easier to impl. without backwards
... wondering whether you need both forwards and backwards, not convinved in all cases, would be easier to impl. without backwards ←
14:47:45 <SteveH_> LeeF: can ask if there's any connection whatsoever?
Lee Feigenbaum: can ask if there's any connection whatsoever? ←
14:47:56 <SteveH_> AndyS: yes
Andy Seaborne: yes ←
14:48:21 <SteveH_> LeeF: that's not the same as allowing varaibles, because you can't ak what the path is
Lee Feigenbaum: that's not the same as allowing varaibles, because you can't ak what the path is ←
14:48:33 <SteveH_> AndyS: don't have to decide how to return results
Andy Seaborne: don't have to decide how to return results ←
14:48:42 <SteveH_> ... it doesn't open /that/ can of worms
... it doesn't open /that/ can of worms ←
14:48:50 <SteveH_> LeeF: do you impl.?
Lee Feigenbaum: do you impl.? ←
14:49:05 <SteveH_> AndyS: experiementally, fixed direction case is doable, and natural
Andy Seaborne: experiementally, fixed direction case is doable, and natural ←
14:49:24 <SteveH_> ... not done forwards and reverse, think I understood it, ran out of time
... not done forwards and reverse, think I understood it, ran out of time ←
14:49:51 <SteveH_> chimezie: versa is most similar, we had negation, it was useful
Chimezie Ogbuji: versa is most similar, we had negation, it was useful ←
14:50:00 <SteveH_> ... it was straightforward
... it was straightforward ←
14:50:13 <SteveH_> AndyS: did you allow negation of forwards and backwards at same time
Andy Seaborne: did you allow negation of forwards and backwards at same time ←
14:50:15 <SteveH_> q+
q+ ←
14:50:32 <SteveH_> ... my feeling at the moment is that the fixed direction case is OK, mixed is not easy
... my feeling at the moment is that the fixed direction case is OK, mixed is not easy ←
14:50:39 <LeeF> ack SteveH_
Lee Feigenbaum: ack SteveH_ ←
14:50:55 <LeeF> SteveH_: what's the use case for the reverse direction?
Steve Harris: what's the use case for the reverse direction? [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ] ←
14:51:00 <LeeF> ... in this scenario
Lee Feigenbaum: ... in this scenario ←
14:52:26 <pgearon> +1
Paula Gearon: +1 ←
14:53:00 <SteveH_> LeeF: like to poll group on neg in property paths
Lee Feigenbaum: like to poll group on neg in property paths ←
14:53:12 <SteveH_> ... take Andy's email as a start, noodle on it a bit
... take Andy's email as a start, noodle on it a bit ←
14:53:20 <SteveH_> ... see if we can resolve at F2F
... see if we can resolve at F2F ←
14:53:37 <LeeF> straw poll: gut feeling on including ! (negation operator) in property paths
Lee Feigenbaum: straw poll: gut feeling on including ! (negation operator) in property paths ←
14:53:48 <chimezie> +1 (but not both)
Chimezie Ogbuji: +1 (but not both) ←
14:53:58 <SteveH_> +1 (but not both)
+1 (but not both) ←
14:53:59 <AlexPassant> +1
Alexandre Passant: +1 ←
14:54:03 <AndyS> +1
Andy Seaborne: +1 ←
14:54:04 <OlivierCorby> +1
Olivier Corby: +1 ←
14:54:06 <chimezie> i.e., not negation for bidrectional paths
Chimezie Ogbuji: i.e., not negation for bidrectional paths ←
14:54:14 <LeeF> 0
Lee Feigenbaum: 0 ←
14:54:15 <kasei> 0
14:54:21 <bglimm> -0 (seems making evaluation really harder)
Birte Glimm: -0 (seems making evaluation really harder) ←
14:54:23 <MattPerry> 0
Matthew Perry: 0 ←
14:55:24 <SteveH_> I change to 0
I change to 0 ←
14:55:29 <SteveH_> scared!
scared! ←
14:55:34 <pgearon> I have to say 0
Paula Gearon: I have to say 0 ←
14:55:37 <AndyS> My impl is one Java class for the evaluator.
