edit

RDF Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 01 May 2013

Seen
Andy Seaborne, Charles Greer, Eric Prud'hommeaux, Gavin Carothers, Gregg Kellogg, Guus Schreiber, Ivan Herman, Markus Lanthaler, Patrick Hayes, Peter Patel-Schneider, Pierre-Antoine Champin, Sandro Hawke, Souripriya Das, Steve Harris, Ted Thibodeau, Yves Raimond, Zhe Wu
Chair
Guus Schreiber
Scribe
Charles Greer
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions
  1. to accept the minutes of the 24 April telecon link
  2. close issue-63: we'll specifying rdf:HTML by deferring the semantics (lexical-to-value mapping) to whatever is latest/greatest HTML standard. This only comes up for people trying to do D-Entailment on rdf:HTML literals --- determining equality of value, and checking for ill-typed. link
  3. to resolve ISSUE-118 according to Pat's proposal in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013May/0014.html [17:55] <cgreer> hahah link
Topics
14:56:13 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/05/01-rdf-wg-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/05/01-rdf-wg-irc

14:56:15 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

14:56:17 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394

14:56:17 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes

14:56:18 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:56:18 <trackbot> Date: 01 May 2013
14:59:55 <TallTed> Zakim, this is 73394

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, this is 73394

14:59:55 <Zakim> ok, TallTed; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, TallTed; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM

14:59:59 <TallTed> Zakim, who's here?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's here?

14:59:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus_Schreiber, GavinC, Sandro, OpenLink_Software

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Guus_Schreiber, GavinC, Sandro, OpenLink_Software

15:00:00 <Zakim> On IRC I see gkellogg, markus, Zakim, RRSAgent, AndyS, gavinc, Guus, TallTed, SteveH, ivan, manu1, yvesr, manu, ericP, mischat, sandro, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see gkellogg, markus, Zakim, RRSAgent, AndyS, gavinc, Guus, TallTed, SteveH, ivan, manu1, yvesr, manu, ericP, mischat, sandro, trackbot

15:00:08 <TallTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

15:00:08 <Zakim> +TallTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +TallTed; got it

15:00:09 <TallTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

15:00:09 <Zakim> TallTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: TallTed should now be muted

15:01:14 <Zakim> +Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan

15:01:18 <Zakim> +pfps

Zakim IRC Bot: +pfps

15:01:23 <Zakim> +??P25

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P25

15:01:27 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

15:01:32 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me

Andy Seaborne: zakim, IPCaller is me

15:01:32 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it

15:01:35 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P25 is me

Yves Raimond: Zakim, ??P25 is me

15:01:35 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +yvesr; got it

15:02:01 <Guus> zakim, who is here?

Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here?

15:02:01 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus_Schreiber, GavinC, Sandro, TallTed (muted), Ivan, pfps, yvesr, AndyS

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Guus_Schreiber, GavinC, Sandro, TallTed (muted), Ivan, pfps, yvesr, AndyS

15:02:03 <Zakim> On IRC I see cgreer, pfps, gkellogg, markus, Zakim, RRSAgent, AndyS, gavinc, Guus, TallTed, SteveH, ivan, manu1, yvesr, manu, ericP, mischat, sandro, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see cgreer, pfps, gkellogg, markus, Zakim, RRSAgent, AndyS, gavinc, Guus, TallTed, SteveH, ivan, manu1, yvesr, manu, ericP, mischat, sandro, trackbot

15:02:14 <Zakim> +??P27

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P27

15:02:27 <gkellogg> zakim, ??P27 is me

Gregg Kellogg: zakim, ??P27 is me

15:02:27 <Zakim> +gkellogg; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +gkellogg; got it

15:02:30 <Zakim> +??P28

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P28

15:02:39 <SteveH> Zakim, ??P28 is me

Steve Harris: Zakim, ??P28 is me

15:02:40 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +SteveH; got it

15:02:59 <Zakim> +cgreer

Zakim IRC Bot: +cgreer

15:03:08 <Zakim> +Souri

Zakim IRC Bot: +Souri

15:03:10 <Zakim> +EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP

15:03:46 <Guus> chair: Guus
15:04:01 <ivan> scribenick: cgreer

(Scribe set to Charles Greer)

15:04:10 <Zakim> +PatH

Zakim IRC Bot: +PatH

15:05:04 <cgreer> topic: admin

1. admin

15:05:24 <cgreer> propsed: accept minutes of 24 April telecon

PROPOSED: accept minutes of 24 April telecon

15:05:32 <cgreer> s/propsed/proposed
15:05:38 <TallTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

15:05:38 <Zakim> TallTed should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: TallTed should no longer be muted

15:05:54 <cgreer> TallTed: The links in the minutes absorb trailing punctuation

Peter Patel-Schneider: The links in the minutes absorb trailing punctuation

15:06:06 <cgreer> ... the URI poster is somehow messed up

... the URI poster is somehow messed up

15:06:27 <TallTed> s/TallTed:/pfps:/
15:06:32 <cgreer> RESOLVED: to accept the minutes of the 24 April telecon

RESOLVED: to accept the minutes of the 24 April telecon

15:06:38 <TallTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

15:06:38 <Zakim> TallTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: TallTed should now be muted

15:06:45 <cgreer> subtopic: action items

1.1. action items

15:07:49 <cgreer> subtopic: Etiquette for responding on public-comments list

1.2. Etiquette for responding on public-comments list

15:07:50 <Zakim> +??P34

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P34

15:07:56 <markus> zakim, ??P34 is me

Markus Lanthaler: zakim, ??P34 is me

15:07:56 <Zakim> +markus; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +markus; got it

15:08:04 <cgreer> Guus: We must be polite and take comments seriously

Guus Schreiber: We must be polite and take comments seriously

15:08:13 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1

15:08:25 <TallTed> Zakim, who's here?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's here?

