None.
13:23:53 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-rdfa-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/09-rdfa-irc ←
13:23:55 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
13:23:57 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7332
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 7332 ←
13:23:57 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 37 minutes
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 37 minutes ←
13:23:58 <trackbot> Meeting: RDFa Working Group Teleconference
13:23:58 <trackbot> Date: 09 September 2010
13:24:10 <ivan> Chair: Ivan
13:25:15 <ivan> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2010Sep/0036.html agenda call for the meeting
Ivan Herman: -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2010Sep/0036.html agenda call for the meeting ←
13:56:22 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
(No events recorded for 31 minutes)
Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip ←
13:56:22 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made ←
13:56:23 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started ←
13:56:24 <Zakim> +Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan ←
14:00:20 <Zakim> +ShaneM
Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM ←
14:00:29 <Zakim> + +3539149aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +3539149aaaa ←
14:00:41 <ivan> zakim, aaaa is Knuth
Ivan Herman: zakim, aaaa is Knuth ←
14:00:41 <Zakim> +Knuth; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Knuth; got it ←
14:00:56 <Knud> it's Knud, actually. :)
Knud Möller: it's Knud, actually. :) ←
14:01:04 <Knud> zakim, mute me
Knud Möller: zakim, mute me ←
14:01:04 <Zakim> sorry, Knud, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, Knud, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you ←
14:01:04 <Zakim> present: markbirbeck, ShaneM, Ivan, Knud, tinkster, steven
14:01:14 <Zakim> -Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan ←
14:01:21 <markbirbeck> zakim, code?
Mark Birbeck: zakim, code? ←
14:01:22 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), markbirbeck
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), markbirbeck ←
14:01:28 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip ←
14:01:28 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made ←
14:01:28 <Knud> zakim, aaaa is Knud
Knud Möller: zakim, aaaa is Knud ←
14:01:28 <Zakim> sorry, Knud, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, Knud, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa' ←
14:01:30 <Zakim> +Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan ←
14:01:40 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
Steven Pemberton: zakim, dial steven-617 ←
14:01:40 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Steven; the call is being made ←
14:01:41 <Zakim> +Steven
Zakim IRC Bot: +Steven ←
14:01:49 <Zakim> + +44.785.583.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: + +44.785.583.aabb ←
14:01:50 <Knud> zakim, Knuth is Knud
Knud Möller: zakim, Knuth is Knud ←
14:01:50 <Zakim> +Knud; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Knud; got it ←
14:01:55 <Knud> zakim, mute me
Knud Möller: zakim, mute me ←
14:01:55 <Zakim> Knud should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Knud should now be muted ←
14:01:58 <Knud> better?
Knud Möller: better? ←
14:02:54 <tinkster> yes
Toby Inkster: yes ←
14:03:03 <tinkster> zakim, who's on the phone?
Toby Inkster: zakim, who's on the phone? ←
14:03:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ivan, ShaneM, Knud (muted), Steven, +44.785.583.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Ivan, ShaneM, Knud (muted), Steven, +44.785.583.aabb ←
14:03:11 <tinkster> zakim,aabb is me
Toby Inkster: zakim,aabb is me ←
14:03:11 <Zakim> +tinkster; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +tinkster; got it ←
14:03:24 <tinkster> yep.
Toby Inkster: yep. ←
14:04:17 <ivan> scribenick: tinkster
(Scribe set to Toby Inkster)
14:04:22 <ivan> scribe: Toby
14:05:02 <Knud> I think mark is about to call in
Knud Möller: I think mark is about to call in ←
14:05:11 <Knud> :)
Knud Möller: :) ←
14:05:22 <tinkster> Ivan: manu sent out an agenda. First item is RDFa API. Mark, Manu and Benjamin are absent, so difficult to discuss this item. Unless Benjamin and Mark appear, we should skip it for now.
Ivan Herman: manu sent out an agenda. First item is RDFa API. Mark, Manu and Benjamin are absent, so difficult to discuss this item. Unless Benjamin and Mark appear, we should skip it for now. ←
14:05:42 <Zakim> +??P2
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2 ←
14:05:44 <Zakim> -??P2
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P2 ←
14:06:20 <Zakim> +??P2
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2 ←
14:06:32 <markbirbeck> zakim, ?
