16:00:57 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/12/19-rdf-wg-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/12/19-rdf-wg-irc ←
16:00:59 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
16:01:01 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394 ←
16:01:01 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start now
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start now ←
16:01:02 <MacTed> Zakim, code?
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, code? ←
16:01:02 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
16:01:02 <trackbot> Date: 19 December 2012
16:01:03 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), MacTed
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), MacTed ←
16:01:10 <cgreer> scribe: cgreer
(Scribe set to Charles Greer)
16:01:13 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?
Andy Seaborne: zakim, who is on the phone? ←
16:01:13 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, AndyS ←
16:01:14 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, markus, SteveH, Arnaud, cgreer, AndyS, cygri, gkellogg, MacTed, LeeF, ivan, gavinc, davidwood, trackbot, mischat, manu, ericP, manu1, yvesr, sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see RRSAgent, markus, SteveH, Arnaud, cgreer, AndyS, cygri, gkellogg, MacTed, LeeF, ivan, gavinc, davidwood, trackbot, mischat, manu, ericP, manu1, yvesr, sandro ←
16:01:22 <MacTed> Zakim, this is RDFWG
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, this is RDFWG ←
16:01:22 <Zakim> ok, MacTed; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, MacTed; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM ←
16:01:28 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?
Andy Seaborne: zakim, who is on the phone? ←
16:01:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P2, +1.707.874.aaaa, [IPcaller], ??P8, Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see ??P2, +1.707.874.aaaa, [IPcaller], ??P8, Arnaud ←
16:01:30 <Zakim> -??P8
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P8 ←
16:01:35 <cgreer> zakim, aaaa is me
zakim, aaaa is me ←
16:01:35 <Zakim> +cgreer; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +cgreer; got it ←
16:01:36 <AndyS> zakim, IPcaller is me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, IPcaller is me ←
16:01:36 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it ←
16:01:49 <Zakim> +[OpenLink]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[OpenLink] ←
16:01:57 <MacTed> Zakim, [OpenLink] is temporarily me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, [OpenLink] is temporarily me ←
16:01:57 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it ←
16:01:58 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
16:01:58 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
16:02:00 <Zakim> +??P8
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P8 ←
16:02:01 <Zakim> +MHausenblas
Zakim IRC Bot: +MHausenblas ←
16:02:04 <cygri> zakim, mhausenblas is me
Richard Cyganiak: zakim, mhausenblas is me ←
16:02:04 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +cygri; got it ←
16:02:04 <gkellogg> zakim, I am ??P8
Gregg Kellogg: zakim, I am ??P8 ←
16:02:05 <Zakim> +gkellogg; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +gkellogg; got it ←
16:02:18 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P2 is me
Yves Raimond: Zakim, ??P2 is me ←
16:02:18 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +yvesr; got it ←
16:02:33 <Zakim> +davidwood
Zakim IRC Bot: +davidwood ←
16:02:40 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
David Wood: Zakim, who is here? ←
16:02:41 <Zakim> On the phone I see yvesr, cgreer, AndyS, Arnaud (muted), MacTed (muted), gkellogg, cygri, davidwood
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see yvesr, cgreer, AndyS, Arnaud (muted), MacTed (muted), gkellogg, cygri, davidwood ←
16:02:42 <Zakim> On IRC I see AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, markus, SteveH, Arnaud, cgreer, AndyS, cygri, gkellogg, MacTed, LeeF, ivan, gavinc, davidwood, trackbot, mischat, manu, ericP, manu1, yvesr,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, markus, SteveH, Arnaud, cgreer, AndyS, cygri, gkellogg, MacTed, LeeF, ivan, gavinc, davidwood, trackbot, mischat, manu, ericP, manu1, yvesr, ←
16:02:42 <Zakim> ... sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: ... sandro ←
16:02:52 <Zakim> +??P13
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P13 ←
16:02:53 <cgreer> rssagent, make records public
rssagent, make records public ←
16:03:03 <Zakim> + +081165aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: + +081165aabb ←
16:03:17 <markus> zakim, ??p13 is me
Markus Lanthaler: zakim, ??p13 is me ←
16:03:17 <Zakim> +markus; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +markus; got it ←
16:03:17 <AZ> Zakim, aabb is me
Antoine Zimmermann: Zakim, aabb is me ←
16:03:19 <Zakim> +AZ; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ; got it ←
16:03:32 <cgreer> Topic: administration
16:03:48 <cgreer> y
y ←
16:03:50 <ivan> zakim, code?
Ivan Herman: zakim, code? ←
16:03:50 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan ←
16:04:01 <davidwood> Chair: David Wood
16:04:19 <Zakim> +ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: +ivan ←
16:04:24 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
16:04:31 <cgreer> Scribe: cgreer
16:04:33 <SteveH> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
Steve Harris: Zakim, [IPcaller] is me ←
16:04:33 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +SteveH; got it ←
16:04:36 <davidwood> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 12 December telecon: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-12-12
David Wood: PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 12 December telecon: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-12-12 ←
16:04:42 <Zakim> +PatH
Zakim IRC Bot: +PatH ←
16:04:51 <cgreer> ACCEPTED minutes
ACCEPTED minutes ←
16:05:03 <PatH> zakim, mute me
Patrick Hayes: zakim, mute me ←
16:05:03 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should now be muted ←
16:05:04 <davidwood> RESOLVED to accept the minutes of the 12 December telecon: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-12-12
David Wood: RESOLVED to accept the minutes of the 12 December telecon: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-12-12 ←
16:05:10 <davidwood> Review of action items
David Wood: Review of action items ←
16:05:10 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview
David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview ←
16:05:10 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open
David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open ←
16:05:13 <cgreer> Topic: Actions
16:05:31 <cgreer> davidwood: option actions?
David Wood: option actions? ←
16:05:49 <PatH> zakim,unmute me
Patrick Hayes: zakim,unmute me ←
16:05:51 <Zakim> PatH should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should no longer be muted ←
16:05:51 <Zakim> +EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP ←
16:06:57 <cgreer> PatH: I'll run through the open actions
Patrick Hayes: I'll run through the open actions ←
16:07:14 <cgreer> Topic: Semantics
16:07:28 <davidwood> #84 has a fix composed by Antoine which will fix the bug (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Nov/0059.html) and which I propose to use in the text unless I think of something better (unlikely).
