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Scribe problem: the name 'msporny' does not match any of the 3 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, msporny; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 25 minutes ←

Scribe problem: the name 'Manu_Sporny' does not match any of the 0 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names:

Scribe problem: the name 'Shane_McCarron' does not match any of the 0 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names:

Scribe problem: the name 'Manu_Sporny' does not match any of the 0 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names:

Scribe problem: the name 'Ben_Adida' does not match any of the 0 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names:

Scribe problem: the name 'Michael_Hausenblas' does not match any of the 0 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names:

Scribe problem: the name 'Mark_Birbeck' does not match any of the 0 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names:

Trackbot IRC Bot: If you want to associate this channel with an existing Tracker, please say 'trackbot, associate this channel with #channel' (where #channel is the name of default channel for the group) ←

Scribe problem: the name 'ShaneM' does not match any of the 5 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Unknown Shane_McCarron Unknown Manu_Sporny Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'msporny' does not match any of the 5 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Unknown Shane_McCarron Unknown Manu_Sporny Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Scribe problem: the name 'rubys' does not match any of the 5 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Unknown Shane_McCarron Unknown Manu_Sporny Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown msporny: want to join us on the call... it's a very small group today. ←

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see rubys, trackbot, ShaneM, Zakim, RRSAgent, msporny ←

Scribe problem: the name 'Ralph' does not match any of the 5 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Unknown Shane_McCarron Unknown Manu_Sporny Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

[CONTINUES] ACTION: Ben to author wiki page with charter template for RDFa IG. Manu to provide support where needed. [recorded in ACTION-10]">http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-10] ←

[DONE] ACTION: Manu to go through and categorize issues and requirements that we should address going forward. [recorded in ACTION-12]">http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-12] ←

[CONTINUES] ACTION: Ralph make a request for an RDFa issue tracker instance [recorded in ACTION-11]">http://www.w3.org/2009/05/28-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-11] ←

[CONTINUES] ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa" with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded in ACTION-12]">http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-12] ←

[CONTINUES] ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for Ivan. [recorded in ACTION-09]">http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-09] ←

[CONTINUES] ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in ACTION-12]">http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-12] ←

[CONTINUES] ACTION: Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff [recorded in ACTION-11]">http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-11] ←

[CONTINUES] ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in ACTION-13]">http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-13] ←

[CONTINUES] ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in ACTION-14]">http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-14] ←

[CONTINUES] ACTION: Ralph or Steven fix the .htaccess for the XHTML namespace [recorded in ACTION-01]">http://www.w3.org/2009/01/08-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-01] ←

[CONTINUES] ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in ACTION-15]">http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#ACTION-15] ←

Unknown Ralph: This issue was a comment that came during SKOS implementation. ←

Unknown Ralph: The WG decided that it was more of an editorial question for RDFa TF to consider. ←

Unknown Ralph: We might consider providing community advice in the case where the same URI might be a piece of an RDF vocabulary or a target in an HTML document. ←

Unknown Ralph: In the case where the mimetype of the document is HTML, or application/rdf+xml ←

Unknown Ralph: in the case of RDFa, it's not so clear that an application can disambiguate between the two types of documents. ←

Unknown Ralph: You should not use the same URI for the name in an HTML document as well as a term in an RDF vocabulary. ←

Unknown ShaneM: I have a URI, which is interpreted in the context of the HTTP request header. ←

Unknown ShaneM: A semantic web application will follow-your-nose that should take you to the definition of a vocabulary item. ←

Unknown ShaneM: from a content negotiation perspective, the server should send back what the requester wants. ←

Unknown ShaneM: If the request is rdf+xml, then it should extract the triples from the XHTML document and send those back as rdf+xml. ←

Unknown Ralph: Eric Prudhommeaux (sp?) might have something to say about this. ←

Unknown Ralph: there might be use cases where the subject of a triple might well want to be a particular bit of HTML markup [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Manu_Sporny: might be something to handle in a validator [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Scribe problem: the name 'ralph' does not match any of the 5 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Unknown Shane_McCarron Unknown Manu_Sporny Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Manu_Sporny: people might do id='foo' and about='foo' when they're doing vocabulary authoring [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Ralph: ... it's nice to be able to drop a vocabulary term into a Web browser and see a document ←

Unknown Ralph: How can we say something about the ID "foo" <p id="foo" about="#foo"> and not the about="#foo" [ Scribe Assist by Unknown msporny ] ←

Unknown Shane_McCarron: and XML requires something of type ID in order for the fragment to be valie [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Ralph: ... in general, id='foo' about='foo' always occurs when you want to bind triples to a block in a document ←

Unknown Ralph: ... when referring to a local definition of a term you'd have an ID and you'd bind to it using @about ←

Unknown Manu_Sporny: maybe we should create a Wiki page and develop a best practice in this area [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Shane_McCarron: looking for advice on what are acceptable test suite copyrights [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Manu_Sporny: specifically, is the MIT license sufficient? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown rubys: in general, MIT licensed code can be pulled into almost any codebase; the reverse is not necessarily true ←

Unknown Manu_Sporny: I'd taken action to propose a discussion order [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Scribe problem: the name 'Sam' does not match any of the 5 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Unknown Shane_McCarron Unknown Manu_Sporny Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot

