edit

SPARQL Working Group

Minutes of 17 March 2009

Present
Steve Harris, Luke Wilson-Mawer, John Clark, Andy Seaborne, Unknown EricP, Lee Feigenbaum, Simon Schenk, Ivan Herman, Souripriya Das, Simon Schenk, Unknown ywang4, Ivan Mikhailov, Chimezie Ogbuji, Orri Erling, David Newman, Kjetil Kjernsmo, Gregory Williams, Alexandre Passant
Scribe
John Clark
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions
  1. accept http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-03-10 link
Topics
  1. introductions

  2. administrivia

  3. Negation

    initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 10/4/-1

  4. Property Paths

    initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 11/3/3

  5. path lengths & path-matching variables

    initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 1/6/10

  6. Aggregates

    initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 16/1/0

  7. Update

    initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 13/2/2

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<LeeF> Present: SteveH, LukeWM, john-l, AndyS, EricP, LeeF, SimonS, IvanH, Souri, SSchenk1, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri, DaveNewman, kjetil, kasei, Alex

Scribe problem: the name 'EricP' does not match any of the 49 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alexandre Passant Andrei Lopatenko Andy Seaborne Axel Polleres Bijan Parsia Bryan Thompson Chimezie Ogbuji Cui Tao Daniel Schutzer Dave Beckett David Newman Davide Palmisano Dhanapalan Kulandai Vadivel Dirk Colaert Dirk-Willem van Gulik Edward Thomas Elias Torres Enrico Franconi Frank Careccia Fred Zemke Gregory Williams Hiroyuki Sato Ivan Mikhailov Ivan Herman Jacek Kopecký Janne Saarela Jari Vänttinen Jean-François Baget Jeen Broekstra Jeff Pollock John Clark Jos De Roo Kendall Clark Kevin Wilkinson Kjetil Kjernsmo Lee Feigenbaum Luke Wilson-Mawer Michael Smith Michele Minno Orri Erling Rachel Yager Roland Schwaenzl Sergio Tessaris Simon Schenk Souripriya Das Steve Harris Sven Groppe Timo Westkämper Yoshio Fukushige

Scribe problem: the name 'ywang4' does not match any of the 49 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alexandre Passant Andrei Lopatenko Andy Seaborne Axel Polleres Bijan Parsia Bryan Thompson Chimezie Ogbuji Cui Tao Daniel Schutzer Dave Beckett David Newman Davide Palmisano Dhanapalan Kulandai Vadivel Dirk Colaert Dirk-Willem van Gulik Edward Thomas Elias Torres Enrico Franconi Frank Careccia Fred Zemke Gregory Williams Hiroyuki Sato Ivan Mikhailov Ivan Herman Jacek Kopecký Janne Saarela Jari Vänttinen Jean-François Baget Jeen Broekstra Jeff Pollock John Clark Jos De Roo Kendall Clark Kevin Wilkinson Kjetil Kjernsmo Lee Feigenbaum Luke Wilson-Mawer Michael Smith Michele Minno Orri Erling Rachel Yager Roland Schwaenzl Sergio Tessaris Simon Schenk Souripriya Das Steve Harris Sven Groppe Timo Westkämper Yoshio Fukushige

13:30:43 <LeeF>  Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2009-03-17

Lee Feigenbaum: Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2009-03-17

13:31:27 <LeeF>  Regrets: Axel, Davide, Michele

Lee Feigenbaum: Regrets: Axel, Davide, Michele

13:31:42 <LeeF>  Chair: LeeF

Lee Feigenbaum: Chair: LeeF

13:32:01 <LeeF> Scribenick: john-l

(Scribe set to John Clark)

13:58:09 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started

(No events recorded for 26 minutes)

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started

13:58:16 <Zakim> +??P12

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P12

13:58:19 <AndyS> But is it standard H.323?

Andy Seaborne: But is it standard H.323?

13:58:27 <SteveH> Zakim, ??P12 is [Garlik]

Steve Harris: Zakim, ??P12 is [Garlik]

13:58:27 <Zakim> +[Garlik]; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +[Garlik]; got it

13:59:17 <Zakim> +john-l

Zakim IRC Bot: +john-l

13:59:20 <Zakim> +??P19

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P19

13:59:23 <AndyS> zakim, ??P19 is me

Andy Seaborne: zakim, ??P19 is me

13:59:27 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it

13:59:29 <Zakim> +Lee_Feigenbaum

Zakim IRC Bot: +Lee_Feigenbaum

13:59:58 <Zakim> +EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP

14:00:02 <LeeF> zakim, Lee_Feigenbaum is me

Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, Lee_Feigenbaum is me

14:00:02 <Zakim> +LeeF; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +LeeF; got it

14:00:10 <Zakim> + +0491768204aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +0491768204aaaa

14:00:33 <LeeF> zakim, mute ericP

Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, mute ericP

14:00:33 <Zakim> EricP should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: EricP should now be muted

14:00:50 <ericP> Zakim, unkute me

Unknown EricP: Zakim, unkute me

14:00:50 <Zakim> I don't understand 'unkute me', ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'unkute me', ericP

14:00:55 <SSchenk1> Zakim, 0491768204aaaa is me

Simon Schenk: Zakim, 0491768204aaaa is me

14:00:55 <Zakim> sorry, SSchenk1, I do not recognize a party named '0491768204aaaa'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, SSchenk1, I do not recognize a party named '0491768204aaaa'

14:00:57 <ericP> Zakim, unmute me

Unknown EricP: Zakim, unmute me

14:00:59 <Zakim> EricP should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: EricP should no longer be muted

14:01:01 <ivanh> zakim, dial ivan-voip

Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip

14:01:01 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made

14:01:09 <Zakim> +Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan

14:01:18 <john-l> Zakim, aaaa is SSchenk1

Zakim, aaaa is SSchenk1

14:01:20 <LeeF> zakim, aaaa is SSchenk1

Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, aaaa is SSchenk1

14:01:25 <Zakim> +Souri

Zakim IRC Bot: +Souri

14:01:31 <Zakim> +SSchenk1; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +SSchenk1; got it

14:01:35 <Zakim> sorry, LeeF, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, LeeF, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'

14:01:41 <Zakim> +ywang4

Zakim IRC Bot: +ywang4

14:01:42 <kjetil> I will be semi-present on IRC, may call in later

Kjetil Kjernsmo: I will be semi-present on IRC, may call in later

14:02:32 <LeeF> zakim, who's here?

Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, who's here?

14:02:33 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, EricP, SSchenk1, ivanh, Souri, ywang4

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, EricP, SSchenk1, ivanh, Souri, ywang4

14:02:34 <Zakim> On IRC I see Souri, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, SSchenk1, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivanh, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil, trackbot, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Souri, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, SSchenk1, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivanh, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil, trackbot, ericP

14:02:37 <john-l> Scribe: john-l
<LeeF> topic: introductions

1. introductions

14:04:37 <john-l> SSchenk1: I've done work on SPARQL federation, including recent work on the Billion Triple Challenge.