David Wood: #84 has a fix composed by Antoine which will fix the bug (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Nov/0059.html) and which I propose to use in the text unless I think of something better (unlikely). ←
16:07:29 <cgreer> davidwood: ISSUE-84 on literals in non-canonical form
David Wood: ISSUE-84 on literals in non-canonical form ←
16:07:55 <cgreer> ... unless there's something better, this solution is proposed
... unless there's something better, this solution is proposed ←
16:08:07 <cgreer> AZ: accepts his own text
Antoine Zimmermann: accepts his own text ←
16:08:09 <Zakim> +zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2 ←
16:08:35 <PatH> phew
Patrick Hayes: phew ←
16:08:57 <davidwood> PROPOSE to close ISSUE-84 using the fix composed by Antoine which will fix the bug (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Nov/0059.html)
David Wood: PROPOSE to close ISSUE-84 using the fix composed by Antoine which will fix the bug (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Nov/0059.html) ←
16:09:22 <AZ> +1
Antoine Zimmermann: +1 ←
16:09:24 <MacTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
16:09:28 <cgreer> davidwood: If Peter, AZ and Pat are OK, so am I
David Wood: If Peter, AZ and Pat are OK, so am I ←
16:09:30 <davidwood> +1
David Wood: +1 ←
16:09:34 <AndyS> +1
Andy Seaborne: +1 ←
16:09:38 <yvesr> +1
Yves Raimond: +1 ←
16:09:41 <cgreer> RESOLVED to close Issue-84
16:09:49 <davidwood> RESOLVED to close ISSUE-84 using the fix composed by Antoine which will fix the bug (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Nov/0059.html)
David Wood: RESOLVED to close ISSUE-84 using the fix composed by Antoine which will fix the bug (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Nov/0059.html) ←
16:10:13 <davidwood> PROPOSED ISSUE-85 as editorial
David Wood: PROPOSED ISSUE-85 as editorial ←
16:10:22 <AZ> +1
Antoine Zimmermann: +1 ←
16:10:33 <davidwood> Update RDF Semantics to distinguish between the identity of values and the (numeric) equality of values to be in line with XSD 1.1
David Wood: Update RDF Semantics to distinguish between the identity of values and the (numeric) equality of values to be in line with XSD 1.1 ←
16:10:38 <davidwood> +1
David Wood: +1 ←
16:10:59 <zwu2> +1
16:11:00 <MacTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
16:11:03 <cgreer> +1
+1 ←
16:11:03 <gkellogg> +1
Gregg Kellogg: +1 ←
16:11:03 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
16:11:05 <yvesr> +1
Yves Raimond: +1 ←
16:11:09 <PatH> +1
Patrick Hayes: +1 ←
16:11:09 <ericP> agenda proposal: pub CR with SPARQL's predicateObjectList <http://w3.org/brief/MzA2>
Eric Prud'hommeaux: agenda proposal: pub CR with SPARQL's predicateObjectList <http://w3.org/brief/MzA2> ←
16:11:12 <SteveH> +1
Steve Harris: +1 ←
16:11:19 <markus> +1
Markus Lanthaler: +1 ←
16:11:21 <cgreer> RESOLVED to close ISSUE-85 as editorial
RESOLVED to close ISSUE-85 as editorial ←
16:11:53 <davidwood> ISSUE-90 (Define a simple form of “literal value entailment”) may be editorial in Concepts.
David Wood: ISSUE-90 (Define a simple form of “literal value entailment”) may be editorial in Concepts. ←
16:11:59 <davidwood> #90 will be resolved by the new organization of Concepts in which datatyped literals are introduced as part of RDF before RDFS, and the semantics will be reorganized to conform to this.
David Wood: #90 will be resolved by the new organization of Concepts in which datatyped literals are introduced as part of RDF before RDFS, and the semantics will be reorganized to conform to this. ←
16:12:24 <davidwood> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-90 as editorial in RDF Concepts
PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-90 as editorial in RDF Concepts ←
16:12:43 <davidwood> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-90 as editorial in RDF Concepts and RDF Semantics
PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-90 as editorial in RDF Concepts and RDF Semantics ←
16:12:45 <cgreer> PatH: This is a question of ordering.
Patrick Hayes: This is a question of ordering. ←
16:12:58 <cgreer> ... Richard had suggested the reordering
... Richard had suggested the reordering ←
16:13:01 <Zakim> +??P21
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P21 ←
16:13:06 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
16:13:09 <PatH> +1
Patrick Hayes: +1 ←
16:13:12 <davidwood> ack cygri
David Wood: ack cygri ←
16:13:14 <AZ> is it really editorial?
Antoine Zimmermann: is it really editorial? ←
16:13:14 <pchampin> zakim, ??P21 is me
Pierre-Antoine Champin: zakim, ??P21 is me ←
16:13:14 <Zakim> +pchampin; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +pchampin; got it ←
16:13:19 <cgreer> cygri: Maybe this is not editorial
Richard Cyganiak: Maybe this is not editorial ←
16:13:38 <AZ> +1 cygri, I agree
Antoine Zimmermann: +1 cygri, I agree ←
16:13:39 <cgreer> ... It has an effect on the definition of the entailment regimes
... It has an effect on the definition of the entailment regimes ←
16:13:53 <cgreer> Could be different regime in 1.1 from 1.0.
Could be different regime in 1.1 from 1.0. ←
16:13:53 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
16:14:12 <PatH> We can also define the current entailment regimes as a matte of backward compatibility.
Patrick Hayes: We can also define the current entailment regimes as a matte of backward compatibility. ←
16:14:21 <markus> zakim, who is here?
Markus Lanthaler: zakim, who is here? ←
16:14:21 <Zakim> On the phone I see yvesr, cgreer, AndyS, Arnaud (muted), MacTed (muted), gkellogg, cygri, davidwood, markus, AZ, ivan, SteveH, PatH, EricP, zwu2, pchampin
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see yvesr, cgreer, AndyS, Arnaud (muted), MacTed (muted), gkellogg, cygri, davidwood, markus, AZ, ivan, SteveH, PatH, EricP, zwu2, pchampin ←
16:14:24 <Zakim> On IRC I see pchampin, AlexHall, zwu2, PatH, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, markus, SteveH, Arnaud, cgreer, AndyS, cygri, gkellogg, MacTed, LeeF, ivan, gavinc, davidwood, trackbot, mischat,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see pchampin, AlexHall, zwu2, PatH, AZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, markus, SteveH, Arnaud, cgreer, AndyS, cygri, gkellogg, MacTed, LeeF, ivan, gavinc, davidwood, trackbot, mischat, ←
16:14:24 <Zakim> ... manu, ericP, manu1, yvesr, sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: ... manu, ericP, manu1, yvesr, sandro ←
16:14:46 <cgreer> AZ: I don't have anything to add except that Peter said maybe this isn't useful.
Antoine Zimmermann: I don't have anything to add except that Peter said maybe this isn't useful. ←
16:15:02 <cygri> PROPOSED: RDF 1.1 Semantics will define a new entailment regime that encompasses simple entailment and the equality of literal values.
PROPOSED: RDF 1.1 Semantics will define a new entailment regime that encompasses simple entailment and the equality of literal values. ←
16:15:04 <cgreer> ... I remember he didn't feel it was necessary to add something new.
... I remember he didn't feel it was necessary to add something new. ←
16:15:19 <cgreer> davidwood: Didn't Peter say it was all resolved?
David Wood: Didn't Peter say it was all resolved? ←
16:15:25 <cgreer> AZ: Yes
Antoine Zimmermann: Yes ←
16:15:46 <AZ> +1
Antoine Zimmermann: +1 ←
16:15:50 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
16:15:51 <cgreer> davidwood: Richard proposed new entailment regime.
David Wood: Richard proposed new entailment regime. ←
16:15:56 <davidwood> +1
David Wood: +1 ←
16:15:58 <AndyS> +1
Andy Seaborne: +1 ←
16:16:01 <cgreer> +1
+1 ←
16:16:04 <gkellogg> +1
Gregg Kellogg: +1 ←
16:16:06 <MacTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
16:16:09 <zwu2> +1
16:16:15 <ivan> zakim, mute me
Ivan Herman: zakim, mute me ←
16:16:15 <Zakim> ivan should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: ivan should now be muted ←
16:16:19 <davidwood> RESOLVED: RDF 1.1 Semantics will define a new entailment regime that encompasses simple entailment and the equality of literal values.
RESOLVED: RDF 1.1 Semantics will define a new entailment regime that encompasses simple entailment and the equality of literal values. ←
16:16:21 <PatH> +1
Patrick Hayes: +1 ←
16:16:25 <cgreer> RESOLVED: RDF 1.1 Semantics will define a new entailment regime that encompasses simple entailment and the equality of literal values.
