15:58:56 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/02/15-rdf-wg-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/02/15-rdf-wg-irc ←
15:58:58 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
15:59:00 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394 ←
15:59:00 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute ←
15:59:01 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:59:01 <trackbot> Date: 15 February 2012
15:59:45 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?
Andy Seaborne: zakim, who is on the phone? ←
15:59:45 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, AndyS ←
15:59:46 <Zakim> On IRC I see pfps, Zakim, RRSAgent, AZ, cygri, PatH, AndyS, danbri, ScottB, MacTed, ivan, mischat, yvesr, SteveH, manu1, gavinc, NickH, mdmdm, davidwood, manu, trackbot, sandro,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see pfps, Zakim, RRSAgent, AZ, cygri, PatH, AndyS, danbri, ScottB, MacTed, ivan, mischat, yvesr, SteveH, manu1, gavinc, NickH, mdmdm, davidwood, manu, trackbot, sandro, ←
15:59:46 <Zakim> ... ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: ... ericP ←
15:59:52 <gavinc> Zakim, mute me
Gavin Carothers: Zakim, mute me ←
15:59:52 <Zakim> sorry, gavinc, I don't know what conference this is
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, gavinc, I don't know what conference this is ←
16:00:01 <gavinc> Zakim, this is SW_RDFWG
Gavin Carothers: Zakim, this is SW_RDFWG ←
16:00:01 <Zakim> ok, gavinc; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, gavinc; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM ←
16:00:03 <AndyS> zakim, this is 73394
Andy Seaborne: zakim, this is 73394 ←
16:00:03 <Zakim> AndyS, this was already SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS, this was already SW_RDFWG()11:00AM ←
16:00:05 <Zakim> ok, AndyS; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, AndyS; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM ←
16:00:12 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?
Andy Seaborne: zakim, who is on the phone? ←
16:00:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P3, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Guus, [IPcaller], gavinc, ScottB
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see ??P3, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Guus, [IPcaller], gavinc, ScottB ←
16:00:17 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P3 is me
Yves Raimond: Zakim, ??P3 is me ←
16:00:17 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +yvesr; got it ←
16:00:18 <Zakim> +PatH
Zakim IRC Bot: +PatH ←
16:00:23 <gavinc> Zakim, mute me
Gavin Carothers: Zakim, mute me ←
16:00:23 <Zakim> gavinc should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: gavinc should now be muted ←
16:00:24 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller] ←
16:00:38 <Zakim> +mhausenblas
Zakim IRC Bot: +mhausenblas ←
16:00:39 <cygri> zakim, mhausenblas is temporarily me
Richard Cyganiak: zakim, mhausenblas is temporarily me ←
16:00:39 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +cygri; got it ←
16:00:51 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
16:00:51 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here? ←
16:00:52 <AndyS> zakim, IPcaller is me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, IPcaller is me ←
16:00:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see yvesr, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Guus, gavinc (muted), ScottB, PatH, cygri, [IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see yvesr, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Guus, gavinc (muted), ScottB, PatH, cygri, [IPcaller] ←
16:00:52 <Zakim> On IRC I see Guus, pfps, Zakim, RRSAgent, AZ, cygri, PatH, AndyS, danbri, ScottB, MacTed, ivan, mischat, yvesr, SteveH, manu1, gavinc, NickH, mdmdm, davidwood, manu, trackbot,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Guus, pfps, Zakim, RRSAgent, AZ, cygri, PatH, AndyS, danbri, ScottB, MacTed, ivan, mischat, yvesr, SteveH, manu1, gavinc, NickH, mdmdm, davidwood, manu, trackbot, ←
16:00:52 <Zakim> ... sandro, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: ... sandro, ericP ←
16:00:55 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it ←
16:00:56 <Zakim> +David_Wood
Zakim IRC Bot: +David_Wood ←
16:01:20 <Zakim> +??P14
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P14 ←
16:01:29 <Zakim> + +1.408.996.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.408.996.aaaa ←
16:01:44 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip ←
16:01:44 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made ←