Mark Birbeck: zakim, ? ←
14:06:32 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, markbirbeck.
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand your question, markbirbeck. ←
14:06:38 <ivan> zakim, P2 is mark
Ivan Herman: zakim, P2 is mark ←
14:06:38 <Zakim> sorry, ivan, I do not recognize a party named 'P2'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, ivan, I do not recognize a party named 'P2' ←
14:06:38 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am ?
Mark Birbeck: zakim, i am ? ←
14:06:39 <Zakim> +markbirbeck; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +markbirbeck; got it ←
14:06:46 <ivan> zakim, ??P2 is mark
Ivan Herman: zakim, ??P2 is mark ←
14:06:46 <Zakim> I already had ??P2 as markbirbeck, ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: I already had ??P2 as markbirbeck, ivan ←
14:09:01 <Zakim> -ShaneM
Zakim IRC Bot: -ShaneM ←
14:09:13 <ShaneM> grrr. brb
Shane McCarron: grrr. brb ←
14:09:13 <ShaneM>topic: RDFa API, vs. RDF API (re Sandro's mail)
14:09:25 <tinkster> Ivan: have people seen Sandro Hawke's email, fowarded to the WG mailing list?
Ivan Herman: have people seen Sandro Hawke's email, fowarded to the WG mailing list? ←
14:09:51 <Zakim> +ShaneM
Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM ←
14:10:12 <markbirbeck> q+, To say that this is no accident. :)
Mark Birbeck: q+, To say that this is no accident. :) ←
14:10:23 <markbirbeck> q+
Mark Birbeck: q+ ←
14:10:49 <tinkster> ... Gist of it is that the RDFa API defines a generalised RDF API. I (Ivan) would agree that the DOM-dependent parts of it are fairly small; a lot of it is very general though we don't advertise the API that way.
... Gist of it is that the RDFa API defines a generalised RDF API. I (Ivan) would agree that the DOM-dependent parts of it are fairly small; a lot of it is very general though we don't advertise the API that way. ←
14:11:18 <ivan> ack markbirbeck
Ivan Herman: ack markbirbeck ←
14:11:22 <tinkster> ... Community could find a general RDF API useful, so should we make this a clear aim of the RDFa API?
... Community could find a general RDF API useful, so should we make this a clear aim of the RDFa API? ←
14:13:11 <tinkster> markbirbeck: The way this came about is that the first drafts were very RDFa-specific. Obviously, RDFa is a serialisation of RDF, so there's always going to be a generic component. Manu integrated my (Mark's) ideas with Benjamin's. During this, the RDFa-specific stuff diminished.
Mark Birbeck: The way this came about is that the first drafts were very RDFa-specific. Obviously, RDFa is a serialisation of RDF, so there's always going to be a generic component. Manu integrated my (Mark's) ideas with Benjamin's. During this, the RDFa-specific stuff diminished. ←
14:13:52 <Knud> :D
Knud Möller: :D ←
14:14:22 <tinkster> ... My input has come from my own RDF library, which in turn takes inspiration from various other libraries.
... My input has come from my own RDF library, which in turn takes inspiration from various other libraries. ←
14:14:58 <tinkster> ... I did look at Tabulator when I first started. Ivan had commented that there are similarities with Jena's API.
... I did look at Tabulator when I first started. Ivan had commented that there are similarities with Jena's API. ←
14:16:13 <tinkster> Ivan: so can we make this more explicit, and can we get people to review its potential as a general RDF API?
Ivan Herman: so can we make this more explicit, and can we get people to review its potential as a general RDF API? ←
14:16:35 <markbirbeck> q+
Mark Birbeck: q+ ←
14:16:40 <ivan> ack markbirbeck
Ivan Herman: ack markbirbeck ←
14:16:44 <tinkster> ... How difficult/easy would it be to make the generalness of the API explicit in the document?
... How difficult/easy would it be to make the generalness of the API explicit in the document? ←
14:17:06 <ShaneM> A title change might be the right thing to do.
Shane McCarron: A title change might be the right thing to do. ←
14:17:26 <tinkster> markbirbeck: quite easy, but this might be difficult from a political perspective.
