14:52:51 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/08/31-rdf-wg-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/08/31-rdf-wg-irc ←
14:53:34 <davidwood> Chair: David Wood
14:53:38 <davidwood> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.08.31
14:53:51 <davidwood> Scribe: Mischa Tuffield
(Scribe set to Mischa Tuffield)
14:54:17 <davidwood> ScribeNick: mischat
14:56:34 <mischat_> i might need help with the tidy up tasks at the end of the call
i might need help with the tidy up tasks at the end of the call ←
14:57:31 <davidwood> mischat: No problem.
Mischa Tuffield: No problem. [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ] ←
14:58:05 <sandro> zakim, this is rdf
Sandro Hawke: zakim, this is rdf ←
14:58:05 <Zakim> ok, sandro; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, sandro; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM ←
14:58:05 <AndyS> zakim, this is RDF-WG
Andy Seaborne: zakim, this is RDF-WG ←
14:58:07 <Zakim> sorry, AndyS, I do not see a conference named 'RDF-WG' in progress or scheduled at this time
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, AndyS, I do not see a conference named 'RDF-WG' in progress or scheduled at this time ←
14:58:09 <Zakim> +??P8
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P8 ←
14:58:20 <Zakim> -??P7
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P7 ←
14:58:32 <mischat> zakim, ??P8 is me
zakim, ??P8 is me ←
14:58:32 <Zakim> +mischat; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +mischat; got it ←
14:58:38 <mischat> zakim, mute me
zakim, mute me ←
14:58:38 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: mischat should now be muted ←
14:58:54 <Zakim> +??P12
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P12 ←
14:58:56 <mischat> zakim, unmute me
zakim, unmute me ←
14:58:56 <Zakim> mischat should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: mischat should no longer be muted ←
14:58:59 <AndyS> zakim, ??P12 is me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, ??P12 is me ←
14:58:59 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it ←
14:59:16 <mischat> one last thing to check before this starts
one last thing to check before this starts ←
14:59:32 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip ←
14:59:32 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made ←
14:59:33 <Zakim> +Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan ←
14:59:39 <mischat> when i do "foo: say hello" that means "person food. said hello"
when i do "foo: say hello" that means "person food. said hello" ←
14:59:47 <sandro> yes.
Sandro Hawke: yes. ←
14:59:50 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
David Wood: Zakim, who is here? ←
14:59:54 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.540.898.aaaa, Sandro, mischat, AndyS, Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see +1.540.898.aaaa, Sandro, mischat, AndyS, Ivan ←
15:00:05 <Zakim> On IRC I see AlexHall, mischat, mbrunati, Zakim, RRSAgent, danbri, MacTed, cygri, ivan, tomayac, AndyS, sandro, trackbot, davidwood, manu1, yvesr, ericP, manu, NickH
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see AlexHall, mischat, mbrunati, Zakim, RRSAgent, danbri, MacTed, cygri, ivan, tomayac, AndyS, sandro, trackbot, davidwood, manu1, yvesr, ericP, manu, NickH ←
15:00:15 <manu1> zakim, code?
Manu Sporny: zakim, code? ←
15:00:18 <davidwood> Zakim, aaaa is me
David Wood: Zakim, aaaa is me ←
15:00:19 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.443.212.aabb ←
15:00:31 <AlexHall> zakim, aabb is me
Alex Hall: zakim, aabb is me ←
15:00:31 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software ←
15:00:35 <mischat> manu1 the code 73394
manu1 the code 73394 ←
15:00:38 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me ←
15:00:40 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), manu1
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), manu1 ←
15:00:40 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
15:00:45 <Zakim> +davidwood; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +davidwood; got it ←
15:00:49 <mbrunati> zakim, +1.443.212.aabb is me
Matteo Brunati: zakim, +1.443.212.aabb is me ←
15:00:51 <Zakim> +??P18
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P18 ←
15:00:58 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AlexHall; got it ←
15:01:05 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it ←
15:01:11 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
15:01:20 <Zakim> sorry, mbrunati, I do not recognize a party named '+1.443.212.aabb'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, mbrunati, I do not recognize a party named '+1.443.212.aabb' ←
15:01:24 <MacTed> MacTed has changed the topic to: RDF-WG -- http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/ -- 2011-08-31 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.08.31 (MacTed)
Ted Thibodeau: MacTed has changed the topic to: RDF-WG -- http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/ -- 2011-08-31 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.08.31 (MacTed) ←
15:01:37 <mbrunati> Zakim, +1.443.212.aabb is me
Matteo Brunati: Zakim, +1.443.212.aabb is me ←
15:01:56 <Zakim> sorry, mbrunati, I do not recognize a party named '+1.443.212.aabb'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, mbrunati, I do not recognize a party named '+1.443.212.aabb' ←
15:01:56 <zwu2> zakim, code?
15:01:57 <MacTed> Zakim, aabb is mbrunati
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, aabb is mbrunati ←
15:01:59 <mischat> mbrunati, try "zakim, aabb is me"
mbrunati, try "zakim, aabb is me" ←
15:02:08 <mbrunati> thanks misha
Matteo Brunati: thanks misha ←
15:02:10 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), zwu2 ←
15:02:14 <Zakim> sorry, MacTed, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, MacTed, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb' ←
15:02:26 <Zakim> + +1.404.978.aacc
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.404.978.aacc ←
15:02:35 <MacTed> oh! because aabb is already AlexHall
Ted Thibodeau: oh! because aabb is already AlexHall ←
15:02:37 <tomayac> zakim, aacc is me
Thomas Steiner: zakim, aacc is me ←
15:02:42 <Zakim> +tomayac; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +tomayac; got it ←
15:02:49 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's here? ←
15:02:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see davidwood, Sandro, mischat, AndyS, Ivan, AlexHall, MacTed (muted), ??P18, tomayac
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see davidwood, Sandro, mischat, AndyS, Ivan, AlexHall, MacTed (muted), ??P18, tomayac ←
15:02:54 <Zakim> On IRC I see zwu2, Scott_Bauer, AlexHall, mischat, mbrunati, Zakim, RRSAgent, danbri, MacTed, cygri, ivan, tomayac, AndyS, sandro, trackbot, davidwood, manu1, yvesr, ericP, manu,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see zwu2, Scott_Bauer, AlexHall, mischat, mbrunati, Zakim, RRSAgent, danbri, MacTed, cygri, ivan, tomayac, AndyS, sandro, trackbot, davidwood, manu1, yvesr, ericP, manu, ←
15:02:57 <Zakim> ... NickH
Zakim IRC Bot: ... NickH ←
15:03:01 <Zakim> +Souri
Zakim IRC Bot: +Souri ←
15:03:05 <Zakim> + +1.650.265.aadd
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.650.265.aadd ←
15:03:19 <zwu2> zakim, +1.650.265.aadd is me
Zhe Wu: zakim, +1.650.265.aadd is me ←
15:03:19 <Zakim> +zwu2; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2; got it ←
15:03:28 <davidwood> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 24 Aug telecon:
David Wood: PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 24 Aug telecon: ←
15:03:28 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-08-24
David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-08-24 ←
15:03:28 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
15:03:28 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: zwu2 should now be muted ←
15:03:39 <Zakim> +??P35
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P35 ←
15:03:44 <mischat> davidwood: accepted the minutes from last week, any issues? any objections?