RESOLVED: RDF 1.1 Semantics will define a new entailment regime that encompasses simple entailment and the equality of literal values. ←
16:16:29 <davidwood> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-90 as editorial in RDF Concepts and RDF Semantics
PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-90 as editorial in RDF Concepts and RDF Semantics ←
16:16:51 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
16:16:52 <davidwood> +1
David Wood: +1 ←
16:16:52 <AZ> -0.5
Antoine Zimmermann: -0.5 ←
16:17:01 <PatH> +1
Patrick Hayes: +1 ←
16:17:56 <cgreer> AZ: concerned it's not simply editorial
Antoine Zimmermann: concerned it's not simply editorial ←
16:18:00 <MacTed> +0
Ted Thibodeau: +0 ←
16:18:11 <cgreer> davidwood: Richard is going to put changes into the document with help from Pat.
David Wood: Richard is going to put changes into the document with help from Pat. ←
16:18:35 <cgreer> ... This document will define a new entailment regime. Proposal is to close issue.
... This document will define a new entailment regime. Proposal is to close issue. ←
16:18:41 <cygri> PROPOSED: Given the resolution that RDF 1.1 Semantics will have a new entailment regime, ISSUE-90 can be closed as editorial
PROPOSED: Given the resolution that RDF 1.1 Semantics will have a new entailment regime, ISSUE-90 can be closed as editorial ←
16:18:52 <cgreer> ... The semantics will still just be a WD.
... The semantics will still just be a WD. ←
16:19:00 <AZ> +1
Antoine Zimmermann: +1 ←
16:19:03 <yvesr> +1
Yves Raimond: +1 ←
16:19:06 <davidwood> +1
David Wood: +1 ←
16:19:08 <cgreer> +1
+1 ←
16:19:08 <zwu2> +1
16:19:09 <gkellogg> +1
Gregg Kellogg: +1 ←
16:19:13 <MacTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
16:19:15 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
16:19:16 <PatH> +1
Patrick Hayes: +1 ←
16:19:26 <davidwood> RESOLVED: Given the resolution that RDF 1.1 Semantics will have a new entailment regime, ISSUE-90 can be closed as editorial
RESOLVED: Given the resolution that RDF 1.1 Semantics will have a new entailment regime, ISSUE-90 can be closed as editorial ←
16:19:51 <cgreer> davidwood: Only outstanding semantics issues is ISSUE-108
David Wood: Only outstanding semantics issues is ISSUE-108 ←
16:19:56 <davidwood> ISSUE-108 Semantics should reference "XML Schema Datatypes in RDF and OWL"
David Wood: ISSUE-108 Semantics should reference "XML Schema Datatypes in RDF and OWL" ←
16:20:14 <cgreer> davidwood: PatH has said it's an editorial issue, but requires more reading.
David Wood: PatH has said it's an editorial issue, but requires more reading. ←
16:20:22 <cgreer> PatH: I've agreed to do that though
Patrick Hayes: I've agreed to do that though ←
16:20:48 <cgreer> ... We've had a little debate about this; the document we're referring to normatively refers to 2004 semantics
... We've had a little debate about this; the document we're referring to normatively refers to 2004 semantics ←
16:20:57 <cgreer> ... We don't want to chain, but hopefully this isn't an issue.
... We don't want to chain, but hopefully this isn't an issue. ←
16:21:09 <cgreer> davidwood: is this related to 106?
David Wood: is this related to ACTION-166? ←
16:21:24 <davidwood> s/106/ACTION-166/
16:21:35 <davidwood> PatH: no
Patrick Hayes: no [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ] ←
16:21:41 <cgreer> PatH: Not exactly. Identity across datatypes is part of the issue.
Patrick Hayes: Not exactly. Identity across datatypes is part of the issue. ←
16:21:58 <cgreer> ... At that time the XSD draft has been changed by newer doc.
... At that time the XSD draft has been changed by newer doc. ←
16:22:25 <cygri> The "XSD in RDF and OWL" document is just a Note, so it would be an informative reference from Semantics 1.1, I think.
Richard Cyganiak: The "XSD in RDF and OWL" document is just a Note, so it would be an informative reference from Semantics 1.1, I think. ←
16:22:41 <cgreer> davidwood: Sounds like we should receive as editorial and convert to an action.
David Wood: Sounds like we should receive as editorial and convert to an action. ←
16:22:46 <cgreer> PatH: Agreed
Patrick Hayes: Agreed ←
16:22:54 <davidwood> PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-108 by converting it to an action on PatH
PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-108 by converting it to an action on PatH ←
16:23:04 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
16:23:05 <cygri> +1
Richard Cyganiak: +1 ←
16:23:07 <AZ> +1
Antoine Zimmermann: +1 ←
16:23:07 <cgreer> +1
+1 ←
16:23:08 <pchampin> +1
16:23:09 <MacTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
16:23:11 <zwu2> +1
16:23:13 <yvesr> +1
Yves Raimond: +1 ←
16:23:17 <gkellogg> +1
Gregg Kellogg: +1 ←
16:23:23 <PatH> +1
Patrick Hayes: +1 ←
16:23:32 <davidwood> +1
David Wood: +1 ←
16:23:38 <davidwood> RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-108 by converting it to an action on PatH
RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-108 by converting it to an action on PatH ←
16:24:02 <davidwood> ACTION: PatH to informatively reference "XML Schema Datatypes in RDF and OWL"
ACTION: PatH to informatively reference "XML Schema Datatypes in RDF and OWL" ←
16:24:03 <trackbot> Created ACTION-219 - Informatively reference "XML Schema Datatypes in RDF and OWL" [on Patrick Hayes - due 2012-12-26].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-219 - Informatively reference "XML Schema Datatypes in RDF and OWL" [on Patrick Hayes - due 2012-12-26]. ←
16:24:18 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
16:24:32 <cgreer> davidwood: Anything else related to semantics?
David Wood: Anything else related to semantics? ←
16:24:41 <cgreer> Topic: JSON-LD
16:24:56 <cgreer> davidwood: Issue-105.
16:25:19 <cgreer> gkellogg: Issue -- when confronted with a dataset, user expecting a graph should use the default dataset.
Gregg Kellogg: Issue -- when confronted with a dataset, user expecting a graph should use the default dataset. ←
16:25:37 <cgreer> ... This would encompass both JSON-LD and RDFa
... This would encompass both JSON-LD and RDFa ←
16:25:48 <cgreer> ... And the wording is MUST
... And the wording is MUST ←
16:26:09 <PatH> To which I object
Patrick Hayes: To which I object ←
16:26:51 <cgreer> gkellogg: It's reasonable to request JSON-LD rather than a pure graph syntax. As an alternate to RDFa or turtle.
Gregg Kellogg: It's reasonable to request JSON-LD rather than a pure graph syntax. As an alternate to RDFa or turtle. ←
16:27:00 <cgreer> ... It's important to know what to do with dataset information in JSON-LD.
... It's important to know what to do with dataset information in JSON-LD. ←
16:27:04 <PatH> +q
Patrick Hayes: +q ←
16:27:21 <cgreer> ... Do you see an alternative Pat?
... Do you see an alternative Pat? ←
16:27:35 <davidwood> ack PatH
David Wood: ack PatH ←
16:28:04 <cgreer> PatH: One is not to provide a solution. Another is to require a flag to indicate what use of default graph is intended.
Patrick Hayes: One is not to provide a solution. Another is to require a flag to indicate what use of default graph is intended. ←
16:28:23 <cgreer> ... The problem is the MUST. In effect, this imposes this choice on everyone.
