15:59:16 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/02/06-rdf-wg-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/02/06-rdf-wg-irc ←
15:59:26 <davidwood> Zakim, this will be RDF
David Wood: Zakim, this will be RDF ←
15:59:26 <Zakim> ok, davidwood, I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM already started
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, davidwood, I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM already started ←
15:59:34 <davidwood> Chair: David Wood
15:59:45 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
David Wood: Zakim, who is here? ←
15:59:46 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller], GavinC, bhyland
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see [IPcaller], GavinC, bhyland ←
15:59:47 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, tbaker, Guus, gavinc, AndyS, TallTed, ivan, cygri, davidwood, gkellogg, trackbot, mischat, manu1, yvesr, manu, sandro, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, tbaker, Guus, gavinc, AndyS, TallTed, ivan, cygri, davidwood, gkellogg, trackbot, mischat, manu1, yvesr, manu, sandro, ericP ←
15:59:54 <Zakim> +[OpenLink]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[OpenLink] ←
15:59:55 <tbaker> zakim, IPcaller is tbaker
Thomas Baker: zakim, IPcaller is tbaker ←
15:59:55 <davidwood> Zakim, bhyland is me
David Wood: Zakim, bhyland is me ←
15:59:55 <Zakim> +tbaker; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +tbaker; got it ←
15:59:55 <Zakim> +davidwood; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +davidwood; got it ←
16:00:12 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip ←
16:00:12 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made ←
16:00:12 <TallTed> TallTed has changed the topic to: RDF WG - http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/ - current agenda http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.02.06
Ted Thibodeau: TallTed has changed the topic to: RDF WG - http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/ - current agenda http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2013.02.06 ←
16:00:13 <Zakim> +Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan ←
16:00:14 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
16:00:21 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, IPCaller is me ←
16:00:21 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it ←
16:00:37 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
David Wood: Zakim, who is here? ←
16:00:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see tbaker, GavinC, davidwood, [OpenLink], AndyS, Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see tbaker, GavinC, davidwood, [OpenLink], AndyS, Ivan ←
16:00:38 <Zakim> On IRC I see gavinc, RRSAgent, Zakim, tbaker, Guus, AndyS, TallTed, ivan, cygri, davidwood, gkellogg, trackbot, mischat, manu1, yvesr, manu, sandro, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see gavinc, RRSAgent, Zakim, tbaker, Guus, AndyS, TallTed, ivan, cygri, davidwood, gkellogg, trackbot, mischat, manu1, yvesr, manu, sandro, ericP ←
16:01:11 <TallTed> Zakim, [OpenLink] is temporarily me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, [OpenLink] is temporarily me ←
16:01:11 <Zakim> +TallTed; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +TallTed; got it ←
16:01:32 <Zakim> +??P11
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P11 ←
16:01:46 <gkellogg> zakim, I am ??P11
Gregg Kellogg: zakim, I am ??P11 ←
16:01:46 <Zakim> +gkellogg; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +gkellogg; got it ←
16:01:47 <Zakim> +Guus
Zakim IRC Bot: +Guus ←
16:02:07 <Guus> zakim, mute me
Guus Schreiber: zakim, mute me ←
16:02:08 <Zakim> Guus should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Guus should now be muted ←
16:02:13 <tbaker> Scribe: tbaker
(Scribe set to Thomas Baker)
16:02:17 <tbaker> scribenick: tbaker
16:02:29 <Zakim> + +1.603.438.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.603.438.aaaa ←
16:02:46 <Zakim> +Souri
Zakim IRC Bot: +Souri ←
16:02:49 <tbaker> davidwood: Out of charter, but will continue to discuss anyway.
David Wood: Out of charter, but will continue to discuss anyway. ←
16:02:52 <tbaker> topic: Admin
16:02:55 <davidwood> PROPOSED: to accept the minutes of the 30 January telecon: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2013-01-30
PROPOSED: to accept the minutes of the 30 January telecon: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2013-01-30 ←
16:03:09 <Zakim> +??P26
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P26 ←
16:03:13 <Zakim> +Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro ←
16:03:16 <markus> zakim, ??P26 is me
Markus Lanthaler: zakim, ??P26 is me ←
16:03:16 <Zakim> +markus; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +markus; got it ←
16:03:18 <Zakim> +??P32
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P32 ←
16:03:20 <Zakim> +Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: +Arnaud ←
16:03:21 <tbaker> RESOLVED: To accept the minutes of the 30 January telecon: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2013-01-30
RESOLVED: To accept the minutes of the 30 January telecon: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2013-01-30 ←
16:03:25 <TallTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
16:03:30 <pchampin> zakim, ??P32 is me
Pierre-Antoine Champin: zakim, ??P32 is me ←
16:03:31 <Zakim> +pchampin; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +pchampin; got it ←
16:03:35 <tbaker> Topic: Review of action items
16:03:39 <Zakim> +cygri
Zakim IRC Bot: +cygri ←
16:03:45 <Arnaud> zakim, mute me
Arnaud Le Hors: zakim, mute me ←
16:03:46 <Zakim> Arnaud should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Arnaud should now be muted ←
16:04:13 <tbaker> davidwood: Moving on...
David Wood: Moving on... ←
16:04:14 <gavinc> hey! yay I have no actions
Gavin Carothers: hey! yay I have no actions ←
16:04:21 <tbaker> Topic: Extension Request
16:04:28 <tbaker> davidwood: extension request?
David Wood: extension request? ←
16:04:35 <tbaker> ivan: no - sent to Thomas?
Ivan Herman: no - sent to Thomas? ←
16:04:42 <Zakim> +??P19
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P19 ←
16:04:44 <manu> zakim, I am ??P19
Manu Sporny: zakim, I am ??P19 ←
16:04:45 <Zakim> +manu; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +manu; got it ←
16:04:58 <tbaker> ... Whatever we put together has to be sent to Thomas - suggest we do that now.
... Whatever we put together has to be sent to Thomas - suggest we do that now. ←
16:05:11 <tbaker> ... Has to be in their hands a few days before meeting.
... Has to be in their hands a few days before meeting. ←
16:05:12 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[GVoice] ←
16:05:13 <Zakim> +Tony
Zakim IRC Bot: +Tony ←
16:05:17 <ericP> Zakim, [GVoice] is me
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, [GVoice] is me ←
16:05:17 <Zakim> +ericP; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +ericP; got it ←
16:05:20 <tbaker> davidwood: will sent now
David Wood: will sent now ←
16:05:28 <ScottB> Zakim, Tony is temporarily me
Scott Bauer: Zakim, Tony is temporarily me ←
16:05:28 <Zakim> +ScottB; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +ScottB; got it ←
16:05:29 <tbaker> ivan: will be on agenda next Wednesday.
Ivan Herman: will be on agenda next Wednesday. ←
16:06:38 <tbaker> ... only problem: I will not be able to join W3M meeting next week - maybe Sandro?
... only problem: I will not be able to join W3M meeting next week - maybe Sandro? ←
16:07:05 <zwu2> thanks Thomas for taking over scribe!
Zhe Wu: thanks Thomas for taking over scribe! ←
16:07:07 <tbaker> Sandro: Might be able to make call (on vacation).
Sandro Hawke: Might be able to make call (on vacation). ←
16:07:28 <tbaker> Ivan: As chair you could attend if you discuss with Thomas.
Ivan Herman: As chair you could attend if you discuss with Thomas. ←
16:07:46 <tbaker> Davidwood: Guus?
