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17:58:03 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/03/10-sparql-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/03/10-sparql-irc ←
17:58:10 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
Ivan Herman: rrsagent, set log public ←
17:58:10 <bglimm> Access Code: 772775
Birte Glimm: Access Code: 772775 ←
17:58:17 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip ←
17:58:17 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made ←
17:58:18 <Zakim> Team_(sparql)17:52Z has now started
Zakim IRC Bot: Team_(sparql)17:52Z has now started ←
17:58:20 <Zakim> +Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan ←
17:58:32 <AxelPolleres> i need to dial via skype, hope that works...
Axel Polleres: i need to dial via skype, hope that works... ←
17:58:55 <Zakim> +bglimm
Zakim IRC Bot: +bglimm ←
17:58:58 <Zakim> -Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan ←
17:58:59 <Zakim> +Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan ←
17:59:03 <AxelPolleres> BTW: sent somt very late commments to chime's draft just now... sorry for not having more details yet.
Scribe problem: the name 'BTW' does not match any of the 63 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ahmed Ezzat Alexandre Passant Andrea Westerinen Andrei Lopatenko Andy Seaborne Axel Polleres Bijan Parsia Birte Glimm Bryan Thompson Chimezie Ogbuji Cui Tao Daniel Schutzer Dave Beckett David Charboneau David Newman Davide Palmisano Dhanapalan Kulandai Vadivel Dirk Colaert Dirk-Willem van Gulik Edward Thomas Elias Torres Enrico Franconi Eric Prud'hommeaux Frank Careccia Fred Zemke Gregory Williams Hiroyuki Sato Ivan Mikhailov Ivan Herman Jacek Kopecký Jari Vänttinen Jean-François Baget Jeen Broekstra Jeff Pollock John Clark Jos De Roo Kendall Clark Kevin Wilkinson Lee Feigenbaum Luke Wilson-Mawer Matthew Perry Michael Smith Michele Minno Nophadol Jekjantuk Olivier Corby Orri Erling Paula Gearon Prateek Jain Rachel Yager Roland Schwaenzl Sandro Hawke Sergio Tessaris Simon Johnston Simon Schenk Souripriya Das Steve Harris Sven Groppe Timo Westkämper Tommi Koivula Yoshio Fukushige Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown BTW: sent somt very late commments to chime's draft just now... sorry for not having more details yet. [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
17:59:36 <bglimm> I just saw them right now
Birte Glimm: I just saw them right now ←
18:00:32 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, code?
Axel Polleres: Zakim, code? ←
18:00:32 <Zakim> the conference code is 772775 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), AxelPolleres
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 772775 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), AxelPolleres ←
18:01:04 <Zakim> +??P1
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P1 ←
18:01:12 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, ??P1 is me
Axel Polleres: Zakim, ??P1 is me ←
18:01:12 <Zakim> +AxelPolleres; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AxelPolleres; got it ←
18:03:23 <Zakim> + +1.216.773.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.216.773.aaaa ←
18:05:07 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
18:06:25 <bglimm> q+
Birte Glimm: q+ ←
18:07:31 <bglimm> ack Ivan
Birte Glimm: ack Ivan ←
18:07:40 <AxelPolleres> so.. we agree we speak about RIF-simple, fine.
Axel Polleres: so.. we agree we speak about RIF-simple, fine. ←
18:08:38 <AxelPolleres> q+ to note that we have to be careful here!!!
