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13:59:18 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/06/09-rdfa-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/06/09-rdfa-irc ←
13:59:20 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
13:59:22 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7332
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 7332 ←
13:59:22 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute ←
13:59:23 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
13:59:23 <trackbot> Date: 09 June 2011
14:00:29 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started ←
14:00:30 <Zakim> + +44.123.456.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +44.123.456.aaaa ←
14:00:32 <Zakim> + +1.612.217.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.612.217.aabb ←
14:00:36 <Zakim> - +1.612.217.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.612.217.aabb ←
14:00:38 <Zakim> + +1.612.217.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.612.217.aabb ←
14:00:39 <Benjamin> zakim, I am aaaa
Benjamin Adrian: zakim, I am aaaa ←
14:00:39 <Zakim> +Benjamin; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Benjamin; got it ←
14:00:40 <ShaneM> zakim, aabb is ShaneM
Shane McCarron: zakim, aabb is ShaneM ←
14:00:40 <Zakim> +ShaneM; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM; got it ←
14:00:59 <Zakim> + +1.781.273.aacc
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.781.273.aacc ←
14:01:03 <MacTed> Zakim, code?
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, code? ←
14:01:03 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), MacTed
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), MacTed ←
14:01:06 <Zakim> +??P17
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P17 ←
14:01:12 <manu> zakim, I am ??P17
Manu Sporny: zakim, I am ??P17 ←
14:01:12 <Zakim> +manu; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +manu; got it ←
14:01:21 <MacTed> Zakim, aacc is OpenLink_Software
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, aacc is OpenLink_Software ←
14:01:21 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software; got it ←
14:01:25 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me ←
14:01:25 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it ←
14:01:27 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
14:01:27 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
14:01:40 <manu> zakim, who is on the call?
Manu Sporny: zakim, who is on the call? ←
14:01:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see Benjamin, ShaneM, MacTed (muted), manu
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Benjamin, ShaneM, MacTed (muted), manu ←
14:02:15 <manu> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Jun/0010.html
14:02:23 <manu> Present: Benjamin Adrian, Manu Sporny, Shane McCarron, Steven, Ted Thibodeau
14:02:25 <manu> Chair: manu
14:02:28 <manu> Scribe: Benjamin
(Scribe set to Benjamin Adrian)
14:02:34 <manu> scribenick: Benjamin
14:06:21 <manu> Regrets: Ivan
14:06:30 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
Steven Pemberton: zakim, dial steven-617 ←
14:06:30 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; the call is being made ←
14:06:32 <Zakim> +Steven
Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven ←
14:06:34 <Benjamin> Topic: schema.org announcement findings/effects
14:06:44 <Steven> Sorry for being late
Steven Pemberton: Sorry for being late ←
14:06:50 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me ←
14:06:50 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted ←
14:07:14 <Benjamin> manu: anything new about schema.org?
Manu Sporny: anything new about schema.org? ←
14:07:14 <manu> Here's the site that we'll be discussing today: http://schema.org/
Manu Sporny: Here's the site that we'll be discussing today: http://schema.org/ ←
14:08:06 <manu> Here is the vocabulary: http://schema.org/docs/schemas.html
Manu Sporny: Here is the vocabulary: http://schema.org/docs/schemas.html ←
14:08:10 <Benjamin> manu: google microsoft and yahoo have launched schema.org. It is a combination of picking a single syntax (Microdata) and a single vocabulary describing things that people search for.
Manu Sporny: google microsoft and yahoo have launched schema.org. It is a combination of picking a single syntax (Microdata) and a single vocabulary describing things that people search for. ←
14:09:22 <Benjamin> manu: They intend to create a shared markup and data vocabulary and make it easier for publishers easily decide which vocabulary to use - by mandating one. They think Microdata is the best balance between expressivity and simplicity. If you want to use schema.org - you MUST use Microdata and you MUST use their vocabulary.
