edit

RDF Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 03 October 2012

Seen
Andy Seaborne, Antoine Zimmermann, Arnaud Le Hors, Charles Greer, David Wood, Eric Prud'hommeaux, Gavin Carothers, Gregg Kellogg, Guus Schreiber, Ivan Herman, Lee Feigenbaum, Patrick Hayes, Peter Patel-Schneider, Pierre-Antoine Champin, Richard Cyganiak, Sandro Hawke, Scott Bauer, Steve Harris, Ted Thibodeau, Yves Raimond
Chair
David Wood
Scribe
Pierre-Antoine Champin
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions
  1. This Working Group will not provide a Formal Semantics for RDF Datasets or for our Dataset Syntax (eg trig). The WG may publish some information about dataset semantics in WG NOTES. link
  2. We will produce a W3C Recommendation for a dataset syntax, similar to TriG and to SPARQL's named graph syntax.  This does not preclude recommending a syntax like n-quads. link
  3. We'll request a media-type for this syntax which is different from the media-type for Turtle.  (That is, we will not consider this language to supplant Turtle and take over the name, becoming the new "Turtle", as was once proposed.) link
  4. Our dataset syntax will allow for the expression of empty named graphs, whatever their semantics might be. link
  5. We will call a recommended dataset syntax "TriG", but informally and in the media type, "trig". link
  6. In our TriG dataset syntax, a "=" MUST NOT appear between the name and the graph. link
  7. In our TriG dataset syntax, the case-insensitive keyword "graph" MUST NOT appear before the name, in a name-graph pair.  This is to be an "at risk" feature. link
Topics
14:17:56 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/10/03-rdf-wg-irc

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14:17:58 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

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14:18:00 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394

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14:18:00 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 42 minutes

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14:18:01 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:18:01 <trackbot> Date: 03 October 2012
14:18:07 <ivan> Chair: David Wood
14:58:47 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started

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Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started

14:58:54 <Zakim> +davidwood

Zakim IRC Bot: +davidwood

14:59:08 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?

David Wood: Zakim, who is here?

14:59:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see davidwood

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see davidwood

14:59:09 <Zakim> On IRC I see pfps, ScottB, Zakim, RRSAgent, AndyS, mischat, MacTed, ivan, LeeF, SteveH, manu1, manu, gkellogg, yvesr, davidwood, trackbot, ericP, sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see pfps, ScottB, Zakim, RRSAgent, AndyS, mischat, MacTed, ivan, LeeF, SteveH, manu1, manu, gkellogg, yvesr, davidwood, trackbot, ericP, sandro

14:59:22 <pfps> I am IRC only today

Peter Patel-Schneider: I am IRC only today

14:59:25 <ivan> zakim, code?

Ivan Herman: zakim, code?

14:59:25 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan

14:59:39 <Zakim> +Tony

Zakim IRC Bot: +Tony

14:59:53 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

14:59:57 <ScottB> Zakim, Tony is temporarily me

Scott Bauer: Zakim, Tony is temporarily me

14:59:57 <Zakim> +ScottB; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +ScottB; got it

15:00:05 <AndyS> zakim, IPcaller is me

Andy Seaborne: zakim, IPcaller is me

15:00:05 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it

15:00:07 <Zakim> +Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro

15:00:47 <Zakim> +ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: +ivan

15:01:02 <Zakim> +??P10

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P10

15:01:06 <gkellogg> zakim, I am ??P10

Gregg Kellogg: zakim, I am ??P10

15:01:06 <Zakim> +gkellogg; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +gkellogg; got it

15:01:28 <Zakim> +??P11

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P11

15:01:43 <Zakim> + +1.408.996.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.408.996.aaaa

15:01:56 <Zakim> +mhausenblas

Zakim IRC Bot: +mhausenblas

15:01:58 <cygri> zakim, mhausenblas is temporarily me

Richard Cyganiak: zakim, mhausenblas is temporarily me

15:01:58 <Zakim> +cygri; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +cygri; got it

15:02:02 <Zakim> +??P16

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P16

15:02:06 <SteveH> Zakim, ??P16 is me

Steve Harris: Zakim, ??P16 is me

15:02:06 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +SteveH; got it

15:02:09 <Zakim> + +1.707.318.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.707.318.aabb

15:02:12 <Zakim> +gavinc

Zakim IRC Bot: +gavinc

15:02:58 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?

David Wood: Zakim, who is here?

15:02:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see davidwood, ScottB, AndyS, Sandro, ivan, gkellogg, pchampin, +1.408.996.aaaa, cygri, SteveH, +1.707.318.aabb, gavinc

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see davidwood, ScottB, AndyS, Sandro, ivan, gkellogg, pchampin, +1.408.996.aaaa, cygri, SteveH, +1.707.318.aabb, gavinc

15:03:00 <Zakim> On IRC I see Arnaud, gavinc, cgreer, pchampin, cygri, pfps, ScottB, Zakim, RRSAgent, AndyS, mischat, MacTed, ivan, LeeF, SteveH, manu1, manu, gkellogg, yvesr, davidwood, trackbot,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Arnaud, gavinc, cgreer, pchampin, cygri, pfps, ScottB, Zakim, RRSAgent, AndyS, mischat, MacTed, ivan, LeeF, SteveH, manu1, manu, gkellogg, yvesr, davidwood, trackbot,

15:03:00 <Zakim> ... ericP, sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: ... ericP, sandro

15:03:52 <gavinc> zakim, aabb is cgreer

Gavin Carothers: zakim, aabb is cgreer

15:03:52 <Zakim> +cgreer; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +cgreer; got it

15:03:57 <cgreer> zakim, aabb is me

Charles Greer: zakim, aabb is me

15:03:57 <Zakim> sorry, cgreer, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, cgreer, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'

15:04:14 <Zakim> +Guus_Schreiber

Zakim IRC Bot: +Guus_Schreiber

15:04:37 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software

Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software

15:04:42 <Zakim> +??P22

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P22

15:04:43 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

15:04:44 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it

15:04:45 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

15:04:45 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

15:05:11 <AZ> Zakim, ??P22 is me

Antoine Zimmermann: Zakim, ??P22 is me

15:05:11 <Zakim> +AZ; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ; got it

15:05:11 <pchampin> scribe: pchampin

(Scribe set to Pierre-Antoine Champin)

15:05:25 <davidwood> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 26 September:

David Wood: PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 26 September:

15:05:25 <davidwood>    http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-09-26

David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-09-26

15:05:45 <davidwood> RESOLVED to accept the minutes of the 26 September:

David Wood: RESOLVED to accept the minutes of the 26 September:

15:05:45 <davidwood>    http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-09-26

David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-09-26

15:05:58 <davidwood> Topic: Review of action items

1. Review of action items

15:07:12 <pchampin> cygri: I mostly offline next week

Richard Cyganiak: I mostly offline next week

15:07:22 <pchampin> ... I can post my comments to the list next sunday

... I can post my comments to the list this sunday

15:07:25 <davidwood> s/next/this/
15:07:30 <ivan> s/next/this/
15:08:30 <pchampin> david: can we have another reviewer for Provenance Constraints document?

David Wood: can we have another reviewer for Provenance Constraints document?

