edit

RDF Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 08 February 2012

Seen
Alex Hall, Andy Seaborne, Antoine Zimmermann, Arnaud Le Hors, Dan Brickley, David Wood, Eric Prud'hommeaux, Gavin Carothers, Guus Schreiber, Ivan Herman, Nicholas Humfrey, Peter Patel-Schneider, Pierre-Antoine Champin, Sandro Hawke, Scott Bauer, Souripriya Das, Steve Harris, Ted Thibodeau, Yves Raimond, Zhe Wu
Scribe
Steve Harris, Eric Prud'hommeaux
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions

None.

Topics
15:56:36 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/02/08-rdf-wg-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/02/08-rdf-wg-irc

15:56:38 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

15:56:40 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394

15:56:40 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes

15:56:41 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:56:41 <trackbot> Date: 08 February 2012
15:57:08 <AndyS> zakim, this is 73394

Andy Seaborne: zakim, this is 73394

15:57:08 <Zakim> ok, AndyS; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, AndyS; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM

15:58:55 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip

Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip

15:58:55 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made

15:58:56 <Zakim> +Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan

15:59:36 <Zakim> +Guus

Zakim IRC Bot: +Guus

15:59:49 <yvesr> Zakim, who is on the phone?

Yves Raimond: Zakim, who is on the phone?

15:59:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P5, Ivan, Guus

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see ??P5, Ivan, Guus

15:59:54 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P5 is me

Yves Raimond: Zakim, ??P5 is me

15:59:54 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +yvesr; got it

15:59:56 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider

Zakim IRC Bot: +Peter_Patel-Schneider

16:00:34 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software

Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software

16:00:38 <Zakim> + +33.9.54.07.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +33.9.54.07.aaaa

16:00:40 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

16:00:40 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it

16:00:41 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

16:00:41 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

16:00:43 <Zakim> +??P13

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P13

16:00:53 <AZ> zakim, +33.9.54.07.aaaa is me

Antoine Zimmermann: zakim, +33.9.54.07.aaaa is me

16:00:53 <Zakim> +AZ; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ; got it

16:00:54 <NickH> Zakim, ??P13 is me

Nicholas Humfrey: Zakim, ??P13 is me

16:00:54 <Zakim> +NickH; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +NickH; got it

16:00:59 <Zakim> + +1.707.861.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.707.861.aabb

16:00:59 <AZ> zakim, mute me

Antoine Zimmermann: zakim, mute me

16:01:01 <Zakim> AZ should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: AZ should now be muted

16:01:01 <Zakim> + +1.408.996.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.408.996.aacc

16:01:02 <NickH> Zakim, mute me

Nicholas Humfrey: Zakim, mute me

16:01:03 <Zakim> NickH should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: NickH should now be muted

16:01:10 <gavinc> Zakim, aabb is me

Gavin Carothers: Zakim, aabb is me

16:01:10 <Zakim> +gavinc; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +gavinc; got it

16:01:20 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aadd

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.443.212.aadd

16:01:31 <AlexHall> zakim, aadd is me

Alex Hall: zakim, aadd is me

16:01:31 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AlexHall; got it

16:01:33 <Zakim> +Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro

16:01:45 <sandro> sandro has changed the topic to: 8 Feb -- http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.02.08

Sandro Hawke: sandro has changed the topic to: 8 Feb -- http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.02.08

16:01:47 <Guus> zakim, who is here?

Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here?

16:01:48 <Zakim> On the phone I see yvesr, Ivan, Guus, Peter_Patel-Schneider, MacTed (muted), AZ (muted), NickH (muted), gavinc, +1.408.996.aacc, AlexHall, Sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see yvesr, Ivan, Guus, Peter_Patel-Schneider, MacTed (muted), AZ (muted), NickH (muted), gavinc, +1.408.996.aacc, AlexHall, Sandro

16:01:55 <Zakim> On IRC I see AlexHall, pfps, Arnaud, gavinc, swh, RRSAgent, AZ, ScottB, Zakim, LeeF, AndyS, Guus, MacTed, mischat, ivan, danbri, SteveH, yvesr, davidwood, mdmdm, manu, trackbot,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see AlexHall, pfps, Arnaud, gavinc, swh, RRSAgent, AZ, ScottB, Zakim, LeeF, AndyS, Guus, MacTed, mischat, ivan, danbri, SteveH, yvesr, davidwood, mdmdm, manu, trackbot,

16:02:02 <Zakim> ... manu1, NickH, sandro, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: ... manu1, NickH, sandro, ericP