Simon Schenk: I've done work on SPARQL federation, including recent work on the Billion Triple Challenge.

14:04:38 <Zakim> +iv_an_ru

Zakim IRC Bot: +iv_an_ru

14:04:46 <john-l> ... Also see the recent introduction on the mailing list.

... Also see the recent introduction on the mailing list.

<LeeF> topic: administrivia

2. administrivia

14:05:30 <LeeF> -> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-03-10 minutes from last week

Lee Feigenbaum: -> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-03-10 minutes from last week

14:06:11 <john-l> LeeF: Note that the straw polls in the minutes are not binding in any way.

Lee Feigenbaum: Note that the straw polls in the minutes are not binding in any way.

14:06:15 <ericP> +1

Unknown EricP: +1

14:06:18 <ivanh> +1

Ivan Herman: +1

14:06:24 <LeeF> RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-03-10

RESOLVED: accept http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2009-03-10

14:06:36 <Zakim> +Chimezie_Ogbuji

Zakim IRC Bot: +Chimezie_Ogbuji

14:06:38 <Zakim> +??P51

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P51

14:06:47 <john-l> LeeF: Nothing from our liasons, correct?

Lee Feigenbaum: Nothing from our liasons, correct?

14:06:51 <LeeF> zakim, ??P51 is Orri

Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, ??P51 is Orri

14:06:51 <Zakim> +Orri; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Orri; got it

14:07:55 <ivanh> zakim, mute me

Ivan Herman: zakim, mute me

14:07:55 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: Ivan should now be muted

14:08:25 <LeeF> topic: Negation

3. Negation

Summary: initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 10/4/-1

<LeeF> summary: initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 10/4/-1
14:07:59 <john-l> LeeF: To review, we just want to get the basics of each feature out there, without too much discussion of syntax details in these meetings.

Lee Feigenbaum: To review, we just want to get the basics of each feature out there, without too much discussion of syntax details in these meetings.

14:08:14 <john-l> ... Discussion should focus on triage.

... Discussion should focus on triage.

14:08:24 <john-l> LeeF: First up, Negation.  Chime?

Lee Feigenbaum: First up, Negation. Chime?

14:08:28 <chimezie> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:Negation

Chimezie Ogbuji: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:Negation

14:08:54 <john-l> chimezie: This feature supports testing when a pattern does not match the active graph.

Chimezie Ogbuji: This feature supports testing when a pattern does not match the active graph.

14:09:12 <john-l> ... We currently do this with OPTIONAL and a bound test.

... We currently do this with OPTIONAL and a bound test.

14:09:16 <SteveH> q+ to talk about !ASK

Steve Harris: q+ to talk about !ASK

14:09:25 <ivanh> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

14:09:30 <john-l> ... But we want to be able to test directly whether a pattern is not matched.

... But we want to be able to test directly whether a pattern is not matched.

14:09:44 <ericP> +1 to intuitive

Unknown EricP: +1 to intuitive

14:09:48 <LeeF> q+ to note personal pros & cons

Lee Feigenbaum: q+ to note personal pros & cons

14:09:51 <john-l> ... It would be more intuitive as a first-class operator in the language.

... It would be more intuitive as a first-class operator in the language.

14:10:05 <john-l> ... Examples of different syntax are in the Wiki.

... Examples of different syntax are in the Wiki.

14:10:22 <ericP> i implemented unsaid in algae2

Unknown EricP: i implemented unsaid in algae2

14:10:32 <SteveH> q-   chimezie covered what I was going to talk about, I think

Steve Harris: q- chimezie covered what I was going to talk about, I think

14:10:36 <john-l> ... As to use cases, there are a lot of exclusion criteria in health care informatics queries.

... As to use cases, there are a lot of exclusion criteria in health care informatics queries.

14:10:41 <ericP> (had a different spelling, though, something like "notfound" iirc)

Unknown EricP: (had a different spelling, though, something like "notfound" iirc)

14:10:43 <LeeF> ack steveh

Lee Feigenbaum: ack steveh

14:10:43 <Zakim> SteveH, you wanted to talk about !ASK

Zakim IRC Bot: SteveH, you wanted to talk about !ASK

14:11:40 <iv_an_ru> UNSAID become a binary operator right?

Ivan Mikhailov: UNSAID become a binary operator right?

14:11:53 <iv_an_ru> {A} UNSAID {B}

Ivan Mikhailov: {A} UNSAID {B}

14:11:53 <john-l> LeeF: Are there other implementations of Negation out there?

Lee Feigenbaum: Are there other implementations of Negation out there?

14:12:04 <Souri> Some simplifications on what as parameter for UNSAID: OPTIONAL not needed, UNION not needed, ...

Souripriya Das: Some simplifications on what as parameter for UNSAID: OPTIONAL not needed, UNION not needed, ...

14:12:07 <ivanh> ack ivanh

Ivan Herman: ack ivanh

14:12:07 <AndyS> iv_an_ru: It didn't work like that

Ivan Mikhailov: It didn't work like that [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ]

14:12:10 <LeeF> q+ Orri

Lee Feigenbaum: q+ Orri

14:12:29 <ericP> q+ i do

Unknown EricP: q+ i do

14:12:32 <john-l> ivanh: Does anyone remember what was the main issue with this feature from the previous working group?

Ivan Herman: Does anyone remember what was the main issue with this feature from the previous working group?

14:12:33 <chimezie> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#unsaid

Chimezie Ogbuji: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#unsaid

14:12:34 <SteveH> IIRC it was not included because of negation as failure concerns

Steve Harris: IIRC it was not included because of negation as failure concerns

14:12:44 <AndyS> q+

Andy Seaborne: q+

14:12:56 <john-l> LeeF: There may have been an open world/closed world concern.

Lee Feigenbaum: There may have been an open world/closed world concern.

14:13:01 <LeeF> ack AndyS

Lee Feigenbaum: ack AndyS

14:13:09 <ericP> q- i

Unknown EricP: q- i

14:13:11 <ericP> q- do

Unknown EricP: q- do

14:13:13 <LeeF> q- i

Lee Feigenbaum: q- i

14:13:18 <LeeF> q- do

Lee Feigenbaum: q- do

14:13:19 <john-l> AndyS: We were discussing this before the algebra was introduced, when the issues surrounding failure were more complex.

Andy Seaborne: We were discussing this before the algebra was introduced, when the issues surrounding failure were more complex.

14:13:28 <chimezie> Zakim, who is here?

Chimezie Ogbuji: Zakim, who is here?