15:08:59 <pchampin> ivan: this document is the furthest away from the WG

Ivan Herman: this document is the furthest away from the WG

15:09:33 <Zakim> +[GVoice]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[GVoice]

15:10:05 <ericP> apologies, all -- burried in prov constraints

Eric Prud'hommeaux: apologies, all -- burried in prov constraints

15:10:37 <pchampin> david: some discussions that happened on the mailing list, related to datasets, seemed also related to the Constraints document

David Wood: some discussions that happened on the mailing list, related to datasets, seemed also related to the Constraints document

15:10:47 <pchampin> ... so we might want someone to review it

... so we might want someone to review it

15:11:06 <Zakim> +??P27

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P27

15:11:16 <pchampin> ivan: the problem is that the document is hard to read, very mathematical

Ivan Herman: the problem is that the document is hard to read, very mathematical

15:11:36 <pchampin> ... and hard to understand in isolation

... and hard to understand in isolation

15:11:55 <pchampin> ... the Provenance data-model is a pre-requisite

... the Provenance data-model is a pre-requisite

15:11:57 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

15:12:02 <ericP> q+ to ask what we hope to get out of a review

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to ask what we hope to get out of a review

15:12:20 <pchampin> AZ: I can give it a try, but the deadlines for the reviews will be hard to meet

Antoine Zimmermann: I can give it a try, but the deadlines for the reviews will be hard to meet

15:12:26 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P27 is me

Yves Raimond: Zakim, ??P27 is me

15:12:26 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +yvesr; got it

15:14:06 <pchampin> ivan: it would be more efficient for us if we came back to the Prov-WG

Ivan Herman: it would be more efficient for us if we came back to the Prov-WG

15:14:18 <pchampin> ... and ask them to ask us the questions they have for our WG

... and ask them to ask us the questions they have for our WG

15:15:05 <AZ> you can still put an action on me, even if there is a chance that it'll be overdue

Antoine Zimmermann: you can still put an action on me, even if there is a chance that it'll be overdue

15:15:29 <ericP> q?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q?

15:15:32 <ericP> ack mq

Eric Prud'hommeaux: ack mq

15:15:32 <pchampin> david: I'll try to get that done

David Wood: I'll try to get that done

15:15:34 <ericP> ack me

Eric Prud'hommeaux: ack me

15:15:34 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to ask what we hope to get out of a review

Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to ask what we hope to get out of a review

15:15:37 <ivan> ack me

Ivan Herman: ack me

15:15:46 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2012/10/prov-dm

Eric Prud'hommeaux: http://www.w3.org/2012/10/prov-dm

15:15:52 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2012/10/prov-constraints

Eric Prud'hommeaux: http://www.w3.org/2012/10/prov-constraints

15:15:57 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2012/10/prov-constraints#worksOnGraphStore

Eric Prud'hommeaux: http://www.w3.org/2012/10/prov-constraints#worksOnGraphStore

15:16:31 <pchampin> eric: I spent some time reading both documents

Eric Prud'hommeaux: I spent some time reading both documents

15:16:35 <pchampin> ... above are my notes about them

... above are my notes about them

15:17:00 <pchampin> ... could help Antoine in his review

... could help Antoine in his review

15:17:53 <AndyS> Could be important to LDP

Andy Seaborne: Could be important to LDP

15:18:08 <Zakim> +PatH

Zakim IRC Bot: +PatH

15:19:28 <pchampin> david: after a quick look at the document, it seems to me that many stores already do that

David Wood: after a quick look at the document, it seems to me that many stores already do that

15:19:39 <pchampin> ... storing bookkeeping data in a dedicated graph

... storing bookkeeping data in a dedicated graph

15:21:28 <cygri> erciP, how do you create those annotations? edit HTML in the source?

Richard Cyganiak: erciP, how do you create those annotations? edit HTML in the source?

15:21:59 <ericP> cygri, yup, look for .mark (i suffered a lack of imagination at the time)

Eric Prud'hommeaux: cygri, yup, look for .mark (i suffered a lack of imagination at the time)

15:22:00 <pchampin> topic: FTF3

2. FTF3

15:22:13 <pchampin> david: I cleaned up the participants list on the wiki

David Wood: I cleaned up the participants list on the wiki

15:22:39 <ericP> cygri, ".mark" in the style block and e.g. <span class="mark">...</span> elsewhere

Eric Prud'hommeaux: cygri, ".mark" in the style block and e.g. <span class="mark">...</span> elsewhere

15:23:06 <pchampin> ... If anybody has specific agenda request, please post them to the mailing list

... If anybody has specific agenda request, please post them to the mailing list

15:23:27 <cygri> ericP, i'll have to do my annotations on paper this time because i won't have a computer around for it, so i'll pass this time. i can see though how this can be very useful for reviewing big documents

Richard Cyganiak: ericP, i'll have to do my annotations on paper this time because i won't have a computer around for it, so i'll pass this time. i can see though how this can be very useful for reviewing big documents

15:23:43 <pchampin> topic: graphs

3. graphs

15:24:18 <pchampin> david: we had several proposals for the Trig syntax

David Wood: we had several proposals for the Trig syntax

15:25:23 <davidwood> PROPOSED: This Working Group will not provide a Formal Semantics for RDF Datasets or for our Dataset Syntax (eg trig). In the future, the WG will decide whether to include something simple (relevant to datasets) in the RDF 1.1 Semantics, such as [ <N, G> name-entails <N', G'> just when N=N' and G entails G'. ] and the WG may publish some information about dataset semantics in WG NOTES.

PROPOSED: This Working Group will not provide a Formal Semantics for RDF Datasets or for our Dataset Syntax (eg trig). In the future, the WG will decide whether to include something simple (relevant to datasets) in the RDF 1.1 Semantics, such as [ <N, G> name-entails <N', G'> just when N=N' and G entails G'. ] and the WG may publish some information about dataset semantics in WG NOTES.

15:25:27 <pchampin> ... but we should first try to settle on the dataset semantic proposal

... but we should first try to settle on the dataset semantic proposal

15:25:48 <AZ> q+

Antoine Zimmermann: q+

15:25:58 <davidwood> ack AZ

David Wood: ack AZ

15:26:50 <pchampin> AZ: I think there was another proposal last time, from Pat and Peter, defining an entailment for datasets

Antoine Zimmermann: I think there was another proposal last time, from Pat and Peter, defining an entailment for datasets

15:27:27 <pchampin> david: I think there was still contention about the meaning of the default graph

David Wood: I think there was still contention about the meaning of the default graph

15:27:33 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

15:27:50 <PatH> q+

Patrick Hayes: q+

15:28:18 <pchampin> AZ: it is not about the *meaning* of the default graph, only a constraint on entailment

Antoine Zimmermann: it is not about the *meaning* of the default graph, only a constraint on entailment

15:28:33 <pchampin> david: and what do you think are the ramifications?

David Wood: and what do you think are the ramifications?

15:28:49 <pchampin> AZ: it constrains a little bit more how you can possibly interpret a dataset as a whole

Antoine Zimmermann: it constrains a little bit more how you can possibly interpret a dataset as a whole

15:29:04 <davidwood> STRAWPOLL: Have no Dataset Semantics (in the lifetime of this WG) http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-09-26#line0228

STRAWPOLL: Have no Dataset Semantics (in the lifetime of this WG) http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-09-26#line0228

15:29:17 <pfps> +1

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1

15:29:21 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

15:29:26 <davidwood> ack cygri

David Wood: ack cygri

15:29:33 <pchampin> david: the answer last week to the strawpoll above was mostly "no we shoulnd't"

David Wood: the answer last week to the strawpoll above was mostly "no we shoulnd't"

15:29:46 <sandro> ( davidwood was just repeating STRAWPOLL from last week )

Sandro Hawke: ( davidwood was just repeating STRAWPOLL from last week )

15:30:01 <davidwood> yes

David Wood: yes

15:30:04 <pchampin> cygri: an argument against Antoine's proposal (and Pat's):

Richard Cyganiak: an argument against Antoine's proposal (and Pat's):

15:30:36 <PatH> call Antoines proposal "componentwise" entasilment to save time.