... The problem is the MUST. In effect, this imposes this choice on everyone. ←
16:28:41 <cgreer> ... We've had to change one of our examples because it doesn't conform to this rule.
... We've had to change one of our examples because it doesn't conform to this rule. ←
16:28:50 <cgreer> ... The example used default graph for metadata.
... The example used default graph for metadata. ←
16:29:00 <cgreer> ... And there are lots of uses that don't conform to this MUST.
... And there are lots of uses that don't conform to this MUST. ←
16:29:22 <cgreer> gkellogg: If a consumer wants a graph, they must choose the default one when given a dataset.
Gregg Kellogg: If a consumer wants a graph, they must choose the default one when given a dataset. ←
16:29:50 <cgreer> ... In this case, the default dataset is equivalent to the dataset referred to by the name.
... In this case, the default dataset is equivalent to the dataset referred to by the name. ←
16:30:06 <SteveH> that also clashes with how people use TriG and NQuads
Steve Harris: that also clashes with how people use TriG and NQuads ←
16:30:09 <cgreer> ... But this is inconvenient use in JSON-LD. De facto, triples are inserted into the default graph.
... But this is inconvenient use in JSON-LD. De facto, triples are inserted into the default graph. ←
16:30:11 <markus> I think the URL used to retrieve the document should specify what's returned, not the media type (format)
Markus Lanthaler: I think the URL used to retrieve the document should specify what's returned, not the media type (format) ←
16:30:26 <cgreer> PatH: But even if that's true now, it might not be in five years.
Patrick Hayes: But even if that's true now, it might not be in five years. ←
16:30:39 <cgreer> ... The scope of this resolution is too large.
... The scope of this resolution is too large. ←
16:30:48 <markus> if that URL identifies a graph you can use a dataset syntax as well and just use the default graph
Markus Lanthaler: if that URL identifies a graph you can use a dataset syntax as well and just use the default graph ←
16:31:03 <cgreer> ... It seems like there should just be some way to override this.
... It seems like there should just be some way to override this. ←
16:31:03 <markus> if it identifies a dataset, you obviously can't use a graph syntax
Markus Lanthaler: if it identifies a dataset, you obviously can't use a graph syntax ←
16:31:07 <SteveH> it seems like a mess to me
Steve Harris: it seems like a mess to me ←
16:31:16 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
16:31:22 <cgreer> gkellogg: If a property could be placed in the default graph to name where the data should go...
Gregg Kellogg: If a property could be placed in the default graph to name where the data should go... ←
16:31:35 <cgreer> ... We've tried not to get into semantics, but maybe that's the solution.
... We've tried not to get into semantics, but maybe that's the solution. ←
16:31:44 <cgreer> PatH: That's not getting into semantics.
Patrick Hayes: That's not getting into semantics. ←
16:31:57 <cgreer> ... We just need some 'unless' clause as an escape valve.
... We just need some 'unless' clause as an escape valve. ←
16:32:12 <cgreer> ... Some way to switch off this behavior.
... Some way to switch off this behavior. ←
16:32:23 <Zakim> -ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: -ivan ←
16:32:48 <cgreer> gkellogg: The way to do this is to put a triple into the default graph to identify a named graph.
Gregg Kellogg: The way to do this is to put a triple into the default graph to identify a named graph. ←
16:32:55 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
16:33:04 <cgreer> ... Not specific to JSON-LD... Could be done elsewhere too.
... Not specific to JSON-LD... Could be done elsewhere too. ←
16:33:06 <pchampin> q+
16:33:29 <cgreer> PatH: If JSON-LD maps datasets to graphs in a particular way, interoperability is at risk unless everyone does this.
Patrick Hayes: If JSON-LD maps datasets to graphs in a particular way, interoperability is at risk unless everyone does this. ←
16:33:51 <cgreer> ... This is broken symmetry. No other constraint to counter.
... This is broken symmetry. No other constraint to counter. ←
16:33:52 <davidwood> ack cygri
David Wood: ack cygri ←
16:34:19 <cgreer> cygri: The reason why this is a difficult issue is that the group tried unsuccessfully to define a semantics for datasets.
Richard Cyganiak: The reason why this is a difficult issue is that the group tried unsuccessfully to define a semantics for datasets. ←
16:34:39 <cgreer> ... If the group had succeeded in that, we'd know what 'dataset with default graph' means.
... If the group had succeeded in that, we'd know what 'dataset with default graph' means. ←
16:34:58 <cgreer> ... We don't have an equivalence at this time.
... We don't have an equivalence at this time. ←
16:35:07 <PatH> +q
Patrick Hayes: +q ←
16:35:17 <PatH> -q
Patrick Hayes: -q ←
16:35:23 <cgreer> ... One way forward is to reconsider our decision to say nothing about dataset semantics
... One way forward is to reconsider our decision to say nothing about dataset semantics ←
16:35:55 <cgreer> ... If we have one sentence -- if we have a dataset with the default graph, this entails an RDF graph containing the triples of the default graph.
... If we have one sentence -- if we have a dataset with the default graph, this entails an RDF graph containing the triples of the default graph. ←
16:36:07 <cgreer> ... This issue would be solved by such a statement.
... This issue would be solved by such a statement. ←
16:36:14 <cgreer> ... Another possibility is to say nothing.
... Another possibility is to say nothing. ←
16:36:18 <PatH> The reason we have no semantics is that we could not agree, so left it open. Which is why I don't want to (in effect) close it for a poorer reason than the ones that blocked our progress.
Patrick Hayes: The reason we have no semantics is that we could not agree, so left it open. Which is why I don't want to (in effect) close it for a poorer reason than the ones that blocked our progress. ←
16:36:30 <cgreer> ... People will just do what Gregg has described anyway.
... People will just do what Gregg has described anyway. ←
16:37:00 <cgreer> ... We can't say it. Unfortunate but that's an alternative.
... We can't say it. Unfortunate but that's an alternative. ←
16:37:21 <cgreer> davidwood: Some communities will do what gkellogg has said, regardless.
David Wood: Some communities will do what gkellogg has said, regardless. ←
16:37:25 <davidwood> ack pchampin
David Wood: ack pchampin ←
16:37:47 <pchampin> application/ld+json;singlegraphuri=http://example.org/
Pierre-Antoine Champin: application/ld+json;singlegraphuri=http://example.org/ ←
16:37:53 <cgreer> pchampin: That's an idea, but Pat is suggesting that this is default behavior. Maybe media type could override.
Pierre-Antoine Champin: That's an idea, but Pat is suggesting that this is default behavior. Maybe media type could override. ←
16:38:13 <gkellogg> q+
Gregg Kellogg: q+ ←
16:38:18 <cgreer> ... THis is just from the top of my head, but it's an idea.
... THis is just from the top of my head, but it's an idea. ←
16:38:28 <PatH> I like that.
Patrick Hayes: I like that. ←
16:38:28 <cygri> this works in theory, but not in practice. people will not bother with it.
Richard Cyganiak: this works in theory, but not in practice. people will not bother with it. ←
16:38:40 <cgreer> davidwood: Although this is a good idea, we shouldn't rely on media types. They're just a problem in practice.
David Wood: Although this is a good idea, we shouldn't rely on media types. They're just a problem in practice. ←
16:38:46 <yvesr> +1 on cygri
Yves Raimond: +1 on cygri ←
16:38:46 <davidwood> ack gkellogg
David Wood: ack gkellogg ←
16:38:55 <AndyS> app/ld+json; want=graph (use the media type params)
Andy Seaborne: app/ld+json; want=graph (use the media type params) ←
16:39:12 <cgreer> gkellogg: Something similar to pchamin. That's compelling. I like the idea of some way to override this default behavior.