David Wood: Guus? ←
16:07:47 <Guus> zakim, unmute me
Guus Schreiber: zakim, unmute me ←
16:07:47 <Zakim> Guus should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Guus should no longer be muted ←
16:08:01 <ericP> gavinc, all, we have another Turtle issue
Eric Prud'hommeaux: gavinc, all, we have another Turtle issue ←
16:08:42 <ericP> -> http://www.w3.org/mid/E61A2BEE-ABB5-4273-959E-AC8E913D0E6B@ugent.be Are documents with uppercase language tags valid Turtle?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: -> http://www.w3.org/mid/E61A2BEE-ABB5-4273-959E-AC8E913D0E6B@ugent.be Are documents with uppercase language tags valid Turtle? ←
16:09:02 <ericP> i wonder if this is worth a mad scramble before we go to CR
Eric Prud'hommeaux: i wonder if this is worth a mad scramble before we go to CR ←
16:09:12 <ericP> (so we don't get sent back to LC)
Eric Prud'hommeaux: (so we don't get sent back to LC) ←
16:09:15 <tbaker> Davidwood or Guus could attend - writing to Thomas.
Davidwood or Guus could attend - writing to Thomas. ←
16:09:16 <gavinc> That's NOT new.
Gavin Carothers: That's NOT new. ←
16:09:45 <ericP> ok, so is it a listed issue?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ok, so is it a listed issue? ←
16:09:59 <tbaker> @zwu2 should I just continue to scribe today? Willing to do.
@zwu2 should I just continue to scribe today? Willing to do. ←
16:10:06 <gavinc> We talked about it before... let me see if there's an issue that covers it.
Gavin Carothers: We talked about it before... let me see if there's an issue that covers it. ←
16:10:15 <gavinc> There were comments about it that we responded to already
Gavin Carothers: There were comments about it that we responded to already ←
16:10:20 <tbaker> Topic: Concepts
16:10:47 <zwu2> tbaker, please do. I will switch with you next time you scribe
Zhe Wu: tbaker, please do. I will switch with you next time you scribe ←
16:10:50 <davidwood> ISSUE-105?
16:10:50 <trackbot> ISSUE-105 -- Graphs, datasets, authoritative representations, and content negotiation -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-105 -- Graphs, datasets, authoritative representations, and content negotiation -- open ←
16:10:50 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/105
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/105 ←
16:11:11 <tbaker> cygri: Issue ISSUE-105 re: relationships of graphs and datasets - web arch - content negotiation.
Richard Cyganiak: Issue ISSUE-105 re: relationships of graphs and datasets - web arch - content negotiation. ←
16:11:42 <tbaker> ... X same as Trig file published with default graph?
... X same as Trig file published with default graph? ←
16:11:54 <tbaker> davidwood: Cross-over with issue ISSUE-107 re: identity of graph.
David Wood: Cross-over with issue ISSUE-107 re: identity of graph. ←
16:12:17 <tbaker> cygri: haven't followed blank nodes discussion - unsure.
Richard Cyganiak: haven't followed blank nodes discussion - unsure. ←
16:12:44 <tbaker> davidwood: late in process to be introducing blank nodes as graph names
David Wood: late in process to be introducing blank nodes as graph names ←
16:13:01 <ericP> Which issue re: bnode ?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Which issue re: bnode ? ←
16:13:09 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
David Wood: Zakim, who is here? ←
16:13:09 <Zakim> On the phone I see tbaker, GavinC, davidwood, TallTed, AndyS, Ivan, gkellogg, Guus, +1.603.438.aaaa, Souri, markus, Sandro, Arnaud (muted), pchampin, cygri, manu, ericP, ScottB
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see tbaker, GavinC, davidwood, TallTed, AndyS, Ivan, gkellogg, Guus, +1.603.438.aaaa, Souri, markus, Sandro, Arnaud (muted), pchampin, cygri, manu, ericP, ScottB ←
16:13:12 <tbaker> cygri: that issue is not related to ISSUE-105 or ISSUE-107, but new - reluctant to merge into an existing issue.
Richard Cyganiak: that issue is not related to ISSUE-105 or ISSUE-107, but new - reluctant to merge into an existing issue. ←
16:13:12 <Zakim> On IRC I see zwu2, ScottB, Souri, pchampin, markus, Arnaud, gavinc, RRSAgent, Zakim, tbaker, Guus, AndyS, TallTed, ivan, cygri, davidwood, gkellogg, trackbot, mischat, manu1,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see zwu2, ScottB, Souri, pchampin, markus, Arnaud, gavinc, RRSAgent, Zakim, tbaker, Guus, AndyS, TallTed, ivan, cygri, davidwood, gkellogg, trackbot, mischat, manu1, ←
16:13:12 <Zakim> ... yvesr, manu, sandro, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: ... yvesr, manu, sandro, ericP ←
16:13:22 <zwu2> zakim, +1.603.438.aaaa is me
Zhe Wu: zakim, +1.603.438.aaaa is me ←
16:13:22 <Zakim> +zwu2; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2; got it ←
16:13:39 <Guus> zakim, mute me
Guus Schreiber: zakim, mute me ←
16:13:39 <Zakim> Guus should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Guus should now be muted ←
16:13:46 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
16:13:57 <manu> q+ to try to show a way forward.
Manu Sporny: q+ to try to show a way forward. ←
16:14:01 <davidwood> ack ivan
David Wood: ack ivan ←
16:14:03 <tbaker> davidwood: as I read it, if Manu's position becomes WG's position, would change our relation to ISSUE-105 and ISSUE-107, but reluctant to make such a radical change in our conception of datasets and graphs in Feb 2013
David Wood: as I read it, if Manu's position becomes WG's position, would change our relation to ISSUE-105 and ISSUE-107, but reluctant to make such a radical change in our conception of datasets and graphs in Feb 2013 ←
16:14:47 <gavinc> A TriG file served as a Turtle file won't parse as Turtle.
Gavin Carothers: A TriG file served as a Turtle file won't parse as Turtle. ←
16:14:48 <tbaker> ivan: do not think these two things are related. Issue initiated by JSON-LD - what happens if I have a Trig file with only default graph, served as Turtle
Ivan Herman: do not think these two things are related. Issue initiated by JSON-LD - what happens if I have a Trig file with only default graph, served as Turtle ←
16:14:50 <davidwood> ack manu
David Wood: ack manu ←
16:14:50 <Zakim> manu, you wanted to try to show a way forward.
Zakim IRC Bot: manu, you wanted to try to show a way forward. ←
16:15:17 <tbaker> Manu: did not want to destabilize group with B-Node identifiers issue
Manu Sporny: did not want to destabilize group with B-Node identifiers issue ←
16:15:33 <tbaker> Ivan: Richard says ISSUE-105 has nothing to do with that, and I agree
Ivan Herman: Richard says ISSUE-105 has nothing to do with that, and I agree ←
16:15:48 <tbaker> ???: Issue is which graph do you use.
Gregg Kellogg: Issue is which graph do you use. ←
16:16:19 <tbaker> cygri: Say nothing? Apples and oranges?
Richard Cyganiak: Say nothing? Apples and oranges? ←
16:16:43 <gkellogg> s/???/gkellogg/
16:16:45 <tbaker> davidwood: If we say nothing, door is open for all groups to solve in different ways.
David Wood: If we say nothing, door is open for all groups to solve in different ways. ←
16:17:07 <tbaker> cygri: so we should say something, not necessarily strong and normative. Concepts is logical place to look for guidance.