Axel Polleres: q+ to note that we have to be careful here!!! ←
18:08:55 <AxelPolleres> ... for the reason of rif:imports
Axel Polleres: ... for the reason of rif:imports ←
18:09:27 <bglimm> rif:imports or sparql-rif:usesRuleSet
Scribe problem: the name 'rif' does not match any of the 63 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ahmed Ezzat Alexandre Passant Andrea Westerinen Andrei Lopatenko Andy Seaborne Axel Polleres Bijan Parsia Birte Glimm Bryan Thompson Chimezie Ogbuji Cui Tao Daniel Schutzer Dave Beckett David Charboneau David Newman Davide Palmisano Dhanapalan Kulandai Vadivel Dirk Colaert Dirk-Willem van Gulik Edward Thomas Elias Torres Enrico Franconi Eric Prud'hommeaux Frank Careccia Fred Zemke Gregory Williams Hiroyuki Sato Ivan Mikhailov Ivan Herman Jacek Kopecký Jari Vänttinen Jean-François Baget Jeen Broekstra Jeff Pollock John Clark Jos De Roo Kendall Clark Kevin Wilkinson Lee Feigenbaum Luke Wilson-Mawer Matthew Perry Michael Smith Michele Minno Nophadol Jekjantuk Olivier Corby Orri Erling Paula Gearon Prateek Jain Rachel Yager Roland Schwaenzl Sandro Hawke Sergio Tessaris Simon Johnston Simon Schenk Souripriya Das Steve Harris Sven Groppe Timo Westkämper Tommi Koivula Yoshio Fukushige Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown rif: imports or sparql-rif:usesRuleSet [ Scribe Assist by Birte Glimm ] ←
18:09:53 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/CR-rif-rdf-owl-20091001/#Appendix:_Embeddings_.28Informative.29
Axel Polleres: http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/CR-rif-rdf-owl-20091001/#Appendix:_Embeddings_.28Informative.29 ←
18:10:08 <bglimm> ack bglimm
Birte Glimm: ack bglimm ←
18:10:30 <bglimm> I ack'ed me me because I wanted to say basically what Ivan explains
Birte Glimm: I ack'ed me me because I wanted to say basically what Ivan explains ←
18:10:46 <AxelPolleres> The appendix has - implicitly - the rulesets which do RIF-RDF, RIF-RDFS
Axel Polleres: The appendix has - implicitly - the rulesets which do RIF-RDF, RIF-RDFS ←
18:13:39 <bglimm> ack AxelPolleres
Birte Glimm: ack AxelPolleres ←
18:13:39 <Zakim> AxelPolleres, you wanted to note that we have to be careful here!!!
Zakim IRC Bot: AxelPolleres, you wanted to note that we have to be careful here!!! ←
18:14:15 <AxelPolleres> we COULD just say that we don't treat higher profiles...
Axel Polleres: we COULD just say that we don't treat higher profiles... ←
18:16:13 <AxelPolleres> <http://www.w3.org/2007/rif-import-profile#Simple> rif-rdf:usingRuleset
Axel Polleres: <http://www.w3.org/2007/rif-import-profile#Simple> rif-rdf:usingRuleset ←
18:16:13 <AxelPolleres> <Ruleset>
Axel Polleres: <Ruleset> ←
18:17:32 <AxelPolleres> the trick is, that this would be just the same as saying Imports (G <http://www.w3.org/2007/rif-import-profile#Simple>) in the Graph.
Axel Polleres: the trick is, that this would be just the same as saying Imports (G <http://www.w3.org/2007/rif-import-profile#Simple>) in the Graph. ←
18:20:09 <AxelPolleres> Import( G profile )
Axel Polleres: Import( G profile ) ←
18:22:37 <AxelPolleres> Chime argues that since the embeddings are "Informative" we can't take them "as is".
Axel Polleres: Chime argues that since the embeddings are "Informative" we can't take them "as is". ←
18:25:07 <AxelPolleres> example .... the rule { s p o } :- { [] rdf:_6 [] } will "imply" a different graph whether simple or RDF profile is used.
Axel Polleres: example .... the rule { s p o } :- { [] rdf:_6 [] } will "imply" a different graph whether simple or RDF profile is used. ←
18:27:26 <chimezie> can you paste again?
Chimezie Ogbuji: can you paste again? ←
18:27:34 <bglimm> Is it not { rdf:_6 [] [] } because the axiomatic triple is rdf:_6 rdf:type rdf:Property?
Birte Glimm: Is it not { rdf:_6 [] [] } because the axiomatic triple is rdf:_6 rdf:type rdf:Property? ←
18:27:35 <AxelPolleres> example .... the rule { s p o } :- { [] rdf:_6 [] } will "imply" a different graph whether simple or RDF profile is used.
Axel Polleres: example .... the rule { s p o } :- { [] rdf:_6 [] } will "imply" a different graph whether simple or RDF profile is used. ←
18:27:53 <AxelPolleres> ah, sorry, right birte...