David Wood: accepted the minutes from last week, any issues? any objections? ←
15:03:45 <manu1> zakim, I am ??P35
Manu Sporny: zakim, I am ??P35 ←
15:03:45 <Zakim> +manu1; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +manu1; got it ←
15:04:01 <davidwood> Action item review:
David Wood: Action item review: ←
15:04:01 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - item
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - item ←
15:04:01 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview
David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview ←
15:04:01 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open
David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open ←
15:04:03 <Zakim> +Tony
Zakim IRC Bot: +Tony ←
15:04:06 <mischat> davidwood: resolve to accept the minutes now on to the action items
David Wood: resolve to accept the minutes now on to the action items ←
15:04:18 <Scott_Bauer> Zakim, Tony is me
Scott Bauer: Zakim, Tony is me ←
15:04:18 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Scott_Bauer; got it ←
15:04:27 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-office
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, please dial ericP-office ←
15:04:27 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ericP; the call is being made ←
15:04:29 <Zakim> +EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP ←
15:04:36 <sandro> action-65?
15:04:36 <trackbot> ACTION-65 -- Sandro Hawke to and Pat to consider what words to add to minimal proposal. -- due 2011-06-29 -- PENDINGREVIEW
Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-65 -- Sandro Hawke to and Pat to consider what words to add to minimal proposal. -- due 2011-06-29 -- PENDINGREVIEW ←
15:04:36 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/65
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/65 ←
15:04:44 <mischat> davidwood: we are looking at pending action items, Pat and Sandro to look at "looking for a minimal proposal"
David Wood: we are looking at pending action items, Pat and Sandro to look at "looking for a minimal proposal" ←
15:05:01 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/71
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/71 ←
15:05:16 <mischat> who is speaking ?
who is speaking ? ←
15:05:21 <Zakim> + +1.707.861.aaee
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.707.861.aaee ←
15:05:29 <gavinc> Zakim, aaee is me
Gavin Carothers: Zakim, aaee is me ←
15:05:29 <Zakim> +gavinc; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +gavinc; got it ←
15:05:43 <mischat> davidwood: the action change from 65 -> 71, was about contacting the provenance WG
David Wood: the action change from 65 -> 71, was about contacting the provenance WG ←
15:06:08 <mischat> davidwood: to see what proposal in the g* world would suit their needs.
David Wood: to see what proposal in the g* world would suit their needs. ←
15:06:28 <mischat> it seems that Guus has made contact to the provenance WG, we are now waiting for them to respond
it seems that Guus has made contact to the provenance WG, we are now waiting for them to respond ←
15:06:49 <mischat> davidwood: Guus seemed to mark the action item as pending review, dave proposing that we close it
David Wood: Guus seemed to mark the action item as pending review, dave proposing that we close it ←
15:07:25 <mischat> davidwood: think that this approach of contacting via an action item, as apposed to opening an issue which would have required action from the provenance WG, was the best way forward.
David Wood: think that this approach of contacting via an action item, as apposed to opening an issue which would have required action from the provenance WG, was the best way forward. ←
15:07:49 <mischat> davidwood: Guus seemed to have also closed issue 66, relating to 65
David Wood: Guus seemed to have also closed ISSUE-66, relating to 65 ←
15:07:52 <PatH> Sorry Im late
Patrick Hayes: Sorry Im late ←
15:08:06 <AndyS> It's done in email.
Andy Seaborne: It's done in email. ←
15:08:08 <mischat> davidwood, perhaps "update" protocol
davidwood, perhaps "update" protocol ←
15:08:10 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/68
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/68 ←
15:08:45 <AndyS> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Aug/0231.html
Andy Seaborne: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Aug/0231.html ←
15:08:52 <mischat> ivan: pierre-A sent regrets, and has provided a review of the sparql 1.1 graphstore protocol
Ivan Herman: pierre-A sent regrets, and has provided a review of the sparql 1.1 graphstore protocol ←
15:09:01 <AlexHall> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Aug/0228.html
Alex Hall: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Aug/0228.html ←
15:09:03 <mischat> davidwood: happy to call the action as done
David Wood: happy to call the action as done ←
15:09:19 <mischat> pierre-A, provided a review as per action item 68
pierre-A, provided a review as per action item 68 ←
15:09:28 <mischat> davidwood: 70 and 71 seem to be duplicates
David Wood: 70 and 71 seem to be duplicates ←
15:09:53 <mischat> ivan: left the work to be done by davidwood
Ivan Herman: left the work to be done by davidwood ←
15:09:57 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/75
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/75 ←
15:09:58 <Zakim> + +1.617.553.aaff
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.617.553.aaff ←
15:10:06 <LeeF> zakim, aaff is me
Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, aaff is me ←
15:10:06 <Zakim> +LeeF; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +LeeF; got it ←
15:10:10 <mischat> davidwood: Guss seems to have done action 75
David Wood: Guss seems to have done ACTION-75 ←
15:10:13 <Zakim> +PatH
Zakim IRC Bot: +PatH ←
15:10:29 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/76
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/76 ←
15:10:46 <mischat> PatH: has done action 76
Patrick Hayes: has done ACTION-76 ←
15:11:16 <mischat> danbri: ?
danbri, ? ←
15:11:34 <mischat> s/danbri:/danbri,/
15:11:57 <mischat> davidwood: is performing the .well-known registration action as we speak
David Wood: is performing the .well-known registration action as we speak ←
15:13:18 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/68
David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/68 ←
15:13:37 <mischat> davidwood: as per action 68, it looks like PatH is going to follow the action item
David Wood: as per ACTION-68, it looks like PatH is going to follow the action item ←
15:13:52 <mischat> davidwood: action item 68 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/68 points to an email which Pat will look at
David Wood: action item 68 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/68 points to an email which Pat will look at ←
15:14:15 <mischat> gavinc: has finished his action item relating to the turtle spec
Gavin Carothers: has finished his action item relating to the turtle spec ←
15:14:21 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/78
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/78 ←
15:14:37 <mischat> gavinc: has completed action 78
Gavin Carothers: has completed ACTION-78 ←
15:15:12 <mischat> the above action item is about appending the N-triples content as an appendix to the turtle draft
the above action item is about appending the N-triples content as an appendix to the turtle draft ←
15:15:38 <mischat> davidwood: RDF concepts was published as a FPWD
David Wood: RDF concepts was published as a FPWD ←
15:15:39 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/blog/SW/2011/08/30/rdf1-1-concepts-published/
http://www.w3.org/blog/SW/2011/08/30/rdf1-1-concepts-published/ ←
15:15:49 <mischat> davidwood: the above url should be added to our documents page ^^
David Wood: the above url should be added to our documents page ^^ ←
15:15:57 <davidwood> JSON work progress & planning
David Wood: JSON work progress & planning ←
15:16:13 <davidwood> Revisit ISSUE 2: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/2
David Wood: Revisit ISSUE-2: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/2 ←
15:16:14 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/2
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/2 ←
15:16:29 <PatH> zakim, mute me
Patrick Hayes: zakim, mute me ←
15:16:29 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should now be muted ←
15:16:42 <mischat> davidwood: following on from last week, issue 2 is pending, in terms of what what this WG should do re: JSON and RDF
David Wood: following on from last week, ISSUE-2 is pending, in terms of what what this WG should do re: JSON and RDF ←
15:16:46 <Zakim> +??P45
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P45 ←
15:16:54 <NickH> Zakim, ??P45 is me
Nicholas Humfrey: Zakim, ??P45 is me ←
15:16:54 <Zakim> +NickH; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +NickH; got it ←
15:17:07 <mischat> so, the current position as of the f2f is a note for JSON-LD, and rec for Talis JSON
so, the current position as of the f2f is a note for JSON-LD, and rec for Talis JSON ←
15:17:24 <mischat> davidwood: is proposing that we don't make a rec of the Talis JSON work
David Wood: is proposing that we don't make a rec of the Talis JSON work ←
15:17:28 <LeeF> Happy with that!