14:13:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, EricP, SSchenk1, ivanh, Souri, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, EricP, SSchenk1, ivanh, Souri, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri

14:13:31 <Zakim> On IRC I see chimezie, Souri, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, SimonS, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivanh, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil, trackbot, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see chimezie, Souri, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, SimonS, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivanh, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil, trackbot, ericP

14:14:04 <ivanh> ack LeeF

Ivan Herman: ack LeeF

14:14:04 <Zakim> LeeF, you wanted to note personal pros & cons

Zakim IRC Bot: LeeF, you wanted to note personal pros & cons

14:14:22 <Zakim> +DaveNewman

Zakim IRC Bot: +DaveNewman

14:14:26 <john-l> LeeF: Inevitably, when teaching SPARQL, someone asks for some form of negation.

Lee Feigenbaum: Inevitably, when teaching SPARQL, someone asks for some form of negation.

14:14:50 <AndyS> Another use case: data validation

Andy Seaborne: Another use case: data validation

14:14:54 <LeeF> ack Orri

Lee Feigenbaum: ack Orri

14:14:55 <john-l> ... Still, we want to keep the scope of our work small, if possible.

... Still, we want to keep the scope of our work small, if possible.

14:15:00 <ericP> q+ to say subselect route is less easy to teach

Unknown EricP: q+ to say subselect route is less easy to teach

14:15:28 <LeeF> ericP, but (much?) easier than OPTIONAL+!bound

Lee Feigenbaum: ericP, but (much?) easier than OPTIONAL+!bound

14:15:30 <john-l> Souri: There are good social web use cases, such as asking about knowing or not knowing certain people.

Orri Erling: There are good social web use cases, such as asking about knowing or not knowing certain people.

14:15:37 <LeeF> s/Souri/Orri
14:15:45 <SteveH> ericP, that's a matter of opinion, I think

Steve Harris: ericP, that's a matter of opinion, I think

14:16:08 <Souri> q+

Souripriya Das: q+

14:16:13 <john-l> ... This has a good mapping to similar SQL concepts.

... This has a good mapping to similar SQL concepts.

14:16:16 <ericP> SteveH, i think it's pretty defendable if you take the average joe on the street

Unknown EricP: SteveH, i think it's pretty defendable if you take the average joe on the street

14:16:29 <kjetil> Zakim, what is the code?

Kjetil Kjernsmo: Zakim, what is the code?

14:16:29 <Zakim> the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), kjetil

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 77277 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), kjetil

14:16:32 <SteveH> ericP, the average joe SPARQL user?

Steve Harris: ericP, the average joe SPARQL user?

14:16:38 <ericP> there is none

Unknown EricP: there is none

14:16:53 <ericP> q-

Unknown EricP: q-

14:16:53 <Souri> One of us (Orri and Souri) should change our names!

Souripriya Das: One of us (Orri and Souri) should change our names!

14:16:54 <Zakim> + +2

Zakim IRC Bot: + +2

14:17:06 <kjetil> Zakim, mute me

Kjetil Kjernsmo: Zakim, mute me

14:17:06 <Zakim> sorry, kjetil, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, kjetil, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you

14:17:24 <LeeF> zakim, +2 is kjetil

Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, +2 is kjetil

14:17:24 <Zakim> +kjetil; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +kjetil; got it

14:17:24 <kjetil> Zakim, +2 is me

Kjetil Kjernsmo: Zakim, +2 is me

14:17:25 <Zakim> sorry, kjetil, I do not recognize a party named '+2'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, kjetil, I do not recognize a party named '+2'

14:17:26 <kjetil> Zakim, mute me

Kjetil Kjernsmo: Zakim, mute me

14:17:26 <Zakim> kjetil should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: kjetil should now be muted

14:17:30 <LeeF> q?

Lee Feigenbaum: q?

14:17:38 <LeeF> ack Souri

Lee Feigenbaum: ack Souri

14:18:18 <john-l> Souri: I approve this feature.  We should focus on keeping this simple, wherever possible.

Souripriya Das: I approve this feature. We should focus on keeping this simple, wherever possible.

14:18:57 <john-l> LeeF: Time for a straw poll on negation!

Lee Feigenbaum: Time for a straw poll on negation!

14:19:14 <Souri> +1

Souripriya Das: +1

14:19:15 <john-l> +1

+1

14:19:16 <SteveH> +1 if a part of subSELECT, -1 otherwise

Steve Harris: +1 if a part of subSELECT, -1 otherwise

14:19:16 <kjetil> +0

Kjetil Kjernsmo: +0

14:19:17 <LukeWM> 0

Luke Wilson-Mawer: 0

14:19:26 <chimezie> +1

Chimezie Ogbuji: +1

14:19:26 <LeeF> zakim, who's here?

Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, who's here?

14:19:26 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, EricP, SSchenk1, ivanh, Souri, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri, DaveNewman, kjetil (muted)

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, EricP, SSchenk1, ivanh, Souri, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri, DaveNewman, kjetil (muted)

14:19:29 <Zakim> On IRC I see dnewman2, chimezie, Souri, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, SimonS, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivanh, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see dnewman2, chimezie, Souri, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, SimonS, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivanh, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil,

14:19:31 <Zakim> ... trackbot, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: ... trackbot, ericP

14:19:36 <ivanh> +1

Ivan Herman: +1

14:19:37 <AndyS> +1

Andy Seaborne: +1

14:19:39 <ericP> 0

Unknown EricP: 0

14:19:40 <dnewman2> +1

David Newman: +1

14:19:44 <SimonS> +1

Simon Schenk: +1

14:19:46 <iv_an_ru> 0 if a part of subSELECT, -1 otherwise

Ivan Mikhailov: 0 if a part of subSELECT, -1 otherwise

14:19:52 <ywang4> +1

Unknown ywang4: +1

14:20:05 <LeeF> Orri: +1

Orri Erling: +1 [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:20:16 <LeeF> LeeF: 0

Lee Feigenbaum: 0 [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:20:43 <LeeF> topic: Property Paths

4. Property Paths

Summary: initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 11/3/3

<LeeF> summary: initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 11/3/3
14:20:47 <john-l> LeeF: Now it's Andy's turn to talk about Property Paths.

Lee Feigenbaum: Now it's Andy's turn to talk about Property Paths.

14:20:49 <AndyS> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:PropertyPaths#Implementation_Experience_in_ARQ

Andy Seaborne: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:PropertyPaths#Implementation_Experience_in_ARQ

14:21:28 <john-l> AndyS: A property path is a substitute for a property, and has a few additional operators.

Andy Seaborne: A property path is a substitute for a property, and has a few additional operators.

14:21:45 <john-l> ... There are simple ones which are syntactic sugar, and more powerful cases.

... There are simple ones which are syntactic sugar, and more powerful cases.

14:22:51 <john-l> ... This does not introduce a new datatype.

... This does not introduce a new datatype.

14:22:58 <john-l> ... It provides a set of results.

... It provides a set of results.

14:23:10 <SteveH> q+

Steve Harris: q+

14:23:14 <john-l> ... It indicates whether a path exists, not what that path is.

