17:58:03 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #sparql
17:58:03 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/03/10-sparql-irc
17:58:10 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
17:58:10 <bglimm> Access Code: 772775
17:58:17 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
17:58:17 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
17:58:18 <Zakim> Team_(sparql)17:52Z has now started
17:58:20 <Zakim> +Ivan
17:58:32 <AxelPolleres> i need to dial via skype, hope that works...
17:58:55 <Zakim> +bglimm
17:58:58 <Zakim> -Ivan
17:58:59 <Zakim> +Ivan
17:59:03 <AxelPolleres> BTW: sent somt very late commments to chime's draft just now... sorry for not having more details yet.
17:59:36 <bglimm> I just saw them right now
18:00:32 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, code?
18:00:32 <Zakim> the conference code is 772775 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), AxelPolleres
18:01:04 <Zakim> +??P1
18:01:12 <AxelPolleres> Zakim, ??P1 is me
18:01:12 <Zakim> +AxelPolleres; got it
18:03:23 <Zakim> + +1.216.773.aaaa
18:05:07 <ivan> q+
18:06:25 <bglimm> q+
18:07:31 <bglimm> ack Ivan
18:07:40 <AxelPolleres> so.. we agree we speak about RIF-simple, fine.
18:08:38 <AxelPolleres> q+ to note that we have to be careful here!!!
18:08:55 <AxelPolleres> ... for the reason of rif:imports
18:09:27 <bglimm> rif:imports or sparql-rif:usesRuleSet
18:09:53 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/CR-rif-rdf-owl-20091001/#Appendix:_Embeddings_.28Informative.29
18:10:08 <bglimm> ack bglimm
18:10:30 <bglimm> I ack'ed me me because I wanted to say basically what Ivan explains
18:10:46 <AxelPolleres> The appendix has - implicitly - the rulesets which do RIF-RDF, RIF-RDFS
18:13:39 <bglimm> ack AxelPolleres
18:13:39 <Zakim> AxelPolleres, you wanted to note that we have to be careful here!!!
18:14:15 <AxelPolleres> we COULD just say that we don't treat higher profiles...
18:16:13 <AxelPolleres> <http://www.w3.org/2007/rif-import-profile#Simple> rif-rdf:usingRuleset
18:16:13 <AxelPolleres> <Ruleset> 
18:17:32 <AxelPolleres> the trick is, that this would be just the same as saying Imports (G <http://www.w3.org/2007/rif-import-profile#Simple>) in the Graph.
18:20:09 <AxelPolleres> Import( G profile )
18:22:37 <AxelPolleres> Chime argues that since the embeddings are "Informative" we can't take them "as is".
18:25:07 <AxelPolleres> example ....    the rule  { s p o } :- { [] rdf:_6 [] } will "imply" a different graph whether simple or RDF profile is used.
18:27:19 <chimezie> chimezie has joined #sparql
18:27:26 <chimezie> can you paste again?
18:27:34 <bglimm> Is it not { rdf:_6 [] [] } because the axiomatic triple is rdf:_6 rdf:type rdf:Property?
18:27:35 <AxelPolleres> example ....    the rule  { s p o } :- { [] rdf:_6 [] } will "imply" a different graph whether simple or RDF profile is used.
18:27:53 <AxelPolleres> ah, sorry, right birte...
18:28:06 <bglimm> Ok, I just thought I might be confused.
18:28:23 <AxelPolleres> I meant  { rdf:_6 a [] } 
18:28:30 <AxelPolleres> in the body.
18:28:38 <bglimm> ups, yeah no bnodes in pred position
18:28:57 <chimezie>  i don't think that rule is safe
18:29:15 <AxelPolleres> the rule is safe ... it is ground
18:29:35 <AxelPolleres> ah, sorry...
18:30:13 <AxelPolleres> ... not ground, but safe still ... actually you can't write it liket at. 
18:30:57 <AxelPolleres> {s p o } :- { rdf:_666 a ?x} would work 
18:31:39 <bglimm> (C1) The RDF triples sk(P(BGP)) are ground and RDF entailed by sk(SG).
18:31:39 <bglimm> (C2) For each variable x in V(BGP), sk(μ(x)) occurs in sk(SG) or in rdfV-Minus.