Lee Feigenbaum: Happy with that! ←
15:17:35 <mischat> and to wait on the incubation of JSON-LD
and to wait on the incubation of JSON-LD ←
15:18:08 <mischat> ivan: tried to summarise last weeks discussion. Feeling that that this group might not be best placed to produce a JSON document
Ivan Herman: tried to summarise last weeks discussion. Feeling that that this group might not be best placed to produce a JSON document ←
15:18:10 <davidwood> Proposal: Change ISSUE-2 resolution to (a) Not move RDF/JSON to REC.
PROPOSED: Change ISSUE-2 resolution to (a) Not move RDF/JSON to REC. ←
15:18:21 <mischat> ivan: due to not having active JSON folks
Ivan Herman: due to not having active JSON folks ←
15:18:39 <NickH> ivan, not sure that we all agreed about lack of JSON experience
Nicholas Humfrey: ivan, not sure that we all agreed about lack of JSON experience ←
15:18:57 <mischat> ivan: post meeting, there was discussion on the mailing, the conclusion being that JSON-LD might suffice all of the use-case we had for JSON RDF stuff
Ivan Herman: post meeting, there was discussion on the mailing, the conclusion being that JSON-LD might suffice all of the use-case we had for JSON RDF stuff ←
15:19:37 <mischat> ivan: 1. this group won't produce to a JSON RDF spec, and we would try to spin off the JSON-LD work into a community group
Ivan Herman: 1. this group won't produce to a JSON RDF spec, and we would try to spin off the JSON-LD work into a community group ←
15:20:01 <mischat> ivan: the community group might attract the right people
Ivan Herman: the community group might attract the right people ←
15:20:46 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
15:20:52 <manu1> q+
Manu Sporny: q+ ←
15:20:54 <davidwood> ack Ivan
David Wood: ack Ivan ←
15:20:57 <mischat> davidwood: saw lots of people reaction re: JSON from within the WG. Why don't we ask people from the JSON community group to join our WG
David Wood: saw lots of people reaction re: JSON from within the WG. Why don't we ask people from the JSON community group to join our WG ←
15:20:57 <gavinc> +q to avoid this question for now
Gavin Carothers: +q to avoid this question for now ←
15:21:09 <mischat> davidwood: so that we can push this JSON work forward
David Wood: so that we can push this JSON work forward ←
15:21:51 <mischat> ivan: looking at the core JS/JSON community, they might have difficult to communicate with the diehard RDF group
Ivan Herman: looking at the core JS/JSON community, they might have difficult to communicate with the diehard RDF group ←
15:22:08 <PatH> fwiw, i feel that this group should have a final sign-off, since there may be issues of formal compliance which the json folk simply dont care about, but we do.
Patrick Hayes: fwiw, i feel that this group should have a final sign-off, since there may be issues of formal compliance which the json folk simply dont care about, but we do. ←
15:22:16 <mischat> ivan: wonders if they will find it hard to communicate with the RDF folks
Ivan Herman: wonders if they will find it hard to communicate with the RDF folks ←
15:22:37 <davidwood> ack manu1
David Wood: ack manu1 ←
15:22:44 <mischat> ivan: doesn't think from a social point of view any liaison would be ideal
Ivan Herman: doesn't think from a social point of view any liaison would be ideal ←
15:23:15 <mischat> manu1: there seems to be a strange barrier between the two groups. This is due to camps when people think about RDF and JSON
Manu Sporny: there seems to be a strange barrier between the two groups. This is due to camps when people think about RDF and JSON ←
15:23:38 <mischat> manu1: 1. people which have triplestore and the SW stack, and their needs re: transporting RDF via JSON
Manu Sporny: 1. people which have triplestore and the SW stack, and their needs re: transporting RDF via JSON ←
15:24:33 <mischat> manu1: 2. the other group. People just getting into the linked data world. They can't afford the engineering effort to get stuck into the full SW tech stack. These folks don't want to use RDF, they want to use JSON
Manu Sporny: 2. the other group. People just getting into the linked data world. They can't afford the engineering effort to get stuck into the full SW tech stack. These folks don't want to use RDF, they want to use JSON ←
15:25:06 <mischat> manu1: they may find it neat that RDF folks might be able to use their JSON
Manu Sporny: they may find it neat that RDF folks might be able to use their JSON ←
15:25:25 <mischat> manu1: manu's company falls into the 2nd community
Manu Sporny: manu's company falls into the 2nd community ←
15:26:16 <mischat> manu1: believes that group 2, and not interested in helping people which have requirements such as "we have to make it work with our triplestore", or "we need to make our JSON talk to our RDF data"
Manu Sporny: believes that group 2, and not interested in helping people which have requirements such as "we have to make it work with our triplestore", or "we need to make our JSON talk to our RDF data" ←
15:26:21 <LeeF> manu1++
Lee Feigenbaum: manu1++ ←
15:26:50 <mischat> manu1: believes that we need to incubate the work, and that we should move people from the RDF WG to the community group
Manu Sporny: believes that we need to incubate the work, and that we should move people from the RDF WG to the community group ←
15:27:02 <manu1> q+
Manu Sporny: q+ ←
15:27:03 <PatH> listening to this social discussion makes me wonder if it might just not be the right time to standardize this stuff.
Patrick Hayes: listening to this social discussion makes me wonder if it might just not be the right time to standardize this stuff. ←
15:27:16 <davidwood> ack gavinc
David Wood: ack gavinc ←
15:27:16 <Zakim> gavinc, you wanted to avoid this question for now
Zakim IRC Bot: gavinc, you wanted to avoid this question for now ←
15:27:30 <davidwood> ack manu1
David Wood: ack manu1 ←
15:27:37 <mischat> ivan: thinks that the community should push the work forward, and that when the JSON CG are ready they should present their work to the WG
Ivan Herman: thinks that the community should push the work forward, and that when the JSON CG are ready they should present their work to the WG ←
15:27:59 <mischat> manu1: doesn't think that this WG is the right place to push the work forward
Manu Sporny: doesn't think that this WG is the right place to push the work forward ←
15:28:23 <PatH> I have exactly the dual concertn.
Patrick Hayes: I have exactly the dual concertn. ←
15:28:29 <PatH> concern.
Patrick Hayes: concern. ←
15:28:39 <mischat> manu1: is worried about that when the JSON CG thinks they are finished, they are going to have changes imposed by the RDF WG
Manu Sporny: is worried about that when the JSON CG thinks they are finished, they are going to have changes imposed by the RDF WG ←
15:29:01 <mischat> manu1: thinks that moving specs between groups won't be a fruitful activity
Manu Sporny: thinks that moving specs between groups won't be a fruitful activity ←
15:30:12 <gavinc> http://www.w3.org/community/groups/proposed/ ;)
Gavin Carothers: http://www.w3.org/community/groups/proposed/ ;) ←
15:30:20 <mischat> davidwood: thinks we should clean up issue two before we press on
David Wood: thinks we should clean up issue two before we press on ←
15:30:31 <PatH> we are falling into a black hole of premature optimization. This standard will be obsolete within a year.
Patrick Hayes: we are falling into a black hole of premature optimization. This standard will be obsolete within a year. ←
15:30:33 <mischat> ivan: doesn't think we need to recharter
Ivan Herman: doesn't think we need to recharter ←
15:30:52 <AndyS> q+ to ask what's the status of "make a Note on current practice stuff like Linked Data API" in issue/2 ?
Andy Seaborne: q+ to ask what's the status of "make a Note on current practice stuff like Linked Data API" in issue/2 ? ←
15:31:00 <davidwood> ack AndyS
David Wood: ack AndyS ←
15:31:00 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask what's the status of "make a Note on current practice stuff like Linked Data API" in issue/2 ?
Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS, you wanted to ask what's the status of "make a Note on current practice stuff like Linked Data API" in issue/2 ? ←
15:31:10 <mischat> davidwood: proposes that we vote, to remove "moving JSON from the rec"
David Wood: proposes that we vote, to remove "moving JSON from the rec" ←
15:31:39 <mischat> AndyS: is asking about the "note current practice stuff like Linked Data API" ?