Patrick Hayes: call Antoines proposal "componentwise" entasilment to save time.

15:30:40 <pchampin> ... it is potentially dangerous to put a sketch of semantics that does not solve any problem on its own

... it is potentially dangerous to put a sketch of semantics that does not solve any problem on its own

15:31:04 <sandro> cygri: A reason against both these proposals is: it's potentially dangerous to put a sketch of a semantics in there, where we know it's not really a solution to anything, just a minimal part of the picture, that no one felt like formally objecting against.  If we don't have consensus on a USEFUL and in some sense COMOPLETE, then better to leave semantics unconstrained, leave it to future work.

Richard Cyganiak: A reason against both these proposals is: it's potentially dangerous to put a sketch of a semantics in there, where we know it's not really a solution to anything, just a minimal part of the picture, that no one felt like formally objecting against. If we don't have consensus on a USEFUL and in some sense COMOPLETE, then better to leave semantics unconstrained, leave it to future work. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:31:07 <sandro> +1 cygri

Sandro Hawke: +1 cygri

15:31:12 <pchampin> ... so if we can not agree on a "full package", then let's not constrain at all

... so if we can not agree on a "full package", then let's not constrain at all

15:31:37 <sandro> cygri: These proposals would be constraining future WGs.

Richard Cyganiak: These proposals would be constraining future WGs. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:31:45 <pchampin> ... or any future work (future RDF WG) would have to deal with those constraints

... or any future work (future RDF WG) would have to deal with those constraints

15:32:03 <sandro> cygri: It's kind of setting up a minefield for future research.

Richard Cyganiak: It's kind of setting up a minefield for future research. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:33:01 <davidwood> ack PatH

David Wood: ack PatH

15:33:17 <pchampin> david: the proposal is to not define a semantics, and may be give reference to *examples* of how it could be done

David Wood: the proposal is to not define a semantics, and may be give reference to *examples* of how it could be done

15:33:30 <sandro> pat: My proposal is not a constraint because it's just defining a term.

Patrick Hayes: My proposal is not a constraint because it's just defining a term. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:33:45 <pchampin> pat: my proposal does not constrain any future work

Patrick Hayes: my proposal does not constrain any future work

15:34:02 <pchampin> ... it merely proposes a terminology to talk about this kind of problem

... it merely proposes a terminology to talk about this kind of problem

15:34:25 <AZ> q+

Antoine Zimmermann: q+

15:34:53 <pchampin> ... the problem with Antoine's proposal is that an inconsistent default graph makes the entire dataset inconcistent

... the problem with Antoine's proposal is that an inconsistent default graph makes the entire dataset inconcistent

15:35:00 <sandro> pat: The problem with the somewhat larger proposal is that an inconsistent default graph leads to entailing everything.

Patrick Hayes: The problem with the somewhat larger proposal is that an inconsistent default graph leads to entailing everything. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:35:09 <pchampin> ... hence the dataset would entail anything, regardless of what is in the named graphs

... hence the dataset would entail anything, regardless of what is in the named graphs

15:35:15 <davidwood> ack AZ

David Wood: ack AZ

15:35:42 <pchampin> AZ: my proposal does not implies that

Antoine Zimmermann: my proposal does not implies that

15:35:52 <pchampin> ... we don't define a notion of semantics

... we don't define a notion of semantics

15:36:23 <pchampin> ... it just says that an inconsistent default graph will entail any default graph, not dataset

... it just says that an inconsistent default graph will entail any default graph, not dataset

15:36:54 <pchampin> pat: entailment is assumed to be truth-preserving

Patrick Hayes: entailment is assumed to be truth-preserving

15:37:15 <pchampin> ... so from that definition of truth, one would derive a definition of truth

... so from that definition of truth, one would derive a definition of truth

15:37:24 <yvesr> what's the argument against a semantic without default graphs? (as was proposed above)

Yves Raimond: what's the argument against a semantic without default graphs? (as was proposed above)

15:37:44 <pchampin> ... what you need is only to talk about entailment between graphs

... what you need is only to talk about entailment between graphs

15:38:25 <davidwood> PROPOSED: This Working Group will not provide a Formal Semantics for RDF Datasets or for our Dataset Syntax (eg trig). In the future, the WG will decide whether to include something simple (relevant to datasets) in the RDF 1.1 Semantics, such as [ <N, G> name-entails <N', G'> just when N=N' and G entails G'. ] and the WG may publish some information about dataset semantics in WG NOTES.

PROPOSED: This Working Group will not provide a Formal Semantics for RDF Datasets or for our Dataset Syntax (eg trig). In the future, the WG will decide whether to include something simple (relevant to datasets) in the RDF 1.1 Semantics, such as [ <N, G> name-entails <N', G'> just when N=N' and G entails G'. ] and the WG may publish some information about dataset semantics in WG NOTES.

15:38:43 <pchampin> ... The "modest proposal" just extends RDF-entailment with "named entailment"

... The "modest proposal" just extends RDF-entailment with "named entailment"

15:39:00 <davidwood> PROPOSED: This Working Group will not provide a Formal Semantics for RDF Datasets or for our Dataset Syntax (eg trig). In the future, the WG will decide whether to include something simple (relevant to datasets) in the RDF 1.1 Semantics and the WG may publish some information about dataset semantics in WG NOTES.

PROPOSED: This Working Group will not provide a Formal Semantics for RDF Datasets or for our Dataset Syntax (eg trig). In the future, the WG will decide whether to include something simple (relevant to datasets) in the RDF 1.1 Semantics and the WG may publish some information about dataset semantics in WG NOTES.

15:39:28 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

15:39:34 <davidwood> ack cygri

David Wood: ack cygri

15:39:38 <MacTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

15:39:53 <pchampin> david: would the group be more comfortable with the 2nd proposal above?

David Wood: would the group be more comfortable with the 2nd proposal above?

15:41:02 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

15:41:04 <pchampin> cygri: this is a slippery slope, as Pat's proposal makes it very easy to derive a dataset entailment from Pat's named-entailement

Richard Cyganiak: this is a slippery slope, as Pat's proposal makes it very easy to derive a dataset entailment from Pat's named-entailement

15:41:18 <pchampin> ... and we would end up where we didn't want to be in the first place

... and we would end up where we didn't want to be in the first place

15:41:37 <sandro> PROPOSED: This Working Group will not include in a Rec-Track document any semantics for RDF Datasets or for our Dataset Syntax (eg trig).

PROPOSED: This Working Group will not include in a Rec-Track document any semantics for RDF Datasets or for our Dataset Syntax (eg trig).

15:41:54 <pchampin> pat: the difference is between defining something and saying that people must use it

Patrick Hayes: the difference is between defining something and saying that people must use it

15:42:00 <ivan> q-

Ivan Herman: q-

15:42:06 <gavinc> people happen to ignore the semantics already when they need to, and fall back to it when they want to. No one seems to care today

Gavin Carothers: people happen to ignore the semantics already when they need to, and fall back to it when they want to. No one seems to care today

15:42:18 <AZ> possible proposal: this Working Group will not provide a Formal Semantics for RDF Datasets or for our Dataset Syntax (eg trig). In the future (that is, in a different WG), a formal semantics may be defined, or simply constraints on what entailment might be.