Gregg Kellogg: Something similar to pchamin. That's compelling. I like the idea of some way to override this default behavior. ←
16:39:22 <ericP> do we have any other mechanism for passing operating parameters besides media type?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: do we have any other mechanism for passing operating parameters besides media type? ←
16:39:31 <cgreer> ... I like the 'a triple in the default graph' to solve this problem.
... I like the 'a triple in the default graph' to solve this problem. ←
16:39:56 <cgreer> ... If you want to assign a named graph, the sensible place to do this is in the default graph, but the principle data in that circumstance is the named graph.
... If you want to assign a named graph, the sensible place to do this is in the default graph, but the principal data in that circumstance is the named graph. ←
16:39:58 <ericP> or do we want to add processing instructions to turtle...
Eric Prud'hommeaux: or do we want to add processing instructions to turtle... ←
16:40:12 <cgreer> s/principle/principal
16:40:42 <cgreer> ... You might not know until the end of the doc which graph the data resides in (potential objection)
... You might not know until the end of the doc which graph the data resides in (potential objection) ←
16:40:49 <cgreer> PatH: Does it have to be a triple in the graph?
Patrick Hayes: Does it have to be a triple in the graph? ←
16:41:07 <pchampin> q+
16:41:12 <cgreer> davidwood: pchampin's idea was basically a processing instruction
David Wood: pchampin's idea was basically a processing instruction ←
16:41:20 <davidwood> ack pchampin
David Wood: ack pchampin ←
16:41:21 <cgreer> pchampin: If this is just a JSON-LD problem
Pierre-Antoine Champin: If this is just a JSON-LD problem ←
16:41:29 <cgreer> ... the couldn't it be in the context?
... the couldn't it be in the context? ←
16:41:35 <cygri> it's not just a json-ld problem
Richard Cyganiak: it's not just a json-ld problem ←
16:41:38 <markus> I don't think it's just a JSON-LD problem
Markus Lanthaler: I don't think it's just a JSON-LD problem ←
16:41:44 <cgreer> gkellogg: contexts are shared.
Gregg Kellogg: contexts are shared. ←
16:41:44 <cygri> same for N-Quads and TriG
Richard Cyganiak: same for N-Quads and TriG ←
16:41:53 <cgreer> ... it would have to go into the document.
... it would have to go into the document. ←
16:42:16 <cgreer> ... In a JSON-LD specific way, could be a keyword in the top-level of the document, but this seems the wrong layer.
... In a JSON-LD specific way, could be a keyword in the top-level of the document, but this seems the wrong layer. ←
16:42:16 <PatH> Its not really a json-ld issue. It should be a matter for the RDF WG.
Patrick Hayes: Its not really a json-ld issue. It should be a matter for the RDF WG. ←
16:42:22 <cgreer> ... it's a dataset issue.
... it's a dataset issue. ←
16:42:34 <cgreer> pchampin: Agreed, but there's no concensus as to how to solve it there.
Pierre-Antoine Champin: Agreed, but there's no concensus as to how to solve it there. ←
16:42:53 <cgreer> ... seems like it should belong to the JSON-LD context.
... seems like it should belong to the JSON-LD context. ←
16:43:02 <cgreer> ... but a more general solution would be preferable.
... but a more general solution would be preferable. ←
16:43:14 <davidwood> STRAWPOLL: if we have a dataset with the default graph, this entails an RDF graph containing the triples of the default graph.
STRAWPOLL: if we have a dataset with the default graph, this entails an RDF graph containing the triples of the default graph. ←
16:43:43 <SteveH> -1 I think that's quite different to how current tools work
Steve Harris: -1 I think that's quite different to how current tools work ←
16:44:02 <MacTed> hm. should "with the default graph" be "with *a* default graph"?
Ted Thibodeau: hm. should "with the default graph" be "with *a* default graph"? ←
16:44:03 <cgreer> gkellogg: That's OK -- with the provision that this shouldn't be the case if it's specified differently.
Gregg Kellogg: That's OK -- with the provision that this shouldn't be the case if it's specified differently. ←
16:44:04 <cygri> maybe even more minimal? A dataset with only default graph G is logically equivalent to a graph G?
Richard Cyganiak: maybe even more minimal? A dataset with only default graph G is logically equivalent to a graph G? ←
16:44:12 <cgreer> pchampin: That doesn't work -
Pierre-Antoine Champin: That doesn't work - ←
16:44:16 <AndyS> -0.7 (it's JSON-LD issue of one content type, not a general issue)
Andy Seaborne: -0.7 (it's JSON-LD issue of one content type, not a general issue) ←
16:44:33 <cgreer> davidwood: Can you name some tools that work this way Steve?
David Wood: Can you name some tools that work this way Steve? ←
16:44:37 <pchampin> you can't expect the default graph to assert that it should not be asserted
Pierre-Antoine Champin: you can't expect the default graph to assert that it should not be asserted ←
16:44:44 <cygri> AndyS, not true. it applies equally to all dataset syntaxes.
Richard Cyganiak: AndyS, not true. it applies equally to all dataset syntaxes. ←
16:45:01 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aacc
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.603.897.aacc ←
16:45:15 <cgreer> SteveH: If you load a default graph into a triple store, it will generally be assigned the name from the URL it came from.
Steve Harris: If you load a default graph into a triple store, it will generally be assigned the name from the URL it came from. ←
16:45:16 <AndyS> cygri - other formats have two content types - graph and dataset
Andy Seaborne: cygri - other formats have two content types - graph and dataset ←
16:45:20 <markus> agree with cygri, this applies to all dataset syntaxes
Markus Lanthaler: agree with cygri, this applies to all dataset syntaxes ←
16:45:21 <cgreer> davidwood: Really?
David Wood: Really? ←
16:45:29 <cgreer> PatH: Why is this relevant?
Patrick Hayes: Why is this relevant? ←
16:45:38 <Souri> zakim, aacc is me
Souripriya Das: zakim, aacc is me ←
16:45:38 <Zakim> +Souri; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Souri; got it ←
16:45:42 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
16:45:43 <cygri> AndyS, not true�
Richard Cyganiak: AndyS, not true� ←
16:45:59 <cgreer> PatH: Even if we agreed that a dataset is just the default graph, this doesn't give JSON-LD the license to throw away default graphs.
Patrick Hayes: Even if we agreed that a dataset is just the default graph, this doesn't give JSON-LD the license to throw away default graphs. ←
16:46:02 <cygri> there is only one media type for TriG
Richard Cyganiak: there is only one media type for TriG ←
16:46:10 <cgreer> gkellogg: It would be the consumer that's throwing graphs away, not JSON-LD
Gregg Kellogg: It would be the consumer that's throwing graphs away, not JSON-LD ←
16:46:21 <AndyS> cygri - do you claim that trig has the same content type as Turtle?
Andy Seaborne: cygri - do you claim that trig has the same content type as Turtle? ←
16:46:44 <cgreer> ... If you're loading a JSON-LD into a named graph...
... If you're loading a JSON-LD into a named graph... ←
16:46:45 <AndyS> If I ask for TTL, I get triples, not quads.
Andy Seaborne: If I ask for TTL, I get triples, not quads. ←
16:46:48 <SteveH> I think whoever is speaking just came up with a really good argument for not conflating graph and dataset data formats
Steve Harris: I think whoever is speaking just came up with a really good argument for not conflating graph and dataset data formats ←
16:46:54 <cygri> AndyS, TriG and turtle are different formats
Richard Cyganiak: AndyS, TriG and turtle are different formats ←
16:46:56 <cgreer> ... but the name of that graph is not something we specify
... but the name of that graph is not something we specify ←
16:47:14 <cgreer> ... Richard's proposal was that, if the default graph entails a graph, then the triples are from the default dataset.