... It indicates whether a path exists, not what that path is.

14:23:45 <LeeF> -> http://esw.w3.org/topic/SPARQL/Extensions/Paths has a bit more info

Lee Feigenbaum: -> http://esw.w3.org/topic/SPARQL/Extensions/Paths has a bit more info

14:23:55 <chimezie> +q about how much of support for transitivity can be said to be covered by entailment

Chimezie Ogbuji: +q about how much of support for transitivity can be said to be covered by entailment

14:24:04 <chimezie> +q

Chimezie Ogbuji: +q

14:24:17 <john-l> Orri: We allow paths in any expression location, but this is primarily a syntactic difference.

Orri Erling: We allow paths in any expression location, but this is primarily a syntactic difference.

14:24:32 <Zakim> + +1.310.729.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.310.729.aacc

14:24:36 <kasei> Zakim aacc  is me

Gregory Williams: Zakim aacc is me

14:24:54 <LeeF> zakim, aacc is kasei

Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, aacc is kasei

14:24:54 <Zakim> +kasei; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +kasei; got it

14:25:00 <kasei> Zakim mute me

Gregory Williams: Zakim mute me

14:25:03 <john-l> SteveH: Can you say more about the cardinality of the result set?

Steve Harris: Can you say more about the cardinality of the result set?

14:25:26 <john-l> AndyS: ... describes how the variable binding works.

Andy Seaborne: ... describes how the variable binding works.

14:25:46 <kasei> Zakim, mute me

Gregory Williams: Zakim, mute me

14:25:46 <Zakim> kasei should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: kasei should now be muted

14:25:51 <kasei> thanks Lee

Gregory Williams: thanks Lee

14:26:29 <LeeF> q?

Lee Feigenbaum: q?

14:26:29 <iv_an_ru> I'll vote for PropertyPath syntax for a simple reason: it's easier to implement it once in addition to exixting Virtuoso's transitive subqueries than to explain to beginners how to write that subqueries.

Ivan Mikhailov: I'll vote for PropertyPath syntax for a simple reason: it's easier to implement it once in addition to exixting Virtuoso's transitive subqueries than to explain to beginners how to write that subqueries.

14:26:34 <LeeF> ack SteveH

Lee Feigenbaum: ack SteveH

14:26:34 <ivanh> ack SteveH

Ivan Herman: ack SteveH

14:26:42 <LeeF> ack chimezie

Lee Feigenbaum: ack chimezie

14:26:48 <dnewman2> q+

David Newman: q+

14:27:17 <john-l> chimezie: What do implementers think about the relationship between property paths and entailment?

Chimezie Ogbuji: What do implementers think about the relationship between property paths and entailment?

14:27:41 <john-l> AndyS: The driving use case is when you want to apply path walking to data when you don't have an inference mechanism.

Andy Seaborne: The driving use case is when you want to apply path walking to data when you don't have an inference mechanism.

14:28:10 <LeeF> ack dnewman2

Lee Feigenbaum: ack dnewman2

14:28:12 <john-l> ... It can also provide direct answers for certain inference questions.

... It can also provide direct answers for certain inference questions.

14:28:53 <john-l> dnewman2: What do you think about an extension to this for ordering the results in a transitive sequence?

David Newman: What do you think about an extension to this for ordering the results in a transitive sequence?

14:29:02 <Zakim> + +2

Zakim IRC Bot: + +2

14:29:04 <iv_an_ru> For me, any same-as, inference etc are invisible minor details of path traversal. Say, same-as nodes should not even appear in the resulting path.

Ivan Mikhailov: For me, any same-as, inference etc are invisible minor details of path traversal. Say, same-as nodes should not even appear in the resulting path.

14:29:22 <LeeF> zakim, +2 is AlexPassant

Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, +2 is AlexPassant

14:29:22 <Zakim> +AlexPassant; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AlexPassant; got it

14:30:00 <john-l> ... The use case I have in mind is doing traceability analysis.

... The use case I have in mind is doing traceability analysis.

14:30:31 <john-l> ... (A, R, B), (B, R, C), (C, R, D), and I'd like to get back A, B, C, D.

... (A, R, B), (B, R, C), (C, R, D), and I'd like to get back A, B, C, D.

14:30:53 <john-l> AndyS: A reasoner would help you out there.

Andy Seaborne: A reasoner would help you out there.

14:31:07 <john-l> dnewman2: But I won't get the results in path order.

David Newman: But I won't get the results in path order.

14:32:23 <john-l> LeeF: Use the mailing list!

Lee Feigenbaum: Use the mailing list!

14:32:40 <john-l> Orri: I've answered this on the mailing list.

Orri Erling: I've answered this on the mailing list.

14:33:51 <john-l> LeeF: This is not about matching the path itself, but rather providing a feature for traversing a path when querying (that is, indicating whether such a path exists).

Lee Feigenbaum: This is not about matching the path itself, but rather providing a feature for traversing a path when querying (that is, indicating whether such a path exists).

14:33:55 <LeeF> q?

Lee Feigenbaum: q?

14:33:58 <LeeF> ack dnewman2

Lee Feigenbaum: ack dnewman2

14:34:00 <AlexPassant> q+ for path and owl:transitivity + ordering

Alexandre Passant: q+ for path and owl:transitivity + ordering

14:34:02 <LeeF> ack dnewman

Lee Feigenbaum: ack dnewman

14:34:10 <LeeF> ack AlexPassant

Lee Feigenbaum: ack AlexPassant

14:34:10 <Zakim> AlexPassant, you wanted to discuss path and owl:transitivity + ordering

Zakim IRC Bot: AlexPassant, you wanted to discuss path and owl:transitivity + ordering

14:34:16 <dnewman2> q-

David Newman: q-

14:35:03 <john-l> AlexPassant: How can we maintain ordering when using inference?

Alexandre Passant: How can we maintain ordering when using inference?

14:35:11 <john-l> LeeF: Use the mailing list!

Lee Feigenbaum: Use the mailing list!

14:35:38 <LeeF> zakim, who's here?

Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, who's here?

14:35:38 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, EricP, SSchenk1, ivanh, Souri, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri, DaveNewman, kjetil (muted), kasei (muted), AlexPassant

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, EricP, SSchenk1, ivanh, Souri, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri, DaveNewman, kjetil (muted), kasei (muted), AlexPassant

14:35:40 <ivanh> -1 I feel the proper specification for this feature would be too much for this charter...

Ivan Herman: -1 I feel the proper specification for this feature would be too much for this charter...

14:35:40 <SteveH> -1

Steve Harris: -1

14:35:41 <Zakim> On IRC I see Souri, kasei, dnewman2, chimezie, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, SimonS, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivanh, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Souri, kasei, dnewman2, chimezie, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, SimonS, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivanh, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil,

14:35:42 <john-l> LeeF: Time for a straw poll about property paths.