16:02:04 <Zakim> +??P17

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P17

16:02:09 <swh> Zakim, ??P17 is me

Steve Harris: Zakim, ??P17 is me

16:02:20 <Zakim> +swh; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +swh; got it

16:02:24 <Zakim> +Tony

Zakim IRC Bot: +Tony

16:02:42 <ScottB> Zakim, Tony is me

Scott Bauer: Zakim, Tony is me

16:02:42 <Zakim> +ScottB; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +ScottB; got it

16:03:46 <Zakim> +??P24

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P24

16:03:51 <AndyS> zakim, ??P24 is me

Andy Seaborne: zakim, ??P24 is me

16:03:51 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it

16:04:02 <Zakim> +davidwood

Zakim IRC Bot: +davidwood

16:04:15 <Zakim> + +44.117.230.aaee

Zakim IRC Bot: + +44.117.230.aaee

16:04:23 <danbri> zakim, +44.117.230.aaee is danbri

Dan Brickley: zakim, +44.117.230.aaee is danbri

16:04:25 <Zakim> +danbri; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +danbri; got it

16:05:27 <danbri> (we've got a breather...)

Dan Brickley: (we've got a breather...)

16:05:43 <swh> scribe: swh

(Scribe set to Steve Harris)

16:05:48 <swh> scribenick: swh
16:06:29 <pfps> minutes look fine

Peter Patel-Schneider: minutes look fine

16:06:35 <swh> PROPOSED: accept minuites of last week

PROPOSED: accept minuites of last week

16:06:55 <swh> RESOLVED

RESOLVED

16:06:57 <zwu2> zakim, code?

Zhe Wu: zakim, code?

16:06:57 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), zwu2

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), zwu2

16:07:07 <swh> Pending review items

Pending review items

16:07:14 <swh> close ACTION-136

close ACTION-136

16:07:14 <trackbot> Sorry... adding notes to ACTION-166 failed, please let sysreq know about it

Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry... adding notes to ACTION-166 failed, please let sysreq know about it

16:07:29 <Zakim> + +1.650.265.aaff

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.650.265.aaff

16:07:38 <zwu2> zakim, +1.650.265.aaff is me

Zhe Wu: zakim, +1.650.265.aaff is me

16:07:38 <Zakim> +zwu2; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2; got it

16:09:10 <Zakim> +[Sophia]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[Sophia]

16:10:53 <Zakim> +EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP

16:11:47 <Zakim> -AndyS

Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS

16:12:15 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

16:12:16 <danbri> (was I audible?)

Dan Brickley: (was I audible?)

16:12:21 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me

Andy Seaborne: zakim, IPCaller is me

16:12:22 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it

16:13:15 <Zakim> + +1.707.318.aagg

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.707.318.aagg

16:13:55 <swh> One more review since last week

One more review since last week

16:14:49 <swh> AlexHall: there's a lot of cleanup in XSD around defn's of lexical and value spaces, and mapping. RDF doesn't say anything about them. Just refers to them. No action needed.

Alex Hall: there's a lot of cleanup in XSD around defn's of lexical and value spaces, and mapping. RDF doesn't say anything about them. Just refers to them. No action needed.

16:14:59 <Zakim> +??P37

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P37

16:15:10 <swh> … one change that needs discussion is distinction between identity and equality

… one change that needs discussion is distinction between identity and equality

16:15:11 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?

Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is talking?

16:15:14 <Guus> zakim, who is talking?

Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is talking?

16:15:22 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (14%), AlexHall (19%), AndyS (13%)

Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (14%), AlexHall (19%), AndyS (13%)

16:15:33 <Zakim> Guus, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (9%), swh (5%), AlexHall (94%)

Zakim IRC Bot: Guus, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (9%), swh (5%), AlexHall (94%)

16:16:00 <swh> … has implications around entailment - for eg. +0 and -0 are distinct under XSD 1.1, but were equiv under 1.0

… has implications around entailment - for eg. +0 and -0 are distinct under XSD 1.1, but were equiv under 1.0

16:16:20 <swh> … NaN has implications for SPARQL, but not RDF

… NaN has implications for SPARQL, but not RDF

16:16:30 <Zakim> -AndyS

Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS

16:16:55 <swh> … we might need to write some text in the semantics document to make this clear

… we might need to write some text in the semantics document to make this clear

16:17:00 <Zakim> +??P24

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P24

16:17:04 <AndyS> zakim, P24 is me

Andy Seaborne: zakim, P24 is me

16:17:04 <Zakim> sorry, AndyS, I do not recognize a party named 'P24'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, AndyS, I do not recognize a party named 'P24'