Antoine Zimmermann: possible proposal: this Working Group will not provide a Formal Semantics for RDF Datasets or for our Dataset Syntax (eg trig). In the future (that is, in a different WG), a formal semantics may be defined, or simply constraints on what entailment might be.

15:42:37 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1

15:42:46 <pfps> +1

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1

15:42:48 <AZ> I understand

Antoine Zimmermann: I understand

15:43:17 <davidwood> PROPOSED: This Working Group will not provide a Formal Semantics for RDF Datasets or for our Dataset Syntax (eg trig). In the future, the WG will decide whether to include something simple (relevant to datasets) in the RDF 1.1 Semantics and the WG may publish some information about dataset semantics in WG NOTES.

PROPOSED: This Working Group will not provide a Formal Semantics for RDF Datasets or for our Dataset Syntax (eg trig). In the future, the WG will decide whether to include something simple (relevant to datasets) in the RDF 1.1 Semantics and the WG may publish some information about dataset semantics in WG NOTES.

15:43:26 <PatH> +1

Patrick Hayes: +1

15:43:41 <PatH> whoops, ignore that

Patrick Hayes: whoops, ignore that

15:43:44 <davidwood> PROPOSED: This Working Group will not provide a Formal Semantics for RDF Datasets or for our Dataset Syntax (eg trig). The WG may publish some information about dataset semantics in WG NOTES.

PROPOSED: This Working Group will not provide a Formal Semantics for RDF Datasets or for our Dataset Syntax (eg trig). The WG may publish some information about dataset semantics in WG NOTES.

15:43:49 <AZ> +1

Antoine Zimmermann: +1

15:43:50 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1

15:43:52 <pfps> +1

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1

15:43:55 <ivan> +1

Ivan Herman: +1

15:43:55 <MacTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

15:43:56 <Arnaud> +1

Arnaud Le Hors: +1

15:43:56 <cygri> +1

Richard Cyganiak: +1

15:43:58 <gkellogg> +1

Gregg Kellogg: +1

15:43:58 <SteveH> +1

Steve Harris: +1

15:43:58 <pchampin> +1

+1

15:44:06 <davidwood> +1

David Wood: +1

15:44:06 <cgreer> +1

Charles Greer: +1

15:44:24 <yvesr> +1

Yves Raimond: +1

15:44:24 <cygri> (i'd like to see the note published too)

Richard Cyganiak: (i'd like to see the note published too)

15:44:24 <MacTed> +1 Ivan

Ted Thibodeau: +1 Ivan

15:44:29 <gavinc> +1

Gavin Carothers: +1

15:44:44 <davidwood> RESOLVED: This Working Group will not provide a Formal Semantics for RDF Datasets or for our Dataset Syntax (eg trig). The WG may publish some information about dataset semantics in WG NOTES.

RESOLVED: This Working Group will not provide a Formal Semantics for RDF Datasets or for our Dataset Syntax (eg trig). The WG may publish some information about dataset semantics in WG NOTES.

15:44:49 <ericP> party time!

Eric Prud'hommeaux: party time!

15:44:54 <AZ> We have enough material to write a book about dataset semantics!

Antoine Zimmermann: We have enough material to write a book about dataset semantics!

15:44:55 <sandro> victory!

Sandro Hawke: victory!

15:44:57 <SteveH> tea and cake?

Steve Harris: tea and cake?

15:45:18 <yvesr> although i still think we need to really evaluate whether we want default graphs in trig

Yves Raimond: although i still think we need to really evaluate whether we want default graphs in trig

15:45:20 <pchampin> ivan: ok with the proposal, but I really would like the note to be published

Ivan Herman: ok with the proposal, but I really would like the note to be published

15:45:31 <pchampin> ... we should really discuss it at the F2F

... we should really discuss it at the F2F

15:46:00 <pchampin> ... a note may list various conflicting approaches

... a note may list various conflicting approaches

15:46:24 <davidwood> MacTed suggested adding a ftf agendum regarding a dataset semantics Note.

David Wood: MacTed suggested adding a ftf agendum regarding a dataset semantics Note.

15:46:34 <AZ> I'd be glad to contribute to such a note

Antoine Zimmermann: I'd be glad to contribute to such a note

15:46:44 <pchampin> sandro: we need to be careful that, even if the note is not normative, some people might use it as if it was

Sandro Hawke: we need to be careful that, even if the note is not normative, some people might use it as if it was

15:47:00 <sandro> +1 a descriptive NOTE (not a sort of "we think you should do this" kind of note.)

Sandro Hawke: +1 a descriptive NOTE (not a sort of "we think you should do this" kind of note.)

15:47:02 <davidwood> PROPOSED: Implementations that parse and store information from TriG documents MAY turn the TriG default graph into a named graph with a name chosen in an implementation-dependent way.

PROPOSED: Implementations that parse and store information from TriG documents MAY turn the TriG default graph into a named graph with a name chosen in an implementation-dependent way.

15:47:03 <pchampin> topic: trig syntax

4. trig syntax

15:47:13 <cygri> sandro, +1 to that

Richard Cyganiak: sandro, +1 to that

15:47:30 <davidwood> PROPOSED: We will produce a W3C Recommendation for a dataset syntax, similar to TriG and to SPARQL's named graph syntax.

PROPOSED: We will produce a W3C Recommendation for a dataset syntax, similar to TriG and to SPARQL's named graph syntax.

15:48:23 <sandro> PROPOSED: We will produce a W3C Recommendation for a dataset syntax, similar to TriG and to SPARQL's named graph syntax.   This does not preclude another syntax, eg n-quads

PROPOSED: We will produce a W3C Recommendation for a dataset syntax, similar to TriG and to SPARQL's named graph syntax. This does not preclude another syntax, eg n-quads

15:48:25 <davidwood> PROPOSED: We will produce a W3C Recommendation for a dataset syntax, similar to TriG and to SPARQL's named graph syntax.  This does not preclude recommending a syntax like n-quads.

PROPOSED: We will produce a W3C Recommendation for a dataset syntax, similar to TriG and to SPARQL's named graph syntax. This does not preclude recommending a syntax like n-quads.

15:48:28 <gavinc> +1 http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/trig/index.html

Gavin Carothers: +1 http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/trig/index.html

15:48:32 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1

15:48:34 <ivan> +1

Ivan Herman: +1

15:48:34 <gkellogg> +1

Gregg Kellogg: +1

15:48:35 <AndyS> The default graph in/out {} plays in here.

Andy Seaborne: The default graph in/out {} plays in here.

15:48:37 <AndyS> +1

Andy Seaborne: +1

15:48:37 <pfps> +1

Peter Patel-Schneider: +1

15:48:38 <AZ> 1

Antoine Zimmermann: 1

15:48:40 <MacTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

15:48:40 <cygri> +0.2

Richard Cyganiak: +0.2

15:48:41 <cgreer> +1

Charles Greer: +1

15:48:42 <yvesr> +1

Yves Raimond: +1

15:48:43 <pchampin> +1

+1

15:48:44 <davidwood> +1

David Wood: +1

15:48:50 <SteveH> +1

Steve Harris: +1

15:48:55 <PatH> model for that note might be http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-n-aryRelations/

Patrick Hayes: model for that note might be http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-n-aryRelations/

15:49:07 <PatH> +1

Patrick Hayes: +1

15:49:08 <davidwood> RESOLVED: We will produce a W3C Recommendation for a dataset syntax, similar to TriG and to SPARQL's named graph syntax.  This does not preclude recommending a syntax like n-quads.

RESOLVED: We will produce a W3C Recommendation for a dataset syntax, similar to TriG and to SPARQL's named graph syntax.  This does not preclude recommending a syntax like n-quads.