16:01:45 <Zakim> +Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan ←
16:01:56 <Arnaud> Zakim, *aaaa is me
Arnaud Le Hors: Zakim, *aaaa is me ←
16:01:56 <Zakim> sorry, Arnaud, I do not recognize a party named '*aaaa'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, Arnaud, I do not recognize a party named '*aaaa' ←
16:02:03 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.443.212.aabb ←
16:02:12 <AlexHall> zakim, aabb is me
Alex Hall: zakim, aabb is me ←
16:02:12 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AlexHall; got it ←
16:02:19 <Arnaud> zakim, aaaa is me
Arnaud Le Hors: zakim, aaaa is me ←
16:02:19 <Zakim> +Arnaud; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Arnaud; got it ←
16:02:37 <AZ> \me zakim, ??P14 is me
Antoine Zimmermann: \me zakim, ??P14 is me ←
16:03:18 <Zakim> +EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP ←
16:03:19 <ScottB> Scribe: ScottB
(Scribe set to Scott Bauer)
16:03:44 <davidwood> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 08 Feb telecon:
David Wood: PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 08 Feb telecon: ←
16:03:44 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-02-08
David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-02-08 ←
16:03:52 <ScottB> Topic: Meetings from minutes last week
16:04:25 <ScottB> David: closing issue or action 166 which doesn't exist
David Wood: closing issue or ACTION-166 which doesn't exist ←
16:04:56 <ScottB> … this is issue 66
16:05:21 <ScottB> … this issue is updated
… this issue is updated ←
16:06:29 <Arnaud> this was an interesting statement "I see you on the phone but I don't hear you" :)
Arnaud Le Hors: this was an interesting statement "I see you on the phone but I don't hear you" :) ←
16:06:46 <ScottB> … will have to forgo accepting these minutes till later
… will have to forgo accepting these minutes till later ←
16:06:58 <davidwood> We will wait on the minutes of 8 Feb until they are cleaned up.
David Wood: We will wait on the minutes of 8 Feb until they are cleaned up. ←
16:07:07 <davidwood> Action item review:
David Wood: Action item review: ←
16:07:07 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - item
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - item ←
16:07:07 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview
David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview ←
16:07:07 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open
David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open ←
16:07:15 <ScottB> Topic: Action item review
16:07:45 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-Designs#TriG.2Fstate
David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-Designs#TriG.2Fstate ←
16:07:59 <ScottB> David: Action-145 merge page with Sandros. believe this is complete
David Wood: ACTION-145 merge page with Sandros. believe this is complete ←
16:08:09 <davidwood> close Action-145
David Wood: close ACTION-145 ←
16:08:09 <trackbot> ACTION-145 Merge his page with Sandro's closed
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-145 Merge his page with Sandro's closed ←
16:08:12 <Zakim> -Guus
Zakim IRC Bot: -Guus ←
16:08:32 <ScottB> Alex: back to action 166 could be 136
Alex Hall: back to ACTION-166 could be 136 ←
16:08:41 <ScottB> … closed last week.
… closed last week. ←
16:08:54 <Zakim> +Guus
Zakim IRC Bot: +Guus ←
16:09:18 <ScottB> David: Eric will you edit the minutes to reflect this.
David Wood: Eric will you edit the minutes to reflect this. ←
16:09:34 <ScottB> Eric: I'll try to do this
Eric Prud'hommeaux: I'll try to do this ←
16:10:06 <AlexHall> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Chatlog_2012-02-08
Alex Hall: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Chatlog_2012-02-08 ←
16:11:14 <ScottB> David: open actions that are past due.
David Wood: open actions that are past due. ←
16:11:26 <ScottB> … quite a few are overdue.
… quite a few are overdue. ←
16:12:33 <Zakim> +danbri
Zakim IRC Bot: +danbri ←
16:13:15 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-02-08 now reflects the s/166/136/ change
Eric Prud'hommeaux: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-02-08 now reflects the s/166/136/ change ←
16:13:16 <davidwood> close Action-137
David Wood: close ACTION-137 ←
16:13:16 <trackbot> ACTION-137 Write down an example of the syntaxes for the named graphs closed
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-137 Write down an example of the syntaxes for the named graphs closed ←
16:13:27 <ScottB> Scott is leaving the actions unscibed hoping thats the right thing to do.
