14:57:28 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/07/06-rdf-wg-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/07/06-rdf-wg-irc ←
14:58:30 <davidwood> zakim, code?
David Wood: zakim, code? ←
14:58:31 <Zakim> sorry, davidwood, I don't know what conference this is
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, davidwood, I don't know what conference this is ←
14:58:47 <davidwood> zakim, I agree with Pat. You can be hopeless at times.
David Wood: zakim, I agree with Pat. You can be hopeless at times. ←
14:58:47 <Zakim> I don't understand you, davidwood
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand you, davidwood ←
14:59:32 <gavinc> zakim, this will be rdf
Gavin Carothers: zakim, this will be rdf ←
14:59:32 <Zakim> ok, gavinc, I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM already started
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, gavinc, I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM already started ←
14:59:53 <yvesr> Zakim, who is on the phone?
Yves Raimond: Zakim, who is on the phone? ←
14:59:53 <Zakim> On the phone I see +44.207.923.aaaa, ??P11, ??P16, davidwood
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see +44.207.923.aaaa, ??P11, ??P16, davidwood ←
15:00:03 <Zakim> +??P22
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P22 ←
15:00:04 <AndyS> zakim, ??P16 is me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, ??P16 is me ←
15:00:04 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it ←
15:00:06 <yvesr> Zakim, +44.207.923.aaaa is yvesr
Yves Raimond: Zakim, +44.207.923.aaaa is yvesr ←
15:00:06 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +yvesr; got it ←
15:00:11 <yvesr> Zakim, mute me
Yves Raimond: Zakim, mute me ←
15:00:12 <AndyS> (maybe)
Andy Seaborne: (maybe) ←
15:00:13 <Zakim> +gavinc
Zakim IRC Bot: +gavinc ←
15:00:13 <Zakim> yvesr should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: yvesr should now be muted ←
15:00:23 <AndyS> zakim, mute me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, mute me ←
15:00:23 <Zakim> AndyS should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS should now be muted ←
15:00:27 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer
Zakim IRC Bot: +Scott_Bauer ←
15:00:34 <davidwood> zakim, who is talking?
David Wood: zakim, who is talking? ←
15:00:45 <Zakim> davidwood, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Scott_Bauer (5%)
Zakim IRC Bot: davidwood, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Scott_Bauer (5%) ←
15:00:49 <cmatheus> zakim, ??P22 is me
Christopher Matheus: zakim, ??P22 is me ←
15:00:49 <Zakim> +cmatheus; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +cmatheus; got it ←
15:00:52 <Zakim> +??P34
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P34 ←
15:01:01 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software ←
15:01:03 <AndyS> zakim, unmute me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, unmute me ←
15:01:03 <Zakim> AndyS should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: AndyS should no longer be muted ←
15:01:06 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me ←
15:01:06 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it ←
15:01:08 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
15:01:08 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
15:01:16 <mbrunati> zakim, ??P34 is me
Matteo Brunati: zakim, ??P34 is me ←
15:01:16 <Zakim> +mbrunati; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +mbrunati; got it ←
15:01:19 <pchampin> zakim, who is on the phone?
Pierre-Antoine Champin: zakim, who is on the phone? ←
15:01:19 <Zakim> On the phone I see yvesr (muted), ??P11 (muted), AndyS, davidwood, cmatheus, gavinc, Scott_Bauer, mbrunati, MacTed (muted)
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see yvesr (muted), ??P11 (muted), AndyS, davidwood, cmatheus, gavinc, Scott_Bauer, mbrunati, MacTed (muted) ←
15:01:22 <Zakim> +LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: +LeeF ←
15:01:35 <pchampin> zakim, ??P11 is me
Pierre-Antoine Champin: zakim, ??P11 is me ←
15:01:35 <Zakim> +pchampin; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +pchampin; got it ←
15:01:36 <Zakim> +??P38
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P38 ←
15:01:44 <mischat_> zakim, ??P38 is me
Mischa Tuffield: zakim, ??P38 is me ←
15:01:44 <Zakim> +mischat_; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +mischat_; got it ←
15:01:48 <mischat_> zakim, mute me
Mischa Tuffield: zakim, mute me ←
15:01:48 <Zakim> mischat_ should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: mischat_ should now be muted ←
15:01:49 <cmatheus> hello, I'm am here and ready to scribe.