Andy Seaborne: My impl is one Java class for the evaluator. ←
14:56:31 <AndyS> q+
Andy Seaborne: q+ ←
14:56:42 <LeeF> ack AndyS
Lee Feigenbaum: ack AndyS ←
14:56:52 <SteveH_> AndyS: impl. exp. would be good, but usecases also very useful
Andy Seaborne: impl. exp. would be good, but usecases also very useful ←
14:56:56 <LeeF> seconded - use cases here will let us know how useful this is
Lee Feigenbaum: seconded - use cases here will let us know how useful this is ←
14:57:37 <SteveH_> LeeF: not going to talk about update, out of time
Lee Feigenbaum: not going to talk about update, out of time ←
14:58:05 <SteveH_> AndyS: havent discusses binary/unary ^ operator
Andy Seaborne: havent discusses binary/unary ^ operator ←
14:58:20 <SteveH_> ... preference for unary in WG, binary outside
... preference for unary in WG, binary outside ←
14:58:40 <SteveH_> ... it's always a unary operator, q is if you can write short form
... it's always a unary operator, q is if you can write short form ←
14:58:47 <bglimm> well, implementation experience is one thing, but I am also wondering whether that does not push BGP evaluation into higher complexity classes (regular expressions are so close to finite state automata and complement there causes an exponential blow up of the states, in OWL property negation makes reasoning undecidable, so all that raised some warnings to me)
Birte Glimm: well, implementation experience is one thing, but I am also wondering whether that does not push BGP evaluation into higher complexity classes (regular expressions are so close to finite state automata and complement there causes an exponential blow up of the states, in OWL property negation makes reasoning undecidable, so all that raised some warnings to me) ←
14:59:05 <SteveH_> didn't hear andy
didn't hear andy ←
14:59:33 <bglimm> ah, to me they suggested a breakfast
Birte Glimm: ah, to me they suggested a breakfast ←
14:59:48 <SteveH_> breakfast on 26th would make sense
breakfast on 26th would make sense ←
14:59:58 <Zakim> -chimezie
Zakim IRC Bot: -chimezie ←
15:00:00 <Zakim> -Souri
Zakim IRC Bot: -Souri ←
15:00:00 <Zakim> -SteveH_
Zakim IRC Bot: -SteveH_ ←
15:00:01 <Zakim> -LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: -LeeF ←
15:00:02 <Zakim> -kasei
Zakim IRC Bot: -kasei ←
15:00:03 <Zakim> -Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro ←
15:00:04 <Zakim> -bglimm
Zakim IRC Bot: -bglimm ←
15:00:05 <Zakim> -MattPerry
Zakim IRC Bot: -MattPerry ←
15:00:05 <Zakim> -dcharbon2
Zakim IRC Bot: -dcharbon2 ←
15:00:05 <MattPerry> quit
Matthew Perry: quit ←
15:00:07 <Zakim> -pgearon
Zakim IRC Bot: -pgearon ←
15:00:09 <Zakim> -OlivierCorby
Zakim IRC Bot: -OlivierCorby ←
15:00:15 <kasei> AndyS, did you see my question regarding the RV-2 response?
Gregory Williams: AndyS, did you see my question regarding the RV-2 response? ←
15:00:16 <Zakim> -AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS ←
15:00:41 <AndyS> Err - no - pointer to email?
Andy Seaborne: Err - no - pointer to email? ←
15:00:44 <kasei> wondering if the @@ comments were for me, you, or somebody else (Steve?)
Gregory Williams: wondering if the @@ comments were for me, you, or somebody else (Steve?) ←
15:00:57 <kasei> no email... was in here yesterday at some point.
Gregory Williams: no email... was in here yesterday at some point. ←
15:01:15 <kasei> I'd like to finish up that response and get it off if possible.