Manu Sporny: They intend to create a shared markup and data vocabulary and make it easier for publishers easily decide which vocabulary to use - by mandating one. They think Microdata is the best balance between expressivity and simplicity. If you want to use schema.org - you MUST use Microdata and you MUST use their vocabulary. ←
14:10:08 <Benjamin> manu: people were asking: Why is Google forcing this choice of use of vocabulary and syntax? The minutes from the meeting yesterday are here: http://www.w3.org/2011/06/semtech-bof-notes.html
Manu Sporny: people were asking: Why is Google forcing this choice of use of vocabulary and syntax? The minutes from the meeting yesterday are here: http://www.w3.org/2011/06/semtech-bof-notes.html ←
14:10:51 <Benjamin> ... Google will provide legacy support for RDFa, but for latest features - Microdata is necessary.
... Google will provide legacy support for RDFa, but for latest features - Microdata is necessary. ←
14:11:14 <Benjamin> Steven: Other WorkingGroups are concerned and disturbed by this announcement.
Steven Pemberton: Other WorkingGroups are concerned and disturbed by this announcement. ←
14:11:55 <ShaneM> q+ to be devils advocate
Shane McCarron: q+ to be devils advocate ←
14:12:19 <manu> ack ShaneM
Manu Sporny: ack ShaneM ←
14:12:22 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to be devils advocate
Zakim IRC Bot: ShaneM, you wanted to be devils advocate ←
14:12:30 <Benjamin> ShaneM: There is a lot of vocabularies that already exists. If they map schema.org to it, that's fine.
Shane McCarron: There is a lot of vocabularies that already exists. If they map schema.org to it, that's fine. ←
14:13:25 <manu> q+ to elaborate
Manu Sporny: q+ to elaborate ←
14:14:25 <Benjamin> Shane: Google should use foaf for example, they should use GoodRelations.
Shane McCarron: Google should use foaf for example, they should use GoodRelations. ←
14:15:46 <Benjamin> manu: Three search engines agree on supporting a single vocabulary in a specific markup. This is a great use case for them - but not for the rest of the Web. Sure people will be able to search for these things, but what happens when somebody wants to use RDFa to markup a Google concept? With Microdata, it becomes increasingly difficult to mix vocabularies because you have to use full URIs - there are no CURIEs.
Manu Sporny: Three search engines agree on supporting a single vocabulary in a specific markup. This is a great use case for them - but not for the rest of the Web. Sure people will be able to search for these things, but what happens when somebody wants to use RDFa to markup a Google concept? With Microdata, it becomes increasingly difficult to mix vocabularies because you have to use full URIs - there are no CURIEs. ←
14:16:05 <ShaneM> q+ I forgot be be devils advocate
Shane McCarron: q+ I forgot be be devils advocate ←
14:16:14 <ShaneM> q+ to say I forgot to be devils advocate
Shane McCarron: q+ to say I forgot to be devils advocate ←
14:17:02 <Benjamin> manu: The danger is that RDFa content will no longer be viewed by the public as being valid. Google only supports Microdata - that's the message that seems to have been picked up by the public. This announcement will affect what RDFa publishers such as Drupal will generate - there is already a project that rips out all RDFa in preference for Microdata. This happened almost overnight because people trust Google to do the right thing - even though in this case, it's questionable what they're doing.
Manu Sporny: The danger is that RDFa content will no longer be viewed by the public as being valid. Google only supports Microdata - that's the message that seems to have been picked up by the public. This announcement will affect what RDFa publishers such as Drupal will generate - there is already a project that rips out all RDFa in preference for Microdata. This happened almost overnight because people trust Google to do the right thing - even though in this case, it's questionable what they're doing. ←
14:19:26 <manu> ack manu
Manu Sporny: ack manu ←
14:19:26 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to elaborate
Zakim IRC Bot: manu, you wanted to elaborate ←
14:19:30 <manu> ack shaneM
Manu Sporny: ack shaneM ←
14:19:30 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to say I forgot to be devils advocate
Zakim IRC Bot: ShaneM, you wanted to say I forgot to be devils advocate ←
14:19:31 <MacTed> q+
Ted Thibodeau: q+ ←
14:20:53 <Benjamin> Shane: Is this announcement really a bad thing for the Semantic Web? Would it not be better to support the Microdata community in publishing good semantic data?