Christopher Matheus: hello, I'm am here and ready to scribe. ←
15:01:52 <mischat_> hello
Mischa Tuffield: hello ←
15:01:53 <davidwood> Thanks
David Wood: Thanks ←
15:02:11 <cmatheus> scribe: cmatheus
(Scribe set to Christopher Matheus)
15:02:11 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.443.212.aabb ←
15:02:24 <AlexHall> zakim, aabb is me
Alex Hall: zakim, aabb is me ←
15:02:24 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AlexHall; got it ←
15:02:36 <cmatheus> zakim, scribe: cmatheus
zakim, scribe: cmatheus ←
15:02:36 <Zakim> I don't understand 'scribe: cmatheus', cmatheus
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'scribe: cmatheus', cmatheus ←
15:02:36 <zwu2> zakim, code?
15:02:38 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), zwu2 ←
15:02:50 <sandro> regrets: sandro
15:02:51 <cmatheus> Scribe: cmatheus
15:02:51 <davidwood> scribe: cmatheus
15:03:04 <Zakim> +tomayac
Zakim IRC Bot: +tomayac ←
15:03:17 <cmatheus> I was expecting a confirmation from Zakim but haven't seen one.
I was expecting a confirmation from Zakim but haven't seen one. ←
15:03:18 <davidwood> sandro: We could use your help with the 22 June telecon minutes if you can. Please see email for details.
Sandro Hawke: We could use your help with the 22 June telecon minutes if you can. Please see email for details. [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ] ←
15:03:23 <Zakim> +zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2 ←
15:03:28 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
15:03:28 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: zwu2 should now be muted ←
15:03:31 <AndyS> zakim a bit confused? #41 not working? Very very delayed?
Andy Seaborne: zakim a bit confused? #41 not working? Very very delayed? ←
15:03:46 <Zakim> -AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS ←
15:03:46 <davidwood> Scribe: Christopher Matheus
15:03:54 <cmatheus> is there a way to confirm that am the scribe?
is there a way to confirm that am the scribe? ←
15:03:57 <davidwood> scribenick: cmatheus
15:04:07 <sandro> done, davidwood
Sandro Hawke: done, davidwood ←
15:04:11 <Zakim> +??P16
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P16 ←
15:04:16 <AndyS> zakim, ??P16 is me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, ??P16 is me ←
15:04:16 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it ←
15:04:21 <davidwood> cmatheus, That is an RRSAgent function, not a Zakim function.
David Wood: cmatheus, That is an RRSAgent function, not a Zakim function. ←
15:04:26 <Zakim> +iand
Zakim IRC Bot: +iand ←
15:04:28 <davidwood> sandro, thanks!
David Wood: sandro, thanks! ←
15:04:39 <cmatheus> thanks
thanks ←
15:04:43 <davidwood> np
David Wood: np ←
15:04:51 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
David Wood: Zakim, who is here? ←
15:04:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see yvesr (muted), pchampin (muted), davidwood, cmatheus, gavinc, Scott_Bauer, mbrunati, MacTed (muted), LeeF, mischat_ (muted), AlexHall, tomayac, zwu2 (muted),
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see yvesr (muted), pchampin (muted), davidwood, cmatheus, gavinc, Scott_Bauer, mbrunati, MacTed (muted), LeeF, mischat_ (muted), AlexHall, tomayac, zwu2 (muted), ←
15:04:55 <Zakim> ... AndyS, iand
Zakim IRC Bot: ... AndyS, iand ←
15:05:17 <sandro> scribe: cmatheus
15:05:50 <cmatheus> davidwood: telecom minutes from June 22 -- I don't see them
David Wood: telecom minutes from June 22 -- I don't see them ←
15:06:16 <davidwood> sandro, URL for the 22 June minutes? I don't see them...
David Wood: sandro, URL for the 22 June minutes? I don't see them... ←
15:06:53 <AndyS> Were there minutes from the graph terminology RDF/SPARQL telecon?
Andy Seaborne: Were there minutes from the graph terminology RDF/SPARQL telecon? ←
<cmatheus> Topic: June 29 telecon minutes
15:06:56 <davidwood> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 29 June telecon:
David Wood: PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 29 June telecon: ←
15:06:56 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-06-29
David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-06-29 ←
15:07:02 <cmatheus> in mean time... propose to accept minutes form June 29
in mean time... propose to accept minutes form June 29 ←
15:07:21 <AndyS> OK - thx davidwood.