Richard Cyganiak: so we should say something, not necessarily strong and normative. Concepts is logical place to look for guidance. ←
16:17:23 <manu> Yes, that's the risk I'm trying to outline... JSON-LD is having to deal with it now, RDFa will in the future... so will NQuads (due to RDF Dataset Normalization Algorithm spec)
Manu Sporny: Yes, that's the risk I'm trying to outline... JSON-LD is having to deal with it now, RDFa will in the future... so will NQuads (due to RDF Dataset Normalization Algorithm spec) ←
16:17:30 <tbaker> ... If Concepts says something, pressure for future WGs to stay coherent.
... If Concepts says something, pressure for future WGs to stay coherent. ←
16:17:43 <tbaker> davidwood: Agree Concepts is logical place.
David Wood: Agree Concepts is logical place. ←
16:18:22 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
16:18:24 <tbaker> cygri: Impression that we have not heard really sound technical arguments for possible choices. Preferences, but not discussion of technical consequences.
Richard Cyganiak: Impression that we have not heard really sound technical arguments for possible choices. Preferences, but not discussion of technical consequences. ←
16:18:25 <Zakim> +Sandro.a
Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro.a ←
16:18:30 <Zakim> -Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro ←
16:18:42 <Guus> zakim, [IPcaller] is GuusS
Guus Schreiber: zakim, [IPcaller] is GuusS ←
16:18:42 <Zakim> +GuusS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +GuusS; got it ←
16:18:50 <Zakim> +AZ
Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ ←
16:18:52 <manu> We say the following in the JSON-LD specification: Even though JSON-LD serializes RDF datasets, it can also be used as a RDF graph source. In that case, a consumer must only use the default graph and ignore all named graphs. This allows servers to expose data in, e.g., both Turtle and JSON-LD using content negotiation.
Manu Sporny: We say the following in the JSON-LD specification: Even though JSON-LD serializes RDF datasets, it can also be used as a RDF graph source. In that case, a consumer must only use the default graph and ignore all named graphs. This allows servers to expose data in, e.g., both Turtle and JSON-LD using content negotiation. ←
16:19:12 <Zakim> -AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS ←
16:19:31 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
16:19:32 <sandro> +1 (manu's quoted json-ld text)
Sandro Hawke: +1 (manu's quoted json-ld text) ←
16:19:41 <tbaker> cygri: Re: manu's text in irc: agree this is good as strawman proposal for what to say in Concepts.
Richard Cyganiak: Re: manu's text in irc: agree this is good as strawman proposal for what to say in Concepts. ←
16:19:47 <manu> We also have this (which is sorta redundant): NOTE: Publishers supporting both dataset and graph syntaxes have to ensure that the primary data is stored in the default graph to enable consumers that do not support datasets to process the information.
Manu Sporny: We also have this (which is sorta redundant): NOTE: Publishers supporting both dataset and graph syntaxes have to ensure that the primary data is stored in the default graph to enable consumers that do not support datasets to process the information. ←
16:19:50 <davidwood> ack ivan
David Wood: ack ivan ←
16:20:04 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
16:20:05 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, IPCaller is me ←
16:20:05 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it ←
16:20:18 <manu> zakim, Mute AndyS
Manu Sporny: zakim, Mute AndyS ←
16:20:18 <Zakim> AndyS should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS should now be muted ←
16:20:30 <AndyS> zakim, unmute me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, unmute me ←
16:20:30 <Zakim> AndyS should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS should no longer be muted ←
16:20:51 <Zakim> -AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS ←
16:20:59 <tbaker> Ivan: We had some problems. Andy? But could perhaps put in not as a normative text - various serializations could follow this advice.
Ivan Herman: We had some problems. Andy? But could perhaps put in not as a normative text - various serializations could follow this advice. ←
16:21:01 <Zakim> -Guus
Zakim IRC Bot: -Guus ←
16:21:17 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
16:21:20 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, IPCaller is me ←
16:21:20 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it ←
16:21:22 <Zakim> -GuusS
Zakim IRC Bot: -GuusS ←
16:21:42 <tbaker> davidwood: JSON-LD tries to be both graph and data format.
David Wood: JSON-LD tries to be both graph and data format. ←
16:22:24 <Zakim> +Guus
Zakim IRC Bot: +Guus ←
16:22:31 <manu> ivan: JSON-LD is both a graph and dataset format. This problem will be an issue in RDFa in the future if it supports named graphs.
Ivan Herman: JSON-LD is both a graph and dataset format. This problem will be an issue in RDFa in the future if it supports named graphs. [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
16:22:53 <tbaker> AndyS: Haven't heard anyone address concerns re: provenance
Andy Seaborne: Haven't heard anyone address concerns re: provenance ←
16:23:09 <tbaker> davidwood: Haven't heard what concern is, only that there is one.
David Wood: Haven't heard what concern is, only that there is one. ←
16:23:11 <manu> ivan: Perhaps we can put the JSON-LD text in as non-normative text into the RDF Concepts document
Ivan Herman: Perhaps we can put the JSON-LD text in as non-normative text into the RDF Concepts document [ Scribe Assist by Manu Sporny ] ←
16:23:28 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
16:24:08 <tbaker> AndyS: Concern of having a format that can confuse where data has come from - then claiming that data to be true.
Andy Seaborne: Concern of having a format that can confuse where data has come from - then claiming that data to be true. ←
16:24:16 <tbaker> davidwood: same issue in Turtle?
David Wood: same issue in Turtle? ←
16:24:53 <markus> isn't that exactly the reason why we choose the default graph?
Markus Lanthaler: isn't that exactly the reason why we choose the default graph? ←
16:24:54 <tbaker> AndyS: No because then you have a graph. Can talk about Provenance. If you pick one and treat as graph, you have changed the mechanism of keeping them apart.
Andy Seaborne: No because then you have a graph. Can talk about Provenance. If you pick one and treat as graph, you have changed the mechanism of keeping them apart. ←
16:25:12 <Guus> zakim, mute me
Guus Schreiber: zakim, mute me ←
16:25:12 <Zakim> Guus should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Guus should now be muted ←
16:25:34 <tbaker> cygri: but we take the default graph - ignore named graph and take default.
Richard Cyganiak: but we take the default graph - ignore named graph and take default. ←
16:25:46 <manu> -1 to merge all the graphs into one.
Manu Sporny: -1 to merge all the graphs into one. ←
16:25:52 <manu> -1 to take a specific named graph.
Manu Sporny: -1 to take a specific named graph. ←
16:26:03 <tbaker> AndyS: I'm happy taking default, merging graphs, etc - not sure where Steve stands.
Andy Seaborne: I'm happy taking default, merging graphs, etc - not sure where Steve stands. ←
16:26:16 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-mobile
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, please dial ericP-mobile ←
16:26:16 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ericP; the call is being made ←
16:26:18 <Zakim> -ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: -ericP ←
16:26:18 <Zakim> +EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP ←
16:26:49 <Arnaud> merging all the graphs would seem really wrong
Arnaud Le Hors: merging all the graphs would seem really wrong ←
16:27:10 <sandro> davidwood, I hear consensus of the people here. can steve come next week to make his case?
Sandro Hawke: davidwood, I hear consensus of the people here. can steve come next week to make his case? ←
16:27:44 <tbaker> cygri: I don't think anyone is arguing for merging. Name as location of trig document - less preferable than taking default graph - but not unreasonable. We should probably get Steve to clarify his concerns about default graph approach.
Richard Cyganiak: I don't think anyone is arguing for merging. Name as location of trig document - less preferable than taking default graph - but not unreasonable. We should probably get Steve to clarify his concerns about default graph approach. ←
16:27:44 <davidwood> Sandro, can you send Steve a mail?
David Wood: Sandro, can you send Steve a mail? ←
16:28:28 <tbaker> AndyS: Potential problems. We do not have definition of dataset where you are naming a graph.