Scott is leaving the actions unscibed hoping thats the right thing to do. ←
16:14:46 <davidwood> close Action-142
David Wood: close ACTION-142 ←
16:14:46 <trackbot> ACTION-142 Repsond to multiline comments comment of Danny Ayres closed
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-142 Repsond to multiline comments comment of Danny Ayres closed ←
16:16:35 <ScottB> David: there is an agenda item for action 143
David Wood: there is an agenda item for ACTION-143 ←
16:16:49 <davidwood> close Action-143
David Wood: close ACTION-143 ←
16:16:49 <trackbot> ACTION-143 Propose text to say that %nn is *NOT* unescaped while parsing Turtle closed
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-143 Propose text to say that %nn is *NOT* unescaped while parsing Turtle closed ←
16:17:14 <ericP> [[
Eric Prud'hommeaux: [[ ←
16:17:15 <ericP> The <PERCENT> terminal matches %-encoding sequences. These sequences are not decoded during processing; a term written as <http://a.example/%66oo\-bar> in Turtle designates the RDF IRI http://a.example/%66oo-bar.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: The <PERCENT> terminal matches %-encoding sequences. These sequences are not decoded during processing; a term written as <http://a.example/%66oo\-bar> in Turtle designates the RDF IRI http://a.example/%66oo-bar. ←
16:17:20 <ericP> ]]
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ]] ←
16:17:44 <cygri> i think my ACTION-138 and ACTION-117 can also be closed
Richard Cyganiak: i think my ACTION-138 and ACTION-117 can also be closed ←
16:18:35 <gavinc> ericP, change from http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf to https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf
Gavin Carothers: ericP, change from http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf to https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf ←
16:18:37 <davidwood> close Action-117
David Wood: close ACTION-117 ←
16:18:37 <trackbot> ACTION-117 Check status of duration datatypes closed
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-117 Check status of duration datatypes closed ←
16:18:56 <davidwood> Action-138
16:19:03 <davidwood> close Action-138
David Wood: close ACTION-138 ←
16:19:03 <trackbot> ACTION-138 Ask the group whether it needs to do anything about http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-xsch-datatypes/ closed
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-138 Ask the group whether it needs to do anything about http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-xsch-datatypes/ closed ←
16:19:26 <davidwood> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 08 Feb telecon:
David Wood: PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 08 Feb telecon: ←
16:19:26 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-02-08
David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2012-02-08 ←
16:19:27 <ScottB> David: back to the minutes
David Wood: back to the minutes ←
16:19:44 <ScottB> RESOLVED: last weeks minutes accepted
RESOLVED: last weeks minutes accepted ←
16:20:21 <ScottB> Topic: Turtle
16:21:27 <ScottB> Eric: the copy paste is just one issue. treat the as an opaque string.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: the copy paste is just one issue. treat the as an opaque string. ←
16:21:36 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/rdf/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-strings
Eric Prud'hommeaux: http://www.w3.org/rdf/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-strings ←
16:22:03 <gavinc> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-strings
Gavin Carothers: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/index.html#sec-strings ←
16:23:14 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software ←
16:23:18 <ScottB> … the other issue turtle strings and iri can use escape sequences. two types: one in the table listed and let char through otherwise thought of as punctuation.
… the other issue turtle strings and iri can use escape sequences. two types: one in the table listed and let char through otherwise thought of as punctuation. ←
16:23:19 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me ←
16:23:19 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it ←
16:23:20 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
16:23:20 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
16:23:25 <AndyS> We are going to remove \t etc from IRIs (I hope!). ie. strings, IRI and prefixed name have different scape rules in the detail.
Andy Seaborne: We are going to remove \t etc from IRIs (I hope!). ie. strings, IRI and prefixed name have different scape rules in the detail. ←
16:23:32 <AndyS> q+
Andy Seaborne: q+ ←
16:23:41 <ScottB> … clarifies that there is two types of escaping.
… clarifies that there is two types of escaping. ←
16:23:45 <davidwood> ack AndyS
David Wood: ack AndyS ←
16:23:47 <gavinc> Zakim, unmute me
Gavin Carothers: Zakim, unmute me ←
16:23:47 <Zakim> gavinc should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: gavinc should no longer be muted ←
16:24:13 <ScottB> Andy: suggest we take tab reline and double quote out of iris
Andy Seaborne: suggest we take tab reline and double quote out of iris ←
16:24:49 <PatH> do we have authority over iri syntax?
Patrick Hayes: do we have authority over iri syntax? ←
16:25:01 <ScottB> … three kinds of escapes. code points, white space and double quotes.