15:08:25 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus_Schreiber, GavinC, Sandro, TallTed (muted), Ivan, pfps, yvesr, AndyS, gkellogg, SteveH, cgreer, Souri, EricP, PatH, markus

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Guus_Schreiber, GavinC, Sandro, TallTed (muted), Ivan, pfps, yvesr, AndyS, gkellogg, SteveH, cgreer, Souri, EricP, PatH, markus

15:08:27 <Zakim> On IRC I see tbaker, PatH, Souri, cgreer, pfps, gkellogg, markus, Zakim, RRSAgent, AndyS, gavinc, Guus, TallTed, SteveH, ivan, manu1, yvesr, manu, ericP, mischat, sandro, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see tbaker, PatH, Souri, cgreer, pfps, gkellogg, markus, Zakim, RRSAgent, AndyS, gavinc, Guus, TallTed, SteveH, ivan, manu1, yvesr, manu, ericP, mischat, sandro, trackbot

15:08:28 <cgreer> ... we've got a lot of documents going out and keep this in our mind at this time

... we've got a lot of documents going out and keep this in our mind at this time

15:08:49 <cgreer> ... so keep in mind difference between public list and internal one

... so keep in mind difference between public list and internal one

15:09:00 <PatH> q+

Patrick Hayes: q+

15:09:19 <cgreer> ericP: Apropos of comments, I've been tracking them in the wiki, just on turtle.

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Apropos of comments, I've been tracking them in the wiki, just on turtle.

15:09:22 <ericP> -> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Turtle_Candidate_Recommendation_Comments turtle comments

Eric Prud'hommeaux: -> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Turtle_Candidate_Recommendation_Comments turtle comments

15:09:56 <cgreer> ... I'm looking for people to close issues.  The protocol is to put your name under the owner.

... I'm looking for people to close issues. The protocol is to put your name under the owner.

15:10:14 <cgreer> ... If you're taking ownership of comments, record owner and resolution please

... If you're taking ownership of comments, record owner and resolution please

15:11:21 <cgreer> PatH: I was wondering if there's been any behavior to prompt this comment

Patrick Hayes: I was wondering if there's been any behavior to prompt this comment

15:11:50 <cgreer> Guus: About RDF/JSON is what I was mainly referring to, but we'll discuss that when Manu is present.

Guus Schreiber: About RDF/JSON is what I was mainly referring to, but we'll discuss that when Manu is present.

15:11:56 <Zakim> -PatH

Zakim IRC Bot: -PatH

15:12:07 <Zakim> +zwu2

Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2

15:12:23 <cgreer> topic: Issues related to Concepts and Semantics
15:12:34 <Zakim> +PatH

Zakim IRC Bot: +PatH

15:12:44 <cgreer> subtopic: issue 118 Simplifying datatype semantics

2.1. ISSUE-118 Simplifying datatype semantics

15:13:01 <PatH> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013May/0012.html

Patrick Hayes: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013May/0012.html

15:13:52 <cgreer> PatH: The text here basically tries to avoid a semantic-y taint

Patrick Hayes: The text here basically tries to avoid a semantic-y taint

15:14:02 <cgreer> ... It instead speaks of IRIs and referents

... It instead speaks of IRIs and referents

15:14:23 <cgreer> ivan: Perfectly answers my comments

Ivan Herman: Perfectly answers my comments

15:14:24 <pfps> q+

Peter Patel-Schneider: q+

15:14:36 <Guus> ack PatH

Guus Schreiber: ack PatH

15:14:36 <PatH> q-

Patrick Hayes: q-

15:14:40 <cgreer> pfps: I'm trying to look up 'rigid identifier'

Peter Patel-Schneider: I'm trying to look up 'rigid identifier'

15:14:40 <Guus> ack pfps

Guus Schreiber: ack pfps

15:14:45 <cgreer> ... It's not in semantics yet.

... It's not in semantics yet.

15:14:51 <cgreer> PatH: Right, but it's in the proposed text

Patrick Hayes: Right, but it's in the proposed text

15:15:51 <cgreer> pfps: My concern -- if somebody uses an IRI for a datatype, it seems as though that 'fixes it for everyone'

Peter Patel-Schneider: My concern -- if somebody uses an IRI for a datatype, it seems as though that 'fixes it for everyone'

15:16:03 <cgreer> ... The change would be 'implementations that recognize datatype X'...

... The change would be 'implementations that recognize datatype X'...