18:32:25 <AxelPolleres> I think/hope that we could use Birte's C1 C2 conditions analogously for the RIF-RDF and RIF-RDFS combinations ... more *hope* for the moment ;-)
18:32:28 <bglimm> rdf:_666
18:38:32 <AxelPolleres> btw, in the latest Editor's draft, the entailment profile URIs in RIF have been changed: e.g. <http://www.w3.org/ns/entailment/Simple>
18:39:40 <AxelPolleres> so, my above would be... <http://www.w3.org/ns/entailment/Simple>  rif-rdf:usingRuleset <Ruleset> .
18:42:49 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #sparql
18:43:23 <bglimm> Why talk about the rdfs:subClassOf editorial note because there is some extra note in RIF related to that
18:43:31 <bglimm> s/Why/We
18:44:45 <AxelPolleres>  x##Y
18:46:52 <AxelPolleres> Birte,Ivan: not really a problem for us, as long as we restrict to RIF Core.
18:47:04 <AxelPolleres> ... but still a pain.
18:48:03 <AxelPolleres> q+ can we get back just quickly to ## ?
18:52:09 <AxelPolleres> Imports( G <profile> )
18:54:27 <AxelPolleres> owl:imports has no semantics in OWL Full, no discussion :-)
19:02:32 <bglimm> bye
19:02:34 <AxelPolleres> just one last comment (personal opinion nochair)...
19:02:34 <Zakim> - +1.216.773.aaaa
19:02:37 <Zakim> -bglimm
19:02:38 <Zakim> -Ivan
19:03:04 <bglimm> comments for IRC then...
19:03:23 <AxelPolleres> ... I think we don't yet have agreement on whether we want the imports-profile in the in the  rif-rdf:usingruleset triples or not, right?
19:03:52 <chimezie> i thought we agreed to set the profile to simple if importing RIF from RDF 
19:04:04 <AxelPolleres> ...  chime/ivan sounded rather against, me for it.
19:04:23 <bglimm> that is <importsProfile> sparql-rif:useRuleSet <ruleSet> versus <> sparql-rif:useRuleSet <ruleSet>?
19:05:01 <chimezie> well, let my rationale is only that if we limit the profile that can be specified in the simplest case we don't inherit the responsibility of making sure all the other profiles can be used to meet the SPARQL entailment conditions
19:05:09 <AxelPolleres> I think I'd still  prefer to be able to specify the imports profile.
19:05:38 <bglimm> Maybe it is a good start to first work everything out for what happens if it is simple and then go on to see what else needs to be done when it goes up to RDF and RDFS and eventually OWL
19:05:45 <SteveH> SteveH has joined #sparql
19:06:58 <AxelPolleres> I still would suggest to remember "<> usingruleset R" vs "<profile> usingruleset R" as an issue in the doc.
19:07:05 <bglimm> I think it would be nice if you can just combine it somehow, but starting with only simple seems ok to me
19:07:24 <bglimm> That's a good suggestion
19:07:38 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, AxelPolleres, in Team_(sparql)17:52Z
19:07:41 <Zakim> Team_(sparql)17:52Z has ended
19:07:42 <Zakim> Attendees were Ivan, bglimm, AxelPolleres, +1.216.773.aaaa
19:07:42 <AxelPolleres> while I agree that technically we should first proceed just seeing what "simple" implies
19:07:57 <AxelPolleres> rrsagent, make minutes public
19:07:57 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', AxelPolleres.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
19:08:02 <chimezie> an editorial note talking about the possibility of interpreting the subject of that triple as specifying the profile?
19:08:08 <AxelPolleres> rrsagent, make records public
19:08:27 <AxelPolleres> yeah.
19:08:36 <AxelPolleres> that'd be fine for me.
19:08:36 <chimezie> ok, sounds good
19:08:40 <bglimm> Yes, either an editorial note or an issue, but probably an editorial note is good
19:13:28 <chimezie> i don't remember if we addressed how C2 rules out situations where sk(μ(x)) is neither in sk(SG) or in the vocabulary 
19:14:55 <chimezie> oh well, enough RIF tinkering for the day
19:16:04 <chimezie> chimezie has left #sparql
19:22:14 <bglimm> Yes, I think that's still on the list for another time ;-)
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