… three kinds of escapes. code points, white space and double quotes. ←
16:25:19 <ScottB> Gavin: the backslash quote is only in some string productions.
Gavin Carothers: the backslash quote is only in some string productions. ←
16:25:36 <ScottB> Andy: It's clear which bits are which elements.
Andy Seaborne: It's clear which bits are which elements. ←
16:26:00 <ScottB> Gavin: match the grammer
Gavin Carothers: match the grammer ←
16:26:14 <ScottB> Eric: this text is out of sync.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: this text is out of sync. ←
16:26:42 <ScottB> Action: Eric to propose by next week text that replaces section 4.3
ACTION: Eric to propose by next week text that replaces section 4.3 ←
16:26:42 <trackbot> Created ACTION-147 - Propose by next week text that replaces section 4.3 [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2012-02-22].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-147 - Propose by next week text that replaces section 4.3 [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2012-02-22]. ←
16:26:47 <PatH> grammars rule.
Patrick Hayes: grammars rule. ←
16:28:17 <ericP> <http://a.example/%66oo\-bar> in Turtle designates the RDF IRI http://a.example/%66oo-bar
Eric Prud'hommeaux: <http://a.example/%66oo\-bar> in Turtle designates the RDF IRI http://a.example/%66oo-bar ←
16:28:23 <ScottB> Eric: wrote an example
Eric Prud'hommeaux: wrote an example ←
16:28:57 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
16:29:09 <ScottB> … will pick one approach and propose it.
… will pick one approach and propose it. ←
16:29:21 <ScottB> Topic: Named Graphs
16:29:53 <Guus> q+
Guus Schreiber: q+ ←
16:29:53 <ScottB> David: I'd like a brief discussion on how to use the next 45 minutes.
David Wood: I'd like a brief discussion on how to use the next 45 minutes. ←
16:30:05 <davidwood> ack Guus
David Wood: ack Guus ←
16:30:40 <ScottB> Guus: Discuss the solution design page started by Sandro and go over Pat's email.
Guus Schreiber: Discuss the solution design page started by Sandro and go over Pat's email. ←
16:30:57 <ScottB> Andy: I'd like to hear what everyone's thinking.
Andy Seaborne: I'd like to hear what everyone's thinking. ←
16:31:03 <Guus> +1
Guus Schreiber: +1 ←
16:31:58 <ScottB> David: I think we have a lot of different use cases. Not clear what the field of perspectives are. Slow progress in understanding perspectives.
David Wood: I think we have a lot of different use cases. Not clear what the field of perspectives are. Slow progress in understanding perspectives. ←
16:32:16 <ScottB> … I have some hope that Pat's proposal will move us forward.
… I have some hope that Pat's proposal will move us forward. ←
16:32:52 <Guus> +1000
Guus Schreiber: +1000 ←
16:32:56 <ScottB> Pat: We shouldn't have expected this would have been fixed quickly.
Patrick Hayes: We shouldn't have expected this would have been fixed quickly. ←
16:33:12 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?
Andy Seaborne: zakim, who is on the phone? ←
16:33:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see yvesr, Peter_Patel-Schneider, gavinc, ScottB, PatH, cygri, AndyS, David_Wood, AZ, Arnaud (muted), Ivan, AlexHall, EricP, Guus, danbri, MacTed (muted)
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see yvesr, Peter_Patel-Schneider, gavinc, ScottB, PatH, cygri, AndyS, David_Wood, AZ, Arnaud (muted), Ivan, AlexHall, EricP, Guus, danbri, MacTed (muted) ←
16:33:26 <ScottB> Richard: I would be ok with the minimalist proposal.
Richard Cyganiak: I would be ok with the minimalist proposal. ←
16:33:51 <ScottB> … look at how the proposals will work with deployed practice.
… look at how the proposals will work with deployed practice. ←
16:34:39 <pfps> +1 to Richard's minimalism, but I will to see a painting before I am sure
Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 to Richard's minimalism, but I will to see a painting before I am sure ←
16:35:10 <ScottB> David: Two things inviolate, not chartered to break rdf. Does us no good to listen and change considerations.
David Wood: Two things inviolate, not chartered to break rdf. Does us no good to listen and not change considerations. ←
16:35:38 <davidwood> s/change/not change/
16:36:17 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
16:36:17 <ScottB> Pat: I agree about making minimal changes to current deployment. A radical change in the semantics can be changed to match current usage.