Shane McCarron: Is this announcement really a bad thing for the Semantic Web? Would it not be better to support the Microdata community in publishing good semantic data? ←
14:20:55 <manu> (Notes that that is Shane's Devil's advocate position)
Manu Sporny: (Notes that that is Shane's Devil's advocate position) ←
14:20:59 <Benjamin> Manu: Yes, this is very good news for structured data on the Web. Several concerns: 1) Why did Google pick a winner without having hard data to back up their decision, 2) Should Google be able to pick a winner this early in the process?, 3) Microdata isn't even a W3C REC, we know it will change before it's out of REC, 4) Centralized vocabularies have failed before, what makes this centralized vocabulary different, 5) Does this give the top search companies too much power to dictate how the world models information?
Manu Sporny: Yes, this is very good news for structured data on the Web. Several concerns: 1) Why did Google pick a winner without having hard data to back up their decision, 2) Should Google be able to pick a winner this early in the process?, 3) Microdata isn't even a W3C REC, we know it will change before it's out of REC, 4) Centralized vocabularies have failed before, what makes this centralized vocabulary different, 5) Does this give the top search companies too much power to dictate how the world models information? ←
14:21:23 <manu> ack MacTed
Manu Sporny: ack MacTed ←
14:22:19 <manu> q+ to disagree about Drupal case
Manu Sporny: q+ to disagree about Drupal case ←
14:23:51 <manu> Ted: There are going to be many plugins that are going to support Microdata because of this - that's fine, it's not entirely a bad thing - but they're shooting themselves in the foot wrt the bigger picture. For example, there is nothing to stop CMS systems by publishing Microdata for the "GoogleBot" User Agent (for search only) and publishing RDFa for everything else. If they want SEO, great - use schema.org and Microdata. If you want to publish real data with easy vocabulary mixing on your website, use RDFa.
Ted Thibodeau: There are going to be many plugins that are going to support Microdata because of this - that's fine, it's not entirely a bad thing - but they're shooting themselves in the foot wrt the bigger picture. For example, there is nothing to stop CMS systems by publishing Microdata for the "GoogleBot" User Agent (for search only) and publishing RDFa for everything else. If they want SEO, great - use schema.org and Microdata. If you want to publish real data with easy vocabulary mixing on your website, use RDFa. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
14:23:55 <manu> ack manu
Manu Sporny: ack manu ←
14:23:55 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to disagree about Drupal case
Zakim IRC Bot: manu, you wanted to disagree about Drupal case ←
14:25:01 <Benjamin> manu: Drupal has to be responsive, so they will exchange RDFa with Microdata if their community asks for it. We should take this as a very serious issue for structured data on the Web. Microdata solves the simple case, but makes the more complex cases incredibly difficult to mark up.
Manu Sporny: Drupal has to be responsive, so they will exchange RDFa with Microdata if their community asks for it. We should take this as a very serious issue for structured data on the Web. Microdata solves the simple case, but makes the more complex cases incredibly difficult to mark up. ←
14:26:42 <Benjamin> ted: When the google bot hits your side, it identifies himself, so that the server can provide the data in a form the bot wants to see - Microdata for Googlebot, RDFa for everyone else.
Ted Thibodeau: When the google bot hits your side, it identifies himself, so that the server can provide the data in a form the bot wants to see - Microdata for Googlebot, RDFa for everyone else. ←
14:28:05 <Benjamin> manu: we should conclude that schema.org really affects us so that we should not ignore it.
Manu Sporny: we should conclude that schema.org really affects us so that we should not ignore it. ←
14:30:28 <Benjamin> manu: schema.org had said a couple of really disturbing things like: You can't use RDFa and Microdata on the same page. They retracted that statement yesterday as mistake, but I'm concerned that the initial announcement will stay in the public's consciousness as is the case with many of these sorts of announcements.
