None.
15:44:21 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/02/29-rdf-wg-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/02/29-rdf-wg-irc ←
15:44:23 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
15:44:25 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394 ←
15:44:25 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot ←
15:44:26 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:44:26 <trackbot> Date: 29 February 2012
15:45:54 <ivan> zakim, this will be rdfwg
Ivan Herman: zakim, this will be rdfwg ←
15:45:54 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, ivan ←
15:49:07 <ivan> Zakim has a leap year bug… it does not recognize the 'this will be XXX' command. But if dialing in with the code, it will start (at least that is what our system guys told me…)
Ivan Herman: Zakim has a leap year bug… it does not recognize the 'this will be XXX' command. But if dialing in with the code, it will start (at least that is what our system guys told me…) ←
15:52:31 <AndyS> New UC --: <rdf-wg> :teleconDate [ :happendOn "2012-02-29"^^xsd:date ] .
Andy Seaborne: New UC --: <rdf-wg> :teleconDate [ :happendOn "2012-02-29"^^xsd:date ] . ←
16:00:25 <sandro> Zakim, this is rdf
(No events recorded for 7 minutes)
Sandro Hawke: Zakim, this is rdf ←
16:00:25 <Zakim> ok, sandro; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, sandro; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM ←
16:00:27 <Zakim> +Guus
Zakim IRC Bot: +Guus ←
16:00:30 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
Sandro Hawke: RRSAgent, pointer? ←
16:00:30 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2012/02/29-rdf-wg-irc#T16-00-30
RRSAgent IRC Bot: See http://www.w3.org/2012/02/29-rdf-wg-irc#T16-00-30 ←
16:00:34 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip ←
16:00:34 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made ←
16:00:36 <Zakim> +Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan ←
16:00:47 <Zakim> +??P5
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P5 ←
16:00:48 <Zakim> +bhyland
Zakim IRC Bot: +bhyland ←
16:00:57 <davidwood> Zakim, bhyland is me
David Wood: Zakim, bhyland is me ←
16:00:57 <Zakim> +davidwood; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +davidwood; got it ←
16:01:01 <Zakim> -Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan ←
16:01:17 <Zakim> +Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: +Arnaud ←
16:01:24 <Zakim> +??P8
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P8 ←
16:01:36 <AZ> zakim, ??p8 is me
Antoine Zimmermann: zakim, ??p8 is me ←
16:01:36 <Zakim> +AZ; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ; got it ←
16:01:38 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software ←
16:01:46 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me ←
16:01:46 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it ←
16:01:47 <Zakim> +EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP ←
16:01:47 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
16:01:48 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
16:01:49 <AndyS> zakim, ??P5 is me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, ??P5 is me ←
16:01:49 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it ←
16:03:43 <Zakim> +mhausenblas
Zakim IRC Bot: +mhausenblas ←
16:03:45 <Zakim> +Souri
Zakim IRC Bot: +Souri ←
16:03:50 <cygri> zakim, mhausenblas is temporarily me
Richard Cyganiak: zakim, mhausenblas is temporarily me ←
16:03:54 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +cygri; got it ←
16:05:00 <Zakim> +AlexHall
Zakim IRC Bot: +AlexHall ←
16:05:07 <Zakim> +FabGandon
Zakim IRC Bot: +FabGandon ←
16:05:39 <ivan> zakim, code?
Ivan Herman: zakim, code? ←
16:05:39 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ivan ←
16:05:56 <Zakim> +PatH
Zakim IRC Bot: +PatH ←
16:05:57 <davidwood> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 22 Feb telecon:
David Wood: PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 22 Feb telecon: ←
16:05:57 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-02-15
David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-02-15 ←
16:06:16 <ericP> scribenick: ericP
(Scribe set to Eric Prud'hommeaux)
16:06:55 <PatH> thanks eric
Patrick Hayes: thanks eric ←
16:07:04 <Zakim> +Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan ←
16:07:04 <davidwood> RESOLVED to accept the minutes of the 22 Feb telecon
David Wood: RESOLVED to accept the minutes of the 22 Feb telecon ←
16:07:07 <davidwood> Action item review:
David Wood: Action item review: ←
16:07:07 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - item
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - item ←
16:07:07 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview
David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview ←
16:07:07 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open
David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open ←
16:08:03 <Zakim> +??P30
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P30 ←
16:08:08 <ericP> antoine: ACTION-149 in progress
Antoine Zimmermann: ACTION-149 in progress ←
16:08:23 <ericP> ... will add references to related URLs
... will add references to related URLs ←
16:09:04 <ericP> sandro: i think you should focus on the 5 use cases on @@1
Sandro Hawke: i think you should focus on the 5 use cases on http: ←
16:09:29 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Why_Graphs
Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Why_Graphs ←
16:09:31 <ericP> antoine: i tried to focus on easy use cases listed as priority A on the use case page @@2
Antoine Zimmermann: i tried to focus on easy use cases listed as priority A on the use case page @@2 ←
16:09:34 <AndyS> ?? Sandro says they are his personal choice ??