Lee Feigenbaum: Time for a straw poll about property paths.

14:35:42 <dnewman2> +1

David Newman: +1

14:35:43 <Zakim> ... trackbot, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: ... trackbot, ericP

14:35:45 <john-l> -0

-0

14:35:47 <kjetil> +1

Kjetil Kjernsmo: +1

14:35:48 <AlexPassant> +1

Alexandre Passant: +1

14:35:50 <kasei> +1

Gregory Williams: +1

14:35:50 <chimezie> 0

Chimezie Ogbuji: 0

14:35:58 <LukeWM> +1

Luke Wilson-Mawer: +1

14:36:06 <SimonS> +1

Simon Schenk: +1

14:36:07 <AndyS> +1

Andy Seaborne: +1

14:36:07 <iv_an_ru> +1

Ivan Mikhailov: +1

14:36:13 <ericP> -1

Unknown EricP: -1

14:36:20 <Souri> +1 but in simple form only

Souripriya Das: +1 but in simple form only

14:36:26 <LeeF> Orri: +1

Orri Erling: +1 [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:36:34 <ywang4> +1

Unknown ywang4: +1

14:36:45 <ericP> what about ±0 ?

Unknown EricP: what about ±0 ?

14:36:53 <LeeF> LeeF: 0

Lee Feigenbaum: 0 [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:37:02 <Souri> What I mean by "simple" is no ordering etc.

Souripriya Das: What I mean by "simple" is no ordering etc.

<LeeF> topic: path lengths & path-matching variables

5. path lengths & path-matching variables

Summary: initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 1/6/10

<LeeF> summary: initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 1/6/10
14:37:27 <john-l> LeeF: Next up, path lengths.

Lee Feigenbaum: Next up, path lengths.

14:37:27 <SteveH> URI?

Steve Harris: URI?

14:37:40 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:PathLength

Lee Feigenbaum: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:PathLength

14:37:43 <iv_an_ru> Souri, I guess that ordering is a separate issue, '*' is The issue :)

Ivan Mikhailov: Souri, I guess that ordering is a separate issue, '*' is The issue :)

14:38:34 <john-l> AlexPassant: Want to be able to specify how many properties separate two resources.

Alexandre Passant: Want to be able to specify how many properties separate two resources.

14:38:55 <john-l> ... Use cases include finding all people who are a certain number of relationships away from others.

... Use cases include finding all people who are a certain number of relationships away from others.

14:39:08 <AlexPassant> http://www-sop.inria.fr/edelweiss/software/corese/v2_4_1/manual/next.php

Alexandre Passant: http://www-sop.inria.fr/edelweiss/software/corese/v2_4_1/manual/next.php

14:39:09 <john-l> ... Implementation links should be on the Wiki.

... Implementation links should be on the Wiki.

14:39:27 <john-l> LeeF: Any other implementations?

Lee Feigenbaum: Any other implementations?

14:39:49 <john-l> ???: These features could be subsumed by transitive subquery.

Orri Erling: These features could be subsumed by transitive subquery.

14:39:54 <john-l> s/???/Orri/
14:39:55 <LeeF> q?

Lee Feigenbaum: q?

14:39:59 <iv_an_ru> s/???/Orri
14:40:50 <LeeF> The way I see it from the wiki page, this is about binding paths to the variables, followed by calculating the length of that matched path

Lee Feigenbaum: The way I see it from the wiki page, this is about binding paths to the variables, followed by calculating the length of that matched path

14:41:04 <Souri> q+

Souripriya Das: q+

14:41:16 <LeeF> ack Souri

Lee Feigenbaum: ack Souri

14:41:17 <iv_an_ru> I don't like an extra datatype that can not be even serialized for debugging

Ivan Mikhailov: I don't like an extra datatype that can not be even serialized for debugging

14:42:18 <AlexPassant> fyi, syntax used in the related wiki page is the Corese one, but I don't have a strong opinion on which syntax must be used for that feature

Alexandre Passant: fyi, syntax used in the related wiki page is the Corese one, but I don't have a strong opinion on which syntax must be used for that feature

14:42:18 <john-l> Souri: There could be multiple paths between nodes, and the issue is complicated by inference, which adds triples.

Souripriya Das: There could be multiple paths between nodes, and the issue is complicated by inference, which adds triples.

14:42:44 <chimezie> We need to be careful about the fine line between incremental path-based traversal and more general (and more complex) graph-theoretic operators, such as path lenths, shortest paths, transitive closures, etc..

Chimezie Ogbuji: We need to be careful about the fine line between incremental path-based traversal and more general (and more complex) graph-theoretic operators, such as path lenths, shortest paths, transitive closures, etc..

14:42:49 <SteveH> it introduces binding ?vars

Steve Harris: it introduces binding ?vars

14:42:53 <SteveH> in FILTERs

Steve Harris: in FILTERs

14:43:03 <ericP> i think it's expensive, but that it be well-defined over anything with a (virtual) graph representation

Unknown EricP: i think it's expensive, but that it be well-defined over anything with a (virtual) graph representation

14:43:22 <AndyS> SteveH - where abouts?

Andy Seaborne: SteveH - where abouts?

14:43:26 <LeeF> q?

Lee Feigenbaum: q?

14:43:50 <LeeF> zakim, who's here?

Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, who's here?

14:43:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, EricP, SSchenk1, ivanh, Souri, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri, DaveNewman, kjetil (muted), kasei (muted), AlexPassant

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, EricP, SSchenk1, ivanh, Souri, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri, DaveNewman, kjetil (muted), kasei (muted), AlexPassant

14:43:51 <SteveH> AndyS, ah, no, I misread

Steve Harris: AndyS, ah, no, I misread

14:43:54 <Zakim> On IRC I see Souri, kasei, dnewman2, chimezie, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, SimonS, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivanh, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Souri, kasei, dnewman2, chimezie, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, SimonS, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivanh, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil,

14:43:54 <john-l> LeeF: Time for a straw poll!

Lee Feigenbaum: Time for a straw poll!

14:43:54 <SteveH> -1

Steve Harris: -1

14:43:55 <chimezie> -1

Chimezie Ogbuji: -1

14:43:55 <ericP> -1 (sorry, just want a small and reallistic scope)

Unknown EricP: -1 (sorry, just want a small and reallistic scope)

14:43:55 <ivanh> -1

Ivan Herman: -1

14:43:56 <Zakim> ... trackbot, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: ... trackbot, ericP

14:43:56 <LukeWM> -1

Luke Wilson-Mawer: -1

14:43:56 <Souri> -1

Souripriya Das: -1

14:43:57 <john-l> -0

-0

14:43:57 <kasei> -1

Gregory Williams: -1

14:43:57 <AndyS> -1 to introducing a new datatype

Andy Seaborne: -1 to introducing a new datatype

14:43:57 <AlexPassant> +1

Alexandre Passant: +1

14:44:00 <dnewman2> ericP: 0

Unknown EricP: 0 [ Scribe Assist by David Newman ]

14:44:01 <iv_an_ru> -1

Ivan Mikhailov: -1

14:44:02 <kjetil> 0 if propertypaths is done, +1 otherwise

Kjetil Kjernsmo: 0 if propertypaths is done, +1 otherwise

14:44:02 <SimonS> 0

Simon Schenk: 0

14:44:18 <LeeF> -1

Lee Feigenbaum: -1

14:44:37 <LeeF> Orri: 0 (very useful but may be difficult to get consensus)

Orri Erling: 0 (very useful but may be difficult to get consensus) [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:44:49 <ywang4> 0

Unknown ywang4: 0

14:45:01 <ywang4> sorry the line was not clear enough..