Unknown Sam: suggest moving " Requirement: RDFa signalling mechanism for XHTML+RDFa, HTML+RDFa, and how does mime-type affect that mechanism?" higher [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Ralph: ... html served as text/xml is interpreted differently by different browsers ←

Unknown Manu_Sporny: propose to move the signalling discussion after "target of RDFa processing rules" and before "Do we need to cut features from RDFa to support HTML+RDFa?" [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Ralph: ... some of these items have been raised in email but I'm not persuaded they're really issues ←

Unknown Manu_Sporny: so move "RDFa signalling mechanism" to 2nd position [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown rubys: if they aren't really issues, they should be able to be disposed of quickly. ←

Unknown Manu_Sporny: question is "on what do the RDFa processing rules operate?" [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Ralph: ... now we're trying to explain how this works across all languages ←

Unknown Ralph: ... and generate the same triples across all document [types] ←

Unknown Ralph: ... goal is to find a set of rules that works on a parse tree or an abstract syntax tree rather than on a DOM ←

Unknown Ralph: ... so define the rules in a way not based on serialization of a specific language ←

Unknown Shane_McCarron: Mark has a clever way of thinking about this [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Ralph: ... as I understand it, Mark's model is that RDFa is at the application layer so whatever the underlying layer provides to the application is what should be worked on ←

Unknown Ralph: ... this solves the RDFa specification problem but doesn't solve the "I want the same triples when I give the same document content to different things" ←

Unknown Ralph: ... I don't see how we can control the structure of the _input_ to RDFa in a meaningful way ←

Unknown Ralph: ... will happen differently in legacy browsers, HTML5, new browsers, etc. ←

Unknown Ralph: ... I'm not optimistic that we'll find a way to guarantee the same triples everywhere ←

Unknown Sam: if we can find a subset that _does_ give the same triples and note the other cases with a recommendation not to to those [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Ralph: ... can't assume that the consumer respects the well-formed input requirement ←

Unknown Shane_McCarron: ignored by user agents but not by tool chain processors [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Sam: wise to accept that some people will be processing this in browsers and give advice on what won't work there [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Shane_McCarron: I do think we can restrict the language so that it has more predictable behaviours under different processing models [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Sam: e.g. if a single document has two names that differ only in case, that's probably wierd and don't do it [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Shane_McCarron: yep, we just never considered that case in our prior discussions [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Manu_Sporny: the test cases put on the mailing list are really good starting points [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Ralph: ... we should be clear about what model the RDFa rules are operating on but I do not see a reason to strip out any rules ←

Unknown Ralph: ... Mark's position is that we can't control the input to the RDFa processing rules ←

Unknown Ralph: ... we can't control how things get put into a DOM; that's in the domain of the HTML WG ←

Unknown Ralph: ... so the RDFa processing rules ought to be restated in terms of _some_ incoming model ←

Unknown Ralph: ... RDFa might be used in something that has nothing to do with a DOM ←

Unknown Ralph: ... if you run an HTML document through two different processors, one producing a DOM and the other not then I don't see how we can guarantee in all cases to produce the same triples ←

Unknown rubys: I agree with DOM as the answer to question #1... the problem is that Drupal is producing content with RDFa, and depending on the user agent, it may be processed differently. If you look at Phillip's tests there will be cases where they answers will differ, and some of these can't be solved. In some cases, the answer may be "don't do that". Example: if you define an XML literal and serve the content as text/html, be sure that you don't define any content that HTM ←

Unknown Ralph: ... they _might_ be the same in some cases but I don't think we should try to guarantee the same triples in all cases ←

Unknown Shane_McCarron: from personal experience, some of our tests produced foreign elements that were removed from the DOM tree I was handed [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown rubys: ... that HTML5 processing rules will reorder or change in a way that can't be addressed by the parser. ←

Unknown Ralph: ... I don't have control over this; I can only work on what I'm handed ←

Unknown Manu_Sporny: can we come up with an example that shows how a well-formed document would generate different triples? [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Shane_McCarron: comes up when embedding foreign stuff, e.g. SVG -- the SVG simply doesn't show up in the DOM [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Ralph: ... there could be RDFa annotations on the SVG but I've lost them ←

Unknown Ralph: ... the XML literal case may well be the most glaring example ←

Unknown Ralph: ... there are several ways to address this and I don't have a strong preference for which we pick ←

Unknown Ralph: ... I sort-of like Mark's suggestion to change the default to not be an XML literal ←

Unknown Ralph: ... so you'd only produce an XML literal in a triple when you explicitly ask for one ←

Unknown Manu_Sporny: the side-effect of making it not automatically an XML literal is that it will process the content [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Ralph: ... e.g. <spam about='foo'> inside the content would cause triples to be generated ←

Unknown Shane_McCarron: that's probably a corner case [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Manu_Sporny: the reason for a change is to make XML literals the same between HTML and XHTML [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

Unknown Ralph: ... but there's a parallel discussion suggesting that it may be OK for the triples to differ given different input ←

Unknown Shane_McCarron: the core issue here is whether it makes any sense to generate XML literals in a non-XML context [ Scribe Assist by Unknown Ralph ] ←

RDF in XHTML Task Force

Minutes of 04 June 2009

1. Action Review

2. Ralph to discuss ISSUE-214

3. Copyright for W3C Test Suites

4. Discussion order for HTML+RDFa issues

5. Start "Target of RDFa Processing Rules" discussion