Andy Seaborne: ?? Sandro says they are his personal choice ?? ←
16:09:42 <ericP> s/@@1/http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Why_Graphs
16:09:51 <ericP> s{@@1}{http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Why_Graphs}
s{@@1}{http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Why_Graphs} ←
16:10:08 <sandro> AndyS, I just didnt want to presume anything from the WG at that point.
Sandro Hawke: AndyS, I just didnt want to presume anything from the WG at that point. ←
16:10:21 <davidwood> Close ACTION-148
David Wood: Close ACTION-148 ←
16:10:21 <trackbot> ACTION-148 Write email about the "islands" idea closed
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-148 Write email about the "islands" idea closed ←
16:11:27 <davidwood> Close ACTION-141
David Wood: Close ACTION-141 ←
16:11:27 <trackbot> ACTION-141 Propose a vocabulary and semantics for adding timestamps to RDF graphs closed
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-141 Propose a vocabulary and semantics for adding timestamps to RDF graphs closed ←
16:11:43 <zwu2> zakim, code?
16:11:43 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), zwu2 ←
16:12:30 <Zakim> +zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2 ←
16:12:32 <Zakim> +??P32
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P32 ←
16:12:38 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
16:12:38 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: zwu2 should now be muted ←
16:12:47 <ericP> pat: re: ACITON-140, agree that only XSD 1.1 semantics implications are more valid forms, and that we refer to xsd:identity, not xsd:equality
Patrick Hayes: re: ACITON-140, agree that only XSD 1.1 semantics implications are more valid forms, and that we refer to xsd:identity, not xsd:equality ←
16:13:05 <ericP> ... do we want to incorporate facets?
... do we want to incorporate facets? ←
16:13:10 <ericP> sandro: like from OWL?
Sandro Hawke: like from OWL2? ←
16:13:14 <AlexHall> I thought Pat's action was to review the WG note: http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-xsch-datatypes/
Alex Hall: I thought Pat's action was to review the WG note: http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-xsch-datatypes/ ←
16:13:20 <ericP> s/OWL/OWL2/
16:14:19 <yvesr> Zakim, who is on the phone?
Yves Raimond: Zakim, who is on the phone? ←
16:14:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see pfps, Sandro, Guus, AndyS, davidwood, Arnaud, AZ, MacTed (muted), EricP, cygri, Souri, AlexHall, FabGandon, PatH, Ivan, ??P30, zwu2 (muted), ??P32
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see pfps, Sandro, Guus, AndyS, davidwood, Arnaud, AZ, MacTed (muted), EricP, cygri, Souri, AlexHall, FabGandon, PatH, Ivan, ??P30, zwu2 (muted), ??P32 ←
16:14:27 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P32 is me
Yves Raimond: Zakim, ??P32 is me ←
16:14:27 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +yvesr; got it ←
16:15:13 <Zakim> +David_Todd
Zakim IRC Bot: +David_Todd ←
16:15:32 <FabGandon> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-xml/index.html
Fabien Gandon: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-xml/index.html ←
16:15:34 <pchampin> Zakim, David_Todd is me
Pierre-Antoine Champin: Zakim, David_Todd is me ←
16:15:34 <Zakim> +pchampin; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +pchampin; got it ←
16:15:46 <davidwood> Topic: Turtle Escape Sequences
16:16:01 <ericP> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-strings
http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-strings ←
16:17:27 <AndyS> Does not allow \u in strings?