15:16:31 <cgreer> PatH: I'll adapt, get rid of 'rigid identifier'

Patrick Hayes: I'll adapt, get rid of 'rigid identifier'

15:16:45 <cgreer> ... It's a red flag anyhow

... It's a red flag anyhow

15:16:56 <Zakim> +??P36

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P36

15:17:03 <pchampin> zakim, ??P36 is me

Pierre-Antoine Champin: zakim, ??P36 is me

15:17:03 <Zakim> +pchampin; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +pchampin; got it

15:17:56 <cgreer> PatH: I'll prepare something to vote on now

Patrick Hayes: I'll prepare something to vote on now

15:18:19 <cgreer> subtopic: RDF Merge in Semantics

2.2. RDF Merge in Semantics

15:19:13 <cgreer>  See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0139.html

See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0139.html

15:19:29 <Zakim> -EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: -EricP

15:19:34 <Zakim> +[GVoice]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[GVoice]

15:19:35 <cgreer> pfps: AZ has a point that other specs use 'merge' so it has to stick around in addition to 'union'

Peter Patel-Schneider: AZ has a point that other specs use 'merge' so it has to stick around in addition to 'union'

15:20:03 <cgreer> pfps: That's OK.   You keep the term around for those circumstances where you need to cope with blank nodes

Peter Patel-Schneider: That's OK. You keep the term around for those circumstances where you need to cope with blank nodes

15:20:50 <pfps> PROPOSED: add wording to Semantics to again define the merge of two RDF graphs

PROPOSED: add wording to Semantics to again define the merge of two RDF graphs

15:21:49 <sandro> pat: it was an editorial mistake which I will correct.   no need for group decision

Patrick Hayes: it was an editorial mistake which I will correct. no need for group decision [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:21:51 <sandro> guus: fine.

Guus Schreiber: fine. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:22:38 <cgreer> action to PatH: add wording to Semantics to again define the merge of two RDF graphs

action to PatH: add wording to Semantics to again define the merge of two RDF graphs

15:22:38 <trackbot> Error finding 'to'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/users>.

Trackbot IRC Bot: Error finding 'to'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/users>.

15:22:48 <Guus> ACTION PatH: add wording to Semantics to again define the merge of two RDF graphs

Guus Schreiber: ACTION PatH: add wording to Semantics to again define the merge of two RDF graphs

15:22:48 <trackbot> Created ACTION-261 - Add wording to Semantics to again define the merge of two RDF graphs [on Patrick Hayes - due 2013-05-08].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-261 - Add wording to Semantics to again define the merge of two RDF graphs [on Patrick Hayes - due 2013-05-08].

15:23:26 <cgreer> topic: Turtle

3. Turtle

15:24:00 <cgreer> gavinc: one of the possible outcomes of the problem is to remove XML and HTML from concepts.

Gavin Carothers: one of the possible outcomes of the problem is to remove XML and HTML from concepts.

15:24:09 <cgreer> ... the issue is DOM requirements

... the issue is DOM requirements

15:24:14 <yvesr> Zakim, who is noisy?

Yves Raimond: Zakim, who is noisy?

15:24:15 <ivan> zakim, who is noisy?

Ivan Herman: zakim, who is noisy?

15:24:25 <Zakim> yvesr, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ericP (29%), GavinC (33%), Guus_Schreiber (18%)

Zakim IRC Bot: yvesr, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ericP (29%), GavinC (33%), Guus_Schreiber (18%)

15:24:37 <Zakim> ivan, listening for 12 seconds I heard sound from the following: GavinC (83%), PatH (3%), Guus_Schreiber (21%)

Zakim IRC Bot: ivan, listening for 12 seconds I heard sound from the following: GavinC (83%), PatH (3%), Guus_Schreiber (21%)

15:24:51 <cgreer> gavinc: The HTML fragment parsing as it stands produces an HTML document.

Gavin Carothers: The HTML fragment parsing as it stands produces an HTML document.

15:25:07 <cgreer> ... There's a spec in progress for a fragment, but it's part of Web Components

... There's a spec in progress for a fragment, but it's part of Web Components

15:25:11 <cgreer> ... and it's still a WD

... and it's still a WD

15:25:24 <cgreer> ... for XML, we're referencing DOM4, not DOM3

... for XML, we're referencing DOM4, not DOM3

15:25:41 <cgreer> ... the question of 'can we reference DOM4' is resolved, but what about fragment parsing part of HTML

... the question of 'can we reference DOM4' is resolved, but what about fragment parsing part of HTML

15:26:00 <cgreer> sure it makes sense

sure it makes sense

15:26:12 <cgreer> Guus: What do we need to fix?

Guus Schreiber: What do we need to fix?

15:26:31 <cgreer> gavinc: The DOM4 vs. 3 is resolved.  The HTML issue is a little more complex

Gavin Carothers: The DOM4 vs. 3 is resolved. The HTML issue is a little more complex

15:26:34 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

15:26:42 <cgreer> ... The fragment parsing for HTML just ain't stable

... The fragment parsing for HTML just ain't stable

15:26:56 <Guus> ack ivan

Guus Schreiber: ack ivan

15:27:05 <cgreer> ivan: Why do you say referencing DOM4 is OK?

Ivan Herman: Why do you say referencing DOM4 is OK?

15:27:09 <cgreer> ... This is also a WD

... This is also a WD

15:27:22 <cgreer> ... I'm wondering whether we need DOM4.

... I'm wondering whether we need DOM4.

15:27:34 <cgreer> gavinc: THere are comparison methods in DOM3, but they are not implemented

Gavin Carothers: THere are comparison methods in DOM3, but they are not implemented

15:27:39 <gkellogg> You could reference the WHATWG version of DOM4.