Andy Seaborne: is asking about the "note current practice stuff like Linked Data API" ? ←
15:31:49 <mischat> davidwood: thinks that the issue there is that we don't have an editor
David Wood: thinks that the issue there is that we don't have an editor ←
15:32:14 <AndyS> q+
Andy Seaborne: q+ ←
15:32:35 <Zakim> +??P0
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P0 ←
15:32:56 <mischat> davidwood: proposed that we make no resolution to "to move RDF JSON to rec"
David Wood: proposed that we make no resolution to "to move RDF JSON to rec" ←
15:33:00 <AndyS> q+ to ask if we are going to advance it as a NOTE in the meantime or just pause work on it?
Andy Seaborne: q+ to ask if we are going to advance it as a NOTE in the meantime or just pause work on it? ←
15:33:06 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P0 is me
Yves Raimond: Zakim, ??P0 is me ←
15:33:06 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +yvesr; got it ←
15:33:09 <davidwood> ack AndyS
David Wood: ack AndyS ←
15:33:09 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask if we are going to advance it as a NOTE in the meantime or just pause work on it?
Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS, you wanted to ask if we are going to advance it as a NOTE in the meantime or just pause work on it? ←
15:33:13 <mischat> davidwood: i.e. we remove that statement from the resolution, so that we can push on
David Wood: i.e. we remove that statement from the resolution, so that we can push on ←
15:33:40 <mischat> AndyS: what do you mean by "not move to rec" ?
Andy Seaborne: what do you mean by "not move to rec" ? ←
15:33:54 <Zakim> +aharon
Zakim IRC Bot: +aharon ←
15:34:06 <mischat> davidwood: is proposing that we do no work on the RDF JSON, i.e. we hold off on all work, until we know what we are going to do in terms of RDF and JSON
David Wood: is proposing that we do no work on the RDF JSON, i.e. we hold off on all work, until we know what we are going to do in terms of RDF and JSON ←
15:34:06 <PatH> yvesr, we are just fixing peace in the middle east.
Patrick Hayes: yvesr, we are just fixing peace in the middle east. ←
15:34:48 <mischat> davidwood: just clarified that by "not moving to rec", does not mean "writing a note" it means "holding off work on the JSON RDF stuff for now"
David Wood: just clarified that by "not moving to rec", does not mean "writing a note" it means "holding off work on the JSON RDF stuff for now" ←
15:35:07 <davidwood> Proposed to remove the words "make a REC on something like Talis RDF/JSON" from the resolution to ISSUE-2
David Wood: Proposed to remove the words "make a REC on something like Talis RDF/JSON" from the resolution to ISSUE-2 ←
15:35:14 <tomayac> +1
Thomas Steiner: +1 ←
15:35:16 <manu1> +1
Manu Sporny: +1 ←
15:35:17 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
15:35:18 <MacTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
15:35:19 <mischat> mischat: +1
Mischa Tuffield: +1 ←
15:35:20 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
15:35:20 <zwu2> +1
15:35:20 <PatH> +1
Patrick Hayes: +1 ←
15:35:22 <mbrunati> +1
Matteo Brunati: +1 ←
15:35:24 <AlexHall> +1
15:35:24 <gavinc> +1 (TQ)
Gavin Carothers: +1 (TQ) ←
15:35:28 <LeeF> +1
Lee Feigenbaum: +1 ←
15:35:33 <NickH> +1
Nicholas Humfrey: +1 ←
15:36:04 <yvesr> +1
Yves Raimond: +1 ←
15:36:15 <mischat> the proposal is resolved. We are going to remove the words "make a REC on something like Talis RDF/JSON"
the proposal is resolved. We are going to remove the words "make a REC on something like Talis RDF/JSON" ←
15:36:23 <manu1> q+ to ask about JSON-LD Community Group
Manu Sporny: q+ to ask about JSON-LD Community Group ←
15:36:24 <mischat> davidwood: will fix the issue on the wiki
David Wood: will fix the issue on the wiki ←
15:36:30 <gavinc> Zakim, mute me
Gavin Carothers: Zakim, mute me ←
15:36:31 <Zakim> gavinc should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: gavinc should now be muted ←
15:36:54 <mischat> davidwood: has updated issue2
David Wood: has updated ISSUE-2 ←
15:37:01 <davidwood> ISSUE-76 Empty Lexical Space Disagreement
David Wood: ISSUE-76 Empty Lexical Space Disagreement ←
15:37:01 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/76
David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/76 ←
15:37:39 <PatH> zakim, unmute me
Patrick Hayes: zakim, unmute me ←
15:37:39 <Zakim> PatH should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should no longer be muted ←
15:37:42 <mischat> davidwood: can PatH summarise issue 76
David Wood: can PatH summarise ISSUE-76 ←
15:37:51 <manu1> q-
Manu Sporny: q- ←
15:38:30 <mischat> PatH: the intent for an empty lexical, so that any class name can be delivered as a datatype
Patrick Hayes: the intent for an empty lexical, so that any class name can be delivered as a datatype ←
15:39:12 <mischat> PatH: this causes problems, because an empty lexical returned will never be a suitable answer to a useful question
Patrick Hayes: this causes problems, because an empty lexical returned will never be a suitable answer to a useful question ←
15:39:51 <mischat> davidwood: Richard seemed to suggest that if we modified Concepts we would have to touch XSD
David Wood: Richard seemed to suggest that if we modified Concepts we would have to touch XSD ←
15:41:03 <mischat> davidwood: given that xsd is normative, we can't be changing that
David Wood: given that xsd is normative, we can't be changing that ←
15:41:28 <mischat> PatH: believes that this discussion has yet to come up before in the RDF world nor in the XSD world
Patrick Hayes: believes that this discussion has yet to come up before in the RDF world nor in the XSD world ←
15:41:41 <davidwood> Pat wrote: 3. No literal can denote any value in the value space of ex:empty.
David Wood: Pat wrote: 3. No literal can denote any value in the value space of ex:empty. ←
15:42:17 <davidwood> Antoine wrote: Point 3 is not correct. For instance, owl:real has an empty lexical space (as pointed out by Andy) and yet, there are plenty of literals that can denote a real number. "2"^^xsd:integer, "1.2"^^xsd:decimal, "1/3"^^owl:rational all denote elements of the value space of owl:real.
David Wood: Antoine wrote: Point 3 is not correct. For instance, owl:real has an empty lexical space (as pointed out by Andy) and yet, there are plenty of literals that can denote a real number. "2"^^xsd:integer, "1.2"^^xsd:decimal, "1/3"^^owl:rational all denote elements of the value space of owl:real. ←
15:42:59 <mischat> PatH: should have been more clear, you can't have a literal with that datatype
Patrick Hayes: should have been more clear, you can't have a literal with that datatype ←
15:44:47 <mischat> PatH: if we really want to allow empty lexical spaces, pat can update the semantic docs, but there would be a running thread of "assuming not an empty lexical space"
Patrick Hayes: if we really want to allow empty lexical spaces, pat can update the semantic docs, but there would be a running thread of "assuming not an empty lexical space" ←
15:45:04 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
15:45:11 <mischat> AndyS: asks where in the Semantics document would be need to be updates
Andy Seaborne: asks where in the Semantics document would be need to be updates ←
15:45:31 <mischat> PatH: said that he would go through the Semantics documents to see what needs changing
Patrick Hayes: said that he would go through the Semantics documents to see what needs changing ←
15:47:01 <mischat> PatH: if we believes this is bug, he can make the changes to semantics, and will update the text
Patrick Hayes: if we believes this is bug, he can make the changes to semantics, and will update the text ←
15:47:10 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
15:47:26 <mischat> PatH: notes that there is a conflict with the semantics and concepts.