Andy Seaborne: Does not allow \u in strings? ←
16:19:51 <cygri> +1 to 4.4, it looks good
Richard Cyganiak: +1 to 4.4, it looks good ←
16:21:00 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
16:22:02 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
16:22:12 <davidwood> ack cygri
David Wood: ack cygri ←
16:22:48 <sandro> cygri: Why not name the different escape mechanisms, then use those names when saying which kind is allowed where. eg "Local Name Escaping", etc.
Richard Cyganiak: Why not name the different escape mechanisms, then use those names when saying which kind is allowed where. eg "Local Name Escaping", etc. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:23:21 <sandro> ... "Magic Special Character Escaping" is \t stuff. etc. Then say which you can do each place.
Sandro Hawke: ... "Magic Special Character Escaping" is \t stuff. etc. Then say which you can do each place. ←
16:23:29 <sandro> +1 cygri
Sandro Hawke: +1 cygri ←
16:23:57 <sandro> ericP: Sounds reasonable.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Sounds reasonable. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:24:08 <sandro> ... I'll present two options.
Sandro Hawke: ... I'll present two options. ←
16:24:10 <ericP> cygri: editorial proposal: name the escaping mechanisms and reference the names in e.g. IRI, local names, strings
Richard Cyganiak: editorial proposal: name the escaping mechanisms and reference the names in e.g. IRI, local names, strings ←
16:24:16 <davidwood> ack sandro
David Wood: ack sandro ←
16:25:26 <cygri> +1 sandro, to giving *some* explicit name to these escape mechanisms also makes talking about this stuff much easier
Richard Cyganiak: +1 sandro, to giving *some* explicit name to these escape mechanisms also makes talking about this stuff much easier ←
16:26:08 <ericP> PROPOSAL: remove section 4.3 in <http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-strings> and remove issue tag on 4.4
PROPOSED: remove section 4.3 in <http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-strings> and remove issue tag on 4.4 ←
16:26:12 <sandro> sandro: if you can't come up with good names for the types, then just use type-1-escaping, type-2-escaping, etc. And have a table of which works where.
Sandro Hawke: if you can't come up with good names for the types, then just use type-1-escaping, type-2-escaping, etc. And have a table of which works where. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:26:19 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
16:26:21 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
16:26:23 <AndyS> +1
Andy Seaborne: +1 ←
16:26:24 <davidwood> +1
David Wood: +1 ←
16:26:24 <cygri> +1
Richard Cyganiak: +1 ←
16:26:26 <MacTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
16:26:27 <ericP> +1
+1 ←
16:26:32 <PatH> +1
Patrick Hayes: +1 ←
16:26:33 <zwu2> +1
16:26:34 <pchampin> +1
16:26:34 <pfps> +1
16:26:36 <Arnaud> +1
Arnaud Le Hors: +1 ←
16:26:45 <yvesr> +1
Yves Raimond: +1 ←
16:26:49 <AlexHall> +1
16:26:51 <Souri> +1
Souripriya Das: +1 ←
16:27:37 <ericP> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-escapes
http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-escapes ←
16:28:34 <cygri> use both examples.
Richard Cyganiak: use both examples. ←
16:28:39 <pfps> +1 to previous proposal (dropped because my wireless dropped)
Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 to previous proposal (dropped because my wireless dropped) ←
16:30:21 <pchampin> I too would keep both examples.
Pierre-Antoine Champin: I too would keep both examples. ←
16:30:56 <Zakim> +LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: +LeeF ←
16:31:51 <sandro> sandro: Also, and say it's different from /Foo-bar
Sandro Hawke: Also, and say it's different from /Foo-bar [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:31:58 <sandro> davidwood: Good idea.
David Wood: Good idea. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:33:46 <sandro> ericP: Note is changed; I'll do the naming the different forms of escaping for tomorrow.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Note is changed; I'll do the naming the different forms of escaping for tomorrow. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:34:04 <davidwood> Topic: Black Hole
16:34:13 <davidwood> s/Black Hole/Named Graphs/
16:34:20 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me ←
16:34:20 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted ←
16:35:16 <ericP> PatH: do graph labels mean the same thing in different data sets?