Axel Polleres: ah, sorry, right birte... ←
18:28:06 <bglimm> Ok, I just thought I might be confused.
Birte Glimm: Ok, I just thought I might be confused. ←
18:28:23 <AxelPolleres> I meant { rdf:_6 a [] }
Axel Polleres: I meant { rdf:_6 a [] } ←
18:28:30 <AxelPolleres> in the body.
Axel Polleres: in the body. ←
18:28:38 <bglimm> ups, yeah no bnodes in pred position
Birte Glimm: ups, yeah no bnodes in pred position ←
18:28:57 <chimezie> i don't think that rule is safe
Chimezie Ogbuji: i don't think that rule is safe ←
18:29:15 <AxelPolleres> the rule is safe ... it is ground
Axel Polleres: the rule is safe ... it is ground ←
18:29:35 <AxelPolleres> ah, sorry...
Axel Polleres: ah, sorry... ←
18:30:13 <AxelPolleres> ... not ground, but safe still ... actually you can't write it liket at.
Axel Polleres: ... not ground, but safe still ... actually you can't write it liket at. ←
18:30:57 <AxelPolleres> {s p o } :- { rdf:_666 a ?x} would work
Axel Polleres: {s p o } :- { rdf:_666 a ?x} would work ←
18:31:39 <bglimm> (C1) The RDF triples sk(P(BGP)) are ground and RDF entailed by sk(SG).
Birte Glimm: (C1) The RDF triples sk(P(BGP)) are ground and RDF entailed by sk(SG). ←
18:31:39 <bglimm> (C2) For each variable x in V(BGP), sk(μ(x)) occurs in sk(SG) or in rdfV-Minus.
Birte Glimm: (C2) For each variable x in V(BGP), sk(μ(x)) occurs in sk(SG) or in rdfV-Minus. ←
18:32:25 <AxelPolleres> I think/hope that we could use Birte's C1 C2 conditions analogously for the RIF-RDF and RIF-RDFS combinations ... more *hope* for the moment ;-)
Axel Polleres: I think/hope that we could use Birte's C1 C2 conditions analogously for the RIF-RDF and RIF-RDFS combinations ... more *hope* for the moment ;-) ←
18:32:28 <bglimm> rdf:_666
Scribe problem: the name 'rdf' does not match any of the 63 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ahmed Ezzat Alexandre Passant Andrea Westerinen Andrei Lopatenko Andy Seaborne Axel Polleres Bijan Parsia Birte Glimm Bryan Thompson Chimezie Ogbuji Cui Tao Daniel Schutzer Dave Beckett David Charboneau David Newman Davide Palmisano Dhanapalan Kulandai Vadivel Dirk Colaert Dirk-Willem van Gulik Edward Thomas Elias Torres Enrico Franconi Eric Prud'hommeaux Frank Careccia Fred Zemke Gregory Williams Hiroyuki Sato Ivan Mikhailov Ivan Herman Jacek Kopecký Jari Vänttinen Jean-François Baget Jeen Broekstra Jeff Pollock John Clark Jos De Roo Kendall Clark Kevin Wilkinson Lee Feigenbaum Luke Wilson-Mawer Matthew Perry Michael Smith Michele Minno Nophadol Jekjantuk Olivier Corby Orri Erling Paula Gearon Prateek Jain Rachel Yager Roland Schwaenzl Sandro Hawke Sergio Tessaris Simon Johnston Simon Schenk Souripriya Das Steve Harris Sven Groppe Timo Westkämper Tommi Koivula Yoshio Fukushige Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown rdf: _666 [ Scribe Assist by Birte Glimm ] ←
18:38:32 <AxelPolleres> btw, in the latest Editor's draft, the entailment profile URIs in RIF have been changed: e.g. <http://www.w3.org/ns/entailment/Simple>
(No events recorded for 6 minutes)
Axel Polleres: btw, in the latest Editor's draft, the entailment profile URIs in RIF have been changed: e.g. <http://www.w3.org/ns/entailment/Simple> ←
18:39:40 <AxelPolleres> so, my above would be... <http://www.w3.org/ns/entailment/Simple> rif-rdf:usingRuleset <Ruleset> .