Patrick Hayes: I agree about making minimal changes to current deployment. A radical change in the semantics can be changed to match current usage. ←
16:36:39 <MacTed> +s/can be changed to match/can be made to match/
Ted Thibodeau: +s/can be made to match/can be made to match/ ←
16:36:43 <davidwood> ack cygri
David Wood: ack cygri ←
16:36:48 <MacTed> s/can be changed to match/can be made to match/
16:36:54 <pfps> I would argue that there has not been a change away from the current semantics!
Peter Patel-Schneider: I would argue that there has not been a change away from the current semantics! ←
16:37:24 <ScottB> Richard: I've given up on not say anything at all in the semantics about named graphs.
Richard Cyganiak: I've given up on not say anything at all in the semantics about named graphs. ←
16:38:17 <ScottB> … I still think it's important to keep in mind the actual uses when talking semantics.
… I still think it's important to keep in mind the actual users when talking semantics. ←
16:38:43 <PatH> keep in mind actual users when thinking about semantics. I agree.
Patrick Hayes: keep in mind actual users when thinking about semantics. I agree. ←
16:39:02 <ScottB> s/uses/users
16:40:31 <AZ> +1 pfps
Antoine Zimmermann: +1 pfps ←
16:40:35 <ScottB> Peter: current semantics is atemporal. It's not concerned with time. It's fine to use RDF as it is today.
Peter Patel-Schneider: current semantics is atemporal. It's not concerned with time. It's fine to use RDF as it is today. ←
16:40:45 <gavinc> +1 pfps
Gavin Carothers: +1 pfps ←
16:41:00 <ScottB> … all it says is that its a graph
… all it says is that its a graph ←
16:41:30 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
16:41:50 <ScottB> Pat: Using graphs to record data true at two different times and change the graph.
Patrick Hayes: Using graphs to record data true at two different times and change the graph. ←
16:42:25 <ScottB> Peter: Should be able to do what ever is desired and step outside the semantics.
Peter Patel-Schneider: Should be able to do what ever is desired and step outside the semantics. ←
16:42:32 <ericP> sounds like this small theory fails to meet cygri's litmus of informing implementations
Eric Prud'hommeaux: sounds like this small theory fails to meet cygri's litmus of informing implementations ←
16:42:49 <ericP> at least, not as much as we may want to inform (/standardize) them
Eric Prud'hommeaux: at least, not as much as we may want to inform (/standardize) them ←
16:43:17 <ScottB> Pat: if you record daily changes in the graph. The assertion of a the same triple with a different label breaks the semantics.
Patrick Hayes: if you record daily changes in the graph. The assertion of a the same triple with a different label breaks the semantics. ←
16:43:19 <AndyS> q+
Andy Seaborne: q+ ←
16:43:20 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me ←
16:43:21 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted ←
16:43:23 <MacTed> q+
Ted Thibodeau: q+ ←
16:43:38 <ScottB> Peter: I don't see this as a violation.
Peter Patel-Schneider: I don't see this as a violation. ←
16:43:39 <cygri> q?
Richard Cyganiak: q? ←
16:44:10 <ericP> peter: the semantics doesn't say anywhere that there should be one graph to bind them
Peter Patel-Schneider: the semantics doesn't say anywhere that there should be one graph to bind them [ Scribe Assist by Eric Prud'hommeaux ] ←
16:44:12 <davidwood> ack cygri
David Wood: ack cygri ←
16:44:20 <ScottB> David: Let's have this conversation off the call.
David Wood: Let's have this conversation off the call. ←
16:45:05 <ScottB> Richard: Pat says what you say about changes to graphs is how people use this.
Richard Cyganiak: Pat says what you say about changes to graphs is how people use this. ←
16:45:38 <ScottB> … It's his position is that semantics break when this happens.
… It's his position is that semantics break when this happens. ←
16:46:05 <ScottB> … like Peter I can't see the problem in the semantics.
… like Peter I can't see the problem in the semantics. ←
16:46:32 <ericP> q+ to say that what the current semantics cover may be a non-issue if we have a shared goal of what the semantics *should* cover
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ to say that what the current semantics cover may be a non-issue if we have a shared goal of what the semantics *should* cover ←
16:46:59 <ScottB> Pat: It depends on what you think semantics should be doing.