15:49:25 <ivan> +1 to Pat

Ivan Herman: +1 to Pat

15:49:25 <davidwood> PROPOSED: We'll request a media-type for this syntax which is different from the media-type for Turtle.  (That is, we will not consider this language to supplant Turtle and take over the name, becoming the new "Turtle", as was once proposed.)

PROPOSED: We'll request a media-type for this syntax which is different from the media-type for Turtle.  (That is, we will not consider this language to supplant Turtle and take over the name, becoming the new "Turtle", as was once proposed.)

15:49:35 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1

15:49:37 <yvesr> +1

Yves Raimond: +1

15:49:41 <ivan> +1

Ivan Herman: +1

15:49:42 <cgreer> +1

Charles Greer: +1

15:49:42 <cygri> +1

Richard Cyganiak: +1

15:49:43 <pchampin> +1

+1

15:49:44 <davidwood> +1

David Wood: +1

15:49:45 <MacTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

15:49:47 <gavinc> +1

Gavin Carothers: +1

15:49:47 <AndyS> +1

Andy Seaborne: +1

15:49:48 <AZ> +1

Antoine Zimmermann: +1

15:49:51 <gkellogg> +1

Gregg Kellogg: +1

15:49:58 <Arnaud> 0

Arnaud Le Hors: 0

15:50:02 <davidwood> RESOLVED: We'll request a media-type for this syntax which is different from the media-type for Turtle.  (That is, we will not consider this language to supplant Turtle and take over the name, becoming the new "Turtle", as was once proposed.)

RESOLVED: We'll request a media-type for this syntax which is different from the media-type for Turtle.  (That is, we will not consider this language to supplant Turtle and take over the name, becoming the new "Turtle", as was once proposed.)

15:50:02 <PatH> +0

Patrick Hayes: +0

15:50:14 <davidwood> PROPOSED: Our dataset syntax will allow for the expression of empty named graphs, whatever their semantics might be (to be decided). The syntax is an empty curly-braces expression, as in "<g> { }".

PROPOSED: Our dataset syntax will allow for the expression of empty named graphs, whatever their semantics might be (to be decided). The syntax is an empty curly-braces expression, as in "<g> { }".

15:50:23 <PatH> +1

Patrick Hayes: +1

15:50:25 <gavinc> -0.999...

Gavin Carothers: -0.999...

15:50:38 <davidwood> PROPOSED: Our dataset syntax will allow for the expression of empty named graphs, whatever their semantics might be. The syntax is an empty curly-braces expression, as in "<g> { }".

PROPOSED: Our dataset syntax will allow for the expression of empty named graphs, whatever their semantics might be. The syntax is an empty curly-braces expression, as in "<g> { }".

15:50:43 <yvesr> -0.5

Yves Raimond: -0.5

15:51:03 <cygri> +1

Richard Cyganiak: +1

15:51:22 <pchampin> q+

q+

15:51:30 <sandro> agreed gavinc

Sandro Hawke: agreed gavinc

15:51:35 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

15:51:55 <PatH> union

Patrick Hayes: union

15:51:56 <pchampin> q-

q-

15:51:56 <AndyS> gavinc's example -- <g> {} \n <g> {:s :p :o}

Andy Seaborne: gavinc's example -- <g> {} \n <g> {:s :p :o}

15:52:09 <PatH> Q

Patrick Hayes: Q

15:52:18 <PatH> q+

Patrick Hayes: q+

15:52:30 <davidwood> ack pchampin

David Wood: ack pchampin

15:52:37 <davidwood> ack cygri

David Wood: ack cygri

15:52:44 <pchampin> gavin: the mention about the syntax may be confusing

Gavin Carothers: the mention about the syntax may be confusing

15:53:04 <pchampin> ... as further expressions may make the graph non-empty after all

... as further expressions may make the graph non-empty after all

15:53:15 <pchampin> ... (see example above quoted by AndyS)

... (see example above quoted by AndyS)

15:53:22 <Zakim> -cgreer

Zakim IRC Bot: -cgreer

15:53:46 <sandro> cygri: The abstract syntax of datasets makes a distinction between an empty named graph and the named graph not existing in the dataset.    Given that, and no semantics, we need that distinction in the syntax.

Richard Cyganiak: The abstract syntax of datasets makes a distinction between an empty named graph and the named graph not existing in the dataset. Given that, and no semantics, we need that distinction in the syntax. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

15:53:47 <Zakim> +cgreer

Zakim IRC Bot: +cgreer

15:54:04 <sandro> +1 cygri

Sandro Hawke: +1 cygri

15:54:50 <pfps> +0.5 cygri

Peter Patel-Schneider: +0.5 cygri

15:54:54 <davidwood> ack PatH

David Wood: ack PatH

15:55:18 <AZ> the semantics is not defined at all

Antoine Zimmermann: the semantics is not defined at all

15:55:27 <pchampin> pat: the semantics of empty graphs is well defined; they are trivially true

Patrick Hayes: the semantics of empty graphs is well defined; they are trivially true

15:55:40 <AZ> (of empty *named* graph i mean)

Antoine Zimmermann: (of empty *named* graph i mean)

15:56:00 <pchampin> q+

q+

15:56:21 <pchampin> ... there is another issue; what happens when someone empties a graph by deleting everything  inside it?

... there is another issue; what happens when someone empties a graph by deleting everything inside it?

15:56:33 <gavinc> +q to say that I'm not saying that there are no empty graphs, just that empty graphs in a UNION syntax get funky

Gavin Carothers: +q to say that I'm not saying that there are no empty graphs, just that empty graphs in a UNION syntax get funky

15:56:35 <pchampin> ... (something about the impossible dataset, I didn't quite get it)

... (something about the impossible dataset, I didn't quite get it)

15:56:39 <davidwood> ack pchampin

David Wood: ack pchampin

15:56:57 <PatH> sound very broken

Patrick Hayes: sound very broken

15:57:00 <Zakim> +LeeF

Zakim IRC Bot: +LeeF

15:57:07 <sandro> q+ to reply to Gavin saying sure, but we can handle it.

Sandro Hawke: q+ to reply to Gavin saying sure, but we can handle it.

15:57:12 <ericP> SPARQL Update has DROP

Eric Prud'hommeaux: SPARQL Update has DROP

15:57:16 <PatH> we cant hear...

Patrick Hayes: we cant hear...

15:57:25 <ericP> ack

Eric Prud'hommeaux: ack

15:57:27 <ericP> ack me

Eric Prud'hommeaux: ack me

15:57:35 <AndyS> SPARQL has CLEAR

Andy Seaborne: SPARQL has CLEAR

15:57:38 <MacTed> CLEAR empties the named graph; DROP drops the name

Ted Thibodeau: CLEAR empties the named graph; DROP drops the name

15:57:50 <pchampin> pchampin: is there a mechanism in SPARQL-update to remove a graph by name

Pierre-Antoine Champin: is there a mechanism in SPARQL-update to remove a graph by name

15:57:56 <pchampin> ... rather than removing all the triples in a named graph

... rather than removing all the triples in a named graph

15:58:05 <pchampin> ... which is different if empty graphs are allowed?

... which is different if empty graphs are allowed?