Gregg Kellogg: You could reference the WHATWG version of DOM4.

15:27:57 <markus> was just about to propose the same :-)

Markus Lanthaler: was just about to propose the same :-)

15:28:02 <cgreer> gavinc: What's specified in DOM4, although it's a WD, there are implementations at least

Gavin Carothers: What's specified in DOM4, although it's a WD, there are implementations at least

15:28:05 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

15:28:07 <sandro> q+

Sandro Hawke: q+

15:28:35 <cgreer> ivan: We still don't know whether or not we can reference DOM4.  The other issue though...

Ivan Herman: We still don't know whether or not we can reference DOM4. The other issue though...

15:28:39 <Guus> ack sandro

Guus Schreiber: ack sandro

15:28:46 <cgreer> ... perhaps we can say that HTML datatype is not normative

... perhaps we can say that HTML datatype is not normative

15:29:00 <cgreer> gavinc: That gets around process problem, but doesn't help implementors

Gavin Carothers: That gets around process problem, but doesn't help implementors

15:29:19 <cgreer> ... I want to just make sure that implementors get HTML datatypes right

... I want to just make sure that implementors get HTML datatypes right

15:29:34 <cgreer> sandro: Let's put aside procedural problems.

Sandro Hawke: Let's put aside procedural problems.

15:30:01 <cgreer> ... So this comes up if somebody's writing an RDF system and somebody wants to match HTML datatypes, even if representations are different

... So this comes up if somebody's writing an RDF system and somebody wants to match HTML datatypes, even if representations are different

15:30:09 <cgreer> ... worst case is that they cannot do value comparisons

... worst case is that they cannot do value comparisons

15:30:22 <cgreer> gavinc: Either that or people expect HTML that you can actually use

Gavin Carothers: Either that or people expect HTML that you can actually use

15:30:31 <cgreer> ivan: Or equality in SPARQL, but it doesn't happen

Ivan Herman: Or equality in SPARQL, but it doesn't happen

15:30:36 <gkellogg> <P>foo == <p>foo</p>

Gregg Kellogg: <P>foo == <p>foo</p>

15:30:48 <cgreer> sandro: Because you're expecting normative ops, attribute order, whitespace, etc.

Sandro Hawke: Because you're expecting normative ops, attribute order, whitespace, etc.

15:31:08 <cgreer> gavinc: Or all-closed elements vs non-closing ones.

Gavin Carothers: Or all-closed elements vs non-closing ones.

15:31:25 <cgreer> sandro: As a programmer, I'd be happy if it matched, but we're not used to that as of yet

Sandro Hawke: As a programmer, I'd be happy if it matched, but we're not used to that as of yet

15:31:43 <cgreer> gavinc: every web browser will do the right thing here

Gavin Carothers: every web browser will do the right thing here

15:32:03 <cgreer> ... This does happen a lot

... This does happen a lot

15:32:12 <cgreer> sandro: But are you comparing HTML literals really?

Sandro Hawke: But are you comparing HTML literals really?

15:32:27 <cgreer> gavinc: But output HTML we expect to look the same, as an effect of parsing

Gavin Carothers: But output HTML we expect to look the same, as an effect of parsing

15:32:44 <cgreer> sandro: We can disagree about how important this is, but that people can get by without this

Sandro Hawke: We can disagree about how important this is, but that people can get by without this

15:32:55 <cgreer> gavinc: Value vs. literal for HTML (and XML)

Gavin Carothers: Value vs. literal for HTML (and XML)

15:33:11 <PatH> revized wording for issue 118 is now here, suitable for voting if voting is required:   http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013May/0014.html  . Just sayin.

Patrick Hayes: revized wording for ISSUE-118 is now here, suitable for voting if voting is required: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013May/0014.html . Just sayin.

15:33:12 <cgreer> sandro: Is this the only thing wrt HTML?

Sandro Hawke: Is this the only thing wrt HTML?

15:33:22 <cgreer> gavinc: Yes, that's it

Gavin Carothers: Yes, that's it

15:33:40 <cgreer> sandro: I'd be comfortable with our declaring that the HTML datatype value process is still not fully determined

Sandro Hawke: I'd be comfortable with our declaring that the HTML datatype value process is still not fully determined

15:34:01 <cgreer> ... and until that's settled, the datatype is a flag

... and until that's settled, the datatype is a flag

15:34:09 <cgreer> .. to expect further work in this area

.. to expect further work in this area

15:34:23 <cgreer> gavinc: And to point to where value processing is being worked out

Gavin Carothers: And to point to where value processing is being worked out

15:34:46 <cgreer> ... we want people to implement this, but also to point out that it's not final yet

... we want people to implement this, but also to point out that it's not final yet

15:35:05 <cgreer> sandro: Is it also a question about non-HTML syntax?

Sandro Hawke: Is it also a question about non-HTML syntax?

15:35:17 <cgreer> ... like a literal that's '<' but HTML datatyle

... like a literal that's '<' but HTML datatyle

15:35:25 <cgreer> gavinc: That's an ill-typed literal

Gavin Carothers: That's an ill-typed literal

15:35:34 <AndyS> Suggest we avoid test cases if we're outsourcing to DOM4/whatever for final definition as small details may change after we're finished..