16:17:11 <AndyS> zakim, ??P24 is me

Andy Seaborne: zakim, ??P24 is me

16:17:11 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it

16:18:04 <swh> … should probably include duration as well as the datetime etc. datatypes in the types that are good for use with RDF

… should probably include duration as well as the datetime etc. datatypes in the types that are good for use with RDF

16:18:17 <swh> Guus: we should raise that as an issue

Guus Schreiber: we should raise that as an issue

16:18:29 <swh> AlexHall: there's already an older issue

Alex Hall: there's already an older issue

16:18:44 <AlexHall> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/66

Alex Hall: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/66

16:19:46 <swh> Guus: should add that review to ISSUE-66

Guus Schreiber: should add that review to ISSUE-66

16:20:36 <swh> Turtle

Turtle

16:20:56 <swh> Guus: things came up this week, from Ivan w.r.t. multiline comments

Guus Schreiber: things came up this week, from Ivan w.r.t. multiline comments

16:21:20 <swh> gavinc: read through it, not had time to write an email

Gavin Carothers: read through it, not had time to write an email

16:21:35 <swh> … comment that we should do it like python is a problem because python doesn't

… comment that we should do it like python is a problem because python doesn't

16:21:45 <swh> … have multiline comments

… have multiline comments

16:22:00 <sandro> ?   CSS has multiline comments.

Sandro Hawke: ? CSS has multiline comments.

16:22:05 <swh> … CSS only has single line comments, I don't see it as major problem

… CSS only has single line comments, I don't see it as major problem

16:22:07 <sandro> ???

Sandro Hawke: ???

16:22:16 <Zakim> +Souri

Zakim IRC Bot: +Souri

16:22:17 <Zakim> -zwu2

Zakim IRC Bot: -zwu2

16:22:31 <swh> Danny Ayres had a comment

Danny Ayres had a comment

16:22:47 <danbri> re CSS .... /* I thought it \n did */

Dan Brickley: re CSS .... /* I thought it \n did */

16:22:47 <swh> gavinc: yes, CSS does have multiline comments

Gavin Carothers: yes, CSS does have multiline comments

16:23:13 <swh> … we could do what python does, but seems like a large change

… we could do what python does, but seems like a large change

16:23:30 <swh> Guus: ask gavinc or ericP to respond to Danny

Guus Schreiber: ask gavinc or ericP to respond to Danny

16:23:36 <swh> ericP: do we need a descision?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: do we need a descision?

16:23:45 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS1/#comments       "similar to those in the C programming language"

Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS1/#comments "similar to those in the C programming language"

16:23:52 <swh> … we want to keep alignment with SPARQL etc.

… we want to keep alignment with SPARQL etc.

16:23:54 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

16:24:22 <gavinc> sandro, Yeah, I have have no idea where my brain was

Gavin Carothers: sandro, Yeah, I have have no idea where my brain was

16:24:32 <swh> ericP: I feel like I have lack of authority

Eric Prud'hommeaux: I feel like I have lack of authority

16:24:48 <swh> Guus: might be best to raise an issue

Guus Schreiber: might be best to raise an issue

16:24:50 <sandro> Yeah, I think this needs a WG resolution.

Sandro Hawke: Yeah, I think this needs a WG resolution.

16:25:27 <AndyS> ack ivan

Andy Seaborne: ack ivan

16:25:45 <swh> ivan: was a discussion danny raised on swig, not formally raised on this group, Ivan just drew groups attention to it

Ivan Herman: was a discussion danny raised on swig, not formally raised on this group, Ivan just drew groups attention to it

16:25:58 <Zakim> + +1.603.438.aahh

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.603.438.aahh

16:26:21 <zwu2> zakim, +1.603.438.aahh is me

Zhe Wu: zakim, +1.603.438.aahh is me

16:26:21 <Zakim> +zwu2; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2; got it

16:26:22 <swh> Guus: I think it would be in the spirit to regard this as a comment

Guus Schreiber: I think it would be in the spirit to regard this as a comment

16:26:42 <swh> … ericP and gavinc, please take an action

… ericP and gavinc, please take an action

16:27:01 <swh> ACTION: ericP to repsond to multiline comments comment of Danny Ayres

ACTION: ericP to repsond to multiline comments comment of Danny Ayres

16:27:01 <trackbot> Created ACTION-142 - Repsond to multiline comments comment of Danny Ayres [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2012-02-15].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-142 - Repsond to multiline comments comment of Danny Ayres [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2012-02-15].