Patrick Hayes: It depends on what you think semantics should be doing. ←
16:47:42 <ScottB> … semantics should be about how ref graphs convey meaning.
… semantics should be about how ref graphs convey meaning. ←
16:47:43 <AndyS> q-
Andy Seaborne: q- ←
16:47:55 <ericP> +1 to "make it valid to merge two graphs"
Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 to "make it valid to merge two graphs" ←
16:48:24 <ScottB> … If graphs are sanctioned by the sematics to be temporal they can't be freely merged.
… If graphs are sanctioned by the sematics to be temporal they can't be freely merged. ←
16:48:45 <pfps> I don't see anything in RDF that says when it is acceptable to merge graphs - all that is there is what it means to merge graphs.
Peter Patel-Schneider: I don't see anything in RDF that says when it is acceptable to merge graphs - all that is there is what it means to merge graphs. ←
16:48:47 <ScottB> @Pat, please edit my scribe as necessary.
@Pat, please edit my scribe as necessary. ←
16:49:24 <ScottB> Pat: Every graph should find it's own interpretation
Patrick Hayes: Every graph should find it's own interpretation ←
16:49:45 <ScottB> Andy: Keep the URI's denoting the same thing, it's just the triples.
Andy Seaborne: Keep the URI's denoting the same thing, it's just the triples. ←
16:49:51 <Guus> Peter: as I right to say your view is: if you merge two graphs you're on your own
Peter Patel-Schneider: as I right to say your view is: if you merge two graphs you're on your own [ Scribe Assist by Guus Schreiber ] ←
16:49:52 <pfps> If you took the stance that RDF says that it is always acceptable to merge graphs, then you would be sort of requiring that the Semantic Web was globally coherent. (I would have said consistent, but that's not quite right here.)
Peter Patel-Schneider: If you took the stance that RDF says that it is always acceptable to merge graphs, then you would be sort of requiring that the Semantic Web was globally coherent. (I would have said consistent, but that's not quite right here.) ←
16:50:36 <pfps> My view is that if you combine information from different parts of the Semantic Web, then it is up to you to be sure that they are compatible.
Peter Patel-Schneider: My view is that if you combine information from different parts of the Semantic Web, then it is up to you to be sure that they are compatible. ←
16:50:37 <davidwood> pfps, isn't that a persistent misunderstanding of the Semantic Web by its detractors?
David Wood: pfps, isn't that a persistent misunderstanding of the Semantic Web by its detractors? ←
16:50:48 <AndyS> +1 to pfps
Andy Seaborne: +1 to pfps ←
16:50:50 <ScottB> Pat: if there is a true functional semantics then it means what it means. If a triple means one thing one place and one thing in another, then it needs to be reflected in the semantics.
Patrick Hayes: if there is a true functional semantics then it means what it means. If a triple means one thing one place and one thing in another, then it needs to be reflected in the semantics. ←
16:51:09 <ScottB> Andy: It's just the true falseness.
Andy Seaborne: It's just the true falseness. ←
16:51:30 <AndyS> ack me - thanks Pat
Andy Seaborne: ack me - thanks Pat ←
16:51:34 <davidwood> ack MacTed
David Wood: ack MacTed ←
16:51:37 <Guus> I can libe with Peter's view, in the light of the charter
Guus Schreiber: I can libe with Peter's view, in the light of the charter ←
16:52:04 <pfps> I think that my fundamental philosophical basis is that information in the Semantic Web is not necessarily "true", and that thus you have to be careful committing to bits of it.
Peter Patel-Schneider: I think that my fundamental philosophical basis is that information in the Semantic Web is not necessarily "true", and that thus you have to be careful committing to bits of it. ←
16:52:04 <ScottB> Ted: People may be using rdf to store information that's not rdf as defined.
Ted Thibodeau: People may be using rdf to store information that's not rdf as defined. ←
16:52:12 <davidwood> Yes, I can live with pfps's view
David Wood: Yes, I can live with pfps's view ←
16:52:49 <ScottB> … we can't treat anything as if is the same for all time.