Andy Seaborne: Suggest we avoid test cases if we're outsourcing to DOM4/whatever for final definition as small details may change after we're finished..

15:35:40 <cgreer> ... you have to be able to parse at least

... you have to be able to parse at least

15:35:41 <markus> wondering whether it wouldn't be better to rename rdf:HTML to rdf:HTML5...

Markus Lanthaler: wondering whether it wouldn't be better to rename rdf:HTML to rdf:HTML5...

15:35:51 <ericP> <p class="C" style="color:red;"/> == <p style="color:red;"  class="C"/>

Eric Prud'hommeaux: <p class="C" style="color:red;"/> == <p style="color:red;" class="C"/>

15:35:54 <ericP> <p class="C" style="color:red;"/> == <p style="color:red;"  class="C"/>?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: <p class="C" style="color:red;"/> == <p style="color:red;" class="C"/>?

15:36:09 <ericP> can we count on trivial equivalence?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: can we count on trivial equivalence?

15:36:12 <gavinc> yeah, stuff like that ericP

Gavin Carothers: yeah, stuff like that ericP

15:36:22 <cgreer> sandro: I'm proposing that we look for an older HTML that is meaningful for this?

Sandro Hawke: I'm proposing that we look for an older HTML that is meaningful for this?

15:36:23 <Guus> q?

Guus Schreiber: q?

15:36:41 <cgreer> gavinc: There's no standard anywhere about HTML fragments

Gavin Carothers: There's no standard anywhere about HTML fragments

15:36:57 <cgreer> ivan: And we can't refer to an older one.

Ivan Herman: And we can't refer to an older one.

15:37:14 <cgreer> gavinc: older HTMLs also didn't deal with fragment parsing

Gavin Carothers: older HTMLs also didn't deal with fragment parsing

15:37:28 <cgreer> sandro: My point is that we don't specify which HTML

Sandro Hawke: My point is that we don't specify which HTML

15:37:39 <markus> good point

Markus Lanthaler: good point

15:37:45 <yvesr> +1

Yves Raimond: +1

15:37:58 <PatH> q+

Patrick Hayes: q+

15:38:27 <cgreer> PatH: This does seem as though we're doing something too wishy-washy with THML

Patrick Hayes: This does seem as though we're doing something too wishy-washy with HTML

15:38:30 <cgreer> s/THML/HTML
15:38:59 <cgreer> gavinc: the idea is to dodge the lexical-value mapping for HTML

Gavin Carothers: the idea is to dodge the lexical-value mapping for HTML

15:39:05 <cgreer> PatH: Which violates our spec

Patrick Hayes: Which violates our spec

15:39:14 <cgreer> ivan: I don't see another choice.

Ivan Herman: I don't see another choice.

15:39:26 <markus> q+

Markus Lanthaler: q+

15:39:31 <cgreer> ... We could wait a couple of years to finalize RDF but that's not an option either

... We could wait a couple of years to finalize RDF but that's not an option either

15:39:32 <Guus> ack PatH

Guus Schreiber: ack PatH

15:39:34 <sandro> PROPOSAL: we're specifying rdf:HTML deferring the semantics (lexical-to-value mapping) to whatever is latest/greatest HTML standard.   This only comes up for people trying to do D-Entailment on rdf:HTML literals --- determining equality of value, and checking for ill-typed.

PROPOSED: we're specifying rdf:HTML deferring the semantics (lexical-to-value mapping) to whatever is latest/greatest HTML standard. This only comes up for people trying to do D-Entailment on rdf:HTML literals --- determining equality of value, and checking for ill-typed.

15:39:54 <cgreer> sandro: This is so complex .. the basic idea has been stable, but little bits keep changing

Sandro Hawke: This is so complex .. the basic idea has been stable, but little bits keep changing

15:40:06 <cgreer> PatH: But we didn't have HTML before.

Patrick Hayes: But we didn't have HTML before.

15:40:17 <Guus> ack markus

Guus Schreiber: ack markus

15:40:20 <cgreer> ivan: Now we have HTML which is not XML.  It's much more common now

Ivan Herman: Now we have HTML which is not XML. It's much more common now

15:40:31 <cgreer> markus: Why do we need to normalize HTML at all?

Markus Lanthaler: Why do we need to normalize HTML at all?

15:40:41 <gavinc> Not normalizing! Just parsing

Gavin Carothers: Not normalizing! Just parsing

15:40:44 <cgreer> ... we could just use string comparison

... we could just use string comparison

15:40:54 <cgreer> ... isn't that viable?

... isn't that viable?

15:41:15 <cgreer> ivan: In practice that would be difficult.

Ivan Herman: In practice that would be difficult.

15:41:39 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?

Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is talking?

15:41:40 <cgreer> ... same issue in XML.  XML literals rely on XML tools

... same issue in XML. XML literals rely on XML tools

15:41:50 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds

Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds

15:41:52 <cgreer> ... and the tools can produce a different literal

... and the tools can produce a different literal

15:41:57 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?

Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is talking?

15:42:07 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: markus (83%)

Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: markus (83%)

15:42:13 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?

Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is talking?

15:42:13 <cgreer> markus: but you can't have interoperability in this case.

Markus Lanthaler: but you can't have interoperability in this case.