16:27:22 <swh> Guus: 2nd issue, raised by Alex, on local name escapes

Guus Schreiber: 2nd issue, raised by Alex, on local name escapes

16:27:48 <swh> AlexHall: one issue is a typo… [noise]

Alex Hall: one issue is a typo… [noise]

16:28:18 <swh> … double \ was shown as introducing a char escape squence

… double \ was shown as introducing a char escape squence

16:28:30 <swh> … the other I was confused by appearance of % escape encoding in local part

… the other I was confused by appearance of % escape encoding in local part

16:28:44 <swh> … want clarification that they're not treated as escapes

… want clarification that they're not treated as escapes

16:29:02 <swh> … Andy confirmed for SPARQL, but not Turtle editors

… Andy confirmed for SPARQL, but not Turtle editors

16:29:37 <AlexHall>  rdf:foo%20bar

Alex Hall: rdf:foo%20bar

16:29:38 <swh> ericP: you concern is whether I can say %68 and have it be equivalent to the unencoded version

Eric Prud'hommeaux: you concern is whether I can say %68 and have it be equivalent to the unencoded version

16:29:51 <gavinc> on comments, Python still doesn't have multi line comments, nor Perl, and Ruby has really really funky multi line comment

Gavin Carothers: on comments, Python still doesn't have multi line comments, nor Perl, and Ruby has really really funky multi line comment

16:29:59 <AndyS> f-o-o-%-2-0-b-a-r

Andy Seaborne: f-o-o-%-2-0-b-a-r

16:30:16 <swh> AlexHall: if I include a % in the localname, is it equiv. to the unescaped version

Alex Hall: if I include a % in the localname, is it equiv. to the unescaped version

16:30:23 <swh> ericP: [writing example]

Eric Prud'hommeaux: [writing example]

16:30:31 <ericP>  my:foob%61ar == my:foobar ?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: my:foob%61ar == my:foobar ?

16:31:16 <swh> ericP: I believe that the % has to stay in there - can't take %s out and have equivalence

Eric Prud'hommeaux: I believe that the % has to stay in there - can't take %s out and have equivalence

16:31:19 <sandro> I think you mean: my:foob%61r -- my:foobar

Sandro Hawke: I think you mean: my:foob%61r -- my:foobar

16:31:52 <swh> AlexHall: I'm worried that people might thing it gets deescaped

Alex Hall: I'm worried that people might thing it gets deescaped

16:32:23 <swh> ericP: ok, we need a bit of text saying you're not intended to unescape during processing

Eric Prud'hommeaux: ok, we need a bit of text saying you're not intended to unescape during processing

16:32:46 <swh> gavinc: possibly just reference the RFC doc

Gavin Carothers: possibly just reference the RFC doc

16:33:08 <Guus> q?

Guus Schreiber: q?

16:33:10 <swh> §5.3.1- simple string comparison

§5.3.1- simple string comparison

16:35:09 <ericP> ACTION: ericP to propose text to say that %nn is *NOT* unescaped while parsing Turtle

ACTION: ericP to propose text to say that %nn is *NOT* unescaped while parsing Turtle

16:35:09 <trackbot> Created ACTION-143 - Propose text to say that %nn is *NOT* unescaped while parsing Turtle [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2012-02-15].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-143 - Propose text to say that %nn is *NOT* unescaped while parsing Turtle [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2012-02-15].

16:35:58 <swh> gavinc: do want to look at publishing a new draft of Turtle soon

Gavin Carothers: do want to look at publishing a new draft of Turtle soon

16:36:03 <Zakim> - +1.707.318.aagg

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.707.318.aagg

16:36:09 <ivan> +1 to gavinc

Ivan Herman: +1 to gavinc

16:36:12 <swh> … we have Turtle in HTML, grammar has changed,

… we have Turtle in HTML, grammar has changed,

16:36:49 <swh> ericP: were there any changes we made without consensus

Eric Prud'hommeaux: were there any changes we made without consensus

16:37:01 <swh> Guus: may need formal review if WG wants

Guus Schreiber: may need formal review if WG wants

16:37:48 <swh> Topic: named graphs

1. named graphs

16:37:59 <swh> Guus: want to talk a bit about exchanging data

Guus Schreiber: want to talk a bit about exchanging data

16:38:14 <swh> … message from AndyS

… message from AndyS

16:38:32 <AndyS> I don't think we have consensus

Andy Seaborne: I don't think we have consensus

16:38:37 <swh> Guus: AndyS, do you think we reached consensus

Guus Schreiber: AndyS, do you think we reached consensus

16:39:09 <swh> AndyS: I brought it up because it was a priority before

Andy Seaborne: I brought it up because it was a priority before

16:39:29 <swh> … I think Pat and I are agreed about whether it would be best if we published the smenatics of the 4th column