Axel Polleres: so, my above would be... <http://www.w3.org/ns/entailment/Simple> rif-rdf:usingRuleset <Ruleset> . ←
18:43:23 <bglimm> Why talk about the rdfs:subClassOf editorial note because there is some extra note in RIF related to that
Birte Glimm: We talk about the rdfs:subClassOf editorial note because there is some extra note in RIF related to that ←
18:43:31 <bglimm> s/Why/We
18:44:45 <AxelPolleres> x##Y
Axel Polleres: x##Y ←
18:46:52 <AxelPolleres> Birte,Ivan: not really a problem for us, as long as we restrict to RIF Core.
Axel Polleres: Birte,Ivan: not really a problem for us, as long as we restrict to RIF Core. ←
18:47:04 <AxelPolleres> ... but still a pain.
Axel Polleres: ... but still a pain. ←
18:48:03 <AxelPolleres> q+ can we get back just quickly to ## ?
Axel Polleres: q+ can we get back just quickly to ## ? ←
18:52:09 <AxelPolleres> Imports( G <profile> )
Axel Polleres: Imports( G <profile> ) ←
18:54:27 <AxelPolleres> owl:imports has no semantics in OWL Full, no discussion :-)
Scribe problem: the name 'owl' does not match any of the 63 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Ahmed Ezzat Alexandre Passant Andrea Westerinen Andrei Lopatenko Andy Seaborne Axel Polleres Bijan Parsia Birte Glimm Bryan Thompson Chimezie Ogbuji Cui Tao Daniel Schutzer Dave Beckett David Charboneau David Newman Davide Palmisano Dhanapalan Kulandai Vadivel Dirk Colaert Dirk-Willem van Gulik Edward Thomas Elias Torres Enrico Franconi Eric Prud'hommeaux Frank Careccia Fred Zemke Gregory Williams Hiroyuki Sato Ivan Mikhailov Ivan Herman Jacek Kopecký Jari Vänttinen Jean-François Baget Jeen Broekstra Jeff Pollock John Clark Jos De Roo Kendall Clark Kevin Wilkinson Lee Feigenbaum Luke Wilson-Mawer Matthew Perry Michael Smith Michele Minno Nophadol Jekjantuk Olivier Corby Orri Erling Paula Gearon Prateek Jain Rachel Yager Roland Schwaenzl Sandro Hawke Sergio Tessaris Simon Johnston Simon Schenk Souripriya Das Steve Harris Sven Groppe Timo Westkämper Tommi Koivula Yoshio Fukushige Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown owl: imports has no semantics in OWL Full, no discussion :-) [ Scribe Assist by Axel Polleres ] ←
19:02:32 <bglimm> bye
(No events recorded for 8 minutes)
Birte Glimm: bye ←
19:02:34 <AxelPolleres> just one last comment (personal opinion nochair)...
Axel Polleres: just one last comment (personal opinion nochair)... ←
19:02:34 <Zakim> - +1.216.773.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.216.773.aaaa ←
19:02:37 <Zakim> -bglimm
Zakim IRC Bot: -bglimm ←
19:02:38 <Zakim> -Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan ←
19:03:04 <bglimm> comments for IRC then...
Birte Glimm: comments for IRC then... ←
19:03:23 <AxelPolleres> ... I think we don't yet have agreement on whether we want the imports-profile in the in the rif-rdf:usingruleset triples or not, right?
Axel Polleres: ... I think we don't yet have agreement on whether we want the imports-profile in the in the rif-rdf:usingruleset triples or not, right? ←
19:03:52 <chimezie> i thought we agreed to set the profile to simple if importing RIF from RDF
Chimezie Ogbuji: i thought we agreed to set the profile to simple if importing RIF from RDF ←
19:04:04 <AxelPolleres> ... chime/ivan sounded rather against, me for it.
Axel Polleres: ... chime/ivan sounded rather against, me for it. ←
19:04:23 <bglimm> that is <importsProfile> sparql-rif:useRuleSet <ruleSet> versus <> sparql-rif:useRuleSet <ruleSet>?