15:42:20 <gavinc> eh, 3 or 4 months ;)

Gavin Carothers: eh, 3 or 4 months ;)

15:42:23 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: PatH (14%), Ivan (35%), markus (54%)

Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: PatH (14%), Ivan (35%), markus (54%)

15:42:27 <cgreer> ivan: out hope is that in two years HTML5 WG will finalize

Ivan Herman: out hope is that in two years HTML5 WG will finalize

15:42:28 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?

Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is talking?

15:42:38 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: PatH (5%), Guus_Schreiber (9%), markus (60%)

Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: PatH (5%), Guus_Schreiber (9%), markus (60%)

15:42:45 <cgreer> markus: Then HTML6 will come

Markus Lanthaler: Then HTML6 will come

15:42:56 <cgreer> gavinc: To be clear we're talking about fragment parsing algorithm, not HTML5

Gavin Carothers: To be clear we're talking about fragment parsing algorithm, not HTML5

15:43:11 <cgreer> ... this is weirder than you think it is

... this is weirder than you think it is

15:43:16 <pfps> q+

Peter Patel-Schneider: q+

15:43:18 <PatH> we are tslking about this: http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf11-concepts/#section-html

Patrick Hayes: we are tslking about this: http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf11-concepts/#section-html

15:43:30 <cgreer> sandro: How about two data types.  HTML-String and parsed-HTML-string

Sandro Hawke: How about two data types. HTML-String and parsed-HTML-string

15:43:35 <Guus> ack pfps

Guus Schreiber: ack pfps

15:43:37 <cgreer> ... we can't define the latter yet

... we can't define the latter yet

15:43:53 <cgreer> pfps: I've seen a solution to this in Schema-datatypes

Peter Patel-Schneider: I've seen a solution to this in Schema-datatypes

15:44:02 <cgreer> ... to be compliant you can either use XML 1.0 or XML 1.1

... to be compliant you can either use XML 1.0 or XML 1.1

15:44:12 <gkellogg> q+

Gregg Kellogg: q+

15:44:13 <cgreer> ... which was written when 1.1 was in flux

... which was written when 1.1 was in flux

15:44:32 <cgreer> sandro: It's a bit analogous to our dependency on Unicode

Sandro Hawke: It's a bit analogous to our dependency on Unicode

15:44:46 <cgreer> ericP: But the contract with Unicode is that there will be no new punctuation

Eric Prud'hommeaux: But the contract with Unicode is that there will be no new punctuation

15:44:55 <cgreer> gavinc: and HTML's main goal is backwards compat

Gavin Carothers: and HTML's main goal is backwards compat

15:45:07 <Guus> ack gkellogg

Guus Schreiber: ack gkellogg

15:45:24 <cgreer> ericP: HTML doesnt provide for forward compat

Eric Prud'hommeaux: HTML doesnt provide for forward compat

15:45:50 <cgreer> gkellogg: Perhaps we can require that implemenations provide equality based on string comparison, but have an option to change in future

Gregg Kellogg: Perhaps we can require that implemenations provide equality based on string comparison, but have an option to change in future

15:46:01 <cgreer> sandro: The question is what if we do use D-entailment

Sandro Hawke: The question is what if we do use D-entailment

15:46:11 <gavinc> Yeah, we WANT people to do lexical-to-value mapping

Gavin Carothers: Yeah, we WANT people to do lexical-to-value mapping

15:46:19 <cgreer> ... we want people not to have to remember the string

... we want people not to have to remember the string

15:46:26 <cgreer> ... the string is gone if you parse

... the string is gone if you parse

15:46:39 <cgreer> ... sounds like we need two datatypes, the second one will change

... sounds like we need two datatypes, the second one will change

15:46:50 <cgreer> gavinc: The one that doesn't map to a value doesn't have a datatype

Gavin Carothers: The one that doesn't map to a value doesn't have a datatype

15:47:13 <cgreer> PatH: It's its own value space

Patrick Hayes: It's its own value space

15:47:20 <cgreer> sandro: The value space is 'string'

Sandro Hawke: The value space is 'string'

15:47:28 <cgreer> gavinc: This reads funny.  lexical space and value space are the same

Gavin Carothers: This reads funny. lexical space and value space are the same

15:47:34 <cgreer> sandro: yep it's string with a flag

Sandro Hawke: yep it's string with a flag

15:47:58 <cgreer> gavinc: I'm amused

Gavin Carothers: I'm amused

15:48:12 <cgreer> sandro: I need to know about the flag.

Sandro Hawke: I need to know about the flag.

15:48:22 <cgreer> gavinc: Would then HTML entities be equivalient to same string?

Gavin Carothers: Would then HTML entities be equivalient to same string?