… I think Pat and I are agreed about whether it would be best if we published the smenatics of the 4th column

16:39:42 <swh> … I think we'd like to see it published, but need back compat

… I think we'd like to see it published, but need back compat

16:40:26 <swh> AndyS: if you look at dbpedia they have a 4th col, but I don't know what it means, they're not complying to a published method, but it is a usecase

Andy Seaborne: if you look at dbpedia they have a 4th col, but I don't know what it means, they're not complying to a published method, but it is a usecase

16:40:53 <swh> Guus: so, you can't use the 4th column as an IRI to fetch the triples

Guus Schreiber: so, you can't use the 4th column as an IRI to fetch the triples

16:40:58 <swh> AndyS: no

Andy Seaborne: no

16:41:04 <swh> … it's got a hash on the end

… it's got a hash on the end

16:41:11 <swh> … it's quite profile, and it exists

… it's quite profile, and it exists

16:41:11 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

16:41:11 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted

16:41:21 <Guus> q?

Guus Schreiber: q?

16:42:11 <swh> Guus: what is the relationship between the 4th col and the triple?

Guus Schreiber: what is the relationship between the 4th col and the triple?

16:42:19 <swh> MacTed: I don't know, trying to get answer

Ted Thibodeau: I don't know, trying to get answer

16:43:05 <swh> ACTION: MacTed to investigate what the relationship is, and document it

ACTION: MacTed to investigate what the relationship is, and document it

16:43:05 <trackbot> Created ACTION-144 - Investigate what the relationship is, and document it [on Ted Thibodeau - due 2012-02-15].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-144 - Investigate what the relationship is, and document it [on Ted Thibodeau - due 2012-02-15].

16:43:17 <swh> AndyS: the consequence is that quads are not just an internal issues

Andy Seaborne: the consequence is that quads are not just an internal issues

16:43:24 <swh> ivan: I don't understant

Ivan Herman: I don't understant

16:43:34 <swh> AndyS: I phrased the usecase as being about TriG

Andy Seaborne: I phrased the usecase as being about TriG

16:43:53 <swh> … it's from the extraction project, not the running service

… it's from the extraction project, not the running service

16:46:08 <swh>  ACTION-144: relationship between 4th col and triple

ACTION-144: relationship between 4th col and triple

16:46:08 <trackbot> ACTION-144 Investigate what the relationship is, and document it notes added

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-144 Investigate what the relationship is, and document it notes added

16:46:26 <swh> Guus: usecase discussion between sandro and AndyS

Guus Schreiber: usecase discussion between sandro and AndyS

16:46:43 <davidwood> q+ to ask about the details of the use case

David Wood: q+ to ask about the details of the use case

16:46:53 <swh> … to illustrate how you go about identifying time-varying gboxes

… to illustrate how you go about identifying time-varying gboxes

16:47:01 <davidwood> q-

David Wood: q-

16:47:07 <swh> … AndyS, sandro, do you think your desgins are the same

… AndyS, sandro, do you think your desgins are the same

16:47:23 <swh> sandro: we're talking about the same pattern

Sandro Hawke: we're talking about the same pattern

16:47:38 <swh> Guus: that makes it worth exploring in more detail

Guus Schreiber: that makes it worth exploring in more detail

16:47:50 <swh> … in general I'l like to explore more solution designs and apply to usecase

… in general I'l like to explore more solution designs and apply to usecase

16:48:07 <Guus> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TriG-REST

Guus Schreiber: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TriG-REST

16:48:40 <swh> Guus: we started exploring sulution designs

Guus Schreiber: we started exploring sulution designs

16:48:50 <swh> … try to give a natural language explanation of what it means

… try to give a natural language explanation of what it means

16:48:58 <swh> … so non RDF geeks can understand

… so non RDF geeks can understand

16:49:04 <swh> … started writing down examples

… started writing down examples

16:49:17 <swh> … my question to WG is, is this kind of approach useful?

… my question to WG is, is this kind of approach useful?