Andy Seaborne: OK - thx davidwood. ←
15:07:28 <cmatheus> does anyone object to them being accepted?
does anyone object to them being accepted? ←
15:07:35 <sandro> davidwood, http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-06-22
Sandro Hawke: davidwood, http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-06-22 ←
15:07:41 <sandro> (not cleaned up AT ALL thought)
Sandro Hawke: (not cleaned up AT ALL thought) ←
15:07:42 <cmatheus> okay, accpet the June 29 minutes as written
okay, accpet the June 29 minutes as written ←
15:08:04 <cmatheus> Resolution: minutes June 29 acceptted
RESOLVED: minutes June 29 acceptted ←
15:08:36 <yvesr> i did
Yves Raimond: i did ←
<cmatheus> Topic: June 22 telecon minutes
15:08:45 <cmatheus> davidwood: Richard was going to fix the minutes but is on holiday
David Wood: Richard was going to fix the minutes but is on holiday ←
15:09:08 <cmatheus> typical of summer so we'll leave in his hands
typical of summer so we'll leave in his hands ←
15:09:44 <gavinc> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-06-22 haven't you know read them
Gavin Carothers: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-06-22 haven't you know read them ←
15:09:50 <cmatheus> I'm no longer in member acl so some things I cannot edit
I'm no longer in member acl so some things I cannot edit ←
15:10:12 <cmatheus> we now have minutes for 22 June meeting -- please look through them so we can resolve them
we now have minutes for 22 June meeting -- please look through them so we can resolve them ←
15:10:54 <cmatheus> no resolutions but thought there were some action items taken
no resolutions but thought there were some action items taken ←
<cmatheus> Topic: Issue 32
15:11:26 <cmatheus> one thing from meeting was we agreed to defer issue 32 until next meeting
one thing from meeting was we agreed to defer ISSUE-32 until next meeting ←
15:11:36 <cmatheus> discussed on June 29 but no resolution was proposed
discussed on June 29 but no resolution was proposed ←
15:11:42 <LeeF> I am, but there are people talking in my office
Lee Feigenbaum: I am, but there are people talking in my office ←
15:11:57 <LeeF> ISSUE-32?
15:11:57 <trackbot> ISSUE-32 -- Can we identify both g-boxes and g-snaps? -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-32 -- Can we identify both g-boxes and g-snaps? -- open ←
15:11:57 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/32
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/32 ←
15:12:02 <cmatheus> is Lee here today? do you have any comment on issue 32?
is Lee here today? do you have any comment on ISSUE-32? ←
15:12:29 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-office
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Zakim, please dial ericP-office ←
15:12:29 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ericP; the call is being made ←
15:12:30 <cmatheus> LeeF: I think we discussed it a bunch but we said we had to wait on actions from graph telecomm
Lee Feigenbaum: I think we discussed it a bunch but we said we had to wait on actions from graph telecomm ←
15:12:35 <Zakim> +PatHayes
Zakim IRC Bot: +PatHayes ←
15:12:54 <cmatheus> things seemed close but there were actions on Righard and a few others to make a proposal to align things
things seemed close but there were actions on Righard and a few others to make a proposal to align things ←
15:13:11 <cmatheus> davidwood: with that taken care of are there objections to June 22 minutes?
David Wood: with that taken care of are there objections to June 22 minutes? ←
15:13:23 <AndyS> abstain (was no there)
Andy Seaborne: abstain (was no there) ←
15:13:28 <AndyS> abstain (was not there)
Andy Seaborne: abstain (was not there) ←
15:13:30 <cmatheus> resolution: accept minutes for June 22
RESOLVED: accept minutes for June 22 ←
15:13:35 <davidwood> Turtle Editors Draft
David Wood: Turtle Editors Draft ←
15:13:35 <davidwood> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/tip/rdf-turtle/index.html
David Wood: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/tip/rdf-turtle/index.html ←
15:13:35 <davidwood> ▪ Discuss existing issues, notes.
David Wood: ▪ Discuss existing issues, notes. ←
15:13:35 <davidwood> ▪ Any other issues to raise?
David Wood: ▪ Any other issues to raise? ←
<cmatheus> Topic: Turtle
15:13:56 <cmatheus> davidwood: move on to turtle discussion
David Wood: move on to turtle discussion ←
15:14:39 <cygri> zakim, what's the code?
Richard Cyganiak: zakim, what's the code? ←
15:14:39 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), cygri
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), cygri ←
15:14:44 <cmatheus> Eric or Gavin, which would like to go through document in terms of issues and notes?