… we can't treat anything as if is the same for all time. ←
16:53:04 <davidwood> ack ericP
David Wood: ack ericP ←
16:53:04 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to say that what the current semantics cover may be a non-issue if we have a shared goal of what the semantics *should* cover
Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to say that what the current semantics cover may be a non-issue if we have a shared goal of what the semantics *should* cover ←
16:53:35 <MacTed> q+
Ted Thibodeau: q+ ←
16:53:53 <pfps> Unfortunately, it appears that some of disagreement is about "intended" meaning, which, in my opinion, necessarily brings in the less-well-understood parts of philosophy. :-(
Peter Patel-Schneider: Unfortunately, it appears that some of disagreement is about "intended" meaning, which, in my opinion, necessarily brings in the less-well-understood parts of philosophy. :-( ←
16:54:00 <ScottB> Eric: What do we hope to accomplish, to confidently merge documents? I propose we let Pat describe his proposal.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: What do we hope to accomplish, to confidently merge documents? I propose we let Pat describe his proposal. ←
16:54:29 <ScottB> … then we decide if we want to push things that far and discover use cases from that.
… then we decide if we want to push things that far and discover use cases from that. ←
16:56:05 <ScottB> Pat: I agree with David that we don't take things on faith. (Regarding rdf statements) Thats a separate issue from what I'm trying to describe.
Patrick Hayes: I agree with David that we don't take things on faith. (Regarding rdf statements) Thats a separate issue from what I'm trying to describe. ←
16:56:22 <ScottB> … People are using rdf in a temporal way.
… People are using rdf in a temporal way. ←
16:57:00 <ScottB> … Trusting sources is just too big an issue
… Trusting sources is just too big an issue ←
16:57:37 <ScottB> … We can come up with a way that provides a semantic foundation for this application of rdf.
… We can come up with a way that provides a semantic foundation for this application of rdf. ←
16:57:38 <ericP> +1 to "useful formulation", via use cases
Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 to "useful formulation", via use cases ←
16:57:55 <davidwood> ack MacTed
David Wood: ack MacTed ←
16:57:58 <ScottB> David: Trust is one of the more important use cases.
David Wood: Trust is one of the more important use cases. ←
16:58:24 <danbri> (I liked Pat's note, but there's perhaps slightly too much emphasis on time)
Dan Brickley: (I liked Pat's note, but there's perhaps slightly too much emphasis on time) ←
16:58:25 <ScottB> Ted: Merging graphs forces rdf into authoritative true graph
Ted Thibodeau: Merging graphs forces rdf into authoritative true graph ←
16:58:41 <ScottB> Pat: Semantics doesn't deal with trust.
Patrick Hayes: Semantics doesn't deal with trust. ←
16:59:11 <davidwood> I think that trust was high on the SemWeb layer cake for a good reason. There was never a presumption in the early RDF community (to the best of my recollection) that anyone should implicitly trust all RDF statements, even when merging graphs.
David Wood: I think that trust was high on the SemWeb layer cake for a good reason. There was never a presumption in the early RDF community (to the best of my recollection) that anyone should implicitly trust all RDF statements, even when merging graphs. ←
16:59:26 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
16:59:42 <danbri> I suggest using 'foaf:age' instead of apple colour
Dan Brickley: I suggest using 'foaf:age' instead of apple colour ←
16:59:53 <ScottB> Pat: Do your three sources disagree with one another or are they describing a ripening apple.
Patrick Hayes: Do your three sources disagree with one another or are they describing a ripening apple. ←
17:00:07 <ScottB> … they describe a sequence.
… they describe a sequence. ←
17:00:18 <ScottB> … a fine semantic grain is needed.
… a fine semantic grain is needed. ←
17:00:42 <ScottB> Pat: if the truth is contextual you can put a context on it.
Patrick Hayes: if the truth is contextual you can put a context on it. ←
17:01:15 <ScottB> David: I think there is less contention now than earlier.
David Wood: I think there is less contention now than earlier. ←
17:01:16 <danbri> q+ to suggest 3 grounding scenarios: 1. 'age' of a person 2. file metadata: filesize 3. 'owner'. (better than Apple...)
Dan Brickley: q+ to suggest 3 grounding scenarios: 1. 'age' of a person 2. file metadata: filesize 3. 'owner'. (better than Apple...) ←
17:01:24 <ericP> i still think it would be useful to hear Pat discuss his proposal
Eric Prud'hommeaux: i still think it would be useful to hear Pat discuss his proposal ←
17:02:02 <davidwood> ack danbri
David Wood: ack danbri ←
17:02:44 <MacTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
17:02:48 <ScottB> Dan: I suggest three examples, person age, file size, owner
Dan Brickley: I suggest three examples, person age, file size, owner ←
17:03:24 <ScottB> Zakim, who is on IRC?