Birte Glimm: that is <importsProfile> sparql-rif:useRuleSet <ruleSet> versus <> sparql-rif:useRuleSet <ruleSet>? ←
19:05:01 <chimezie> well, let my rationale is only that if we limit the profile that can be specified in the simplest case we don't inherit the responsibility of making sure all the other profiles can be used to meet the SPARQL entailment conditions
Chimezie Ogbuji: well, let my rationale is only that if we limit the profile that can be specified in the simplest case we don't inherit the responsibility of making sure all the other profiles can be used to meet the SPARQL entailment conditions ←
19:05:09 <AxelPolleres> I think I'd still prefer to be able to specify the imports profile.
Axel Polleres: I think I'd still prefer to be able to specify the imports profile. ←
19:05:38 <bglimm> Maybe it is a good start to first work everything out for what happens if it is simple and then go on to see what else needs to be done when it goes up to RDF and RDFS and eventually OWL
Birte Glimm: Maybe it is a good start to first work everything out for what happens if it is simple and then go on to see what else needs to be done when it goes up to RDF and RDFS and eventually OWL ←
19:06:58 <AxelPolleres> I still would suggest to remember "<> usingruleset R" vs "<profile> usingruleset R" as an issue in the doc.
Axel Polleres: I still would suggest to remember "<> usingruleset R" vs "<profile> usingruleset R" as an issue in the doc. ←
19:07:05 <bglimm> I think it would be nice if you can just combine it somehow, but starting with only simple seems ok to me
Birte Glimm: I think it would be nice if you can just combine it somehow, but starting with only simple seems ok to me ←
19:07:24 <bglimm> That's a good suggestion
Birte Glimm: That's a good suggestion ←
19:07:38 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, AxelPolleres, in Team_(sparql)17:52Z
Zakim IRC Bot: disconnecting the lone participant, AxelPolleres, in Team_(sparql)17:52Z ←
19:07:41 <Zakim> Team_(sparql)17:52Z has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: Team_(sparql)17:52Z has ended ←
19:07:42 <Zakim> Attendees were Ivan, bglimm, AxelPolleres, +1.216.773.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Ivan, bglimm, AxelPolleres, +1.216.773.aaaa ←
19:07:42 <AxelPolleres> while I agree that technically we should first proceed just seeing what "simple" implies
Axel Polleres: while I agree that technically we should first proceed just seeing what "simple" implies ←
19:07:57 <AxelPolleres> rrsagent, make minutes public
Axel Polleres: rrsagent, make minutes public ←
19:07:57 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', AxelPolleres. Try /msg RRSAgent help
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', AxelPolleres. Try /msg RRSAgent help ←
19:08:02 <chimezie> an editorial note talking about the possibility of interpreting the subject of that triple as specifying the profile?
Chimezie Ogbuji: an editorial note talking about the possibility of interpreting the subject of that triple as specifying the profile? ←
19:08:08 <AxelPolleres> rrsagent, make records public
Axel Polleres: rrsagent, make records public ←
19:08:27 <AxelPolleres> yeah.
Axel Polleres: yeah. ←
19:08:36 <AxelPolleres> that'd be fine for me.
Axel Polleres: that'd be fine for me. ←
19:08:36 <chimezie> ok, sounds good
Chimezie Ogbuji: ok, sounds good ←
19:08:40 <bglimm> Yes, either an editorial note or an issue, but probably an editorial note is good
Birte Glimm: Yes, either an editorial note or an issue, but probably an editorial note is good ←
19:13:28 <chimezie> i don't remember if we addressed how C2 rules out situations where sk(μ(x)) is neither in sk(SG) or in the vocabulary
Chimezie Ogbuji: i don't remember if we addressed how C2 rules out situations where sk(μ(x)) is neither in sk(SG) or in the vocabulary ←
19:14:55 <chimezie> oh well, enough RIF tinkering for the day
Chimezie Ogbuji: oh well, enough RIF tinkering for the day ←
19:22:14 <bglimm> Yes, I think that's still on the list for another time ;-)
(No events recorded for 7 minutes)
Birte Glimm: Yes, I think that's still on the list for another time ;-) ←
Formatted by CommonScribe