Unknown ywang4: sorry the line was not clear enough..

14:45:35 <LeeF> topic: Aggregates

6. Aggregates

Summary: initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 16/1/0

<LeeF> summary: initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 16/1/0
14:45:37 <LeeF> http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:AggregateFunctions

Lee Feigenbaum: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Feature:AggregateFunctions

14:45:37 <john-l> LeeF: Next up: aggregates.

Lee Feigenbaum: Next up: aggregates.

14:46:02 <john-l> ... Take a whole bunch of bindings and group them together.  This is common in SQL.

... Take a whole bunch of bindings and group them together. This is common in SQL.

14:46:11 <john-l> ... Either one big group or subgroups.

... Either one big group or subgroups.

14:46:56 <Souri> +1 :-) I had proposed COUNT in SPARQL 1

Souripriya Das: +1 :-) I had proposed COUNT in SPARQL 1

14:47:10 <john-l> ... This is a very common request when explaining SPARQL.

... This is a very common request when explaining SPARQL.

14:47:30 <john-l> ... Several implementations listed on the Wiki.

... Several implementations listed on the Wiki.

14:47:43 <john-l> ... Postponed by SPARQL 2008 due to lack of implementation experience.

... Postponed by SPARQL 2008 due to lack of implementation experience.

14:48:39 <john-l> SteveH: Answering aggregate questions is hard for a couple other reasons, such as dealing with OWL and *what* is being counted.

Steve Harris: Answering aggregate questions is hard for a couple other reasons, such as dealing with OWL and *what* is being counted.

14:49:04 <ericP> emphatically, we are a graph language

Unknown EricP: emphatically, we are a graph language

14:49:08 <john-l> LeeF: Do we collapse counts for owl:sameAs?

Lee Feigenbaum: Do we collapse counts for owl:sameAs?

14:49:13 <LeeF> q?

Lee Feigenbaum: q?

14:49:16 <iv_an_ru> IMHO, aggregates are unavoidable, the only question is how the end-point should describe user-defined aggregates in its capabilities ;)

Ivan Mikhailov: IMHO, aggregates are unavoidable, the only question is how the end-point should describe user-defined aggregates in its capabilities ;)

14:49:33 <Souri> +q

Souripriya Das: +q

14:49:44 <john-l> Orri: Aggregates are a must-have.

Orri Erling: Aggregates are a must-have.

14:50:03 <kasei> +q to ask about numeric types and agregates

Gregory Williams: +q to ask about numeric types and agregates

14:50:18 <john-l> ... We have a partial implementation that deals with owl:sameAs.

... We have a partial implementation that deals with owl:sameAs.

14:50:19 <LeeF> ack Souri

Lee Feigenbaum: ack Souri

14:50:48 <chimezie> +q to ask if aggregate champions envision extending SELECT expressions only with aggregate functions or more general expressions

Chimezie Ogbuji: +q to ask if aggregate champions envision extending SELECT expressions only with aggregate functions or more general expressions

14:50:50 <kasei> Zakim, unmute me

Gregory Williams: Zakim, unmute me

14:50:55 <Zakim> kasei should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: kasei should no longer be muted

14:50:56 <LeeF> ack kasei

Lee Feigenbaum: ack kasei

14:50:57 <iv_an_ru> There's need in handwritten group by in some cases, but not so often.

Ivan Mikhailov: There's need in handwritten group by in some cases, but not so often.

14:50:59 <Zakim> kasei, you wanted to ask about numeric types and agregates

Zakim IRC Bot: kasei, you wanted to ask about numeric types and agregates

14:51:22 <AndyS> q+ to reply to Greg

Andy Seaborne: q+ to reply to Greg

14:51:31 <Souri> How about HAVING to go with GROUP BY?

Souripriya Das: How about HAVING to go with GROUP BY?

14:51:34 <john-l> kasei: How do you deal with datatype mismatch?

Gregory Williams: How do you deal with datatype mismatch?

14:51:52 <LeeF> ack AndyS

Lee Feigenbaum: ack AndyS

14:51:52 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to reply to Greg

Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS, you wanted to reply to Greg

14:52:02 <john-l> Several implementators indicate that they skip non-numbers.

Several implementators indicate that they skip non-numbers.

14:52:30 <kasei> Zakim, mute me

Gregory Williams: Zakim, mute me

14:52:30 <Zakim> kasei should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: kasei should now be muted

14:52:35 <LeeF> ack chimezie

Lee Feigenbaum: ack chimezie

14:52:35 <Zakim> chimezie, you wanted to ask if aggregate champions envision extending SELECT expressions only with aggregate functions or more general expressions

Zakim IRC Bot: chimezie, you wanted to ask if aggregate champions envision extending SELECT expressions only with aggregate functions or more general expressions

14:52:45 <iv_an_ru> more general

Ivan Mikhailov: more general

14:52:46 <SteveH> max(xsd:decimal(?x)) is possible

Steve Harris: max(xsd:decimal(?x)) is possible

14:53:38 <john-l> LeeF: Aggregate expressions should go with more general scalar expressions.

Lee Feigenbaum: Aggregate expressions should go with more general scalar expressions.

14:53:43 <LeeF> q?

Lee Feigenbaum: q?

14:54:15 <john-l> LeeF: Any substantial concerns about aggregates?

Lee Feigenbaum: Any substantial concerns about aggregates?

14:54:39 <SteveH> it has a strong relation to subSELECTs in the SQL world

Steve Harris: it has a strong relation to subSELECTs in the SQL world

14:54:41 <john-l> chimezie: We just need to walk carefully around the open world basis.

Chimezie Ogbuji: We just need to walk carefully around the open world basis.

14:54:50 <SteveH> and things like CONCAT() coupld be complex in SPARQL

Steve Harris: and things like CONCAT() coupld be complex in SPARQL

14:55:04 <LeeF> zakim, who's here?

Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, who's here?