Zakim, who is on IRC? ←
17:03:29 <MacTed> to be clearer... +1 to danbri's 3 examples
Ted Thibodeau: to be clearer... +1 to danbri's 3 examples ←
17:03:29 <Guus> www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-Designs
Guus Schreiber: www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-Designs ←
17:03:41 <Zakim> danbri, you wanted to suggest 3 grounding scenarios: 1. 'age' of a person 2. file metadata: filesize 3. 'owner'. (better than Apple...)
Zakim IRC Bot: danbri, you wanted to suggest 3 grounding scenarios: 1. 'age' of a person 2. file metadata: filesize 3. 'owner'. (better than Apple...) ←
17:03:52 <ScottB> Guus: Zakim, who is on the call
Guus Schreiber: Zakim, who is on the call ←
17:03:58 <danbri> (bye 'if we can't do these 3', i mean 'we should have a plausible story about describing humans, computer files, ownable things, ... such that we can suggest sensible rdf-based data patterns that address the reality of changing properties in these 3 areas)
Dan Brickley: (bye 'if we can't do these 3', i mean 'we should have a plausible story about describing humans, computer files, ownable things, ... such that we can suggest sensible rdf-based data patterns that address the reality of changing properties in these 3 areas) ←
17:04:28 <ScottB> Zakim, who is on the call
Zakim, who is on the call ←
17:04:30 <Zakim> +Arnaud.a
Zakim IRC Bot: +Arnaud.a ←
17:04:35 <Zakim> -Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud ←
17:04:43 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
Ivan Herman: zakim, who is here? ←
17:05:26 <ScottB> Guus: The name the graph and the meaning contained somewhere. This works for the first two cases
Guus Schreiber: The name the graph and the meaning contained somewhere. This works for the first two cases ←
17:05:33 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, ScottB.
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand your question, ScottB. ←
17:06:27 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the call', ScottB
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'who is on the call', ScottB ←
17:06:32 <ScottB> … we could say this vocabulary is just convention and doesn't affect semantics.
… we could say this vocabulary is just convention and doesn't affect semantics. ←
17:06:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see yvesr, Peter_Patel-Schneider, gavinc, ScottB, PatH, cygri, AndyS, David_Wood, AZ, Ivan, AlexHall, EricP, Guus, danbri, MacTed, Arnaud.a
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see yvesr, Peter_Patel-Schneider, gavinc, ScottB, PatH, cygri, AndyS, David_Wood, AZ, Ivan, AlexHall, EricP, Guus, danbri, MacTed, Arnaud.a ←
17:07:17 <ScottB> … first question is what should we be doing and second how should we do this.
… first question is what should we be doing and second how should we do this. ←
17:07:36 <ericP> +1
Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 ←
17:07:52 <Zakim> On IRC I see AlexHall, Arnaud, Guus, pfps, Zakim, RRSAgent, AZ, cygri, PatH, AndyS, danbri, ScottB, MacTed, ivan, mischat, yvesr, SteveH, manu1, gavinc, NickH, mdmdm, davidwood,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see AlexHall, Arnaud, Guus, pfps, Zakim, RRSAgent, AZ, cygri, PatH, AndyS, danbri, ScottB, MacTed, ivan, mischat, yvesr, SteveH, manu1, gavinc, NickH, mdmdm, davidwood, ←
17:07:54 <ericP> +1 to working through specific examples in <http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-Designs>\
Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 to working through specific examples in <http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-Designs>\ ←
17:07:56 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
17:07:57 <Zakim> ... manu, trackbot, sandro, ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: ... manu, trackbot, sandro, ericP ←
17:08:45 <Zakim> -Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud ←
17:08:51 <Zakim> +Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: +Arnaud ←
17:08:54 <ScottB> Guus: Interpreted Pat's as not changing the data model but the semantics.
Guus Schreiber: Interpreted Pat's as not changing the data model but the semantics. ←
17:09:32 <ScottB> … Do we want a statement in the semantics describing what happens when we merge documents.
… Do we want a statement in the semantics describing what happens when we merge documents. ←
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