Andy Seaborne: Potential problems. We do not have definition of dataset where you are naming a graph. ←
16:28:42 <sandro> davidwood, sure, but I'd rather we have a resolution pending steve objecting, so he has something specific to react to.
Sandro Hawke: davidwood, sure, but I'd rather we have a resolution pending steve objecting, so he has something specific to react to. ←
16:28:52 <davidwood> sandro, sure
David Wood: sandro, sure ←
16:29:11 <tbaker> cygri: Prefer to use default graph. In implementations, may not know what doc is loaded from, so problem of picking particular graph and may not know which one to pick.
Richard Cyganiak: Prefer to use default graph. In implementations, may not know what doc is loaded from, so problem of picking particular graph and may not know which one to pick. ←
16:29:20 <ivan> q?
Ivan Herman: q? ←
16:29:30 <davidwood> ack ivan
David Wood: ack ivan ←
16:29:31 <tbaker> AndyS: At back-end, you may not know what host name was used to GET the data.
Andy Seaborne: At back-end, you may not know what host name was used to GET the data. ←
16:29:57 <tbaker> Ivan: Afraid of rat hole. In past, we decided that Trig and Turtle are radically different.
Ivan Herman: Afraid of rat hole. In past, we decided that Trig and Turtle are radically different. ←
16:30:06 <tbaker> ... Therefore we should keep them different.
... Therefore we should keep them different. ←
16:30:40 <manu> proposed proposal: Add a non-normative statement to RDF Concepts explaining that if a RDF serialization format supports expressing both datasets and graphs, that a consumer should use the default graph if it is expecting a graph. Publishers should publish information intended for graph-only clients in the default graph.
Manu Sporny: proposed proposal: Add a non-normative statement to RDF Concepts explaining that if a RDF serialization format supports expressing both datasets and graphs, that a consumer should use the default graph if it is expecting a graph. Publishers should publish information intended for graph-only clients in the default graph. ←
16:31:28 <davidwood> We *can* resolve today, but should be careful to advise the rest of the WG and be responsive to objections.
David Wood: We *can* resolve today, but should be careful to advise the rest of the WG and be responsive to objections. ←
16:31:30 <tbaker> ... JSON-LD is different. Also RDFa. Only one JSON-LD that can express single graph or dataset. Concept draft should simply say that if the syntax supports this distiinction, can do.
... JSON-LD is different. Also RDFa. Only one JSON-LD that can express single graph or dataset. Concept draft should simply say that if the syntax supports this distiinction, can do. ←
16:31:47 <tbaker> ... This was raised because of JSON-LD.
... This was raised because of JSON-LD. ←
16:31:50 <davidwood> Many WGs continue work after a charter expiration.
David Wood: Many WGs continue work after a charter expiration. ←
16:32:57 <tbaker> cygri: would be an issue anywhere. Strongest with JSON-LD. Technically not correct that JSON-LD can serialize graph or dataset. Cannot distinguish. No way to indicate you are just serializing a graph. Same with Trig.
Richard Cyganiak: would be an issue anywhere. Strongest with JSON-LD. Technically not correct that JSON-LD can serialize graph or dataset. Cannot distinguish. No way to indicate you are just serializing a graph. Same with Trig. ←
16:33:10 <manu> q+ to state that you can specify a graph-only, kinda.
Manu Sporny: q+ to state that you can specify a graph-only, kinda. ←
16:33:24 <tbaker> Ivan: Trig and Turtle have different media types.
Ivan Herman: Trig and Turtle have different media types. ←
16:33:39 <Zakim> -AZ
Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ ←
16:33:54 <tbaker> ... JSON-LD does not have the equivalent of Turtle.
... JSON-LD does not have the equivalent of Turtle. ←
16:34:00 <manu> q-
Manu Sporny: q- ←
16:34:09 <tbaker> Ivan: No way in JSON-LD to say "I am only a graph, not a dataset"
Ivan Herman: No way in JSON-LD to say "I am only a graph, not a dataset" ←
16:34:12 <markus> I think the question is whether a dataset can be interpreted as graph or not... the serialization doesn't really matter
Markus Lanthaler: I think the question is whether a dataset can be interpreted as graph or not... the serialization doesn't really matter ←
16:34:16 <Zakim> +AZ
Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ ←
16:34:32 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
16:34:36 <tbaker> ... Trig is only a dataset. Trig has a little brother: Turtle. That is the big difference.
... Trig is only a dataset. Trig has a little brother: Turtle. That is the big difference. ←
16:34:38 <sandro> q+ to move the previous question
Sandro Hawke: q+ to move the previous question ←
16:34:59 <tbaker> cygri: Are you saying that having a Trig document that only has default graph is illegal?
Richard Cyganiak: Are you saying that having a Trig document that only has default graph is illegal? ←
16:35:07 <markus> q+
Markus Lanthaler: q+ ←
16:35:13 <tbaker> Ivan: It's legal. It's a dataset consisting of one default graph.
Ivan Herman: It's legal. It's a dataset consisting of one default graph. ←
16:35:42 <davidwood> ack sandro
David Wood: ack sandro ←
16:35:42 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to move the previous question
Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, you wanted to move the previous question ←
16:35:43 <tbaker> cygri: Same in JSON-LD.
Richard Cyganiak: Same in JSON-LD. ←
16:36:22 <tbaker> Sandro: I hear consensus - would like to resolve, for now, on Manu's text.
Sandro Hawke: I hear consensus - would like to resolve, for now, on Manu's text. ←
16:36:24 <AndyS> q+
Andy Seaborne: q+ ←
16:36:30 <davidwood> ack markus
David Wood: ack markus ←
16:37:04 <tbaker> Markus: Not about serialzn format, but can you can treat as graph.
Markus Lanthaler: Not about serialzn format, but can you can treat as graph. ←
16:37:19 <davidwood> ack AndyS
David Wood: ack AndyS ←
16:37:28 <tbaker> davidwood: Using out-of-band info to determine provenance.
David Wood: Using out-of-band info to determine provenance. ←
16:38:17 <tbaker> AndyS: "JSON-LD is a dataset format"?
Andy Seaborne: "JSON-LD is a dataset format"? ←
16:38:35 <tbaker> Sandro: It's supposed to be an RDF serialization.
Sandro Hawke: It's supposed to be an RDF serialization. ←
16:38:48 <pchampin> q+
16:38:56 <tbaker> cygri: Agree with Andy - charter talks about named graphs in JSON format - not out of scope.
Richard Cyganiak: Agree with Andy - charter talks about named graphs in JSON format - not out of scope. ←
16:39:24 <tbaker> AndyS: Problem with using JSON-LD as primary example.
Andy Seaborne: Problem with using JSON-LD as primary example. ←
16:39:34 <tbaker> Sandro: Confident we can resolve this.
Sandro Hawke: Confident we can resolve this. ←
16:39:36 <gavinc> Strawpoll at least?
Gavin Carothers: Strawpoll at least? ←
16:39:43 <davidwood> ack pchampin
David Wood: ack pchampin ←
16:40:19 <sandro> yes, please strawpoll.
Sandro Hawke: yes, please strawpoll. ←
16:40:31 <davidwood> ok
David Wood: ok ←
16:40:35 <cygri> STRAWPOLL: Add a non-normative statement to RDF Concepts explaining that if a RDF serialization format supports expressing both datasets and graphs, that a consumer should use the default graph if it is expecting a graph.
STRAWPOLL: Add a non-normative statement to RDF Concepts explaining that if a RDF serialization format supports expressing both datasets and graphs, that a consumer should use the default graph if it is expecting a graph. ←
16:40:43 <AndyS> AndyS: Prefer to document the two concrete alternatives -- ask for graph, its a dataset format => (1) default graph or (2) conneg error.