16:49:17 <Zakim> -AZ

Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ

16:49:33 <AndyS> Useful to explore this pattern

Andy Seaborne: Useful to explore this pattern

16:49:58 <swh> … in the 3rd usecase sandro has a statement about static graph container, those appear in AndyS's solution too

… in the 3rd usecase sandro has a statement about static graph container, those appear in AndyS's solution too

16:50:07 <swh> … do we want to define that, and if so, in what namespace

… do we want to define that, and if so, in what namespace

16:50:12 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

16:50:17 <swh> no moee namespaces please

no moee namespaces please

16:50:23 <sandro> +1

Sandro Hawke: +1

16:50:26 <swh> Guus: is it useful to look at these designs?

Guus Schreiber: is it useful to look at these designs?

16:50:36 <AndyS> q?

Andy Seaborne: q?

16:50:37 <sandro> +1 on looking at solutions in more detail

Sandro Hawke: +1 on looking at solutions in more detail

16:50:41 <swh> +1

+1

16:50:59 <pchampin> +1

Pierre-Antoine Champin: +1

16:51:01 <Zakim> +AZ

Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ

16:51:02 <swh> ivan: we certainly have to move on and look at possibilities

Ivan Herman: we certainly have to move on and look at possibilities

16:51:04 <AZ> zakim, mute me

Antoine Zimmermann: zakim, mute me

16:51:04 <Zakim> AZ should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: AZ should now be muted

16:51:31 <swh> … what I don't fully understand is that the usecase means the semantics of GET, but does it mean that you would have other semantics?

… what I don't fully understand is that the usecase means the semantics of GET, but does it mean that you would have other semantics?

16:51:49 <swh> Guus: how do we do the page structuring? I thought one page per solution

Guus Schreiber: how do we do the page structuring? I thought one page per solution

16:52:07 <swh> … tried to come up with nat lang description of TriG RESR

… tried to come up with nat lang description of TriG REST

16:52:14 <swh> s/RESR/REST/
16:52:30 <MacTed> AndyS - do you have a sample fourth-column value from those DBpedia dumps?

Ted Thibodeau: AndyS - do you have a sample fourth-column value from those DBpedia dumps?

16:52:33 <swh> sandro: at a tutorial level the text description is ok

Sandro Hawke: at a tutorial level the text description is ok

16:52:45 <swh> ivan: I would prefer to see all on one page

Ivan Herman: I would prefer to see all on one page

16:52:50 <swh> Guus: no problem

Guus Schreiber: no problem

16:52:54 <MacTed> (even better, a full row or two from any of those N-quad files)

Ted Thibodeau: (even better, a full row or two from any of those N-quad files)

16:52:55 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-Designs

Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-Designs

16:53:02 <AndyS> MacTed - the load page has samples IIRC

Andy Seaborne: MacTed - the load page has samples IIRC

16:53:12 <swh> sandro: I was doing the same thing

Sandro Hawke: I was doing the same thing

16:53:28 <AndyS> ... not sure if they are representative enough.

Andy Seaborne: ... not sure if they are representative enough.

16:54:00 <swh> sandro: my impression right now is that most of the group is not following this closely enough to make descisions about it

Sandro Hawke: my impression right now is that most of the group is not following this closely enough to make descisions about it

16:54:26 <swh> Guus: I prefer to see people owning solutions

Guus Schreiber: I prefer to see people owning solutions

16:54:47 <swh> sandro: don't want to get too emotionally involved

Sandro Hawke: don't want to get too emotionally involved

16:55:07 <ericP> scribenick: ericP

(Scribe set to Eric Prud'hommeaux)

16:55:08 <Zakim> -swh

Zakim IRC Bot: -swh

16:55:28 <ericP> Guus: happy to write more examples for this solution

Guus Schreiber: happy to write more examples for this solution

16:56:13 <ericP> … i'll try to stay impartial in my defense of this solution

… i'll try to stay impartial in my defense of this solution

16:56:36 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-Designs

Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-Designs

16:56:38 <ericP> … and there's the equality use case?

… and there's the equality use case?