Patrick Hayes: do graph labels mean the same thing in different data sets? ←
16:35:27 <ericP> ... these questions affect other decisions
... these questions affect other decisions ←
16:36:00 <ericP> davidwood: big ups to my bro PatH for forcing the WG to adopt philosophical rigor in our terminology, yo
David Wood: big ups to my bro PatH for forcing the WG to adopt philosophical rigor in our terminology, yo ←
16:37:46 <davidwood> Subtopic: Islands 🌴
16:37:57 <pfps> ?? to David's channelling of Andy
Peter Patel-Schneider: ?? to David's channelling of Andy ←
16:37:58 <ericP> davidwood: in AndyS's island terminology, two graphs may use a uri in the 4th slot to mean different things
David Wood: in AndyS's island terminology, two graphs may use a uri in the 4th slot to mean different things ←
16:38:41 <ericP> AndyS: the island idea was that there's a *social* step of assembling the data, and we're interested in that step
Andy Seaborne: the island idea was that there's a *social* step of assembling the data, and we're interested in that step ←
16:38:51 <ericP> PatH: does it have technical consequences?
Patrick Hayes: does it have technical consequences? ←
16:38:55 <davidwood> Pat said, "What [2] says is that *the same* URI when used in one graph can mean something completely different when used in another graph, and that *this is perfectly correct* and even in fact *consistent*. What this means is that every URI in every graph is interpreted locally to that graph, which in effect makes every URI into a blank node (since this is how blank nodes are interpreted.) This is dissolving the entire Web in a kind of universal solvent." (w
David Wood: Pat said, "What [2] says is that *the same* URI when used in one graph can mean something completely different when used in another graph, and that *this is perfectly correct* and even in fact *consistent*. What this means is that every URI in every graph is interpreted locally to that graph, which in effect makes every URI into a blank node (since this is how blank nodes are interpreted.) This is dissolving the entire Web in a kind of universal solvent." (w ←
16:39:04 <ericP> ... must the machinery support it?
... must the machinery support it? ←
16:39:28 <ericP> PatH: the obvious consequence is that the machinery that we have shouldn't force false consequences
Patrick Hayes: the obvious consequence is that the machinery that we have shouldn't force false consequences ←
16:39:42 <PatH> that was andy
Patrick Hayes: that was andy ←
16:41:03 <PatH> btw, that mention of bnodes was wrong, I acknowledge.
Patrick Hayes: btw, that mention of bnodes was wrong, I acknowledge. ←
16:41:05 <ericP> davidwood: in linked data, we say that using the same IRI in different places means the same thing.
David Wood: in linked data, we say that using the same IRI in different places means the same thing. ←
16:41:44 <ericP> AndyS: i think trying to address this technical hampers progress because we assume there's a single technical solution
Andy Seaborne: i think trying to address this technical hampers progress because we assume there's a single technical solution ←
16:42:13 <ericP> ... saying that "there's good practice and bad practice" is a weaker way forward
... saying that "there's good practice and bad practice" is a weaker way forward ←
16:42:40 <ericP> PatH: what "less ambitious" solution do you have in mind?
Patrick Hayes: what "less ambitious" solution do you have in mind? ←
16:42:48 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
16:42:54 <ericP> ... there are datasets out there, people use them in various ways
... there are datasets out there, people use them in various ways ←
16:43:09 <ericP> AndyS: we have claimed we will solve some use cases
Andy Seaborne: we have claimed we will solve some use cases ←
16:43:16 <ericP> ... maybe that's too ambitious
... maybe that's too ambitious ←
16:43:35 <ericP> ... we don't want to solve those use cases, we want to give folks machinery to solve those use cases
... we don't want to solve those use cases, we want to give folks machinery to solve those use cases ←
16:43:42 <ericP> ... we just have to not mess them up
... we just have to not mess them up ←
16:44:10 <PatH> q+
Patrick Hayes: q+ ←
16:44:21 <davidwood> ack sandro
David Wood: ack sandro ←
16:44:24 <ericP> davidwood: separating tech from social issues is helpful
David Wood: separating tech from social issues is helpful ←
16:44:31 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Why_Graphs
Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Why_Graphs ←
16:44:42 <Zakim> -pchampin
Zakim IRC Bot: -pchampin ←
16:45:13 <ericP> sandro: in editing Why_Graphs this AM, these are all things that people want to standardize
Sandro Hawke: in editing Why_Graphs this AM, these are all things that people want to standardize ←
16:45:42 <ericP> ... i don't think you can do any of these 5 things without defining semantics to trig
... i don't think you can do any of these 5 things without defining semantics to trig ←
16:46:05 <ericP> ... how can i do <shared web crawler> and <archiving web crawler> in the same world?