Andy Seaborne: Prefer to document the two concrete alternatives -- ask for graph, its a dataset format => (1) default graph or (2) conneg error. [ Scribe Assist by Andy Seaborne ] ←
16:40:48 <tbaker> pchampin: Elephant in room. Special case of JSON-LD - we expect to attract people who would not use Turtle.
Pierre-Antoine Champin: Elephant in room. Special case of JSON-LD - we expect to attract people who would not use Turtle. ←
16:40:49 <manu> +1
Manu Sporny: +1 ←
16:40:51 <markus> +1
Markus Lanthaler: +1 ←
16:40:59 <AZ> s/Antoine:/pchampin/
Antoine Zimmermann: s/Antoine:/pchampin/ (warning: replacement failed) ←
16:41:01 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
16:41:04 <pchampin> s/Antoine:/Pierre-Antoine:/
Pierre-Antoine Champin: s/Antoine:/Pierre-Antoine:/ (warning: replacement failed) ←
16:41:04 <tbaker> +1
+1 ←
16:41:06 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
16:41:10 <AndyS> 0
Andy Seaborne: 0 ←
16:41:10 <gkellogg> +1
Gregg Kellogg: +1 ←
16:41:17 <zwu2> +1
16:41:19 <cygri> AndyS, I don't know what a "conneg error" is
Richard Cyganiak: AndyS, I don't know what a "conneg error" is ←
16:41:22 <AZ> 0
16:41:23 <gavinc> 0
Gavin Carothers: 0 ←
16:41:23 <davidwood> +1
David Wood: +1 ←
16:41:24 <pchampin> +1
16:41:24 <markus> (would prefer a normative statement though)
Markus Lanthaler: (would prefer a normative statement though) ←
16:41:29 <ericP> +1
Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 ←
16:41:31 <Souri> +1
Souripriya Das: +1 ←
16:41:37 <TallTed> +1 (minor reword for clarity coming in a moment)
Ted Thibodeau: +1 (minor reword for clarity coming in a moment) ←
16:41:43 <Arnaud> 0
Arnaud Le Hors: 0 ←
16:41:44 <sandro> (would also strongly prefer normative stmt)
Sandro Hawke: (would also strongly prefer normative stmt) ←
16:41:53 <Guus> +1
Guus Schreiber: +1 ←
16:42:02 <gavinc> Yes.
Gavin Carothers: Yes. ←
16:42:09 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
16:42:15 <AndyS> cygri - 406 Not Acceptable
Andy Seaborne: cygri - 406 Not Acceptable ←
16:42:16 <tbaker> davidwood: Would anyone change their position if the proposal were for a normative statement?
David Wood: Would anyone change their position if the proposal were for a normative statement? ←
16:42:19 <ericP> there are a myriad of ways where i've coded an equivalence between the trig default graph and a turtle graph
Eric Prud'hommeaux: there are a myriad of ways where i've coded an equivalence between the trig default graph and a turtle graph ←
16:42:30 <gavinc> +q -1 for lack of implementation experience
Gavin Carothers: +q -1 for lack of implementation experience ←
16:42:36 <AndyS> .... "content characteristics not acceptable according to the accept headers sent in the request. "
Andy Seaborne: .... "content characteristics not acceptable according to the accept headers sent in the request. " ←
16:42:37 <gavinc> -q -1
Gavin Carothers: -q -1 ←
16:42:58 <ericP> e.g. -d foo.ttl and -d { foo.ttl's contents }.trig are the same
Eric Prud'hommeaux: e.g. -d foo.ttl and -d { foo.ttl's contents }.trig are the same ←
16:43:03 <sandro> (I can certainly live without normative statement. informative is good enough, indeed.)
Sandro Hawke: (I can certainly live without normative statement. informative is good enough, indeed.) ←
16:43:07 <davidwood> ack ivan
David Wood: ack ivan ←
16:43:09 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
16:43:11 <tbaker> cygri: Concerns. More clarity required for normative. We don't want to get to point of explaining what this means in terms of semantics. Need to reflect in semantics? Informative is good enough if we can avoid that discussion.
Richard Cyganiak: Concerns. More clarity required for normative. We don't want to get to point of explaining what this means in terms of semantics. Need to reflect in semantics? Informative is good enough if we can avoid that discussion. ←
16:43:43 <tbaker> Davidwood: If Steve wants to object, he can.
David Wood: If Steve wants to object, he can. ←
16:44:24 <tbaker> Gavin: would change vote to -1 if normative.
Gavin Carothers: would change vote to -1 if normative. ←
16:44:27 <TallTed> "Add a non-normative statement to RDF Concepts explaining that if a consumer requesting/expecting a graph receives an RDF serialization format which may express both datasets and graphs, the default graph of that serialization should be treated as the graph response."
Ted Thibodeau: "Add a non-normative statement to RDF Concepts explaining that if a consumer requesting/expecting a graph receives an RDF serialization format which may express both datasets and graphs, the default graph of that serialization should be treated as the graph response." ←
16:45:34 <tbaker> Davidwood: I propose to use wording of straw poll in proposal.
David Wood: I propose to use wording of straw poll in proposal. ←
16:45:49 <sandro> PROPOSED: Add a non-normative statement to RDF Concepts explaining that if a RDF serialization format supports expressing both datasets and graphs, that a consumer should use the default graph if it is expecting a graph. (Actual wording to be handled by editor)
PROPOSED: Add a non-normative statement to RDF Concepts explaining that if a RDF serialization format supports expressing both datasets and graphs, that a consumer should use the default graph if it is expecting a graph. (Actual wording to be handled by editor) ←
16:45:53 <gkellogg> +1
Gregg Kellogg: +1 ←
16:45:55 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
16:45:56 <cygri> +1
Richard Cyganiak: +1 ←
16:46:01 <zwu2> +1
16:46:02 <tbaker> ... Vote?
... Vote? ←
16:46:02 <TallTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
16:46:06 <markus> +1
Markus Lanthaler: +1 ←
16:46:06 <manu> +1
Manu Sporny: +1 ←
16:46:07 <tbaker> +1
+1 ←
16:46:09 <gavinc> 0
Gavin Carothers: 0 ←
16:46:10 <davidwood> +1
David Wood: +1 ←
16:46:12 <Arnaud> 0
Arnaud Le Hors: 0 ←
16:46:13 <Souri> +1
Souripriya Das: +1 ←
16:46:13 <sandro> (Note that Steve, etc, might object and re-open this, in the coming days)
Sandro Hawke: (Note that Steve, etc, might object and re-open this, in the coming days) ←
16:46:14 <pchampin> +1
16:46:17 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
16:46:19 <Guus> +1
Guus Schreiber: +1 ←
16:46:20 <AndyS> 0
Andy Seaborne: 0 ←
16:46:47 <tbaker> Davidwood: Andy, how do you design software to deduce this?
David Wood: Andy, how do you design software to deduce this? ←
16:46:48 <Souri> *to* RDF Concepts
Souripriya Das: *to* RDF Concepts ←
16:46:55 <AZ> 0
16:47:11 <Zakim> -EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: -EricP ←
16:47:13 <Zakim> +EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP ←
16:47:13 <tbaker> RESOLVED: Add a non-normative statement to RDF Concepts explaining that if a RDF serialization format supports expressing both datasets and graphs, that a consumer should use the default graph if it is expecting a graph. (Actual wording to be handled by editor)
RESOLVED: Add a non-normative statement to RDF Concepts explaining that if a RDF serialization format supports expressing both datasets and graphs, that a consumer should use the default graph if it is expecting a graph. (Actual wording to be handled by editor) ←
16:47:17 <tbaker> AndyS: [Something about] not hard wired.