... Richard's proposal was that, if the default graph entails a graph, then the triples are from the default dataset. ←
16:47:33 <AndyS> In JSON-LD can't ask for triples only as things stand today.
Andy Seaborne: In JSON-LD can't ask for triples only as things stand today. ←
16:47:39 <cgreer> ... the only way out of this is to say, "unless otherwise specified use triples from default graph"
... the only way out of this is to say, "unless otherwise specified use triples from default graph" ←
16:47:45 <cgreer> ... but how to specify otherwise
... but how to specify otherwise ←
16:47:57 <cgreer> ... we'd create a predicate in JSON-LD namespace that could define this.
... we'd create a predicate in JSON-LD namespace that could define this. ←
16:48:08 <cygri> AndyS, you can't do that either in TriG or N-Quads
Richard Cyganiak: AndyS, you can't do that either in TriG or N-Quads ←
16:48:15 <cgreer> ... doing so allows us, later, to create a more generic predicate.
... doing so allows us, later, to create a more generic predicate. ←
16:48:34 <AndyS> q+
Andy Seaborne: q+ ←
16:48:45 <davidwood> ack AndyS
David Wood: ack AndyS ←
16:48:46 <cgreer> davidwood: But all other syntaxes are for datasets or single graphs.
David Wood: But all other syntaxes are for datasets or single graphs. ←
16:49:16 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
16:49:22 <cgreer> AndyS: I'm not disputing how trig works, but I get triples from turtle, and I can't see whether I get quads or triples from JSON-LD
Andy Seaborne: I'm not disputing how trig works, but I get triples from turtle, and I can't see whether I get quads or triples from JSON-LD ←
16:49:39 <cgreer> ... we could say that JSON-LD only produces quads.
... we could say that JSON-LD only produces quads. ←
16:49:52 <cgreer> ... There's talk of a JSON-LD document only holding a single graph.
... There's talk of a JSON-LD document only holding a single graph. ←
16:50:21 <davidwood> ack cygri
David Wood: ack cygri ←
16:50:25 <SteveH> +1 to AndyS
Steve Harris: +1 to AndyS ←
16:50:47 <cgreer> cygri: The fundamental difference in JSON-LD is... if you're getting trig, you don't know if you're getting triples in the default graph or named graphs.
Richard Cyganiak: The fundamental difference in JSON-LD is... if you're getting trig, you don't know if you're getting triples in the default graph or named graphs. ←
16:50:54 <cgreer> the expectation is that turtle is for publishing graphs
the expectation is that turtle is for publishing graphs ←
16:51:08 <cgreer> cygri: TriG is for shipping datasets.
Richard Cyganiak: TriG is for shipping datasets. ←
16:51:13 <SteveH> It's not historic - it's a usability issue IMHO
Steve Harris: It's not historic - it's a usability issue IMHO ←
16:51:27 <cgreer> AndyS: The spec says that trig delivers quads.
Andy Seaborne: The spec says that trig delivers quads. ←
16:51:33 <cgreer> cygri: And same for JSON-LD.
Richard Cyganiak: And same for JSON-LD. ←
16:51:40 <cgreer> ... but you don't know if you're going to have any.
... but you don't know if you're going to have any. ←
16:51:59 <cgreer> AndyS: I'd be happy for JSON-LD to deliver datasets rather than quads.
Andy Seaborne: I'd be happy for JSON-LD to deliver datasets rather than quads. ←
16:52:13 <PatH> +1 to andy
Patrick Hayes: +1 to andy ←
16:52:36 <Zakim> +??P0
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P0 ←
16:52:41 <cgreer> AndyS: If they've asked for triples and they get something else, that's a problem. If the decision has moved, the client can extract triples.
Andy Seaborne: If they've asked for triples and they get something else, that's a problem. If the decision has moved, the client can extract triples. ←
16:52:46 <manu> zakim, I am ??P0
Manu Sporny: zakim, I am ??P0 ←
16:52:46 <Zakim> +manu; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +manu; got it ←
16:53:05 <cgreer> cygri: If the client just wants triples, you should say what the client should do in this case.
Richard Cyganiak: If the client just wants triples, you should say what the client should do in this case. ←
16:53:07 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
16:53:21 <SteveH> surely that's up to the client? it's a data squash of some kind
Steve Harris: surely that's up to the client? it's a data squash of some kind ←
16:53:23 <markus> We are clearly saying in the spec that JSON-LD is a dataset syntax.. we only said that if the client wants a graph, it must use only the default graph
Markus Lanthaler: We are clearly saying in the spec that JSON-LD is a dataset syntax.. we only said that if the client wants a graph, it must use only the default graph ←
16:53:34 <cgreer> ... And it's not just a JSON-LD issue -- shipping quads or triples is a problem in more than just this format.
... And it's not just a JSON-LD issue -- shipping quads or triples is a problem in more than just this format. ←
16:53:42 <PatH> q
Patrick Hayes: q ←
16:53:52 <davidwood> q+ PatH
David Wood: q+ PatH ←
16:54:09 <cgreer> cygri: JSON-LD is the first format that we want to do both.
Richard Cyganiak: JSON-LD is the first format that we want to do both. ←
16:54:39 <SteveH> cygri, I *strongly* disagree
Steve Harris: cygri, I *strongly* disagree ←
16:54:54 <cgreer> AndyS: dataset is third-party publishing.
Andy Seaborne: dataset is third-party publishing. ←
16:54:59 <SteveH> yeah, graphs and datasets are very different
Steve Harris: yeah, graphs and datasets are very different ←
16:55:21 <cgreer> cygri: You can use either format in either way. You can ship a triG file that uses only hash URIS.
Richard Cyganiak: You can use either format in either way. You can ship a triG file that uses only hash URIS. ←
16:55:33 <cgreer> .. and that's fine for provenance, but it's not a third-party publishing case.
.. and that's fine for provenance, but it's not a third-party publishing case. ←
16:55:41 <cgreer> ... the distinction isn't so clear.
... the distinction isn't so clear. ←
16:56:12 <davidwood> ack PatH
David Wood: ack PatH ←
16:56:13 <cgreer> AndyS: I think shipping triples is the primary way of exchanging information on the semantic web.
Andy Seaborne: I think shipping triples is the primary way of exchanging information on the semantic web. ←
16:56:38 <cgreer> PatH: Summing up -- if this is not just a JSON-LD issue, but is of the relationship between datasets and graphs
Patrick Hayes: Summing up -- if this is not just a JSON-LD issue, but is of the relationship between datasets and graphs ←
16:56:46 <cgreer> ... that is, the semantics of datastets.
... that is, the semantics of datastets. ←
16:57:01 <cgreer> AndyS, got it.
AndyS, got it. ←
16:57:15 <AndyS> for me, datasets are a packaging, like a tar or zip file.
Andy Seaborne: for me, datasets are a packaging, like a tar or zip file. ←
16:57:20 <SteveH> +1 to PatH
Steve Harris: +1 to PatH ←
16:57:24 <SteveH> +1 to AndyS
Steve Harris: +1 to AndyS ←
16:57:50 <cgreer> PatH: We've been avoiding this issue, and should continue to avoid it.
Patrick Hayes: We've been avoiding this issue, and should continue to avoid it. ←
16:58:02 <AndyS> We can solve the issue raised for JSON-LD if it is clear it's a dataset format.