15:58:06 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

15:58:12 <pchampin> ack me

ack me

15:58:17 <MacTed> analogous to SQL    DELETE * FROM table     and    DROP table

Ted Thibodeau: analogous to SQL DELETE * FROM table and DROP table

15:58:18 <davidwood> ack gavinc

David Wood: ack gavinc

15:58:18 <Zakim> gavinc, you wanted to say that I'm not saying that there are no empty graphs, just that empty graphs in a UNION syntax get funky

Zakim IRC Bot: gavinc, you wanted to say that I'm not saying that there are no empty graphs, just that empty graphs in a UNION syntax get funky

15:58:22 <LeeF> SPARQL Update attempts to support quadstores by allowing stores to silently "remove" a graph that has no triples

Lee Feigenbaum: SPARQL Update attempts to support quadstores by allowing stores to silently "remove" a graph that has no triples

15:58:47 <LeeF> That is, SPARQL Update tries to let empty graphs be basically the same as non-existent graphs

Lee Feigenbaum: That is, SPARQL Update tries to let empty graphs be basically the same as non-existent graphs

15:59:06 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

15:59:09 <ericP> no one else can state it later *in the same document*

Eric Prud'hommeaux: no one else can state it later *in the same document*

15:59:27 <cygri> q-

Richard Cyganiak: q-

15:59:30 <pchampin> gavin: with the union semantics, it is strange to express empty graphs in Trig

Gavin Carothers: with the union semantics, it is strange to express empty graphs in Trig

15:59:31 <davidwood> ack sandro

David Wood: ack sandro

15:59:31 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to reply to Gavin saying sure, but we can handle it.

Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, you wanted to reply to Gavin saying sure, but we can handle it.

15:59:42 <pchampin> ivan, pat, sandro: why???

ivan, pat, sandro: why???

15:59:43 <sandro> PROPOSED: Our dataset syntax will allow for the expression of empty named graphs, whatever their semantics might be.

PROPOSED: Our dataset syntax will allow for the expression of empty named graphs, whatever their semantics might be.

15:59:52 <cygri> +1

Richard Cyganiak: +1

15:59:58 <ivan> +1

Ivan Herman: +1

15:59:59 <PatH> +1

Patrick Hayes: +1

16:00:02 <gavinc> +0

Gavin Carothers: +0

16:00:02 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1

16:00:03 <AZ> +1

Antoine Zimmermann: +1

16:00:03 <AndyS> +1

Andy Seaborne: +1

16:00:06 <pchampin> +0

+0

16:00:09 <MacTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

16:00:10 <ericP> +1

Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1

16:00:12 <SteveH> o AndyS �'s point, that sounds sigular

Steve Harris: o AndyS �'s point, that sounds sigular

16:00:15 <yvesr> +0

Yves Raimond: +0

16:00:19 <SteveH> and n-quads can't represent that easily

Steve Harris: and n-quads can't represent that easily

16:00:30 <yvesr> SteveH, that was my main concern

Yves Raimond: SteveH, that was my main concern

16:00:30 <davidwood> RESOLVED: Our dataset syntax will allow for the expression of empty named graphs, whatever their semantics might be.

RESOLVED: Our dataset syntax will allow for the expression of empty named graphs, whatever their semantics might be.

16:00:33 <SteveH> out TriG-like?

Steve Harris: out TriG-like?

16:00:38 <SteveH> *our

Steve Harris: *our

16:00:40 <yvesr> SteveH, introducing some assymetry between n-quads and trig

Yves Raimond: SteveH, introducing some assymetry between n-quads and trig

16:00:41 <ericP> [[ <n> { <s> <p> <o>, <o2> } ]] - [[ <n> { <s> <p> <o2> } ]] == [[ <n> { <s> <p> <o> } ]] ? seems probably pretty uncontroversial

Eric Prud'hommeaux: [[ <n> { <s> <p> <o>, <o2> } ]] - [[ <n> { <s> <p> <o2> } ]] == [[ <n> { <s> <p> <o> } ]] ? seems probably pretty uncontroversial

16:00:45 <ericP> [[ <n> { <s> <p> <o> } ]] - [[ <n> { <s> <p> <o> } ]] == [[ <n> {  } ]] ? or maybe [[  ]] ?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: [[ <n> { <s> <p> <o> } ]] - [[ <n> { <s> <p> <o> } ]] == [[ <n> { } ]] ? or maybe [[ ]] ?

16:01:08 <sandro> this was about the trig-like syntax, yes.

Sandro Hawke: this was about the trig-like syntax, yes.

16:01:54 <davidwood> PROPOSED: We will call our recommended dataset syntax "TriG", but informally and in the media type, "trig".

PROPOSED: We will call our recommended dataset syntax "TriG", but informally and in the media type, "trig".

16:02:06 <davidwood> PROPOSED: We will call a recommended dataset syntax "TriG", but informally and in the media type, "trig".

PROPOSED: We will call a recommended dataset syntax "TriG", but informally and in the media type, "trig".

16:02:20 <sandro> davidwood: Yes, the empty named graph resolution was about trig, not n-quads (if we do that).

David Wood: Yes, the empty named graph resolution was about trig, not n-quads (if we do that). [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:02:51 <ericP> wHAT'S wRONG wITH iT?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: wHAT'S wRONG wITH iT?

16:03:23 <gavinc> +0 no idea why it'

Gavin Carothers: +0 no idea why it'

16:03:29 <gavinc> s called TriG in the first

Gavin Carothers: s called TriG in the first

16:03:33 <ivan> -0.1

Ivan Herman: -0.1

16:03:45 <Arnaud> -0.5

Arnaud Le Hors: -0.5

16:03:57 <MacTed> +0

Ted Thibodeau: +0

16:04:01 <PatH> +1

Patrick Hayes: +1

16:04:02 <pfps> =0 I have no opinion

Peter Patel-Schneider: =0 I have no opinion

16:04:11 <gkellogg> +1

Gregg Kellogg: +1

16:04:14 <cygri> -0.1

Richard Cyganiak: -0.1

16:04:18 <AndyS> The point about Turtle-related name is a good one - informally TriG will be used regardless but Turtle-NG is interesting.

Andy Seaborne: The point about Turtle-related name is a good one - informally TriG will be used regardless but Turtle-NG is interesting.

16:04:19 <sandro> arnaud: I'm concerned by the proliferation of formats.

Arnaud Le Hors: I'm concerned by the proliferation of formats. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:04:32 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1

16:04:33 <LeeF> +1

Lee Feigenbaum: +1

16:04:34 <yvesr> +0 (depends how close that serialisation ends up being to existing TriG)

Yves Raimond: +0 (depends how close that serialisation ends up being to existing TriG)

16:04:37 <davidwood> +1

David Wood: +1

16:04:44 <AZ> +1.1

Antoine Zimmermann: +1.1

16:04:49 <AZ> oops +0.1

Antoine Zimmermann: oops +0.1

16:04:58 <SteveH> -0.1

Steve Harris: -0.1

16:05:00 <pchampin> arnaud: I understand why TriG should be distinct from Turtle,

Arnaud Le Hors: I understand why TriG should be distinct from Turtle,

16:05:14 <pchampin> ... but I'm affraid the proliferation of formats would hinder adoption

... but I'm affraid the proliferation of formats would hinder adoption

16:05:16 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

16:05:18 <sandro> sandro: TriG is like tar or zip; nothing like turtle....

Sandro Hawke: TriG is like tar or zip; nothing like turtle.... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:05:30 <davidwood> ack ivan

David Wood: ack ivan

16:05:38 <pchampin> ... I understand the technical arguments, but from a marketting point of view it sounds bad

... I understand the technical arguments, but from a marketting point of view it sounds bad

16:05:51 <SteveH> I don't think we have a resolution

Steve Harris: I don't think we have a resolution

16:05:59 <pchampin> ivan: I agree with Arnaud

Ivan Herman: I agree with Arnaud

16:07:05 <Guus> +1 to Arnaud's point; prefer not to resolve

Guus Schreiber: +1 to Arnaud's point; prefer not to resolve

16:07:09 <gavinc> Turtle Dataset Extension?