Andy Seaborne: [Something about] not hard wired. ←
16:47:22 <sandro> closes issue-105
Sandro Hawke: closes ISSUE-105 ←
16:47:48 <gavinc> ISSUE-107?
16:47:48 <trackbot> ISSUE-107 -- Revised definition of blank nodes -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-107 -- Revised definition of blank nodes -- open ←
16:47:48 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/107
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/107 ←
16:47:50 <ivan> issue-107?
16:47:50 <trackbot> ISSUE-107 -- Revised definition of blank nodes -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-107 -- Revised definition of blank nodes -- open ←
16:47:50 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/107
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/107 ←
16:47:56 <tbaker> Davidwood: when minutes are posted, will point Steve to them.
David Wood: when minutes are posted, will point Steve to them. ←
16:48:31 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
Sandro Hawke: RRSAgent, pointer? ←
16:48:31 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2013/02/06-rdf-wg-irc#T16-48-31
RRSAgent IRC Bot: See http://www.w3.org/2013/02/06-rdf-wg-irc#T16-48-31 ←
16:49:22 <tbaker> cygri: Re: ISSUE-107, discussion on list. Would be good to have Antoine explain concern. Issue of clarity of definitions.
Richard Cyganiak: Re: ISSUE-107, discussion on list. Would be good to have Antoine explain concern. Issue of clarity of definitions. ←
16:49:34 <sandro> RRSAgent, make logs public
Sandro Hawke: RRSAgent, make logs public ←
16:50:10 <tbaker> ... If we run out of time, this shouldn't hold up Last Call. Happy to wait and see if btw Pat, Antoine, and myself - put a proposal to WG, if we can.
... If we run out of time, this shouldn't hold up Last Call. Happy to wait and see if btw Pat, Antoine, and myself - put a proposal to WG, if we can. ←
16:50:52 <AZ> q+
Antoine Zimmermann: q+ ←
16:50:53 <tbaker> ... will follow up with Antoine and Pat.
... will follow up with Antoine and Pat. ←
16:51:03 <davidwood> ack AZ
David Wood: ack AZ ←
16:51:28 <tbaker> AZ: My last proposal, I didn't get reaction from Richard, just from Pat.
Antoine Zimmermann: My last proposal, I didn't get reaction from Richard, just from Pat. ←
16:51:41 <davidwood> From AZ:
David Wood: From AZ: ←
16:51:43 <davidwood> My proposal, and what Richard was trying to do in our most recent
David Wood: My proposal, and what Richard was trying to do in our most recent ←
16:51:43 <davidwood> discussion, is to keep the notion of scope outside the definition of bnodes.
David Wood: discussion, is to keep the notion of scope outside the definition of bnodes. ←
16:51:43 <davidwood>
16:51:43 <davidwood>
16:51:43 <davidwood> "I claim that the idea of a scope *of an identifier* is so widely
David Wood: "I claim that the idea of a scope *of an identifier* is so widely ←
16:51:43 <davidwood> understood as to require no explanation, although a sketch can be
David Wood: understood as to require no explanation, although a sketch can be ←
16:51:43 <davidwood> provided if one wishes to do so."
David Wood: provided if one wishes to do so." ←
16:51:45 <tbaker> cygri: just no time yet.
Richard Cyganiak: just no time yet. ←
16:52:07 <tbaker> davidwood: Is this what you meant, Antoine?
David Wood: Is this what you meant, Antoine? ←
16:52:29 <tbaker> cygri: Agree with Antoine that there is no point discussing it on this call.
Richard Cyganiak: Agree with Antoine that there is no point discussing it on this call. ←
16:52:37 <ivan> issue-111?
16:52:37 <trackbot> ISSUE-111 -- Should RDF Concepts define any operations on RDF datasets? -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-111 -- Should RDF Concepts define any operations on RDF datasets? -- open ←
16:52:37 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/111
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/111 ←
16:52:38 <tbaker> Davidwood: Now ISSUE-111
David Wood: Now ISSUE-111 ←
16:52:51 <cygri> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Jan/0067.html
Richard Cyganiak: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Jan/0067.html ←
16:53:57 <ivan> +1 to richard
Ivan Herman: +1 to richard ←
16:53:58 <tbaker> cygri: Discussion thread (see link) - opinions I saw that dataset isomorphism should probably be defined - possible to consider any other operations into dataset semantics nodes. Might be possibility - include isomorphism informatively.
Richard Cyganiak: Discussion thread (see link) - opinions I saw that dataset isomorphism should probably be defined - possible to consider any other operations into dataset semantics nodes. Might be possibility - include isomorphism informatively. ←
16:53:59 <gavinc> +1 to dataset Isomorphism to allow for test cases specifically to allow to TriG test cases
Gavin Carothers: +1 to dataset Isomorphism to allow for test cases specifically to allow to TriG test cases ←
16:54:22 <gkellogg> +1 on isomorphism too.
Gregg Kellogg: +1 on isomorphism too. ←
16:54:35 <cygri> PROPOSAL: define only dataset isomorphism normatively in RDF concepts. possibly define other dataset operations in Dataset Semantics WG Note
PROPOSED: define only dataset isomorphism normatively in RDF concepts. possibly define other dataset operations in Dataset Semantics WG Note ←
16:54:39 <AZ> +1 to isomorphism
Antoine Zimmermann: +1 to isomorphism ←
16:54:42 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
16:54:45 <gavinc> +1
Gavin Carothers: +1 ←
16:54:47 <gkellogg> +1
Gregg Kellogg: +1 ←
16:54:49 <davidwood> +1
David Wood: +1 ←
16:54:50 <zwu2> +1
16:54:51 <manu> +1 to isomorphism
Manu Sporny: +1 to isomorphism ←
16:54:55 <pchampin> +1
16:54:56 <tbaker> cygri:Actual definition for isomorphism is not controversial.
Richard Cyganiak: Actual definition for isomorphism is not controversial. ←
16:54:57 <markus> +1
Markus Lanthaler: +1 ←
16:55:04 <TallTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
16:55:07 <Souri> +1
Souripriya Das: +1 ←
16:55:11 <ericP> +1
Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 ←
16:55:12 <AndyS> +1
Andy Seaborne: +1 ←
16:55:13 <tbaker> +0
+0 ←
16:55:34 <tbaker> Sandro? : SPARQL talks about it.
EricP? : SPARQL talks about it. ←
16:56:09 <tbaker> ... No, "dataset", not "isomorphism". Implictly in SPARQL tests.
... No, "dataset", not "isomorphism". Implictly in SPARQL tests. ←
16:56:19 <tbaker> s/Sandro/EricP/
16:56:20 <davidwood> Jeremy Carroll on (sub)Graph isomorphism and SPARQL tests http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2004Dec/0016.html
David Wood: Jeremy Carroll on (sub)Graph isomorphism and SPARQL tests http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2004Dec/0016.html ←
16:56:50 <tbaker> davidwood: Is Jeremy's post relevant, or just for sub-graphs?
David Wood: Is Jeremy's post relevant, or just for sub-graphs? ←
16:56:53 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
16:57:20 <tbaker> RESOLVED: Define only dataset isomorphism normatively in RDF concepts. Possibly define other dataset operations in Dataset Semantics WG Note.
RESOLVED: Define only dataset isomorphism normatively in RDF concepts. Possibly define other dataset operations in Dataset Semantics WG Note. ←
16:57:26 <cygri> ACTION: cygri to implement ISSUE-111 resolution.