... how can i do <shared web crawler> and <archiving web crawler> in the same world? ←
16:46:17 <PatH> +1 sandro.
Patrick Hayes: +1 sandro. ←
16:46:25 <ericP> ... all use trig as a simple and obvious solution but they use it with different semantics
... all use trig as a simple and obvious solution but they use it with different semantics ←
16:46:42 <ericP> ... could scribble into trig some info about how it's being used
... could scribble into trig some info about how it's being used ←
16:47:08 <ericP> ... i think 2 and 3 share a semantics, and 4 just says you need bnodes shared between graphs
... i think 2 and 3 share a semantics, and 4 just says you need bnodes shared between graphs ←
16:47:23 <ericP> ... 3 semantics:
... 3 semantics: ←
16:47:36 <ericP> ... .. relation between name and graph is log:semantics
... .. relation between name and graph is log:semantics ←
16:47:48 <ericP> ... .. relation between name and graph is owl:sameAs
... .. relation between name and graph is owl:sameAs ←
16:47:59 <ericP> ... .. no relation between name and graph
... .. no relation between name and graph ←
16:48:39 <sandro> <a> owl:sameAs { <s> <p> <o> }
Sandro Hawke: <a> owl:sameAs { <s> <p> <o> } ←
16:48:45 <zwu2> sounds a bit odd :)
16:48:52 <ericP> ivan: so for owl:sameAs, an RDF graph becomes an OWL individual
Ivan Herman: so for owl:sameAs, an RDF graph becomes an OWL individual ←
16:49:34 <ericP> MacTed: when i say "Joe" and i say <http://joe.example/#> i mean the same joe
Ted Thibodeau: when i say "Joe" and i say <http://joe.example/#> i mean the same joe ←
16:49:41 <AndyS> q+
Andy Seaborne: q+ ←
16:49:46 <ericP> ... when you say "Joe" you mean Joe Jr.
... when you say "Joe" you mean Joe Jr. ←
16:50:05 <sandro> pfps, in OWL2 is an owl:Ontology a kind of individual?
Sandro Hawke: pfps, in OWL2 is an owl:Ontology a kind of individual? ←
16:50:34 <ericP> ... likewise when you say <http://joe.example/#> you mean Joe Jr.
... likewise when you say <http://joe.example/#> you mean Joe Jr. ←
16:51:00 <pfps> sandro, you just asked a question that does not really have an informal answer
Peter Patel-Schneider: sandro, you just asked a question that does not really have an informal answer ←
16:51:05 <AndyS> q-
Andy Seaborne: q- ←
16:51:38 <sandro> pfps, do you agree with AZ? (No in Direct Semantics, Yes in RDF-based semantics) ?
Sandro Hawke: pfps, do you agree with AZ? (No in Direct Semantics, Yes in RDF-based semantics) ? ←
16:51:40 <ericP> ericP: when i write a language, i expect the compiler to give me errors
Eric Prud'hommeaux: when i write a language, i expect the compiler to give me errors ←
16:52:01 <ericP> PatH: you can expect to discover inconsistency
Patrick Hayes: you can expect to discover inconsistency ←
16:52:17 <ericP> ... the role of semantics is to deliver to you the fact that there's an abberation
... the role of semantics is to deliver to you the fact that there's an abberation ←
16:52:27 <Zakim> +??P2
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2 ←
16:52:34 <pchampin> zakim, ??P2 is me
Pierre-Antoine Champin: zakim, ??P2 is me ←
16:52:34 <Zakim> +pchampin; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +pchampin; got it ←
16:52:44 <ericP> MacTed: i have the impression that folks are trying to prevent such abberations from occuring
Ted Thibodeau: i have the impression that folks are trying to prevent such abberations from occuring ←
16:52:58 <PatH> q-
Patrick Hayes: q- ←
16:53:01 <ericP> PatH: i don't think that [preventing abberations] can be done
Patrick Hayes: i don't think that [preventing abberations] can be done ←
16:53:56 <AZ> isn't TriG just a syntax?