Patrick Hayes: notes that there is a conflict with the semantics and concepts. ←
15:47:40 <mischat> davidwood: this that the core documents should agree is the salient point here
David Wood: this that the core documents should agree is the salient point here ←
15:48:12 <mischat> davidwood: doesn't believe that the resolution of this issue relies on the resolution of issue-12
David Wood: doesn't believe that the resolution of this issue relies on the resolution of ISSUE-12 ←
15:48:27 <mischat> davidwood: asked PatH whether he would need to wait for a resolution on issue12
David Wood: asked PatH whether he would need to wait for a resolution on ISSUE-12 ←
15:48:33 <mischat> PatH: said no
Patrick Hayes: said no ←
15:48:36 <davidwood> ack ivan
David Wood: ack ivan ←
15:49:31 <mischat> PatH: taking a step backwards on the language-tag issues, 2 or 3 solutions which have been put forward. And ivan feels that the various solutions are a matter of taste
Patrick Hayes: taking a step backwards on the language-tag issues, 2 or 3 solutions which have been put forward. And ivan feels that the various solutions are a matter of taste ←
15:50:10 <mischat> ivan: i thinks that we should put up a poll, where by the solutions are described in full, and then post poll, we should go with the solution the WG voted for
Ivan Herman: i thinks that we should put up a poll, where by the solutions are described in full, and then post poll, we should go with the solution the WG voted for ←
15:50:53 <mischat> PatH: thinks we are talking about different things, we are still talking about the disagreement between RDF semantics and concept.
Patrick Hayes: thinks we are talking about different things, we are still talking about the disagreement between RDF semantics and concept. ←
15:51:02 <mischat> ivan: acknowledges this.
Ivan Herman: acknowledges this. ←
15:51:15 <mischat> davidwood: asked PatH to work out the details with peter
David Wood: asked PatH to work out the details with peter ←
15:51:40 <mischat> resolution PatH has agreed to make the changes to the RDF Semantics and is happy to confirm the details with peter
resolution PatH has agreed to make the changes to the RDF Semantics and is happy to confirm the details with peter ←
15:51:40 <davidwood> RESOLVED ISSUE-76: Pat Hayes (RDF Semantics editor) has agreed to make this change to RDF Semantics and will confirm the details with Peter.
David Wood: RESOLVED ISSUE-76: Pat Hayes (RDF Semantics editor) has agreed to make this change to RDF Semantics and will confirm the details with Peter. ←
15:52:00 <PatH> e
Patrick Hayes: e ←
15:52:12 <PatH> zakim, mute me
Patrick Hayes: zakim, mute me ←
15:52:12 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should now be muted ←
15:52:13 <davidwood> ISSUE-12 language-tagged literals
David Wood: ISSUE-12 language-tagged literals ←
15:52:15 <mischat> davidwood: onto language tag literals now …
David Wood: onto language tag literals now … ←
15:52:38 <mischat> ivan: proposed to setup a poll, with the 2-3 alternatives made explicit, and then the working group can move forward
Ivan Herman: proposed to setup a poll, with the 2-3 alternatives made explicit, and then the working group can move forward ←
15:52:57 <mischat> ivan: doesn't think that the proposals are all the same from an end-user point of view
Ivan Herman: doesn't think that the proposals are all the same from an end-user point of view ←
15:53:17 <mischat> davidwood: thinks we have a summary of options, done by PatH on the 18th
David Wood: thinks we have a summary of options, done by PatH on the 18th ←
15:53:31 <davidwood> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Aug/0066.html
David Wood: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Aug/0066.html ←
15:53:31 <PatH> I will draft an email summarizing, for each alternative, what the pain points of that one are. There are some more alternatives now.
Patrick Hayes: I will draft an email summarizing, for each alternative, what the pain points of that one are. There are some more alternatives now. ←
15:53:41 <mischat> sandro: asked how he can find both PatH's and Pierre-A's summary
Sandro Hawke: asked how he can find both PatH's and Pierre-A's summary ←
15:54:05 <PatH> yes, and more uptodate
Patrick Hayes: yes, and more uptodate ←
15:54:20 <mischat> PatH: said he would draft an email summarising for each alternative, a more up-to-date summary
Patrick Hayes: said he would draft an email summarising for each alternative, a more up-to-date summary ←
15:54:25 <davidwood> Antoine's summary: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Aug/0181.html
David Wood: Antoine's summary: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Aug/0181.html ←
15:54:36 <mischat> ivan: thinks that a poll is the way forward
Ivan Herman: thinks that a poll is the way forward ←
15:54:38 <PatH> i agree about the poll.
Patrick Hayes: i agree about the poll. ←
15:54:58 <PatH> its my old action re-opened :-)
Patrick Hayes: its my old action re-opened :-) ←
15:55:22 <PatH> I will try to be objective, but good idea.
Patrick Hayes: I will try to be objective, but good idea. ←
15:55:35 <PatH> glad i am muted, guys.
Patrick Hayes: glad i am muted, guys. ←
15:55:47 <PatH> fofl here
Patrick Hayes: fofl here ←
15:56:04 <mischat> sandro: voices concerns about PatH's biased coming through too strongly in his summary, and would like that someone which doesn't agree with Pat would also chip in
Sandro Hawke: voices concerns about PatH's biased coming through too strongly in his summary, and would like that someone which doesn't agree with Pat would also chip in ←
15:56:15 <PatH> yes.
Patrick Hayes: yes. ←
15:56:26 <PatH> will do
Patrick Hayes: will do ←
15:56:45 <mischat> sandro: would like pierreA and PatH to work together to to produce the summary, as per sandro's suggestion
Sandro Hawke: would like pierreA and PatH to work together to to produce the summary, as per sandro's suggestion ←
15:57:13 <PatH> I have to leave in few minutes.
Patrick Hayes: I have to leave in few minutes. ←
15:57:27 <mischat> action PatH to work with pierreA to produce a summary of options re: language tags
action PatH to work with pierreA to produce a summary of options re: language tags ←
15:57:28 <trackbot> Created ACTION-80 - Work with pierreA to produce a summary of options re: language tags [on Patrick Hayes - due 2011-09-07].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-80 - Work with pierreA to produce a summary of options re: language tags [on Patrick Hayes - due 2011-09-07]. ←
15:57:44 <mischat> action ivan to set up a poll when PatH and Pierre are done with action 80
action ivan to set up a poll when PatH and Pierre are done with ACTION-80 ←
15:57:44 <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - ivan
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - ivan ←
15:57:44 <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. ivan, imikhail)
Trackbot IRC Bot: Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. ivan, imikhail) ←
15:58:32 <davidwood> action ivanh to set up a poll when PatH and Pierre are done with action 80
David Wood: action ivanh to set up a poll when PatH and Pierre are done with ACTION-80 ←
15:58:32 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - ivanh
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - ivanh ←
15:58:55 <mischat> action ivanherman to set up a poll when PatH and Pierre are done with action 80
action ivanherman to set up a poll when PatH and Pierre are done with ACTION-80 ←
15:58:55 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - ivanherman
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - ivanherman ←
15:59:00 <PatH> does case matter?
Patrick Hayes: does case matter? ←
15:59:26 <mischat> action ivanh to set up a poll when PatH and Pierre are done with action 80
action ivanh to set up a poll when PatH and Pierre are done with ACTION-80 ←
15:59:26 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - ivanh
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - ivanh ←
15:59:41 <PatH> :-)
Patrick Hayes: :-) ←
16:00:05 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/81
David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/81 ←
16:00:23 <PatH> hey, I have to leave. If i get any more actions, send me an email.