ACTION: cygri to implement ISSUE-111 resolution. ←
16:57:26 <trackbot> Created ACTION-226 - Implement ISUE-111 resolution [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2013-02-13].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-226 - Implement ISUE-111 resolution [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2013-02-13]. ←
16:57:44 <cygri> ACTION: cygri to present concrete wording for ISSUE-105.
ACTION: cygri to present concrete wording for ISSUE-105. ←
16:57:44 <trackbot> Created ACTION-227 - Present concrete wording for ISSUE-105 [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2013-02-13].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-227 - Present concrete wording for ISSUE-105 [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2013-02-13]. ←
16:57:51 <tbaker> davidwood: Manu, you wanted to discuss blank node identifier.
David Wood: Manu, you wanted to discuss blank node identifier. ←
16:58:24 <tbaker> Manu: Don't want this to create big change. Just want to make sure we get suggestion from RDF WG that is aligned with RDF Concepts that we can use in JSON-LD.
Manu Sporny: Don't want this to create big change. Just want to make sure we get suggestion from RDF WG that is aligned with RDF Concepts that we can use in JSON-LD. ←
16:58:27 <manu> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Feb/0012.html
Manu Sporny: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Feb/0012.html ←
16:59:12 <tbaker> ... Had initially requested that we be allowed to use blank node identifiers as graph names. Should have said: We need way to generate identifiers. Pat said: auto-create "graph:1"...
... Had initially requested that we be allowed to use blank node identifiers as graph names. Should have said: We need way to generate identifiers. Pat said: auto-create "graph:1"... ←
16:59:13 <manu> Pat's proposal is to do something like: graph:1
Manu Sporny: Pat's proposal is to do something like: graph:1 ←
16:59:15 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
16:59:28 <AndyS> c.f. rdf:li => rdf:_1
Andy Seaborne: c.f. rdf:li => rdf:_1 ←
16:59:53 <tbaker> ... that would be valid IRI local to dataset. But seems to be developing a new type of dataset identifier.
... that would be valid IRI local to dataset. But seems to be developing a new type of dataset identifier. ←
16:59:58 <ericP> +1 to manu's point that graph:1 effectively invents bnodes
Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 to manu's point that graph:1 effectively invents bnodes ←
17:00:01 <tbaker> ... Andy just put another type into IRC.
... Andy just put another type into IRC. ←
17:00:42 <AndyS> Suggestion -- use fragids from the document ID. #graph1, #graph2, .... then not local alloc problems.
Andy Seaborne: Suggestion -- use fragids from the document ID. #graph1, #graph2, .... then not local alloc problems. ←
17:00:43 <sandro> oh look, this would bring the number of kludges in RDF up to.... all of them?
Sandro Hawke: oh look, this would bring the number of kludges in RDF up to.... all of them? ←
17:00:55 <cygri> AndyS++
Richard Cyganiak: AndyS++ ←
17:00:56 <tbaker> ... Dataset normalization algorithm will be rec-tracked. We think graph:1 would re-invent concept of blank node identifier.
... Dataset normalization algorithm will be rec-tracked. We think graph:1 would re-invent concept of blank node identifier. ←
17:00:57 <davidwood> ack ivan
David Wood: ack ivan ←
17:01:27 <ericP> AndyS, would i expect that #graph1 would persist across serializations?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: AndyS, would i expect that #graph1 would persist across serializations? ←
17:01:44 <gkellogg> Graph name not just internal, it is a consideration for RDF generation.
Gregg Kellogg: Graph name not just internal, it is a consideration for RDF generation. ←
17:01:55 <tbaker> Ivan: Why do you care to define exact format? What you want is to say X uses some unique name, and how this is done internally is an implementation-dependent thing.
Ivan Herman: Why do you care to define exact format? What you want is to say X uses some unique name, and how this is done internally is an implementation-dependent thing. ←
17:02:04 <davidwood> ericP, no, but it could be trivially recreated when needed, right?
David Wood: ericP, no, but it could be trivially recreated when needed, right? ←
17:02:18 <AndyS> ericP - yes (required for JSON-LD) but if no #unique-1 #unique-2 ....
Andy Seaborne: ericP - yes (required for JSON-LD) but if no #unique-1 #unique-2 .... ←
17:02:26 <tbaker> Manu: But we are talking about normalization. Graphs ending up with different signatures.
Manu Sporny: But we are talking about normalization. Graphs ending up with different signatures. ←
17:02:54 <tbaker> ... Do not believe skolemization works with a dataset format - need to understand connectivity between nodes of graphs.
... Do not believe skolemization works with a dataset format - need to understand connectivity between nodes of graphs. ←
17:03:43 <ericP> how about a URI scheme which has the semantics that it's not a universal resource identifier?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: how about a URI scheme which has the semantics that it's not a universal resource identifier? ←
17:03:53 <manu> This is what we need to know, when normalizing _:bnode1 foaf:name "Ivan" WHAT_GOES_HERE . What identifier do we generate for the "graph name".
Manu Sporny: This is what we need to know, when normalizing _:bnode1 foaf:name "Ivan" WHAT_GOES_HERE . What identifier do we generate for the "graph name". ←
17:03:56 <ericP> LRI?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: LRI? ←
17:03:58 <tbaker> Ivan: I do not understand why this goes against skolemization. Skolemization is about assigning funny-looking URIs to blank nodes. In JSON-LD, you don't necessarily have bdones in terms of RDF semantics. Syntax generates URIs for you.
Ivan Herman: I do not understand why this goes against skolemization. Skolemization is about assigning funny-looking URIs to blank nodes. In JSON-LD, you don't necessarily have bdones in terms of RDF semantics. Syntax generates URIs for you. ←
17:04:24 <markus> isn't skolem IRI = bnode ID? So if you use them you *do* use a bnode ID as graph name, don't you?
Markus Lanthaler: isn't skolem IRI = bnode ID? So if you use them you *do* use a bnode ID as graph name, don't you? ←
17:04:37 <cygri> this is a skolem iri: http://{implementation-dependent-domain}/.well-known/genid/{arbitrary-string}
Richard Cyganiak: this is a skolem iri: http://{implementation-dependent-domain}/.well-known/genid/{arbitrary-string} ←
17:04:47 <tbaker> Manu: Could we just generate URI? Yes, but new URIs. We are inventing new identifiers not local to dataset, have http://.
Manu Sporny: Could we just generate URI? Yes, but new URIs. We are inventing new identifiers not local to dataset, have http://. ←
17:04:49 <gkellogg> +1 to markus, it's just a way of expressing a BNode with an IRI
Gregg Kellogg: +1 to markus, it's just a way of expressing a BNode with an IRI ←
17:05:25 <gavinc> RDF doesn't have local things.
Gavin Carothers: RDF doesn't have local things. ←
17:05:37 <gavinc> BNodes aren't local either :P
Gavin Carothers: BNodes aren't local either :P ←
17:05:40 <tbaker> Ivan: could be a UUID.
Ivan Herman: could be a UUID. ←
17:06:08 <tbaker> Manu: IRIs are globally valid. But what we need is a local identifier, not an IRI.
Manu Sporny: IRIs are globally valid. But what we need is a local identifier, not an IRI. ←
17:06:30 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
17:06:40 <gkellogg> q+
Gregg Kellogg: q+ ←
17:07:06 <AndyS> This isn't "using bNode identifiers" if they aren't for bnodes.
Andy Seaborne: This isn't "using bNode identifiers" if they aren't for bnodes. ←
17:07:13 <manu> q+
Manu Sporny: q+ ←
17:07:15 <tbaker> cygri: Do not understand requirements. Two mechanisms proposed, both okay. Skolem IRIs. Or document-local fragments. Not use skolem IRIs because not globally unique??