Manu Sporny: schema.org had said a couple of really disturbing things like: You can't use RDFa and Microdata on the same page. They retracted that statement yesterday as mistake, but I'm concerned that the initial announcement will stay in the public's consciousness as is the case with many of these sorts of announcements. ←
14:31:19 <Benjamin> manu: Second: Search Engines could just use RDFa 1.1 on schema.org - the technology is already there, they already parse it. Perhaps we can convince them, but the RDFa community will also need to step up and tell Google and schema.org what they want.
Manu Sporny: Second: Search Engines could just use RDFa 1.1 on schema.org - the technology is already there, they already parse it. Perhaps we can convince them, but the RDFa community will also need to step up and tell Google and schema.org what they want. ←
14:31:35 <manu> This could be one avenue: http://schema.rdfs.org/
Manu Sporny: This could be one avenue: http://schema.rdfs.org/ ←
14:31:48 <Benjamin> ... we could provide examples in RDFa and microdata as long as we know that Google is indexing the schema.org RDFa.
... we could provide examples in RDFa and microdata as long as we know that Google is indexing the schema.org RDFa. ←
14:32:25 <Benjamin> ... Michael hausenblas, Richard Cyganiak and folks from DERI already created a mapping from rdfs.org to schema.org - excellent work.
... Michael hausenblas, Richard Cyganiak and folks from DERI already created a mapping from rdfs.org to schema.org - excellent work. ←
14:32:48 <Benjamin> ... so we can map it similar on e.g., rdfa.org
... so we can map it similar on e.g., rdfa.org ←
14:32:48 <Benjamin> Topic: Next Steps
14:31:20 <Benjamin> manu: We need to take this very seriously, re-consider all input that we've gotten to this point - think if there is a way to simplify RDFa so that it is acceptable to the search teams at Microsoft and Google. We should consider every option that we can think of - including ones we've tabled before.
Manu Sporny: We need to take this very seriously, re-consider all input that we've gotten to this point - think if there is a way to simplify RDFa so that it is acceptable to the search teams at Microsoft and Google. We should consider every option that we can think of - including ones we've tabled before. ←
14:32:48 <Benjamin> Lots of discussion of all options on the table
Lots of discussion of all options on the table ←
15:00:00 <Benjamin> manu: We will put the candidate rec on hold for now and try to reason with Google/Microsoft and Yahoo. Most of the feedback on this announcement has been negative. We need to show them that they've just hurt a number of communities that have been convincing their organizations that structured data is the way to go. We'll see what their technical reasons are for not also supporting RDFa or Microformats - up to now, the reasons on their site don't add up. This has introduced a great deal of confusion into the market - if Google and Microsoft and Yahoo's goal was to speed adoption, it is having the opposite effect.
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Manu Sporny: We will put the candidate rec on hold for now and try to reason with Google/Microsoft and Yahoo. Most of the feedback on this announcement has been negative. We need to show them that they've just hurt a number of communities that have been convincing their organizations that structured data is the way to go. We'll see what their technical reasons are for not also supporting RDFa or Microformats - up to now, the reasons on their site don't add up. This has introduced a great deal of confusion into the market - if Google and Microsoft and Yahoo's goal was to speed adoption, it is having the opposite effect. ←
15:02:52 <Zakim> -ShaneM
Zakim IRC Bot: -ShaneM ←
15:02:54 <Zakim> -manu
Zakim IRC Bot: -manu ←
15:02:55 <Zakim> -Steven
Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven ←
15:02:57 <Zakim> -MacTed
Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed ←
15:02:58 <Zakim> -Benjamin
Zakim IRC Bot: -Benjamin ←
15:02:58 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFa()10:00AM has ended ←
15:03:00 <Zakim> Attendees were +44.123.456.aaaa, +1.612.217.aabb, Benjamin, ShaneM, +1.781.273.aacc, manu, MacTed, Steven
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were +44.123.456.aaaa, +1.612.217.aabb, Benjamin, ShaneM, +1.781.273.aacc, manu, MacTed, Steven ←
Formatted by CommonScribe