14:55:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, EricP, SSchenk1, ivanh, Souri, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri, DaveNewman, kjetil (muted), kasei (muted), AlexPassant

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, EricP, SSchenk1, ivanh, Souri, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri, DaveNewman, kjetil (muted), kasei (muted), AlexPassant

14:55:04 <kasei> +1

Gregory Williams: +1

14:55:06 <chimezie> +1

Chimezie Ogbuji: +1

14:55:07 <ericP> 0

Unknown EricP: 0

14:55:07 <LukeWM> +1

Luke Wilson-Mawer: +1

14:55:07 <Zakim> On IRC I see Souri, kasei, dnewman2, chimezie, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, SimonS, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivanh, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Souri, kasei, dnewman2, chimezie, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, SimonS, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivanh, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil,

14:55:08 <SteveH> +1

Steve Harris: +1

14:55:08 <AndyS> +1

Andy Seaborne: +1

14:55:08 <john-l> LeeF: Straw poll time!

Lee Feigenbaum: Straw poll time!

14:55:09 <ywang4> +1

Unknown ywang4: +1

14:55:09 <iv_an_ru> +1

Ivan Mikhailov: +1

14:55:09 <ivanh> +1 with the mild worry about the owl related issues

Ivan Herman: +1 with the mild worry about the owl related issues

14:55:09 <Zakim> ... trackbot, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: ... trackbot, ericP

14:55:09 <kjetil> +1

Kjetil Kjernsmo: +1

14:55:10 <dnewman2> +1

David Newman: +1

14:55:12 <john-l> +1

+1

14:55:15 <SimonS> +1 think this is essential

Simon Schenk: +1 think this is essential

14:55:15 <LeeF> +1

Lee Feigenbaum: +1

14:55:18 <Souri> +1

Souripriya Das: +1

14:55:20 <AlexPassant> +1

Alexandre Passant: +1

14:55:24 <LeeF> Orri: +1

Orri Erling: +1 [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

14:55:48 <iv_an_ru> I'd cheat and place one more +1

Ivan Mikhailov: I'd cheat and place one more +1

<LeeF> topic: Update

7. Update

Summary: initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 13/2/2

<LeeF> summary: initial straw poll gives (+/0/-): 13/2/2
14:56:28 <john-l> LeeF: Talk about UPDATE?

Lee Feigenbaum: Talk about UPDATE?

14:56:28 <iv_an_ru> +1 for update

Ivan Mikhailov: +1 for update

14:56:28 <SteveH> q+

Steve Harris: q+

14:56:32 <ywang4> +1

Unknown ywang4: +1

14:56:47 <ivanh> ack SteveH

Ivan Herman: ack SteveH

14:56:48 <LeeF> ack SteveH

Lee Feigenbaum: ack SteveH

14:56:57 <ericP> what's wrong with yesterda?

Unknown EricP: what's wrong with yesterda?

14:57:00 <ericP> y

Unknown EricP: y

14:57:03 <john-l> SteveH: We want this... tomorrow.

Steve Harris: We want this... tomorrow.

14:57:21 <ywang4> update is essential anyway

Unknown ywang4: update is essential anyway

14:57:30 <SteveH> but, I do /not/ want UPDATE in SPARQL, in some other langauge (forgot to say that)

Steve Harris: but, I do /not/ want UPDATE in SPARQL, in some other langauge (forgot to say that)

14:57:43 <john-l> LeeF: A separate SPARQL update language is implemented in a number of implementations.

Lee Feigenbaum: A separate SPARQL update language is implemented in a number of implementations.

14:57:50 <AndyS> +1 to separate

Andy Seaborne: +1 to separate

14:57:53 <john-l> ... There exists a draft specification for this.

... There exists a draft specification for this.

14:57:57 <SteveH> we have UPDATE feature, with a syntax that I wont defend

Steve Harris: we have UPDATE feature, with a syntax that I wont defend

14:57:59 <AndyS> http://www.w3.org/Submission/2008/SUBM-SPARQL-Update-20080715/

Andy Seaborne: http://www.w3.org/Submission/2008/SUBM-SPARQL-Update-20080715/

14:58:14 <john-l> ... This can exist in a separate recommendation.

... This can exist in a separate recommendation.

14:58:48 <ivanh> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

14:58:53 <LeeF> ack ivanh

Lee Feigenbaum: ack ivanh

14:59:05 <SteveH> q+ to answer

Steve Harris: q+ to answer

14:59:09 <john-l> ivanh: Would this be a separate recommendation?

Ivan Herman: Would this be a separate recommendation?

14:59:27 <kjetil> q+

Kjetil Kjernsmo: q+

14:59:31 <john-l> SteveH: I want to see it as a separate *language*.

Steve Harris: I want to see it as a separate *language*.

14:59:43 <iv_an_ru> It may be enough to warn that some keywords are "reserved" from update language.

Ivan Mikhailov: It may be enough to warn that some keywords are "reserved" from update language.

15:00:06 <john-l> ... We need to consider security and other issues which really indicate that it should be a separate language.

... We need to consider security and other issues which really indicate that it should be a separate language.

15:00:31 <chimezie> +q

Chimezie Ogbuji: +q

15:00:38 <AndyS> (that was Andy - sorry)

Andy Seaborne: (that was Andy - sorry)

15:00:39 <LeeF> ack SteveH

Lee Feigenbaum: ack SteveH

15:00:39 <Zakim> SteveH, you wanted to answer

Zakim IRC Bot: SteveH, you wanted to answer

15:00:40 <john-l> ... If you only support query, then you should be said to support SPARQL.

... If you only support query, then you should be said to support SPARQL.

15:01:01 <LeeF> ack kjetil

Lee Feigenbaum: ack kjetil

15:01:01 <ivanh> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

15:01:05 <Souri> I'd prefer SPARUL to be a separate spec.

Souripriya Das: I'd prefer SPARUL to be a separate spec.

15:01:05 <ericP> motivated by andy's argument for sparql-compliance if you only do query

Unknown EricP: motivated by andy's argument for sparql-compliance if you only do query

15:01:34 <john-l> kjetil: I support separating out the two components.

Kjetil Kjernsmo: I support separating out the two components.

15:01:39 <ericP> i'm not sure how the grammar will work

Unknown EricP: i'm not sure how the grammar will work

15:01:52 <LeeF> q?

Lee Feigenbaum: q?

15:01:53 <LeeF> ack chimezie

Lee Feigenbaum: ack chimezie

15:01:54 <kjetil> Zakim, mute me

Kjetil Kjernsmo: Zakim, mute me

15:01:54 <Zakim> kjetil should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: kjetil should now be muted

15:02:05 <iv_an_ru> ericP, read-only sparql endpoint will just report "unauthorised" to all update requests :)

Ivan Mikhailov: ericP, read-only sparql endpoint will just report "unauthorised" to all update requests :)

15:02:06 <ericP> LeeF, i have to go. put me down for +1 on update

Unknown EricP: LeeF, i have to go. put me down for +1 on update

15:02:23 <john-l> chimezie: Updates could go to the protocol level.

Chimezie Ogbuji: Updates could go to the protocol level.