Richard Cyganiak: Do not understand requirements. Two mechanisms proposed, both okay. Skolem IRIs. Or document-local fragments. Not use skolem IRIs because not globally unique?? ←
17:07:23 <davidwood> ack gkellogg
David Wood: ack gkellogg ←
17:08:00 <Guus> +1 to gregg
Guus Schreiber: +1 to gregg ←
17:08:16 <ericP> q?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q? ←
17:08:17 <manu> -1 skolem IDs don't work because the procssor is creating them for you.
Manu Sporny: -1 skolem IDs don't work because the procssor is creating them for you. ←
17:08:20 <davidwood> ack manu
David Wood: ack manu ←
17:08:26 <tbaker> Gregg: If skolem IDs do not work here, it is a problem with skolem URIs. You should be able to round-trip. I think they do work, and allow JSON-LD to work with internal blank node identifiers -- which need to be turned into skolem iDs.
Gregg Kellogg: If skolem IDs do not work here, it is a problem with skolem URIs. You should be able to round-trip. I think they do work, and allow JSON-LD to work with internal blank node identifiers -- which need to be turned into skolem iDs. ←
17:09:17 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
17:10:14 <tbaker> Manu: With skolem IDs, processor uses its own URI space or emits URI using some domain that it doesn't control -- spaces where it shouldn't be minting IRIs. Alternative: have a space just for JSON-LD processors. But in a global space there is potential for clashes. Safer to have local IRI scheme and start generating identifiers.
Manu Sporny: With skolem IDs, processor uses its own URI space or emits URI using some domain that it doesn't control -- spaces where it shouldn't be minting IRIs. Alternative: have a space just for JSON-LD processors. But in a global space there is potential for clashes. Safer to have local IRI scheme and start generating identifiers. ←
17:10:21 <tbaker> Ivan: You mean URN? Formally, if you create a new URI scheme, should you register it.
Ivan Herman: You mean URN? Formally, if you create a new URI scheme, should you register it. ←
17:10:43 <davidwood> ack cygri
David Wood: ack cygri ←
17:11:18 <tbaker> cygri: We have skolem IRIs - motivation was to reserve space to mint URIs to represent blank nodes. Local IDs are arbitrary. I don't understand argument re: potential clashes - but you are writing an algorithm, so I do not see how you would not be able to avoid clashes.
Richard Cyganiak: We have skolem IRIs - motivation was to reserve space to mint URIs to represent blank nodes. Local IDs are arbitrary. I don't understand argument re: potential clashes - but you are writing an algorithm, so I do not see how you would not be able to avoid clashes. ←
17:11:52 <manu> What happens when I fetch a graph without a name from "http://example.org/" ?
Manu Sporny: What happens when I fetch a graph without a name from "http://example.org/" ? ←
17:12:59 <tbaker> Manu: Because in local, decentralized systems, generating UUIDs, they will clash eventually. Skolem IDs are local and we need a local ID. If we get a graph, need to normalize, but by minting URIs in someone else's URI space?
Manu Sporny: Because in local, decentralized systems, generating UUIDs, they will clash eventually. Skolem IDs are local and we need a local ID. If we get a graph, need to normalize, but by minting URIs in someone else's URI space? ←
17:13:46 <AndyS> q+
Andy Seaborne: q+ ←
17:14:02 <Souri> What happens to dataset-local identifiers when we merge two or more datasets?
Souripriya Das: What happens to dataset-local identifiers when we merge two or more datasets? ←
17:14:38 <tbaker> cygri: Assign domain in which skolem IDs are generated. You can make statistically unlikely. If that is not good enough...?
Richard Cyganiak: Assign domain in which skolem IDs are generated. You can make statistically unlikely. If that is not good enough...? ←
17:15:11 <tbaker> Manu: Okay, let's leave aside the statistical issue... But you are still generating global IDs for what should be local IDs.
Manu Sporny: Okay, let's leave aside the statistical issue... But you are still generating global IDs for what should be local IDs. ←
17:15:45 <tbaker> cygri: Whoever sets up the processor configures the domain.
Richard Cyganiak: Whoever sets up the processor configures the domain. ←
17:16:04 <davidwood> ack AndyS
David Wood: ack AndyS ←
17:16:06 <tbaker> Someone says "You need them to be stable. And local. Cannot resolve the two requirements."
Someone says "You need them to be stable. And local. Cannot resolve the two requirements." ←
17:16:55 <manu> Regarding confusion between dataset-local identifier vs. normalization - no, not correct.
Manu Sporny: Regarding confusion between dataset-local identifier vs. normalization - no, not correct. ←
17:16:58 <manu> but we're out of time.
Manu Sporny: but we're out of time. ←
17:16:58 <tbaker> AndyS: You get the graph, and how do you label? Sometimes need to give a name to the act of getting the graph.
Andy Seaborne: You get the graph, and how do you label? Sometimes need to give a name to the act of getting the graph. ←
17:17:17 <tbaker> Davidwood: Out of time.
David Wood: Out of time. ←
17:17:23 <tbaker> [adjourned]
[adjourned] ←
17:17:30 <zwu2> thanks tbaker!
17:17:31 <Zakim> -Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan ←
17:17:33 <Zakim> -manu
Zakim IRC Bot: -manu ←
17:17:39 <Zakim> -Guus
Zakim IRC Bot: -Guus ←
17:17:40 <Zakim> -cygri
Zakim IRC Bot: -cygri ←
17:17:40 <Zakim> -zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: -zwu2 ←
17:17:41 <markus> thanks, bye
Markus Lanthaler: thanks, bye ←
17:17:41 <Zakim> -AZ
Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ ←
17:17:46 <Zakim> -gkellogg
Zakim IRC Bot: -gkellogg ←
17:17:49 <Zakim> -ScottB
Zakim IRC Bot: -ScottB ←
17:17:49 <Guus> thanks, david, all
Guus Schreiber: thanks, david, all ←
17:17:50 <Zakim> -Souri
Zakim IRC Bot: -Souri ←
17:18:01 <Guus> trackbot, end meeting
Guus Schreiber: trackbot, end meeting ←
17:18:01 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees ←
17:18:01 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been GavinC, tbaker, davidwood, Ivan, AndyS, TallTed, gkellogg, Guus, Souri, Sandro, markus, Arnaud, pchampin, cygri, manu, ericP, ScottB, zwu2,
Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been GavinC, tbaker, davidwood, Ivan, AndyS, TallTed, gkellogg, Guus, Souri, Sandro, markus, Arnaud, pchampin, cygri, manu, ericP, ScottB, zwu2, ←
17:18:05 <Zakim> ... GuusS, AZ
Zakim IRC Bot: ... GuusS, AZ ←
17:18:09 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes ←
17:18:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/06-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/02/06-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot ←
17:18:10 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye ←
17:18:10 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/02/06-rdf-wg-actions.rdf :
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/02/06-rdf-wg-actions.rdf : ←
17:18:10 <RRSAgent> ACTION: cygri to implement ISSUE-111 resolution [1]
ACTION: cygri to implement ISSUE-111 resolution [1] ←
17:18:10 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/02/06-rdf-wg-irc#T16-57-26
RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/02/06-rdf-wg-irc#T16-57-26 ←
17:18:10 <RRSAgent> ACTION: cygri to present concrete wording for ISSUE-105 [2]
ACTION: cygri to present concrete wording for ISSUE-105 [2] ←
17:18:10 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/02/06-rdf-wg-irc#T16-57-44
RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/02/06-rdf-wg-irc#T16-57-44 ←
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