16:57:15 <ericP> sandro: in TF-Graphs-Designs, the first is "trig state" (earlier called "trig rest") (subject of guus's page)

Sandro Hawke: in TF-Graphs-Designs, the first is "trig state" (earlier called "trig rest") (subject of guus's page)

16:57:26 <ericP> … second is "trig equality"

… second is "trig equality"

16:57:47 <ericP> Guus: where the lable is a placeholder for the set of triples, instead of pointing to it

Guus Schreiber: where the lable is a placeholder for the set of triples, instead of pointing to it

16:59:05 <ericP> sandro: 3rd is the n3 style of explicitly naming the relation (scroll down to "graph object")

Sandro Hawke: 3rd is the n3 style of explicitly naming the relation (scroll down to "graph object")

17:00:48 <ericP> ... "Graph Objects" is triples, where nodes can be graphs

... "Graph Objects" is triples, where nodes can be graphs

17:01:09 <zwu2> q+

Zhe Wu: q+

17:01:19 <ivan> q-

Ivan Herman: q-

17:01:22 <ericP> Guus: could be seen at quints, e.g.:

Guus Schreiber: could be seen at quints, e.g.:

17:01:23 <danbri> (regarding 'bigger than RDF', I always think of RDF as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatland ... and quads as adding an extra dimension...)

Dan Brickley: (regarding 'bigger than RDF', I always think of RDF as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatland ... and quads as adding an extra dimension...)

17:01:44 <ericP> … eg:s1 eg:p1 eg:o1. eg:g1 rdf:graphState

… eg:s1 eg:p1 eg:o1. eg:g1 rdf:graphState

17:01:52 <yvesr> it is possible to store such things in a quad store (that's how my SWI-Prolog N3 implementation works)

Yves Raimond: it is possible to store such things in a quad store (that's how my SWI-Prolog N3 implementation works)

17:02:09 <ericP> sandro: steve argued that there's a problematic computational overhead to this approach

Sandro Hawke: steve argued that there's a problematic computational overhead to this approach

17:03:06 <ericP> … distinction between Graph Objects and Graph Datatypes is that former has graphs in the object position and latter has turtle literals

… distinction between Graph Objects and Graph Datatypes is that former has graphs in the object position and latter has turtle literals

17:04:41 <sandro> the type of the thing identified by the label.

Sandro Hawke: the type of the thing identified by the label.

17:04:41 <pchampin> re 5., I would be more comfortable with something more keywordish, like "@graphLabelRelation rdf:graphState"

Pierre-Antoine Champin: re 5., I would be more comfortable with something more keywordish, like "@graphLabelRelation rdf:graphState"

17:04:47 <ericP> AndyS: [re: Relation Flag"] i was imagining the the modifier applied to each triple, e.g. eg:s eg:p eg:o. eg:g

Andy Seaborne: [re: Relation Flag"] i was imagining the the modifier applied to each triple, e.g. eg:s eg:p eg:o. eg:g

17:06:21 <ericP> Guus: in AndyS's Oct mail, he used types like StaticGraphContainer

Guus Schreiber: in AndyS's Oct mail, he used types like StaticGraphContainer

17:06:38 <ericP> … these are close to Graph Objects

… these are close to Graph Objects

17:07:11 <ericP> sandro: with trig state, there are precise semantics which i think are distinguishable [from andy's mail]

Sandro Hawke: with trig state, there are precise semantics which i think are distinguishable [from andy's mail]

17:07:50 <AndyS> q?

Andy Seaborne: q?

17:07:53 <Guus> q?

Guus Schreiber: q?

17:07:55 <ericP> … calling Andy's proposal "typed @@1"

… calling Andy's proposal "typed @@1"

17:08:28 <ericP> zwu: with graphs as objects, how could you enforce equality?

Zhe Wu: with graphs as objects, how could you enforce equality?

17:08:57 <ericP> ericP: i.e. have the same extension?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: i.e. have the same extension?

17:09:12 <ericP> zwu: right, owl:sameAs has powerful semantics

Zhe Wu: right, owl:sameAs has powerful semantics

17:09:40 <ericP> sandro: hasn't come up in the use cases, but you could say

Sandro Hawke: hasn't come up in the use cases, but you could say

17:10:09 <AndyS> """The built-in OWL property owl:sameAs links an individual to an individual."""

Andy Seaborne: """The built-in OWL property owl:sameAs links an individual to an individual."""

17:10:12 <ericP> … ^h^h^h utter some inconsistency which was computationally hard to catch

… ^h^h^h utter some inconsistency which was computationally hard to catch

17:10:28 <Souri> +1 to calling it something else

Souripriya Das: +1 to calling it something else

17:10:53 <sandro> ivan: later, we can say sameas is sameas sameas

Ivan Herman: later, we can say sameas is sameas sameas [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

17:10:57 <pchampin> sameGraph ?

Pierre-Antoine Champin: sameGraph ?