Antoine Zimmermann: isn't TriG just a syntax? ←
16:53:59 <pfps> sandro, in OWL 2 Direct Semantics owl:Ontology does not appear
Peter Patel-Schneider: sandro, in OWL 2 Direct Semantics owl:Ontology does not appear ←
16:54:02 <ericP> ... if an IRI is used as a graph label in a trig doc, and used as a label for another graph in another doc, is it the same thing?
... if an IRI is used as a graph label in a trig doc, and used as a label for another graph in another doc, is it the same thing? ←
16:54:18 <ericP> q?
q? ←
16:54:37 <ericP> AndyS: i've never seen it meant to label different things
Andy Seaborne: i've never seen it meant to label different things ←
16:54:51 <ericP> ... if it's contradictory, you've screwed up
... if it's contradictory, you've screwed up ←
16:54:58 <ericP> q+
q+ ←
16:55:24 <ericP> sandro: i think the labeling relation is different
Sandro Hawke: i think the labeling relation is different ←
16:55:29 <ericP> ... (generally)
... (generally) ←
16:55:51 <ericP> AndyS: if you allow that, you'd allow it to be a partial description
Andy Seaborne: if you allow that, you'd allow it to be a partial description ←
16:57:34 <zwu2> q+
16:58:40 <ericP> q-
q- ←
16:58:53 <zwu2> zakim, unmute me
16:58:53 <Zakim> zwu2 should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: zwu2 should no longer be muted ←
16:58:53 <davidwood> ack ericP
David Wood: ack ericP ←
16:58:55 <AZ> +1 ericP
Antoine Zimmermann: +1 ericP ←
16:59:01 <Souri> I agree with MacTed: aberrations can happen within a single graph or when you merge multiple graphs ... a validation procedure can point it out ... that's all we can do
Souripriya Das: I agree with MacTed: aberrations can happen within a single graph or when you merge multiple graphs ... a validation procedure can point it out ... that's all we can do ←
16:59:01 <davidwood> ack zwu
David Wood: ack zwu ←
16:59:03 <ericP> ericP: i think the common usage of SPARQL gives the answer here
Eric Prud'hommeaux: i think the common usage of SPARQL gives the answer here ←
16:59:33 <ericP> ... and that we should say that the triples associated with a label mean that labeled graph has at least those triples
... and that we should say that the triples associated with a label mean that labeled graph has at least those triples ←
16:59:45 <PatH> q+
Patrick Hayes: q+ ←
16:59:49 <pchampin> q+
17:00:06 <ericP> zwu2: can we treat quads as syntactic sugar for reification
Zhe Wu: can we treat quads as syntactic sugar for reification ←
17:00:12 <ericP> ... ?
... ? ←
17:00:31 <ericP> sandro: if we figure out how we want to use quads, we can derive how that looks in triples
Sandro Hawke: if we figure out how we want to use quads, we can derive how that looks in triples ←
17:00:44 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
17:00:46 <davidwood> ack PatH
David Wood: ack PatH ←
17:00:49 <ericP> PatH: +1 to sandro
Patrick Hayes: +1 to sandro ←
17:01:08 <PatH> q-
Patrick Hayes: q- ←
17:01:18 <ericP> ... treating it as reification isn't consistent with this loose merging story, at least not without some work
... treating it as reification isn't consistent with this loose merging story, at least not without some work ←
17:01:20 <davidwood> ack pchampin
David Wood: ack pchampin ←
17:01:24 <sandro> sound problems
Sandro Hawke: sound problems ←
17:01:34 <PatH> hiccups?
Patrick Hayes: hiccups? ←
17:01:44 <ericP> pchampin: we are talking about what we want to do with a trig file rather than what it means
Pierre-Antoine Champin: we are talking about what we want to do with a trig file rather than what it means ←
17:01:49 <PatH> speak veeerrry slowly
Patrick Hayes: speak veeerrry slowly ←
17:01:55 <Arnaud> phone over ip or cell phone?
Arnaud Le Hors: phone over ip or cell phone? ←
17:02:09 <sandro> pchampin, SORRY but we really can't understand you.
Sandro Hawke: pchampin, SORRY but we really can't understand you. ←
17:02:18 <pchampin> I think I'm gone sorry
Pierre-Antoine Champin: I think I'm gone sorry ←
17:02:24 <Zakim> -pchampin
Zakim IRC Bot: -pchampin ←
17:02:44 <ericP> pchampin, can you write your point?
pchampin, can you write your point? ←
17:02:48 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
17:03:02 <pchampin> pchampin: shouldn't we focus on what a trig file *means*, rather than what we will *do* with it?