Andy Seaborne: We can solve the issue raised for JSON-LD if it is clear it's a dataset format. ←
16:58:23 <cgreer> PatH: If community is using default graph in some inonsistent way, they'll run into problems.
Patrick Hayes: If community is using default graph in some inonsistent way, they'll run into problems. ←
16:58:25 <gkellogg> It is clear it's a dataset, but it _will_ be used where people just want a graph.
Gregg Kellogg: It is clear it's a dataset, but it _will_ be used where people just want a graph. ←
16:58:41 <cgreer> cygri: But this is not why we stopped on dataset semantics.
Richard Cyganiak: But this is not why we stopped on dataset semantics. ←
16:58:43 <Zakim> + +1.408.992.aadd
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.408.992.aadd ←
16:59:14 <cgreer> ... there were issues. Here we're exploring some minimal statement about datasets and graphs, just tying down the default graph assertion in JSON-LD documents.
... there were issues. Here we're exploring some minimal statement about datasets and graphs, just tying down the default graph assertion in JSON-LD documents. ←
16:59:17 <SteveH> gkellogg, then you're going to have issues, in practice, with people that aren't deeply involved in the community - it's not obvious to do when you expect one and get the other
Steve Harris: gkellogg, then you're going to have issues, in practice, with people that aren't deeply involved in the community - it's not obvious to do when you expect one and get the other ←
16:59:22 <AndyS> (NB the WG objective was to serialize a graph , not a dataset)
Andy Seaborne: (NB the WG objective was to serialize a graph , not a dataset) ←
16:59:43 <gkellogg> steveh: yes, so we'd better figure out how to make this clear.
Gregg Kellogg: steveh, yes, so we'd better figure out how to make this clear. ←
16:59:45 <cgreer> PatH: I don't object to assertion of default graph. Object that the default graph IS the dataset.
Patrick Hayes: I don't object to assertion of default graph. Object that the default graph IS the dataset. ←
17:00:00 <AndyS> Some of the language is graphish to me (e.g. "JSON-LD is designed as a lightweight syntax to express Linked Data") Its (only?) a matter of emphasis.
Andy Seaborne: Some of the language is graphish to me (e.g. "JSON-LD is designed as a lightweight syntax to express Linked Data") Its (only?) a matter of emphasis. ←
17:00:03 <gkellogg> s/steveh:/steveh,/
17:00:03 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
17:00:10 <SteveH> gkellogg, that's bolting the stable door after the horse has run off IMHO
Steve Harris: gkellogg, that's bolting the stable door after the horse has run off IMHO ←
17:00:29 <cgreer> davidwood: We've shown a lack of concensus.
David Wood: We've shown a lack of concensus. ←
17:00:57 <cgreer> gkellogg: In absence of any other guidance, developers will do what they feel they need to.
Gregg Kellogg: In absence of any other guidance, developers will do what they feel they need to. ←
17:01:13 <PatH> "probably" =/= MUST
Patrick Hayes: "probably" =/= MUST ←
17:01:19 <AndyS> q+
Andy Seaborne: q+ ←
17:01:25 <cgreer> ... in JSON-LD group we can go back and talk about adding a property to handle this.
... in JSON-LD group we can go back and talk about adding a property to handle this. ←
17:01:40 <cgreer> ... shortsighted to do only for JSON-LD since we expect the same usage pattern elsewhere.
... shortsighted to do only for JSON-LD since we expect the same usage pattern elsewhere. ←
17:01:45 <davidwood> ack AndyS
David Wood: ack AndyS ←
17:01:58 <cgreer> AndyS: Putting the markup in the document doesn't work for me.
Andy Seaborne: Putting the markup in the document doesn't work for me. ←
17:02:01 <SteveH> Turtle is something like 10 years old, TriG a bit less, but it's not been an issue so far - �that should tell you something
Steve Harris: Turtle is something like 10 years old, TriG a bit less, but it's not been an issue so far - �that should tell you something ←
17:02:08 <SteveH> +1 to AndyS
Steve Harris: +1 to AndyS ←
17:02:14 <cgreer> ... The request for the document already knows context.. Too late to put it inside the document.
... The request for the document already knows context.. Too late to put it inside the document. ←
17:02:33 <cgreer> gkellogg: Idea is that different endpoints might be tailored for particular graph names.
Gregg Kellogg: Idea is that different endpoints might be tailored for particular graph names. ←
17:02:52 <PatH> +0.5 to Andy, unfortunately.
Patrick Hayes: +0.5 to Andy, unfortunately. ←
17:03:03 <cgreer> ... That would be a way for providers to serve both. Looking at the triples is more useful in long run though.
... That would be a way for providers to serve both. Looking at the triples is more useful in long run though. ←
17:03:04 <markus> I think the point is that the consumer specifies what it wants by the URL it uses to retrieve the document and not the media type
Markus Lanthaler: I think the point is that the consumer specifies what it wants by the URL it uses to retrieve the document and not the media type ←
17:03:06 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
17:03:19 <PatH> Hi Peter. We finished semantics an hour ago :-)
Patrick Hayes: Hi Peter. We finished semantics an hour ago :-) ←
17:03:22 <cgreer> AndyS: If we have to post-process to find out the graph name, that's probably too late.
Andy Seaborne: If we have to post-process to find out the graph name, that's probably too late. ←
17:03:59 <cgreer> gkellogg: That's reasonable to state in best practice. Those serving datasets and graphs should provide clear differentiated endpoints.
Gregg Kellogg: That's reasonable to state in best practice. Those serving datasets and graphs should provide clear differentiated endpoints. ←
17:04:17 <cgreer> ... If we don't encode it in the document, we've lost the provenance.
... If we don't encode it in the document, we've lost the provenance. ←
17:04:39 <davidwood> ack cygri
David Wood: ack cygri ←
17:04:39 <cgreer> AndyS: It sounds like a reasonable expectation (differentiated endpoints)
Andy Seaborne: It sounds like a reasonable expectation (differentiated endpoints) ←
17:04:43 <AndyS> q?
Andy Seaborne: q? ←
17:05:01 <PatH> Yes
Patrick Hayes: Yes ←
17:05:01 <cgreer> cygri: a triple in the document to specify which graph name... Not a pleasing idea.
Richard Cyganiak: a triple in the document to specify which graph name... Not a pleasing idea. ←
17:05:03 <SteveH> +1 to cygri
Steve Harris: +1 to cygri ←
17:05:13 <manu> I agree with Richard - don't like a triple pointing out the "primary topic graph"
Manu Sporny: I agree with Richard - don't like a triple pointing out the "primary topic graph" ←
17:05:14 <markus> I also don't like the idea of putting a triple in the document to specify which graph should be used
Markus Lanthaler: I also don't like the idea of putting a triple in the document to specify which graph should be used ←
17:05:25 <davidwood> pfps, this is about disambiguating datasets from graphs, which was brought up by a JSON-LD use case.
David Wood: pfps, this is about disambiguating datasets from graphs, which was brought up by a JSON-LD use case. ←
17:05:32 <SteveH> it's too late by then, makes ordering of the document matter - very bad
Steve Harris: it's too late by then, makes ordering of the document matter - very bad ←
17:05:32 <cgreer> ... assuming you get quads. If you just get triples, and say nothing about the graph name, there are two alternatives... default graph or request URI.
... assuming you get quads. If you just get triples, and say nothing about the graph name, there are two alternatives... default graph or request URI. ←
17:05:36 <PatH> issue-105
17:05:56 <cgreer> ... the third option, encoding in a triple, adds a third answer to the two obvious ones.