Patrick Hayes: hey, I have to leave. If i get any more actions, send me an email. ←
16:00:34 <mischat> davidwood: now we are ending on triples
David Wood: now we are ending on triples ←
16:00:35 <gavinc> zakim, unmute me
Gavin Carothers: zakim, unmute me ←
16:00:35 <Zakim> gavinc should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: gavinc should no longer be muted ←
16:00:44 <davidwood> N-Triples
David Wood: N-Triples ←
16:00:46 <mischat> davidwood: been thinking about Lee's position on triples
David Wood: been thinking about zhe's position on triples ←
16:00:53 <Zakim> -PatH
Zakim IRC Bot: -PatH ←
16:00:58 <gavinc> Topic: N-Triples
16:01:34 <mischat> davidwood: from a big vendor perspective, oracles perspective is valid, they don't want to break running code, and they don't want to confuse users
David Wood: from a big vendor perspective, oracles perspective is valid, they don't want to break running code, and they don't want to confuse users ←
16:01:40 <AlexHall> s/Lee/zhe
16:01:42 <mischat> thanks
thanks ←
16:01:43 <zwu2> it is me (Zhe) ivan
16:01:55 <zwu2> hey :)
16:02:11 <mischat> davidwood: wants to move forward re: aligning RDF and internationalisation
David Wood: wants to move forward re: aligning RDF and internationalisation ←
16:02:55 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
16:02:56 <MacTed> a fairly clear proposal on this from Richard -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Aug/0170.html
Ted Thibodeau: a fairly clear proposal on this from Richard -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Aug/0170.html ←
16:02:56 <mischat> davidwood: it seems to davidwood the best way to move forward to create a UTF-8 version of ntriples ?
David Wood: it seems to davidwood the best way to move forward to create a UTF-8 version of ntriples ? ←
16:03:01 <zwu2> zakim, unmute me
16:03:01 <Zakim> zwu2 should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: zwu2 should no longer be muted ←
16:03:05 <zwu2> q+
16:03:07 <mischat> davidwood: does this sound like a good idea to people ?
David Wood: does this sound like a good idea to people ? ←
16:03:14 <davidwood> ack zwu
David Wood: ack zwu ←
16:04:16 <mischat> zwu2: oracle are chatting internally about internationalisation and ntriples. and how this can go forward
Zhe Wu: oracle are chatting internally about internationalisation and ntriples. and how this can go forward ←
16:04:46 <mischat> zwu2: believes that an ascii ntriples, uft8 triples, and turtle should suffice
Zhe Wu: believes that an ascii ntriples, uft8 triples, and turtle should suffice ←
16:04:52 <davidwood> ack ivan
David Wood: ack ivan ←
16:05:07 <mischat> davidwood: the down side to what zwu2 said is that we would have more docs
David Wood: the down side to what zwu2 said is that we would have more docs ←
16:05:08 <NickH> Having more formats isn't a great situation to be in
Nicholas Humfrey: Having more formats isn't a great situation to be in ←
16:05:13 <NickH> there are quite a lot already
Nicholas Humfrey: there are quite a lot already ←
16:05:49 <mischat> ivan: so we wouldn't have multiple documents, it just would be a note in the turtle doc
Ivan Herman: so we wouldn't have multiple documents, it just would be a note in the turtle doc ←
16:05:55 <mischat> q+
q+ ←
16:05:57 <gavinc> +q to mention that N-Triples is NOT well specified at the moment, and has no specific media type.
Gavin Carothers: +q to mention that N-Triples is NOT well specified at the moment, and has no specific media type. ←
16:06:48 <Souri> something like: N-Triple, Turtle, Turtle/N-Triple (N-Triple subset of Turtle that also allows UTF-8)
Souripriya Das: something like: N-Triple, Turtle, Turtle/N-Triple (N-Triple subset of Turtle that also allows UTF-8) ←
16:06:57 <mischat> zwu2: this note, would be fine with oracle, but leaving ntriples as ascii would be great, they don't object to having another utf8 ntriples format
Zhe Wu: this note, would be fine with oracle, but leaving ntriples as ascii would be great, they don't object to having another utf8 ntriples format ←
16:07:03 <yvesr> NickH, +1
Yves Raimond: NickH, +1 ←
16:07:24 <davidwood> Zwu: Oracle does not object to creating a new version of ntriples with UTF-8 encoding, as long as ASCII-encoded ntriples remains an option.
Zhe Wu: Oracle does not object to creating a new version of ntriples with UTF-8 encoding, as long as ASCII-encoded ntriples remains an option. [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ] ←
16:07:26 <mischat> zwu2: as long as the ascii encode triples remains an option
Zhe Wu: as long as the ascii encode triples remains an option ←
16:07:41 <davidwood> ack mischat
David Wood: ack mischat ←
16:07:41 <AndyS> That is possible via "application/n-triples;charset=ascii"
Andy Seaborne: That is possible via "application/n-triples;charset=ascii" ←
16:07:44 <mischat> zwu2: oracle wants to ensure that existing software doesn't break
Zhe Wu: oracle wants to ensure that existing software doesn't break ←
16:07:46 <ericP> not sure that "remains an option" captures "has a distinct name", which i think they require
Eric Prud'hommeaux: not sure that "remains an option" captures "has a distinct name", which i think they require ←
16:07:46 <NickH> do we have to standardise ascii N-Triple at all then?
Nicholas Humfrey: do we have to standardise ascii N-Triple at all then? ←
16:08:25 <yvesr> zwu2, maybe stupid question - but does oracle actually support ntriples escaping, currently?
Yves Raimond: zwu2, maybe stupid question - but does oracle actually support ntriples escaping, currently? ←
16:08:38 <zwu2> yes yvesr
16:08:39 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
16:08:45 <davidwood> ack gavinc
David Wood: ack gavinc ←
16:08:45 <Zakim> gavinc, you wanted to mention that N-Triples is NOT well specified at the moment, and has no specific media type.
Zakim IRC Bot: gavinc, you wanted to mention that N-Triples is NOT well specified at the moment, and has no specific media type. ←
16:08:49 <NickH> mischat, it is easier to make an N-Triples parser than a Turtle parser - very useful to specifiy a subset
Nicholas Humfrey: mischat, it is easier to make an N-Triples parser than a Turtle parser - very useful to specifiy a subset ←
16:08:52 <ericP> manu1, i suspect it more about whether you can write UTF-8 N-Triples and act surprised when Oracle's tools don't swallow it
Eric Prud'hommeaux: manu1, i suspect it more about whether you can write UTF-8 N-Triples and act surprised when Oracle's tools don't swallow it ←
16:09:46 <mischat> gavinc: according the grammar, almost all of the test cases, they don't adhere to the grammar
Gavin Carothers: according the grammar, almost all of the test cases, they don't adhere to the grammar ←
16:10:11 <ericP> yeah, almost a branding issue
Eric Prud'hommeaux: yeah, almost a branding issue ←
16:10:19 <mischat> gavinc: doesn't think that people are using ntriples as specified
Gavin Carothers: doesn't think that people are using ntriples as specified ←
16:10:51 <ericP> i'd say it's useful to have a label which unambiguously advertises to your capabilities to your users
Eric Prud'hommeaux: i'd say it's useful to have a label which unambiguously advertises to your capabilities to your users ←
16:11:20 <yvesr> and what about just versioning the spec?
Yves Raimond: and what about just versioning the spec? ←
16:11:33 <mischat> gavinc: states that the "ntriples" mutli-encoding spec could state how each of the encoding could be used
Gavin Carothers: states that the "ntriples" mutli-encoding spec could state how each of the encoding could be used ←
16:11:55 <ericP> yvesr, prob is that v1 doesn't have a version identifier
Eric Prud'hommeaux: yvesr, prob is that v1 doesn't have a version identifier ←
16:11:57 <manu1> q+ to suggest two levels of conformance - ASCII and UTF-8.