Gavin Carothers: Turtle Dataset Extension?

16:07:10 <sandro> votes other than -1 and +1 don't actually count, formally.

Sandro Hawke: votes other than -1 and +1 don't actually count, formally.

16:07:32 <SteveH> sandro, how do we abstain then? that's what I wanted to do

Steve Harris: sandro, how do we abstain then? that's what I wanted to do

16:07:39 <Guus> wrt media type, i mean

Guus Schreiber: wrt media type, i mean

16:07:50 <sandro> well, sure, you abstained -- that means not counting, right?

Sandro Hawke: well, sure, you abstained -- that means not counting, right?

16:07:59 <MacTed> . o O ( Turtle++?  Turtle#?  Turtle-bis? )

Ted Thibodeau: . o O ( Turtle++? Turtle#? Turtle-bis? )

16:08:17 <sandro> q?

Sandro Hawke: q?

16:08:26 <Guus> Turtle4G

Guus Schreiber: Turtle4G

16:08:27 <pchampin> ivan: we have two very similar language, and instead of stressing out the similarity, we introduce a completely different name

Ivan Herman: we have two very similar language, and instead of stressing out the similarity, we introduce a completely different name

16:08:31 <SteveH> sandro, I didn't believe so, but I'm confident y��ur knowledge of process is better than mi�ne

Steve Harris: sandro, I didn't believe so, but I'm confident y��ur knowledge of process is better than mi�ne

16:08:46 <MacTed> Turtle-for-Datasets (TFD)?

Ted Thibodeau: Turtle-for-Datasets (TFD)?

16:09:06 <sandro> q+

Sandro Hawke: q+

16:09:41 <SteveH> q+

Steve Harris: q+

16:09:57 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

16:10:05 <sandro> "Turtle Package Language"

Sandro Hawke: "Turtle Package Language"

16:10:08 <davidwood> ack sandro

David Wood: ack sandro

16:10:10 <sandro> TurtlePack

Sandro Hawke: TurtlePack

16:10:15 <LeeF> I support TriG being separate from Turtle, but it even sounds like a complicated story to me nonetheless :-)

Lee Feigenbaum: I support TriG being separate from Turtle, but it even sounds like a complicated story to me nonetheless :-)

16:10:26 <pchampin> david: I think that it is not that complicated, provided that we give the appropriate guidance to people in using those different languages

David Wood: I think that it is not that complicated, provided that we give the appropriate guidance to people in using those different languages

16:10:33 <gavinc> ....

Gavin Carothers: ....

16:10:34 <MacTed> TurtleShell!

Ted Thibodeau: TurtleShell!

16:10:51 <ericP> turtle's hell?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: turtle's hell?

16:10:54 <ericP> come use the RDF Semantic Web Linked Data RDFS OWL SPARQL RIF RDF/XML Turtle TRIG NQuads JSON-LD stack

Eric Prud'hommeaux: come use the RDF Semantic Web Linked Data RDFS OWL SPARQL RIF RDF/XML Turtle TRIG NQuads JSON-LD stack

16:10:55 <gavinc> Turtle{}

Gavin Carothers: Turtle{}

16:10:55 <davidwood> q?

David Wood: q?

16:11:00 <davidwood> ack SteveH

David Wood: ack SteveH

16:11:35 <pchampin> steveh: I abstain because I wait to see what it looks like to decide how it should be named

Steve Harris: I abstain because I wait to see what it looks like to decide how it should be named

16:11:38 <PatH> if it quacks like a turtle..? Hmmm.

Patrick Hayes: if it quacks like a turtle..? Hmmm.

16:11:53 <pchampin> ... if it looks like TriG, let's call it TriG

... if it looks like TriG, let's call it TriG

16:12:24 <ivan> q-

Ivan Herman: q-

16:12:25 <pchampin> sandro: true, we can defer that decision

Sandro Hawke: true, we can defer that decision

16:12:55 <davidwood> NOT RESOLVED: We will call a recommended dataset syntax "TriG", but informally and in the media type, "trig".

David Wood: NOT RESOLVED: We will call a recommended dataset syntax "TriG", but informally and in the media type, "trig".

16:13:02 <pchampin> ivan: I think the last proposal was not resolved

Ivan Herman: I think the last proposal was not resolved

16:13:09 <PatH> 3 minutes to go.

Patrick Hayes: 3 minutes to go.

16:13:14 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

16:13:14 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted

16:13:22 <LeeF> Is there another proposal that has more support?

Lee Feigenbaum: Is there another proposal that has more support?

16:13:30 <gavinc> Nameless Graph Syntax

Gavin Carothers: Nameless Graph Syntax

16:13:43 <cygri> AndyS, that's taken: http://code.google.com/p/oort/wiki/Grit

Richard Cyganiak: AndyS, that's taken: http://code.google.com/p/oort/wiki/Grit

16:13:47 <davidwood> PROPOSED: We will call a recommended dataset syntax "TriG", but informally and in the media type, "trig".

PROPOSED: We will call a recommended dataset syntax "TriG", but informally and in the media type, "trig".

16:13:49 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1

16:13:50 <MacTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

16:13:51 <gkellogg> +1

Gregg Kellogg: +1

16:13:51 <cgreer> +1

Charles Greer: +1

16:13:51 <ericP> +1

Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1

16:13:52 <LeeF> +1

Lee Feigenbaum: +1

16:13:52 <gavinc> 0

Gavin Carothers: 0

16:13:54 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

16:13:54 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

16:13:54 <SteveH> 0

Steve Harris: 0

16:13:56 <PatH> +1

Patrick Hayes: +1

16:13:59 <ivan> -0.9999...

Ivan Herman: -0.9

16:14:06 <davidwood> +1

David Wood: +1

16:14:07 <pchampin> +0

+0

16:14:12 <AZ> +0.1

Antoine Zimmermann: +0.1

16:14:12 <yvesr> +0 (for the same reason as above!)

Yves Raimond: +0 (for the same reason as above!)

16:14:13 <cygri> -0.2

Richard Cyganiak: -0.2

16:14:18 <Guus> -0.5

Guus Schreiber: -0.5

16:14:20 <Arnaud> -0.5

Arnaud Le Hors: -0.5

16:14:34 <ivan> this is not a formal objection, just making my opinion clear...

Ivan Herman: this is not a formal objection, just making my opinion clear...

16:14:36 <gavinc> in fact it is = to -1

Gavin Carothers: in fact it is = to -1

16:14:43 <PatH> passed with a scrape from ivans fender

Patrick Hayes: passed with a scrape from ivans fender

16:15:13 <davidwood> RESOLVED: We will call a recommended dataset syntax "TriG", but informally and in the media type, "trig".

RESOLVED: We will call a recommended dataset syntax "TriG", but informally and in the media type, "trig".

16:15:13 <sandro> people aren'y happy, but they can live with it.

Sandro Hawke: people aren'y happy, but they can live with it.

16:15:18 <ivan> s/-0.9999.../-0.9/
16:15:20 <Guus> right

Guus Schreiber: right

16:15:28 <davidwood> PROPOSED: In our dataset syntax, a "=" MUST NOT appear between the name and the graph.

PROPOSED: In our dataset syntax, a "=" MUST NOT appear between the name and the graph.