Mark Birbeck: quite easy, but this might be difficult from a political perspective. ←
14:18:24 <tinkster> zakim, mute me
zakim, mute me ←
14:18:24 <Zakim> tinkster should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: tinkster should now be muted ←
14:19:23 <tinkster> Ivan: The W3C Semantic Web Activity is definitely the right place to define an RDF API; and within the Activity, the RDFa WG seems the most appropriate currently existing working group.
Ivan Herman: The W3C Semantic Web Activity is definitely the right place to define an RDF API; and within the Activity, the RDFa WG seems the most appropriate currently existing working group. ←
14:19:46 <tinkster> ... But would people expect a new group to be set up?
... But would people expect a new group to be set up? ←
14:20:18 <tinkster> ... Should we change the document before or after we go public with the generic-API message?
... Should we change the document before or after we go public with the generic-API message? ←
14:21:40 <tinkster> markbirbeck: Let's not change this in the next publication round. And then maybe look at an RDF API document - perhaps as a fork.
Mark Birbeck: Let's not change this in the next publication round. And then maybe look at an RDF API document - perhaps as a fork. ←
14:22:20 <tinkster> ivan: I'm not sure about two parallel documents - even on a temporary basis.
Ivan Herman: I'm not sure about two parallel documents - even on a temporary basis. ←
14:22:32 <ShaneM> dont mind.
Shane McCarron: dont mind. ←
14:22:36 <Knud> agreeing
Knud Möller: agreeing ←
14:22:40 <Steven_> +0
Steven Pemberton: +0 ←
14:24:01 <tinkster> Ivan: we should all blog/tweet/email the general RDF community for feedback.
Ivan Herman: we should all blog/tweet/email the general RDF community for feedback. ←
14:25:16 <tinkster> Ivan: the real goal of the API is Javascript - how valid is it for other languages.
Ivan Herman: the real goal of the API is Javascript - how valid is it for other languages. ←
14:27:17 <tinkster> ShaneM: I think it's interesting that an RDFa API has a subset that is applicable to general RDF.
Shane McCarron: I think it's interesting that an RDFa API has a subset that is applicable to general RDF. ←
14:27:48 <Steven_> I think that that is safer
Steven Pemberton: I think that that is safer ←
14:29:36 <tinkster> Ivan: actually the RDFa-specific bits of the RDFa API aren't really RDFa-specific: they're DOM-specific.
Ivan Herman: actually the RDFa-specific bits of the RDFa API aren't really RDFa-specific: they're DOM-specific. ←
14:30:17 <Zakim> -Knud
Zakim IRC Bot: -Knud ←
14:30:22 <tinkster> ... Before we start beating drums we should agree on a sales pitch.
... Before we start beating drums we should agree on a sales pitch. ←
14:30:27 <Knud> weird
Knud Möller: weird ←
14:31:24 <Zakim> +Knud
Zakim IRC Bot: +Knud ←
14:31:34 <Knud> zakim, mute me
Knud Möller: zakim, mute me ←
14:31:34 <Zakim> Knud should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Knud should now be muted ←
14:31:44 <markbirbeck> ACTION: Mark to add proposed wording to wiki for how we might approach the RDFa API->RDF API discussion.
ACTION: Mark to add proposed wording to wiki for how we might approach the RDFa API->RDF API discussion. ←
14:31:44 <trackbot> Created ACTION-37 - Add proposed wording to wiki for how we might approach the RDFa API->RDF API discussion. [on Mark Birbeck - due 2010-09-16].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-37 - Add proposed wording to wiki for how we might approach the RDFa API->RDF API discussion. [on Mark Birbeck - due 2010-09-16]. ←
14:31:06 <ivan> Topic: Issue 39.
14:32:00 <tinkster> ivan: the next item is ISSUE-39. Firstly, Richard Cyganiak brought up a simpler format for term mappings.
Ivan Herman: the next item is ISSUE-39. Firstly, Richard Cyganiak brought up a simpler format for term mappings. ←
14:33:09 <ShaneM> q+
Shane McCarron: q+ ←
14:33:10 <tinkster> ... Secondly, Mark is not keen on using RDF for profiles at all.
... Secondly, Mark is not keen on using RDF for profiles at all. ←
14:33:15 <ivan> ack ShaneM
Ivan Herman: ack ShaneM ←
14:33:16 <Steven_> action-37?