Manu Sporny: q+ to suggest two levels of conformance - ASCII and UTF-8. ←
16:12:06 <AndyS> EricP : isn't that label ";charset=ascii"? What about "text/turtle;charset=ascii"
Andy Seaborne: EricP : isn't that label ";charset=ascii"? What about "text/turtle;charset=ascii" ←
16:12:09 <mischat> davidwood: notes that there is a difference between a standard and a vendor specific serialisation
David Wood: notes that there is a difference between a standard and a vendor specific serialisation ←
16:12:16 <yvesr> ericP, we could refer to it using its date (like rdf 2004)?
Yves Raimond: ericP, we could refer to it using its date (like rdf 2004)? ←
16:12:22 <ericP> AndyS, that's pretty compelling
Eric Prud'hommeaux: AndyS, that's pretty compelling ←
16:12:43 <NickH> davidwood++
Nicholas Humfrey: davidwood++ ←
16:13:05 <mischat> davidwood: we are chartered to standardising turtle, and we have the chance to align ntriples with current internationalisation efforts
David Wood: we are chartered to standardising turtle, and we have the chance to align ntriples with current internationalisation efforts ←
16:13:11 <ericP> write "ASCII Turtle" on the box and "Accept: text/turle;charset=ascii"
Eric Prud'hommeaux: write "ASCII Turtle" on the box and "Accept: text/turle;charset=ascii" ←
16:14:32 <AlexHall> zhe, over what interface does Oracle accept N-Triples documents? is it even HTTP?
Alex Hall: zhe, over what interface does Oracle accept N-Triples documents? is it even HTTP? ←
16:14:44 <mischat> gavinc: doesn't think that we need two specs, we can state that ntriples can be used either with ascii or utf8
Gavin Carothers: doesn't think that we need two specs, we can state that ntriples can be used either with ascii or utf8 ←
16:14:49 <NickH> even if it doesn't get standardised people will produce and parse N-Triples as utf8, rightly or wrongly
Nicholas Humfrey: even if it doesn't get standardised people will produce and parse N-Triples as utf8, rightly or wrongly ←
16:15:20 <davidwood> ack ivan
David Wood: ack ivan ←
16:15:41 <mischat> zwu2: oracles wants to be able to say that they support a standard. 2 levels of affordances to the ntriples serialisations.
Zhe Wu: oracles wants to be able to say that they support a standard. 2 levels of affordances to the ntriples serialisations. ←
16:15:59 <manu1> q-
Manu Sporny: q- ←
16:16:00 <Souri> I am happy with the choices: N-Triple (classic - unchanged), Turtle, Turtle/N-Triple (N-Triple subset of Turtle that also allows UTF-8)
Souripriya Das: I am happy with the choices: N-Triple (classic - unchanged), Turtle, Turtle/N-Triple (N-Triple subset of Turtle that also allows UTF-8) ←
16:16:00 <mischat> ivan: would we have a mime type for utf8 ntriples
Ivan Herman: would we have a mime type for utf8 ntriples ←
16:16:02 <gavinc> N-Triples Prime at the moment
Gavin Carothers: N-Triples Prime at the moment ←
16:16:14 <Souri> I am happy with the choices: N-Triple (classic - unchanged), Turtle, Turtle/N-Triple (N-Triple subset of Turtle that also allows UTF-8)
Souripriya Das: I am happy with the choices: N-Triple (classic - unchanged), Turtle, Turtle/N-Triple (N-Triple subset of Turtle that also allows UTF-8) ←
16:16:17 <manu1> q+ to make one final note about JSON-LD CG and RDF WG.
Manu Sporny: q+ to make one final note about JSON-LD CG and RDF WG. ←
16:16:26 <mischat> ivan: 2 media types: one for turtle and one for ntriples
Ivan Herman: 2 media types: one for turtle and one for ntriples ←
16:17:06 <mischat> ivan: the question would be, would we define a third mime type for triples ascii?
Ivan Herman: the question would be, would we define a third mime type for triples ascii? ←
16:17:31 <Souri> +1 agree to Ivan
Souripriya Das: +1 agree to Ivan ←
16:17:45 <mischat> gavinc: ntriples is not recommended as a transfer medium
Gavin Carothers: ntriples is not recommended as a transfer medium ←
16:18:04 <AndyS> (cough) N-Triples does have a media type - it's text/plain (sec 3).
Andy Seaborne: (cough) N-Triples does have a media type - it's text/plain (sec 3). ←
16:18:14 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me ←
16:18:14 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted ←
16:18:17 <gavinc> exactly
Gavin Carothers: exactly ←
16:18:25 <MacTed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Aug/0170.html
Ted Thibodeau: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Aug/0170.html ←
16:18:30 <gavinc> it intentionally did not have one
Gavin Carothers: it intentionally did not have one ←
16:18:36 <mischat> MacTed: richard's very clear proposal ^^
Ted Thibodeau: richard's very clear proposal ^^ ←
16:20:16 <mischat> gavinc: is pretty sure that richard's proposal has been added to turtle's current editor's draft (n-triples prime)
Gavin Carothers: is pretty sure that richard's proposal has been added to turtle's current editor's draft (n-triples prime) ←
16:20:26 <gavinc> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/n-triples/rdf-turtle/index.html
Gavin Carothers: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/n-triples/rdf-turtle/index.html ←
16:21:07 <mischat> davidwood: would we leave the ntriples in test-cases? and would be only have ntriples prime in the turtle doc?
David Wood: would we leave the ntriples in test-cases? and would be only have ntriples prime in the turtle doc? ←
16:21:10 <davidwood> PROPOSED: Create a UTF version of ntriples in the Turtle REC, while making clear that the ASCII version of ntriples is still acceptable for use. ASCII ntriples would continue to live in the test cases document. File extensions and media types should be in conformance to the proposal at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Aug/0170.html
PROPOSED: Create a UTF version of ntriples in the Turtle REC, while making clear that the ASCII version of ntriples is still acceptable for use. ASCII ntriples would continue to live in the test cases document. File extensions and media types should be in conformance to the proposal at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Aug/0170.html ←
16:21:26 <yvesr> i wonder why oracle breaking 'standards compliance' would be an issue, as there's no w3c rec for ntriples atm?
Yves Raimond: i wonder why oracle breaking 'standards compliance' would be an issue, as there's no w3c rec for ntriples atm? ←
16:21:26 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
16:21:38 <gavinc> -1 To N-Triples still being in Test Cases
Gavin Carothers: -1 To N-Triples still being in Test Cases ←
16:21:39 <yvesr> +0
Yves Raimond: +0 ←
16:21:53 <LeeF> abstain
Lee Feigenbaum: abstain ←
16:22:06 <mischat> zwu2: asking him whether the ascii-ntriples goes into the rec ?
Zhe Wu: asking him whether the ascii-ntriples goes into the rec ? ←
16:22:12 <zwu2> +1
16:22:40 <LeeF> I don't care from a Cambridge Semantics point of view, but I don't think it's that helpful to the world to have 2 versions of n-triples
Lee Feigenbaum: I don't care from a Cambridge Semantics point of view, but I don't think it's that helpful to the world to have 2 versions of n-triples ←
16:23:10 <yvesr> LeeF, +1
Yves Raimond: LeeF, +1 ←
16:23:11 <LeeF> :-)
Lee Feigenbaum: :-) ←
16:23:36 <MacTed> +1 to overall proposal ... thinking that UTF-8 ntriples should then also be added to Test Cases
Ted Thibodeau: +1 to overall proposal ... thinking that UTF-8 ntriples should then also be added to Test Cases ←
16:23:43 <NickH> Could we have a new thing with a new name that is Ntriples Utf8?