... the third option, encoding in a triple, adds a third answer to the two obvious ones. ←
17:06:01 <cgreer> ... why add a third one?
... why add a third one? ←
17:06:54 <gavinc> TopBraid Suite records the "name" of a graph in a turtle document in a magic comment. In RDF/XML it does what the original named graph paper suggested, the first xml:base attribute is the graph name. </historical context>
Gavin Carothers: TopBraid Suite records the "name" of a graph in a turtle document in a magic comment. In RDF/XML it does what the original named graph paper suggested, the first xml:base attribute is the graph name. </historical context> ←
17:06:58 <cgreer> PatH: One more idea. Agreed with the detractors.
Patrick Hayes: One more idea. Agreed with the detractors. ←
17:07:09 <cgreer> ... how about a triple that cancels the default graph assertion
... how about a triple that cancels the default graph assertion ←
17:07:20 <Zakim> -zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: -zwu2 ←
17:07:33 <cgreer> ... At least apps will not silently do the wrong thing with this solution.
... At least apps will not silently do the wrong thing with this solution. ←
17:07:39 <pfps> who is going to produce a semantics for this magic triple?
Peter Patel-Schneider: who is going to produce a semantics for this magic triple? ←
17:07:46 <zwu2> have to go to another meeting. bye and happy holidays!
Zhe Wu: have to go to another meeting. bye and happy holidays! ←
17:07:48 <cgreer> ... If application is expecting a graph, and has got a datastore.
... If application is expecting a graph, and has got a dataset. ←
17:08:00 <cgreer> s/datastore/dataset
17:08:15 <cgreer> cygri: In that case couldn't the publisher just not provide default graph?
Richard Cyganiak: In that case couldn't the publisher just not provide default graph? ←
17:08:25 <cgreer> PathH: In this case they can just add an empty graph.
Patrick Hayes: In this case they can just add an empty graph. ←
17:08:35 <cgreer> ... point taken.
... point taken. ←
17:08:44 <SteveH> empty default graph is a common case though, in datasets
Steve Harris: empty default graph is a common case though, in datasets ←
17:09:03 <cgreer> PatH: If I want to use the default graph for some other purpose (from dataset data).
Patrick Hayes: If I want to use the default graph for some other purpose (from dataset data). ←
17:09:27 <cgreer> ... The dataset will be misread if JSON-LD obliges insertion into default graph.
... The dataset will be misread if JSON-LD obliges insertion into default graph. ←
17:09:37 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
17:09:45 <markus> PatH, what about if we augment the rule to say that only use the default graph if there are no named graphs
Markus Lanthaler: PatH, what about if we augment the rule to say that only use the default graph if there are no named graphs ←
17:10:29 <cgreer> PatH: The default graph in my app might be metadata. I don't want data from a JSON-LD document to be used in my default graph.
Patrick Hayes: The default graph in my app might be metadata. I don't want data from a JSON-LD document to be used in my default graph. ←
17:10:40 <cgreer> cygri: What's the harm?
Richard Cyganiak: What's the harm? ←
17:11:03 <cgreer> PatH: Differentiating between metadata and data.
Patrick Hayes: Differentiating between metadata and data. ←
17:11:06 <markus> q+
Markus Lanthaler: q+ ←
17:11:13 <davidwood> ack markus
David Wood: ack markus ←
17:11:28 <pfps> but the triples in the default graph are just triples, and you get their meaning, if they are *meta-* then you get 'meta', but so what?
Peter Patel-Schneider: but the triples in the default graph are just triples, and you get their meaning, if they are *meta-* then you get 'meta', but so what? ←
17:11:30 <AndyS> Have come to a position specificially for JSON-LD so it can progress?
Andy Seaborne: Have come to a position specificially for JSON-LD so it can progress? ←
17:11:37 <markus> sorry connection is probably too bad
Markus Lanthaler: sorry connection is probably too bad ←
17:11:51 <markus> what about if we augment the rule to say that only use the default graph if there are no named graphs
Markus Lanthaler: what about if we augment the rule to say that only use the default graph if there are no named graphs ←
17:11:57 <PatH> You are welcome
Patrick Hayes: You are welcome ←
17:12:03 <cgreer> davidwood: we celebrate the WG's ability to go nowhere
David Wood: we celebrate the WG's ability to go nowhere ←
17:13:02 <pfps> 8am PT is early already - 7:45 is ever so much more so
Peter Patel-Schneider: 8am PT is early already - 7:45 is ever so much more so ←
17:14:01 <PatH> 15 minutes more, in fact.
Patrick Hayes: 15 minutes more, in fact. ←
17:14:09 <Arnaud> thanks Eric, but no thanks :)
Arnaud Le Hors: thanks Eric, but no thanks :) ←
17:15:02 <cgreer> ericP: We had request to publish turtle as CR... adopting SPARQL grammar for certain productions.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: We had request to publish turtle as CR... adopting SPARQL grammar for certain productions. ←
17:15:02 <PatH> +1 to adopting the turtle grammar as Eric proposes.
Patrick Hayes: +1 to adopting the turtle grammar as Eric proposes. ←
17:15:23 <Zakim> -manu
Zakim IRC Bot: -manu ←
17:15:38 <ericP> agenda
Eric Prud'hommeaux: agenda ←
17:15:39 <PatH> Gotta leave. Bye.
Patrick Hayes: Gotta leave. Bye. ←
17:15:56 <Zakim> -PatH
Zakim IRC Bot: -PatH ←
17:16:02 <ericP> PROPOSED pub CR with SPARQL's predicateObjectList per <http://w3.org/brief/MzA2>
Eric Prud'hommeaux: PROPOSED pub CR with SPARQL's predicateObjectList per <http://w3.org/brief/MzA2> ←
17:16:13 <Zakim> -markus
Zakim IRC Bot: -markus ←
17:17:05 <ericP> PROPOSED pub CR with SPARQL's predicateObjectList per <http://w3.org/brief/MzA2> and strike the text about looking for a nice representation
Eric Prud'hommeaux: PROPOSED pub CR with SPARQL's predicateObjectList per <http://w3.org/brief/MzA2> and strike the text about looking for a nice representation ←
17:17:26 <cgreer> RIght, got it
RIght, got it ←
17:19:06 <Zakim> -yvesr
Zakim IRC Bot: -yvesr ←
17:19:40 <AndyS> looks OK at a quick scan
Andy Seaborne: looks OK at a quick scan ←
17:19:48 <Zakim> -gkellogg
Zakim IRC Bot: -gkellogg ←
17:19:49 <Zakim> -Souri
Zakim IRC Bot: -Souri ←
17:19:50 <Zakim> -AZ
Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ ←
17:19:51 <Zakim> -MacTed
Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed ←
17:19:51 <Zakim> -cygri
Zakim IRC Bot: -cygri ←
17:19:52 <Zakim> -SteveH
Zakim IRC Bot: -SteveH ←
17:19:55 <Zakim> -Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud ←
17:19:57 <Zakim> -davidwood
Zakim IRC Bot: -davidwood ←
17:20:12 <Zakim> -AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS ←
17:20:16 <pfps> ?
17:20:32 <Zakim> - +1.408.992.aadd
Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.408.992.aadd ←
17:20:38 <Zakim> -cgreer
Zakim IRC Bot: -cgreer ←
17:22:08 <gavinc> ericP, confirm that http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/rev/30fedfe973b2 is the only required change
Gavin Carothers: ericP, confirm that http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/rev/30fedfe973b2 is the only required change ←
Formatted by CommonScribe