Pierre-Antoine Champin: shouldn't we focus on what a trig file *means*, rather than what we will *do* with it? [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
17:03:29 <ericP> davidwood: we've come back to this point several times: specifically, what do we want to do with a quad
David Wood: we've come back to this point several times: specifically, what do we want to do with a quad ←
17:03:31 <pchampin> pchampin: the question might be harder to answer, but then the answer to the other questions would follow
Pierre-Antoine Champin: the question might be harder to answer, but then the answer to the other questions would follow [ Scribe Assist by Pierre-Antoine Champin ] ←
17:03:53 <ericP> ... is it fair to say that these five use cases are divergent enough to keep us from making a solution?
... is it fair to say that these five use cases are divergent enough to keep us from making a solution? ←
17:04:51 <AZ> q+
Antoine Zimmermann: q+ ←
17:04:54 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-Designs
Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-Designs ←
17:05:02 <ericP> sandro: in the Why_Graphs, if you use trig in the intuitively obvious way, you end up with inconsistent uses
Sandro Hawke: in the Why_Graphs, if you use trig in the intuitively obvious way, you end up with inconsistent uses ←
17:05:39 <ericP> ... but you can use it consistently in any of the 6 ways used on http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-Designs
... but you can use it consistently in any of the 6 ways used on http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-Designs ←
17:05:48 <ericP> q+
q+ ←
17:06:01 <davidwood> ack AZ
David Wood: ack AZ ←
17:06:15 <ericP> AZ: trig is just a syntax
Antoine Zimmermann: trig is just a syntax ←
17:06:17 <Zakim> -AlexHall
Zakim IRC Bot: -AlexHall ←
17:06:20 <AndyS> The SPARQL dump/restore is priority A in the original list (#1.5)
Andy Seaborne: The SPARQL dump/restore is priority A in the original list (#1.5) ←
17:06:27 <ericP> ... using trig solves the problem at a syntactic level
... using trig solves the problem at a syntactic level ←
17:06:49 <ericP> ... we can could agree on the syntax first, and then derive the semantics
... we can could agree on the syntax first, and then derive the semantics ←
17:06:52 <PatH> q+
Patrick Hayes: q+ ←
17:07:03 <Zakim> +AlexHall
Zakim IRC Bot: +AlexHall ←
17:07:19 <Zakim> -AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS ←
17:07:37 <davidwood> ack ericP
David Wood: ack ericP ←
17:07:40 <AndyS> not dropped from my end :-(
Andy Seaborne: not dropped from my end :-( ←
17:07:43 <sandro> I think it's fine to use TriG as a default/example format for now.
Sandro Hawke: I think it's fine to use TriG as a default/example format for now. ←
17:08:15 <ericP> ericP: is there a clear winner on http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-Designs ?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: is there a clear winner on http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-Designs ? ←
17:08:17 <Zakim> +??P14
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P14 ←
17:08:22 <AndyS> zakim, ??P14 is me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, ??P14 is me ←
17:08:24 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it ←
17:08:24 <ericP> sandro: i pushed for #3
Sandro Hawke: i pushed for #3 ←
17:08:48 <ericP> ... AndyS and steve pushed back because of scale implementation costs
... AndyS and steve pushed back because of scale implementation costs ←
17:08:50 <davidwood> ack PatH
David Wood: ack PatH ←
17:09:03 <ericP> ... i now like 6, but need to work out tech details
... i now like 6, but need to work out tech details ←
17:09:19 <sandro> NOT "scale". Steve's concern was a CONSTANT time cost.
Sandro Hawke: NOT "scale". Steve's concern was a CONSTANT time cost. ←
17:09:36 <sandro> (or linear)
Sandro Hawke: (or linear) ←
17:09:42 <ericP> PatH: re: picking a syntax and deriving the semantics, these semantics are interchangable
Patrick Hayes: re: picking a syntax and deriving the semantics, these semantics are interchangable ←
17:09:59 <AZ> q+
Antoine Zimmermann: q+ ←
17:10:13 <ericP> ... in trig, there are cases where the 4th column is a label for something like time
... in trig, there are cases where the 4th column is a label for something like time ←
17:10:51 <davidwood> ack AZ
David Wood: ack AZ ←
17:10:51 <ericP> ... thinking of these things as graphs doesn't fit with all of the intuitions we want to express
... thinking of these things as graphs doesn't fit with all of the intuitions we want to express ←
17:11:03 <ericP> AZ: +1 to PatH
Antoine Zimmermann: +1 to PatH ←
17:11:37 <AndyS> That wasn't my concern. 1) feels too much like complete replumbing to the deployed data web. (2) explaining it to people unless we define graph literals in Turtle.