Gregory Williams: I'd like to finish up that response and get it off if possible. ←
15:01:20 <AndyS> Ah - in the draft - @@ are "should be done (IMHO)"
Andy Seaborne: Ah - in the draft - @@ are "should be done (IMHO)" ←
15:01:41 <bglimm> If the SWIG does not plan for a dinner, I would suggest I reserve a table at some nearby restaurant, otherwise they might plan the evening?
Birte Glimm: If the SWIG does not plan for a dinner, I would suggest I reserve a table at some nearby restaurant, otherwise they might plan the evening? ←
15:02:09 <kasei> as in, that's part of the response?
Gregory Williams: as in, that's part of the response? ←
15:02:21 <AndyS> Mostly aggregates and the text so far didn't seen to cover it (steve?) RV split his comments up and scatter aggs over the whole email.
Andy Seaborne: Mostly aggregates and the text so far didn't seen to cover it (steve?) RV split his comments up and scatter aggs over the whole email. ←
15:03:07 <AndyS> we should add text there - @@ is W3C speak for "to be done"
Andy Seaborne: we should add text there - @@ is W3C speak for "to be done" ←
15:03:32 <kasei> right. i was just wondering if that was for your benefit, or if somebody else should be looking at addressing the "to be done" state of things.
Gregory Williams: right. i was just wondering if that was for your benefit, or if somebody else should be looking at addressing the "to be done" state of things. ←
15:04:24 <AndyS> My part is done but if you think there is something I need to attend to then do say. aggs is SteveH_
Andy Seaborne: My part is done but if you think there is something I need to attend to then do say. aggs is SteveH_ ←
15:04:32 <AndyS> (sorry SteveH_)
Andy Seaborne: (sorry SteveH_) ←
15:04:39 <kasei> ah, ok. that's what I was after. thanks.
Gregory Williams: ah, ok. that's what I was after. thanks. ←
15:04:46 <kasei> SteveH_, still around?
Gregory Williams: SteveH_, still around? ←
15:04:49 <SteveH_> yeah, hi
yeah, hi ←
15:04:52 <SteveH_> reading back
reading back ←
15:05:25 <AndyS> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/CommentResponse:RV-2
Andy Seaborne: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/CommentResponse:RV-2 ←
15:06:42 <SteveH_> I thought I'd addressed all the aggregate stuff
I thought I'd addressed all the aggregate stuff ←
15:07:33 <kasei> I think AndyS filled out my summarization of the issues that Rob talked about, leaving room for more responses :)
Gregory Williams: I think AndyS filled out my summarization of the issues that Rob talked about, leaving room for more responses :) ←
15:08:53 <SteveH_> oh, he has some comments on issues 35,36,39,40
oh, he has some comments on issues 35,36,39,40 ←
15:08:59 <SteveH_> I'll write some text for those
I'll write some text for those ←
15:09:40 <kasei> thanks. appreciate it. can you ping me at some point after you do that?
Gregory Williams: thanks. appreciate it. can you ping me at some point after you do that? ←
15:11:45 <Zakim> -AlexPassant
Zakim IRC Bot: -AlexPassant ←
15:11:47 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended ←
15:11:52 <Zakim> Attendees were LeeF, +1.518.276.aaaa, kasei, AndyS, +49.238.aabb, SteveH_, OlivierCorby, +1.603.897.aacc, AlexPassant, MattPerry, Souri, +1.919.332.aadd, Sandro, dcharbon2,
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were LeeF, +1.518.276.aaaa, kasei, AndyS, +49.238.aabb, SteveH_, OlivierCorby, +1.603.897.aacc, AlexPassant, MattPerry, Souri, +1.919.332.aadd, Sandro, dcharbon2, ←
15:11:54 <Zakim> ... +1.312.863.aaee, pgearon, +1.216.444.aaff, chimezie, bglimm
Zakim IRC Bot: ... +1.312.863.aaee, pgearon, +1.216.444.aaff, chimezie, bglimm ←
15:13:27 <SteveH_> kasei, AndyS. updated wiki page
kasei, AndyS. updated wiki page ←
15:14:04 <kasei> ah, fantastic. thanks.
Gregory Williams: ah, fantastic. thanks. ←
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