16:15:33 <ivan> +1

Ivan Herman: +1

16:15:33 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1

16:15:42 <SteveH> +1

Steve Harris: +1

16:15:45 <gavinc> +1

Gavin Carothers: +1

16:15:47 <gkellogg> +1

Gregg Kellogg: +1

16:15:48 <cygri> +1

Richard Cyganiak: +1

16:15:49 <davidwood> +1

David Wood: +1

16:15:50 <Guus> +1

Guus Schreiber: +1

16:15:51 <AndyS> +1

Andy Seaborne: +1

16:15:52 <ericP> +1

Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1

16:15:52 <MacTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

16:15:53 <pchampin> +1

+1

16:15:54 <AZ> +1

Antoine Zimmermann: +1

16:15:58 <LeeF> +1

Lee Feigenbaum: +1

16:15:59 <yvesr> +0.5

Yves Raimond: +0.5

16:16:02 <PatH> +1

Patrick Hayes: +1

16:16:05 <cygri> where "our dataset syntax" is the TriG-like one

Richard Cyganiak: where "our dataset syntax" is the TriG-like one

16:16:12 <pchampin> sandro: "=" was optional in the original TriG syntax, but

Sandro Hawke: "=" was optional in the original TriG syntax, but

16:16:14 <gavinc> yay, draft now matches resolution ;)

Gavin Carothers: yay, draft now matches resolution ;)

16:16:14 <sandro> yes, indeed.

Sandro Hawke: yes, indeed.

16:16:17 <cgreer> +1

Charles Greer: +1

16:16:17 <pchampin> ... people rarely used it, and

... people rarely used it, and

16:16:22 <pchampin> ... it does not match the semantics

... it does not match the semantics

16:16:23 <davidwood> RESOLVED: In our TriG dataset syntax, a "=" MUST NOT appear between the name and the graph.

RESOLVED: In our TriG dataset syntax, a "=" MUST NOT appear between the name and the graph.

16:16:36 <davidwood> PROPOSED: In our TriG dataset syntax, the case-insensitive keyword "graph" MUST NOT appear before the name, in a name-graph pair.

PROPOSED: In our TriG dataset syntax, the case-insensitive keyword "graph" MUST NOT appear before the name, in a name-graph pair.

16:16:43 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

16:16:46 <Arnaud> +1

Arnaud Le Hors: +1

16:16:52 <yvesr> that's a concern with calling the syntax TriG though, as it's not anymore compatible with old-TriG

Yves Raimond: that's a concern with calling the syntax TriG though, as it's not anymore compatible with old-TriG

16:16:53 <gkellogg> +1

Gregg Kellogg: +1

16:17:07 <cygri> pchampin, i'm just being pedantic

Richard Cyganiak: pchampin, i'm just being pedantic

16:17:12 <SteveH> yvesr, yes, but in practice no-one used the =

Steve Harris: yvesr, yes, but in practice no-one used the =

16:17:13 <PatH> +1

Patrick Hayes: +1

16:17:13 <MacTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

16:17:21 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1

16:17:22 <davidwood> ack ivan

David Wood: ack ivan

16:17:49 <pchampin> ivan: the problem with the GRAPH keyword,

Ivan Herman: the problem with the GRAPH keyword,

16:18:05 <pchampin> ... but we are creating a strange incompatibility with Turtle

... but we are creating a strange incompatibility with Turtle

16:18:28 <SteveH> q+

Steve Harris: q+

16:18:29 <gavinc> yes well allowing BASE and PREFIX was a mistake, but no one else seems to think so :P

Gavin Carothers: yes well allowing BASE and PREFIX was a mistake, but no one else seems to think so :P

16:18:41 <pchampin> ... where we have accepted SPARQL-like constructs

... where we have accepted SPARQL-like constructs

16:18:41 <SteveH> allowing BOTH was a mistake

Steve Harris: allowing BOTH was a mistake

16:18:44 <davidwood> ack SteveH

David Wood: ack SteveH

16:19:04 <gavinc> +1 SteveH

Gavin Carothers: +1 SteveH

16:19:23 <pchampin> steveh: I thought this was a feature "at-risk"

Steve Harris: I thought this was a feature "at-risk"

16:19:38 <pchampin> ... so it might not be kept anyway

... so it might not be kept anyway

16:19:57 <PatH> +1 to "at risk"

Patrick Hayes: +1 to "at risk"

16:19:59 <pchampin> ivan: ok, so I would put it "at-risk" in our TriG as well

Ivan Herman: ok, so I would put it "at-risk" in our TriG as well

16:20:08 <davidwood> PROPOSED: In our TriG dataset syntax, the case-insensitive keyword "graph" MUST NOT appear before the name, in a name-graph pair.  This is to be an "at risk" feature.

PROPOSED: In our TriG dataset syntax, the case-insensitive keyword "graph" MUST NOT appear before the name, in a name-graph pair. This is to be an "at risk" feature.

16:20:10 <pchampin> ... depending on the outcome of Turtle

... depending on the outcome of Turtle

16:20:14 <ivan> +1

Ivan Herman: +1

16:20:19 <gavinc> +1

Gavin Carothers: +1

16:20:23 <SteveH> +1

Steve Harris: +1

16:20:23 <LeeF> +1

Lee Feigenbaum: +1

16:20:25 <yvesr> +1

Yves Raimond: +1

16:20:26 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1

16:20:26 <gkellogg> +1

Gregg Kellogg: +1

16:20:31 <MacTed> +1 as revised

Ted Thibodeau: +1 as revised

16:20:31 <davidwood> +1

David Wood: +1

16:20:34 <AZ> +1

Antoine Zimmermann: +1

16:20:34 <cygri> ±0

Richard Cyganiak: ±0

16:20:43 <AndyS> +1 (make the at risk related to TTL)

Andy Seaborne: +1 (make the at risk related to TTL)

16:20:43 <sandro> (the AT RISK be between "MUST NOT" and "MAY")

Sandro Hawke: (the AT RISK be between "MUST NOT" and "MAY")

16:21:01 <Arnaud> +1

Arnaud Le Hors: +1

16:21:05 <cgreer> +1

Charles Greer: +1

16:21:09 <pchampin> +0

+0

16:21:21 <davidwood> RESOLVED: In our TriG dataset syntax, the case-insensitive keyword "graph" MUST NOT appear before the name, in a name-graph pair.  This is to be an "at risk" feature.

RESOLVED: In our TriG dataset syntax, the case-insensitive keyword "graph" MUST NOT appear before the name, in a name-graph pair.  This is to be an "at risk" feature.

16:21:57 <Zakim> -ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: -ivan

16:21:57 <PatH> ✈

Patrick Hayes: ✈

16:21:58 <Zakim> -gkellogg

Zakim IRC Bot: -gkellogg

16:21:59 <Zakim> -cygri

Zakim IRC Bot: -cygri

16:22:00 <Zakim> -ScottB

Zakim IRC Bot: -ScottB

16:22:00 <Zakim> -yvesr

Zakim IRC Bot: -yvesr

16:22:01 <gavinc> trailing . is in http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/trig/index.html#sec-graph-statements

Gavin Carothers: trailing . is in http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/trig/index.html#sec-graph-statements

16:22:01 <Zakim> -davidwood

Zakim IRC Bot: -davidwood

16:22:01 <Zakim> -SteveH

Zakim IRC Bot: -SteveH

16:22:02 <sandro> sandro: we're just left with "default graph" stuff.

Sandro Hawke: we're just left with "default graph" stuff. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:22:02 <Zakim> - +1.408.996.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.408.996.aaaa

16:22:04 <Zakim> -MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed

16:22:06 <Zakim> -AZ

Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ



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