Nicholas Humfrey: Could we have a new thing with a new name that is Ntriples Utf8? ←
16:23:45 <mischat> gavinc: as an editor thinks we can specify a version of ntriples which can support ascii
Gavin Carothers: as an editor thinks we can specify a version of ntriples which can support ascii ←
16:23:54 <AndyS> +0.75 (one form, use charset to disambiguiate)
Andy Seaborne: +0.75 (one form, use charset to disambiguiate) ←
16:24:08 <NickH> and never standardise N-triples ASCII
Nicholas Humfrey: and never standardise N-triples ASCII ←
16:24:26 <LeeF> To me, having one version of a technology feels more important than unanimous consensus on an issue like this
Lee Feigenbaum: To me, having one version of a technology feels more important than unanimous consensus on an issue like this ←
16:24:44 <LeeF> (And I don't care which version it is. :-)
Lee Feigenbaum: (And I don't care which version it is. :-) ←
16:24:46 <manu1> +0
Manu Sporny: +0 ←
16:24:46 <mischat> mischat: i agree with AndyS here, one media type and charset to disambiguate seems like the right thing
Mischa Tuffield: i agree with AndyS here, one media type and charset to disambiguate seems like the right thing ←
16:24:52 <mischat> mischat: +0.2
Mischa Tuffield: +0.2 ←
16:24:59 <Souri> A new name for the extended version: possible choices: N-Triples Prime, N-Triples/UTF-8
Souripriya Das: A new name for the extended version: possible choices: N-Triples Prime, N-Triples/UTF-8 ←
16:25:06 <manu1> +0 (not a clear idea of the rammifications of the proposal)
Manu Sporny: +0 (not a clear idea of the rammifications of the proposal) ←
16:26:05 <Souri> Another choice for name: Turtle/N
Souripriya Das: Another choice for name: Turtle/N ←
16:26:13 <mischat> davidwood: ntriples is not prohibited as something going across the wire
David Wood: ntriples is not prohibited as something going across the wire ←
16:26:47 <manu1> what about this - PROPOSAL: Allow two levels of conformance in N-Triples - people MAY use ASCII-only, but UTF-8 is RECOMMENDED.
Manu Sporny: what about this - PROPOSAL: Allow two levels of conformance in N-Triples - people MAY use ASCII-only, but UTF-8 is RECOMMENDED. ←
16:26:52 <gavinc> -0.5
Gavin Carothers: -0.5 ←
16:26:56 <AndyS> ASCII N-triples , UTF-8 N-triples :: common name "N-triples" -- market decides exactly the def of common name.
Andy Seaborne: ASCII N-triples , UTF-8 N-triples :: common name "N-triples" -- market decides exactly the def of common name. ←
16:27:09 <mischat> yup
yup ←
16:27:19 <AndyS> +1 to manu1
Andy Seaborne: +1 to manu1 ←
16:27:29 <manu1> q-
Manu Sporny: q- ←
16:27:55 <mischat> davidwood: resolve we would have two version of ntriples, a utf8 and a us-ascii one
David Wood: resolve we would have two version of ntriples, a utf8 and a us-ascii one ←
16:28:12 <mischat> so that oracle's software won't break
so that oracle's software won't break ←
16:28:13 <manu1> I just wanted to say: I hope I didn't have too much of an anti-RDF vibe in what I said - I have a great deal of respect for the people in this group. I just don't think that this group is the right one to standardize the JSON-LD work.
Manu Sporny: I just wanted to say: I hope I didn't have too much of an anti-RDF vibe in what I said - I have a great deal of respect for the people in this group. I just don't think that this group is the right one to standardize the JSON-LD work. ←
16:28:18 <yvesr> bye!
Yves Raimond: bye! ←
16:28:20 <Zakim> -Scott_Bauer
Zakim IRC Bot: -Scott_Bauer ←
16:28:22 <Zakim> -Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan ←
16:28:22 <davidwood> RESOLVED: Create a UTF version of ntriples in the Turtle REC, while making clear that the ASCII version of ntriples is still acceptable for use. ASCII ntriples would continue to live in the test cases document. File extensions and media types should be in conformance to the proposal at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Aug/0170.html
RESOLVED: Create a UTF version of ntriples in the Turtle REC, while making clear that the ASCII version of ntriples is still acceptable for use. ASCII ntriples would continue to live in the test cases document. File extensions and media types should be in conformance to the proposal at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Aug/0170.html ←
16:28:23 <mischat> zwu2: just thanked gavinc for his hardwork
Zhe Wu: just thanked gavinc for his hardwork ←
16:28:23 <Zakim> -MacTed
Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed ←
16:28:24 <Zakim> -yvesr
Zakim IRC Bot: -yvesr ←
16:28:25 <Zakim> -Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro ←
16:28:27 <Zakim> -AlexHall
Zakim IRC Bot: -AlexHall ←
16:28:30 <Zakim> -gavinc
Zakim IRC Bot: -gavinc ←
16:28:31 <mbrunati> bye
Matteo Brunati: bye ←
16:28:34 <Zakim> -Souri
Zakim IRC Bot: -Souri ←
16:28:36 <Zakim> -EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: -EricP ←
16:28:36 <Zakim> -LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: -LeeF ←
16:28:38 <Zakim> -davidwood
Zakim IRC Bot: -davidwood ←
16:28:40 <Zakim> -zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: -zwu2 ←
16:28:42 <Zakim> -mischat
Zakim IRC Bot: -mischat ←
16:28:44 <Zakim> -??P18
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P18 ←
16:28:45 <Zakim> -NickH
Zakim IRC Bot: -NickH ←
16:28:50 <davidwood> RRSAgent, make minutes
David Wood: RRSAgent, make minutes ←
16:28:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/31-rdf-wg-minutes.html davidwood
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/31-rdf-wg-minutes.html davidwood ←
16:29:07 <Zakim> -AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS ←
16:30:29 <mischat> do i need to do more stuff
do i need to do more stuff ←
16:30:30 <mischat> ?
? ←
16:30:46 <mischat> i have only been an on incubator group with harry before
i have only been an on incubator group with harry before ←
16:31:02 <mischat> we did no post-scribe tidy-ups :)
we did no post-scribe tidy-ups :) ←
16:31:10 <davidwood> I think that's it. Thanks for scribing!
David Wood: I think that's it. Thanks for scribing! ←
16:31:16 <mischat> np
np ←
17:32:17 <Zakim> -tomayac
(No events recorded for 61 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: -tomayac ←
17:33:10 <Zakim> -manu1
Zakim IRC Bot: -manu1 ←
17:33:38 <manu1> zakim, who is on the call?
Manu Sporny: zakim, who is on the call? ←
17:33:38 <Zakim> On the phone I see aharon
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see aharon ←
17:33:45 <manu1> zakim, drop aharon
Manu Sporny: zakim, drop aharon ←
17:33:45 <Zakim> aharon is being disconnected
Zakim IRC Bot: aharon is being disconnected ←
17:33:47 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended ←
17:33:48 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.540.898.aaaa, Sandro, mischat, AndyS, Ivan, +1.443.212.aabb, davidwood, AlexHall, MacTed, +1.404.978.aacc, tomayac, Souri, zwu2, manu1, Scott_Bauer, EricP,
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were +1.540.898.aaaa, Sandro, mischat, AndyS, Ivan, +1.443.212.aabb, davidwood, AlexHall, MacTed, +1.404.978.aacc, tomayac, Souri, zwu2, manu1, Scott_Bauer, EricP, ←
17:33:51 <Zakim> ... +1.707.861.aaee, gavinc, +1.617.553.aaff, LeeF, PatH, NickH, yvesr, aharon
Zakim IRC Bot: ... +1.707.861.aaee, gavinc, +1.617.553.aaff, LeeF, PatH, NickH, yvesr, aharon ←
Formatted by CommonScribe