17:10:58 <ericP> … so if we use owl:sameAs, are we bringing in baggage? happy to use something else

… so if we use owl:sameAs, are we bringing in baggage? happy to use something else

17:11:06 <ericP> … sameGraphAs

… sameGraphAs

17:11:23 <MacTed> -1000 sameGraphAs

Ted Thibodeau: -1000 sameGraphAs

17:11:30 <ericP> zwu: triple order and bnodes make it hard

Zhe Wu: triple order and bnodes make it hard

17:11:32 <MacTed> sameGbox maybe

Ted Thibodeau: sameGbox maybe

17:11:32 <AndyS> It is expensive to test for equality.  See JJC paper.

Andy Seaborne: It is expensive to test for equality. See JJC paper.

17:12:00 <MacTed> (implying also sameGsnap, sameGtext)

Ted Thibodeau: (implying also sameGsnap, sameGtext)

17:12:06 <pchampin> @MacTed no, as I get it, the idea is to identify the g-snap here, to the g-box

Pierre-Antoine Champin: @MacTed no, as I get it, the idea is to identify the g-snap here, to the g-box

17:12:44 <gavinc> Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graph_isomorphism

Gavin Carothers: Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graph_isomorphism

17:12:49 <sandro> MacTed, how about rdf:isGSnap ?

Sandro Hawke: MacTed, how about rdf:isGSnap ?

17:13:01 <ericP> sandro: i think we can factor out that computation because it's not necessary for the use cases

Sandro Hawke: i think we can factor out that computation because it's not necessary for the use cases

17:14:29 <ericP> [general exceptance of the term "GSnap"]

[general acceptance of the term "GSnap"]

17:14:55 <ericP> Guus: would like to execute the provenance scenario with these different designs

Guus Schreiber: would like to execute the provenance scenario with these different designs

17:15:12 <ericP> Arnaud: have we defined GSnap et al?

Arnaud Le Hors: have we defined GSnap et al?

17:15:28 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-Designs#Graph_Objects edited to use rdf:isGSnap

Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-Designs#Graph_Objects edited to use rdf:isGSnap

17:15:32 <ericP> sandro: plan is that these terms won't make it into the final specs

Sandro Hawke: plan is that these terms won't make it into the final specs

17:15:59 <ericP> ACTION: Guus to merge his page with Sandro's

ACTION: Guus to merge his page with Sandro's

17:15:59 <trackbot> Created ACTION-145 - Merge his page with Sandro's [on Guus Schreiber - due 2012-02-15].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-145 - Merge his page with Sandro's [on Guus Schreiber - due 2012-02-15].

17:17:03 <ericP> ACTION: Guus to write down the provenance scenario example, as well as those in AndyS's and Steve's email, and the one from DBPedia

ACTION: Guus to write down the provenance scenario example, as well as those in AndyS's and Steve's email, and the one from DBPedia

17:17:03 <trackbot> Created ACTION-146 - Write down the provenance scenario example, as well as those in AndyS's and Steve's email, and the one from DBPedia [on Guus Schreiber - due 2012-02-15].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-146 - Write down the provenance scenario example, as well as those in AndyS's and Steve's email, and the one from DBPedia [on Guus Schreiber - due 2012-02-15].

17:17:19 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider

Zakim IRC Bot: -Peter_Patel-Schneider

17:17:55 <ericP> Guus: let's start with the three in sandro's message, plus the one in Andy's message and the keeping-inference-separate examples

Guus Schreiber: let's start with the three in sandro's message, plus the one in Andy's message and the keeping-inference-separate examples

17:18:19 <AZ> bye

Antoine Zimmermann: bye

17:18:22 <Zakim> -AZ

Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ

17:18:23 <zwu2> bye

Zhe Wu: bye

17:18:27 <danbri> bye!

Dan Brickley: bye!

17:18:27 <Zakim> -zwu2

Zakim IRC Bot: -zwu2

17:18:29 <Zakim> -Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan

17:18:37 <MacTed> s/general exceptance/general acceptance/
17:18:38 <Zakim> -Souri

Zakim IRC Bot: -Souri

17:18:41 <Zakim> -yvesr

Zakim IRC Bot: -yvesr

17:18:43 <Zakim> -NickH

Zakim IRC Bot: -NickH

17:18:47 <Zakim> -AlexHall

Zakim IRC Bot: -AlexHall

17:18:48 <Zakim> -gavinc

Zakim IRC Bot: -gavinc

17:18:52 <Zakim> -ScottB

Zakim IRC Bot: -ScottB

17:19:03 <danbri> http://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe/ ?

Dan Brickley: http://www.w3.org/2009/CommonScribe/ ?



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