15:02:39 <LeeF> ack ivanh

Lee Feigenbaum: ack ivanh

15:02:39 <john-l> ... The protocol has some hooks that could allow modification.

... The protocol has some hooks that could allow modification.

15:02:39 <SteveH> +1 to whoever just spoke, we do that

Steve Harris: +1 to whoever just spoke, we do that

15:02:57 <ywang4> +1 again

Unknown ywang4: +1 again

15:02:58 <Zakim> -EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: -EricP

15:03:07 <ywang4> and gotta to leave, thanks guys

Unknown ywang4: and gotta to leave, thanks guys

15:03:08 <AndyS> EricP - could still have one grammar, two entry points (easier impl for me at least)l

Andy Seaborne: EricP - could still have one grammar, two entry points (easier impl for me at least)l

15:03:43 <SimonS> I have to leave. My oppinion is:

Simon Schenk: I have to leave. My oppinion is:

15:03:43 <kasei> service descriptions might help sort out endpoints that support update if they end up as two different different components

Gregory Williams: service descriptions might help sort out endpoints that support update if they end up as two different different components

15:03:47 <SimonS> -1 I think this important, but security is essential. That is quite involved, so better separate it.

Simon Schenk: -1 I think this important, but security is essential. That is quite involved, so better separate it.

15:03:55 <chimezie> i.e., the HTTP verbs cover some of the capabilities that are being proposed as part of the current update language

Chimezie Ogbuji: i.e., the HTTP verbs cover some of the capabilities that are being proposed as part of the current update language

15:04:22 <LeeF> zakim, who's here?

Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, who's here?

15:04:24 <LukeWM> +1

Luke Wilson-Mawer: +1

15:04:26 <john-l> LeeF: Final straw poll!

Lee Feigenbaum: Final straw poll!

15:04:29 <AndyS> Security matters a lot here IMHO

Andy Seaborne: Security matters a lot here IMHO

15:04:33 <SteveH> +1

Steve Harris: +1

15:04:35 <ivanh> +1 as a separate doc and with a large amount of scare

Ivan Herman: +1 as a separate doc and with a large amount of scare

15:04:36 <kasei> +1

Gregory Williams: +1

15:04:36 <kjetil> +1 (but separate Rec, this group should do it)

Kjetil Kjernsmo: +1 (but separate Rec, this group should do it)

15:04:37 <john-l> +0

+0

15:04:49 <Souri> -1, if separated +1

Souripriya Das: -1, if separated +1

15:04:50 <chimezie> -1 (in its current form)

Chimezie Ogbuji: -1 (in its current form)

15:04:55 <SteveH> +1 (IFF it's a seperate language) [correction]

Steve Harris: +1 (IFF it's a seperate language) [correction]

15:04:58 <Zakim> -SSchenk1

Zakim IRC Bot: -SSchenk1

15:05:00 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, ivanh, Souri, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri, DaveNewman, kjetil (muted), kasei (muted), AlexPassant

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, LeeF, ivanh, Souri, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri, DaveNewman, kjetil (muted), kasei (muted), AlexPassant

15:05:07 <LeeF> Orri: +1 (security might be implementation-specific)

Orri Erling: +1 (security might be implementation-specific) [ Scribe Assist by Lee Feigenbaum ]

15:05:12 <AlexPassant> +1 to get an update mechanism, no strong opinion re. included in SPARQL or related doc

Alexandre Passant: +1 to get an update mechanism, no strong opinion re. included in SPARQL or related doc

15:05:15 <dnewman2> +1

David Newman: +1

15:05:19 <LeeF> 0

Lee Feigenbaum: 0

15:05:28 <AndyS> +1 and pref seperate spec

Andy Seaborne: +1 and pref seperate spec

15:05:34 <Zakim> On IRC I see Souri, kasei, dnewman2, chimezie, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivanh, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil, trackbot,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Souri, kasei, dnewman2, chimezie, ywang4, LukeWM, SteveH, AndyS, RRSAgent, Zakim, AndyS_, ivanh, sandro, iv_an_ru, LeeF, KjetilK, AlexPassant, john-l, kjetil, trackbot,

15:05:39 <Zakim> ... ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: ... ericP

15:06:19 <LeeF> Thanks very much to john-l for scribing!

Lee Feigenbaum: Thanks very much to john-l for scribing!

15:06:25 <Zakim> -Chimezie_Ogbuji

Zakim IRC Bot: -Chimezie_Ogbuji

15:06:27 <Zakim> -DaveNewman

Zakim IRC Bot: -DaveNewman

15:06:29 <Zakim> -Orri

Zakim IRC Bot: -Orri

15:06:31 <Zakim> -ywang4

Zakim IRC Bot: -ywang4

15:06:32 <LeeF> RRSAgent, draft minutes

Lee Feigenbaum: RRSAgent, draft minutes

15:06:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/17-sparql-minutes.html LeeF

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2009/03/17-sparql-minutes.html LeeF

15:06:33 <Zakim> -Souri

Zakim IRC Bot: -Souri

15:06:35 <Zakim> -[Garlik]

Zakim IRC Bot: -[Garlik]

15:06:36 <LeeF> RRSAgent, make logs world

Lee Feigenbaum: RRSAgent, make logs world

15:06:39 <Zakim> -LeeF

Zakim IRC Bot: -LeeF

15:06:41 <Zakim> -kjetil

Zakim IRC Bot: -kjetil

15:06:42 <john-l> LeeF: Do you need me to do anything else?

Lee Feigenbaum: Do you need me to do anything else?

15:06:43 <Zakim> -iv_an_ru

Zakim IRC Bot: -iv_an_ru

15:06:45 <Zakim> -Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan

15:06:47 <Zakim> -AlexPassant

Zakim IRC Bot: -AlexPassant

15:06:47 <LeeF> john-l, nope I'll take it from here

Lee Feigenbaum: john-l, nope I'll take it from here

15:06:52 <john-l> LeeF: Cool, thanks!

Lee Feigenbaum: Cool, thanks!

15:06:59 <Zakim> -kasei

Zakim IRC Bot: -kasei

15:07:01 <Zakim> -john-l

Zakim IRC Bot: -john-l

15:07:09 <Zakim> -AndyS

Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS

15:07:13 <Zakim> SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended

15:07:15 <Zakim> Attendees were [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, EricP, LeeF, +0491768204aaaa, ivanh, Souri, SSchenk1, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri, DaveNewman, kjetil, +1.310.729.aacc, kasei,

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were [Garlik], john-l, AndyS, EricP, LeeF, +0491768204aaaa, ivanh, Souri, SSchenk1, ywang4, iv_an_ru, Chimezie_Ogbuji, Orri, DaveNewman, kjetil, +1.310.729.aacc, kasei,

15:07:18 <Zakim> ... AlexPassant

Zakim IRC Bot: ... AlexPassant



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