15:48:31 <cgreer> ... would seem to be no

... would seem to be no

15:48:56 <cgreer> ivan: I'd me more comfortable keeping what we have now, plus a little hand waving

Ivan Herman: I'd me more comfortable keeping what we have now, plus a little hand waving

15:49:31 <sandro> STRAWPOLL:    (1)    two html datatypes, parsed and unparsed;    (2) one html datatype, semantics not set yet,    (3) something else

STRAWPOLL: (1) two html datatypes, parsed and unparsed; (2) one html datatype, semantics not set yet, (3) something else

15:49:43 <sandro> 1 2

Sandro Hawke: 1 2

15:50:04 <ivan> 2

Ivan Herman: 2

15:50:05 <PatH> tnx ivan

Patrick Hayes: tnx ivan

15:50:05 <Guus> pref 2, can live with 1

Guus Schreiber: pref 2, can live with 1

15:50:05 <cgreer> I prefer 2

I prefer 2

15:50:05 <gavinc> 2 (lexical to value mapping to be defined later)

Gavin Carothers: 2 (lexical to value mapping to be defined later)

15:50:05 <gkellogg> 2

Gregg Kellogg: 2

15:50:06 <AndyS> 2

Andy Seaborne: 2

15:50:06 <pchampin> 2

Pierre-Antoine Champin: 2

15:50:08 <ericP> live with 1, prefer 2

Eric Prud'hommeaux: live with 1, prefer 2

15:50:08 <yvesr> 2

Yves Raimond: 2

15:50:10 <SteveH> 2

Steve Harris: 2

15:50:12 <zwu2> 2

Zhe Wu: 2

15:50:20 <TallTed> prefer 2, OK with 1

Ted Thibodeau: prefer 2, OK with 1

15:50:27 <markus> 1 2 (would prefer to just have unparsed)

Markus Lanthaler: 1 2 (would prefer to just have unparsed)

15:50:33 <PatH> 3

Patrick Hayes: 3

15:50:34 <Souri> 2

Souripriya Das: 2

15:50:59 <gavinc> +1 PatH

Gavin Carothers: +1 PatH

15:51:03 <cgreer> PatH: 'something else' is that we should be explicit about defining but that it's changeable

Patrick Hayes: 'something else' is that we should be explicit about defining but that it's changeable

15:51:11 <cgreer> ivan: That's what I meant by 2

Ivan Herman: That's what I meant by 2

15:51:31 <cgreer> ... we make it clear that it's a soft target

... we make it clear that it's a soft target

15:51:34 <sandro> PROPOSAL: we'll specifying rdf:HTML by deferring the semantics (lexical-to-value mapping) to whatever is latest/greatest HTML standard.   This only comes up for people trying to do D-Entailment on rdf:HTML literals --- determining equality of value, and checking for ill-typed.

PROPOSED: we'll specifying rdf:HTML by deferring the semantics (lexical-to-value mapping) to whatever is latest/greatest HTML standard. This only comes up for people trying to do D-Entailment on rdf:HTML literals --- determining equality of value, and checking for ill-typed.

15:52:37 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1

15:52:40 <ivan> +1

Ivan Herman: +1

15:52:44 <yvesr> +1

Yves Raimond: +1

15:52:46 <PatH> +1

Patrick Hayes: +1

15:52:48 <zwu2> +0

Zhe Wu: +0

15:52:48 <cgreer> +1

+1

15:52:48 <gavinc> +1

Gavin Carothers: +1

15:52:49 <TallTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

15:52:53 <sandro> guus: it's editorial how much of this we say this now.

Guus Schreiber: it's editorial how much of this we say this now. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:52:56 <Souri> +1

Souripriya Das: +1

15:53:31 <sandro> RESOLVED: close issue-63:  we'll specifying rdf:HTML by deferring the semantics (lexical-to-value mapping) to whatever is latest/greatest HTML standard.   This only comes up for people trying to do D-Entailment on rdf:HTML literals --- determining equality of value, and checking for ill-typed.

RESOLVED: close ISSUE-63: we'll specifying rdf:HTML by deferring the semantics (lexical-to-value mapping) to whatever is latest/greatest HTML standard. This only comes up for people trying to do D-Entailment on rdf:HTML literals --- determining equality of value, and checking for ill-typed.

15:53:53 <sandro> (or it was already closed, but tag this as related to issue-63)

Sandro Hawke: (or it was already closed, but tag this as related to ISSUE-63)

15:54:21 <PatH> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013May/0014.html

Patrick Hayes: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013May/0014.html

15:54:23 <cgreer> subtopic: back to issue 118

3.1. back to ISSUE-118

15:54:36 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

15:55:22 <Guus> PROPSED: to resolve ISSUE-118 according to Pat's proposal in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013May/0014.html

PROPOSED: to resolve ISSUE-118 according to Pat's proposal in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013May/0014.html

15:55:47 <ericP> what's the interpretation of { <s> <p> """<script type="text/turtle"><s><p2><o2></script>"""rdf:HTMLLiteral . } ?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: what's the interpretation of { <s> <p> """<script type="text/turtle"><s><p2><o2></script>"""rdf:HTMLLiteral . } ?

15:55:50 <ivan> +1

Ivan Herman: +1

15:55:51 <pfps> +1

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1

15:55:52 <ericP> 8.3

Eric Prud'hommeaux: 8.3

15:55:53 <PatH> +1

Patrick Hayes: +1

15:55:53 <gkellogg> +1

Gregg Kellogg: +1

15:55:56 <TallTed> s/PROPSED/PROPOSED/
15:55:57 <TallTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

15:55:58 <zwu2> +1

Zhe Wu: +1

15:56:00 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1

15:56:00 <pchampin> +1

Pierre-Antoine Champin: +1

15:56:04 <yvesr> +1

Yves Raimond: +1

15:56:05 <markus> +1

Markus Lanthaler: +1

15:56:09 <cgreer> +1

+1

15:56:22 <Guus> RESOLVED: to resolve ISSUE-118 according to Pat's proposal in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013May/0014.html [17:55] <cgreer> hahah

RESOLVED: to resolve ISSUE-118 according to Pat's proposal in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013May/0014.html [17:55] <cgreer> hahah

15:57:05 <cgreer> Guus: We're done with concepts and semantics.