Steven Pemberton: ACTION-37? ←
14:33:16 <trackbot> ACTION-37 -- Mark Birbeck to add proposed wording to wiki for how we might approach the RDFa API->RDF API discussion. -- due 2010-09-16 -- OPEN
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-37 -- Mark Birbeck to add proposed wording to wiki for how we might approach the RDFa API->RDF API discussion. -- due 2010-09-16 -- OPEN ←
14:33:16 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/actions/37
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/actions/37 ←
14:35:54 <tinkster> ShaneM/Mark: Mark isn't asking for this issue to be reopened. Mark thinks this issue shouldn't have been closed in the first place - there wasn't consensus on it.
ShaneM/Mark: Mark isn't asking for this issue to be reopened. Mark thinks this issue shouldn't have been closed in the first place - there wasn't consensus on it. ←
14:36:45 <tinkster> Mark: I don't want to slow the work down, but this is an issue I feel strongly about.
Mark Birbeck: I don't want to slow the work down, but this is an issue I feel strongly about. ←
14:37:45 <ShaneM> I still think we can resolve issue 39 regardless of the other bit.
Shane McCarron: I still think we can resolve ISSUE-39 regardless of the other bit. ←
14:38:59 <tinkster> ivan: I don't want to make a big procedural issue about this, but it's a good idea to try to sort this out before we get to last call.
Ivan Herman: I don't want to make a big procedural issue about this, but it's a good idea to try to sort this out before we get to last call. ←
14:39:22 <Steven_> issue-39?
14:39:22 <trackbot> ISSUE-39 -- Profiles, term mappings, and URIs as literals -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-39 -- Profiles, term mappings, and URIs as literals -- open ←
14:39:22 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/39
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/39 ←
14:40:58 <tinkster> ... ShaneM: I think we can still work on Richard's bit of ISSUE-39 under the assumption that we're using RDF profiles. If we change profile format later on, so be it.
... ShaneM: I think we can still work on Richard's bit of ISSUE-39 under the assumption that we're using RDF profiles. If we change profile format later on, so be it. ←
14:42:00 <tinkster> tinkster: I can live with whatever resolution is being proposed.
Toby Inkster: I can live with whatever resolution is being proposed. ←
14:42:41 <ShaneM> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/wiki/ProfileSpec
Shane McCarron: http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/wiki/ProfileSpec ←
14:45:44 <Zakim> -ShaneM
Zakim IRC Bot: -ShaneM ←
14:46:22 <markbirbeck> waiting for Shane... :)
Mark Birbeck: waiting for Shane... :) ←
14:46:22 <Zakim> +ShaneM
Zakim IRC Bot: +ShaneM ←
14:46:27 <ShaneM> grrrr
Shane McCarron: grrrr ←
14:47:34 <tinkster> markbirbeck: I object to this change.
Mark Birbeck: I object to this change. ←
14:48:07 <tinkster> ... And I think this is the kind of thing that a lot of semweb people might object to it.
... And I think this is the kind of thing that a lot of semweb people might object to it. ←
14:48:54 <tinkster> ... It's simpler, but it's not good RDF. The W3C has held the line on RDF semantics for many years, we shouldn't break ranks.
... It's simpler, but it's not good RDF. The W3C has held the line on RDF semantics for many years, we shouldn't break ranks. ←
14:48:54 <ShaneM> q+ to ask mark about mappings
Shane McCarron: q+ to ask mark about mappings ←
14:51:41 <ivan> ack ShaneM
Ivan Herman: ack ShaneM ←
14:51:41 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to ask mark about mappings
Zakim IRC Bot: ShaneM, you wanted to ask mark about mappings ←
14:52:18 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
14:53:33 <tinkster> ShaneM: the RDFa profile document, when it's not being processed as a profile - when it's just being read as a document itself - then those triples should mean something.
Shane McCarron: the RDFa profile document, when it's not being processed as a profile - when it's just being read as a document itself - then those triples should mean something. ←
14:53:45 <markbirbeck> <http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/name> rdfa:term "name" .
Mark Birbeck: <http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/name> rdfa:term "name" . ←
14:54:04 <tinkster> ... Is it your assertion that the proposal makes the profiles less meaningful as documents.
... Is it your assertion that the proposal makes the profiles less meaningful as documents. ←
14:55:12 <tinkster> markbirbeck: yes. The example I just posted is sufficient for processing, but not very good semantically.