Andy Seaborne: That wasn't my concern. 1) feels too much like complete replumbing to the deployed data web. (2) explaining it to people unless we define graph literals in Turtle. ←
17:11:43 <ericP> ... with one syntax, we have a way of express stuff that we other way we can't express
... with one syntax, we have a way of express stuff that we other way we can't express ←
17:12:03 <ericP> ... we could standardize trig and nquads
... we could standardize trig and nquads ←
17:12:44 <sandro> sandro: TriG and N-Quads prejudice against solutions like Graph Objects (N3).
Sandro Hawke: TriG and N-Quads prejudice against solutions like Graph Objects (N3). [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
17:12:52 <ericP> sandro: those prejudice against solutions like Graph Objects (N3)
Sandro Hawke: those prejudice against solutions like Graph Objects (N3) ←
17:13:32 <PatH> Trig prejudices against 4th field as a time parameter.
Patrick Hayes: Trig prejudices against 4th field as a time parameter. ←
17:17:58 <sandro> Andy: as a group, I don't think we're sharing and building on each other's ideas
Andy Seaborne: as a group, I don't think we're sharing and building on each other's ideas [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
17:19:14 <Zakim> +pchampin
Zakim IRC Bot: +pchampin ←
17:19:50 <Zakim> -LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: -LeeF ←
17:20:11 <Zakim> -Guus
Zakim IRC Bot: -Guus ←
17:20:43 <Zakim> +LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: +LeeF ←
17:21:00 <zwu2> honestly, if we cannot reach a decision, then we are not ready
Zhe Wu: honestly, if we cannot reach a decision, then we are not ready ←
17:21:23 <ericP> or it's too late
or it's too late ←
17:21:28 <ericP> or it's hard
or it's hard ←
17:21:39 <PatH> i feel like I am making progress, for one.
Patrick Hayes: i feel like I am making progress, for one. ←
17:21:52 <AndyS> Several solutions are great, if it were a clean sheet of paper.
Andy Seaborne: Several solutions are great, if it were a clean sheet of paper. ←
17:22:56 <Zakim> -LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: -LeeF ←
17:22:59 <zwu2> bye
17:22:59 <Zakim> -Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan ←
17:23:03 <Zakim> -zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: -zwu2 ←
17:23:03 <PatH> bye
Patrick Hayes: bye ←
17:23:04 <Zakim> -AlexHall
Zakim IRC Bot: -AlexHall ←
17:23:04 <Zakim> -AZ
Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ ←
17:23:05 <Zakim> -pfps
Zakim IRC Bot: -pfps ←
17:23:07 <Zakim> -Souri
Zakim IRC Bot: -Souri ←
17:23:10 <Zakim> -Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro ←
17:23:16 <Zakim> -AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS ←
17:23:23 <Zakim> -MacTed
Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed ←
17:23:24 <Zakim> -Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud ←
17:23:26 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Scribes
David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Scribes ←
17:23:29 <Zakim> -pchampin
Zakim IRC Bot: -pchampin ←
17:23:30 <Zakim> -yvesr
Zakim IRC Bot: -yvesr ←
17:23:30 <Zakim> -PatH
Zakim IRC Bot: -PatH ←
17:23:46 <Zakim> -cygri
Zakim IRC Bot: -cygri ←
17:23:50 <Zakim> -davidwood
Zakim IRC Bot: -davidwood ←
17:23:54 <Zakim> -EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: -EricP ←
17:24:09 <ericP> RRSAgent, draft minutes
RRSAgent, draft minutes ←
17:24:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/02/29-rdf-wg-minutes.html ericP
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/02/29-rdf-wg-minutes.html ericP ←
17:24:17 <ericP> RRSAgent, make logs public
RRSAgent, make logs public ←
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