Guus Schreiber: We're done with concepts and semantics.

15:57:06 <PatH> woot

Patrick Hayes: woot

15:57:34 <sandro> eric, that graph means that s has a p which is the html text "<script type="text/turtle"><s><p2><o2></script>".

Sandro Hawke: eric, that graph means that s has a p which is the html text "<script type="text/turtle"><s><p2><o2></script>".

15:57:37 <cgreer> Guus: Two minuts for JSON-LD and Turtle

Guus Schreiber: Two minutes for JSON-LD and Turtle

15:57:41 <cgreer> s/minuts/minutes/
15:57:57 <cgreer> Guus: How about that turtle test suite?

Guus Schreiber: How about that turtle test suite?

15:58:03 <cgreer> gavinc: blocked by feature at risk

Gavin Carothers: blocked by feature at risk

15:58:11 <cgreer> ericP: Also 0 in literals

Eric Prud'hommeaux: Also 0 in literals

15:58:20 <cgreer> gavinc: That's fine in test cases

Gavin Carothers: That's fine in test cases

15:58:34 <cgreer> ... we should datatype them something else if they're not strings

... we should datatype them something else if they're not strings

15:59:01 <cgreer> gavinc: I started the action for feature at risk.

Gavin Carothers: I started the action for feature at risk.

15:59:03 <sandro> +1 have some test cases on  "\0"^^<example.org/something>

Sandro Hawke: +1 have some test cases on "\0"^^<example.org/something>

15:59:20 <cgreer> ... lots of 'meh' on prefixes

... lots of 'meh' on prefixes

15:59:26 <cgreer> ... and some who don't like it

... and some who don't like it

15:59:38 <cgreer> Guus: please complete action by next week

Guus Schreiber: please complete action by next week

15:59:47 <cgreer> sandro: is everything on comments page?

Sandro Hawke: is everything on comments page?

15:59:53 <markus> just realized that JSON-LD LC ends next week

Markus Lanthaler: just realized that JSON-LD LC ends next week

15:59:57 <cgreer> gavinc: yes, no positive ones, just two negative ones.

Gavin Carothers: yes, no positive ones, just two negative ones.

16:00:10 <PatH> gotta run.  bye.

Patrick Hayes: gotta run. bye.

16:00:14 <Zakim> -PatH

Zakim IRC Bot: -PatH

16:00:20 <cgreer> ... strongest argument is that we've not changed turtle except this

... strongest argument is that we've not changed turtle except this

16:00:28 <cgreer> sandro: but that's not true

Sandro Hawke: but that's not true

16:00:28 <ericP> i would characterize DBooth's response to those comments as positive

Eric Prud'hommeaux: i would characterize DBooth's response to those comments as positive

16:00:34 <cgreer> Guus: but we are done for this week.

Guus Schreiber: but we are done for this week.

16:00:47 <Zakim> -Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan

16:00:49 <Zakim> -gkellogg

Zakim IRC Bot: -gkellogg

16:00:49 <Zakim> -Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro

16:00:50 <Zakim> -yvesr

Zakim IRC Bot: -yvesr

16:00:50 <Zakim> -TallTed

Zakim IRC Bot: -TallTed

16:00:51 <Zakim> -markus

Zakim IRC Bot: -markus

16:00:53 <Zakim> -ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: -ericP

16:00:54 <Zakim> -cgreer

Zakim IRC Bot: -cgreer

16:00:54 <Zakim> -SteveH

Zakim IRC Bot: -SteveH

16:00:54 <Zakim> -zwu2

Zakim IRC Bot: -zwu2

16:00:57 <Zakim> -GavinC

Zakim IRC Bot: -GavinC

16:00:57 <Zakim> -Souri

Zakim IRC Bot: -Souri

16:01:00 <Zakim> -AndyS

Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS

16:01:07 <Zakim> -pchampin

Zakim IRC Bot: -pchampin

16:01:09 <Guus> trackbot, end meeting

Guus Schreiber: trackbot, end meeting

16:01:09 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees

16:01:09 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Guus_Schreiber, GavinC, Sandro, TallTed, Ivan, pfps, AndyS, yvesr, gkellogg, SteveH, cgreer, Souri, EricP, PatH, markus, zwu2, pchampin

Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been Guus_Schreiber, GavinC, Sandro, TallTed, Ivan, pfps, AndyS, yvesr, gkellogg, SteveH, cgreer, Souri, EricP, PatH, markus, zwu2, pchampin

16:01:17 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes

16:01:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/01-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/01-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot

16:01:18 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye

16:01:18 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/05/01-rdf-wg-actions.rdf :

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/05/01-rdf-wg-actions.rdf :

16:01:18 <RRSAgent> ACTION: PatH to add wording to Semantics to again define the merge of two RDF graphs [1]

ACTION: PatH to add wording to Semantics to again define the merge of two RDF graphs [1]

16:01:18 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/05/01-rdf-wg-irc#T15-22-48

RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/05/01-rdf-wg-irc#T15-22-48



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