Mark Birbeck: yes. The example I just posted is sufficient for processing, but not very good semantically. ←
14:55:26 <markbirbeck> ?x rdfa:term "name" .
Mark Birbeck: ?x rdfa:term "name" . ←
14:55:26 <markbirbeck> ?x rdfa:uri "http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/name" .
Mark Birbeck: ?x rdfa:uri "http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/name" . ←
14:55:32 <tinkster> ... semantically we're annotating foaf:name there rather than just defining a mapping.
... semantically we're annotating foaf:name there rather than just defining a mapping. ←
14:56:10 <ivan> ack ivan
Ivan Herman: ack ivan ←
14:57:39 <tinkster> ivan: I don't deny the original vocab is semantically more correct. Even Richard agreed with that. But the proposal is about a compromise between ease-of-use and semantic-correctness.
Ivan Herman: I don't deny the original vocab is semantically more correct. Even Richard agreed with that. But the proposal is about a compromise between ease-of-use and semantic-correctness. ←
14:58:30 <tinkster> markbirbeck: isn't it the W3C's job to aim for correctness in standards?
Shane McCarron: isn't it the W3C's job to aim for correctness in standards? ←
14:58:52 <tinkster> s/markbirbeck/ShaneM/
14:59:34 <ShaneM> we can't be codifying things that are incorrect. that way lies madness.
Shane McCarron: we can't be codifying things that are incorrect. that way lies madness. ←
14:59:47 <tinkster> markbirbeck: Some of these things are being discussed as part of rdf.next, but we shouldn't jump the gun: we should keep to existing RDF semantics.
Mark Birbeck: Some of these things are being discussed as part of rdf.next, but we shouldn't jump the gun: we should keep to existing RDF semantics. ←
15:00:39 <tinkster> ShaneM: profile authors will be a rare breed. if things are a little more complicated for them, so be it.
Shane McCarron: profile authors will be a rare breed. if things are a little more complicated for them, so be it. ←
15:01:04 <tinkster> ivan: The way I see this going is that we should resolve in favour of no change.
Ivan Herman: The way I see this going is that we should resolve in favour of no change. ←
15:01:32 <tinkster> ShaneM: there are some editorial changes needed.
Shane McCarron: there are some editorial changes needed. ←
15:01:33 <ivan> PROPOSED: on ISSUE-39 do not change the current structures
PROPOSED: on ISSUE-39 do not change the current structures ←
15:01:53 <tinkster> ShaneM: do we have a quorum?
Shane McCarron: do we have a quorum? ←
15:02:50 <tinkster> ShaneM: we should e-mail the list with our no-change conclusion, but not enough people here for an on-call resolution.
Shane McCarron: we should e-mail the list with our no-change conclusion, but not enough people here for an on-call resolution. ←
15:03:46 <ivan> - adjurned
Ivan Herman: - adjurned ←
15:03:59 <Zakim> -ShaneM
Zakim IRC Bot: -ShaneM ←
15:04:09 <ivan> zakim, drop me
Ivan Herman: zakim, drop me ←
15:04:09 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected
Zakim IRC Bot: Ivan is being disconnected ←
15:04:10 <Zakim> -Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan ←
15:04:10 <Zakim> -markbirbeck
Zakim IRC Bot: -markbirbeck ←
15:04:11 <Zakim> -Knud
Zakim IRC Bot: -Knud ←
15:04:13 <Zakim> -Steven
Zakim IRC Bot: -Steven ←
15:04:23 <tinkster> ivan: I'll get Manu to call for an ISSUE-39 vote on the mailing list.
Ivan Herman: I'll get Manu to call for an ISSUE-39 vote on the mailing list. ←
15:04:28 <Zakim> -tinkster
Zakim IRC Bot: -tinkster ←
15:04:29 <Zakim> SW_RDFa()10:00AM has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFa()10:00AM has ended ←
15:04:31 <Zakim> Attendees were Ivan, ShaneM, +3539149aaaa, Steven, +44.785.583.aabb, Knud, tinkster, markbirbeck
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Ivan, ShaneM, +3539149aaaa, Steven, +44.785.583.aabb, Knud, tinkster, markbirbeck ←
Formatted by CommonScribe