Eric or Gavin, which would like to go through document in terms of issues and notes? ←
15:14:47 <Zakim> +cygri
Zakim IRC Bot: +cygri ←
15:15:03 <cmatheus> ericp: gavin more tapped in than me
Eric Prud'hommeaux: gavin more tapped in than me ←
15:15:16 <davidwood> cygri, hi. Have you been able to create minutes for the RDF/SPARQL telecon?
David Wood: cygri, hi. Have you been able to create minutes for the RDF/SPARQL telecon? ←
15:15:45 <cmatheus> gavinc: out standing issue 13 around xsd strings and plain literals, some language about it in the draft
Gavin Carothers: out standing ISSUE-13 around xsd strings and plain literals, some language about it in the draft ←
15:16:02 <cmatheus> issue about escape sequences being allowed
issue about escape sequences being allowed ←
15:16:09 <PatH> david, if that was meant for me, not yet.
Patrick Hayes: david, if that was meant for me, not yet. ←
15:16:10 <cmatheus> and the grammar table has issues
and the grammar table has issues ←
15:16:24 <cygri> davidwood, no, totally forgot about it, sorry. i have the log and will do it first thing tomorrow
Richard Cyganiak: davidwood, no, totally forgot about it, sorry. i have the log and will do it first thing tomorrow ←
15:16:26 <Zakim> -pchampin
Zakim IRC Bot: -pchampin ←
15:16:30 <cmatheus> in the production of the table (editorial issue)
in the production of the table (editorial issue) ←
15:16:48 <cmatheus> davidwood: associate issue in doc with working group issues
David Wood: associate issue in doc with working group issues ←
15:17:02 <cmatheus> gavin: I didnt see an issue for the one Eric added?
Gavin Carothers: I didnt see an issue for the one Eric added? ←
15:17:11 <ericP> ericP has changed the topic to: RDF-WG weekly meeting - Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.07.06
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ericP has changed the topic to: RDF-WG weekly meeting - Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.07.06 ←
15:17:16 <cmatheus> ericP: I'm not sure there's an issue for that
Eric Prud'hommeaux: I'm not sure there's an issue for that ←
15:17:30 <cmatheus> davidwood: there's an issue that hasn't been openned and we should
David Wood: there's an issue that hasn't been openned and we should ←
15:17:38 <gavinc> AndyS, where?
Gavin Carothers: AndyS, where? ←
15:17:57 <Zakim> +??P11
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P11 ←
15:18:00 <cmatheus> gavin: if there is one it would be good to be able to link to it
Gavin Carothers: if there is one it would be good to be able to link to it ←
15:18:03 <AndyS> gavinc - in the abstract (in tip)
Andy Seaborne: gavinc - in the abstract (in tip) ←
15:18:06 <pchampin> zakim, ??P11 is me
Pierre-Antoine Champin: zakim, ??P11 is me ←
15:18:06 <Zakim> +pchampin; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +pchampin; got it ←
15:18:30 <cmatheus> davidwood: we have 9 issues that have been raised and not openned
David Wood: we have 9 issues that have been raised and not openned ←
15:18:34 <AndyS> gavinc - not a block on FPWD
Andy Seaborne: gavinc - not a block on FPWD ←
15:19:12 <cmatheus> I'd rather use tracker to track issues so we should raise issues for these
I'd rather use tracker to track issues so we should raise issues for these ←
15:19:42 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/new
David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/new ←
15:19:46 <AndyS> ISSUE-13?
15:19:46 <trackbot> ISSUE-13 -- Review RDF XML Literals -- open
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-13 -- Review RDF XML Literals -- open ←
15:19:46 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/13
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/13 ←
15:19:56 <cmatheus> gavinc: why don't I create a place holder one and we can use that
Gavin Carothers: why don't I create a place holder one and we can use that ←
15:20:22 <cmatheus> davidwood: issue 12 has been closed
David Wood: ISSUE-12 has been closed ←
15:21:14 <Zakim> -cmatheus
Zakim IRC Bot: -cmatheus ←
15:21:26 <cmatheus> cygri: issue 12 isn't closed
Richard Cyganiak: ISSUE-12 isn't closed ←
15:21:46 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
David Wood: Zakim, who is here? ←
15:21:49 <Zakim> ... cygri, pchampin (muted)
Zakim IRC Bot: ... cygri, pchampin (muted) ←
15:21:52 <cmatheus> I JUST LOST MY PHONE CONNECTION -- COULD SOMEONE SCRIBE UNTIL I GET BACK ON?
I JUST LOST MY PHONE CONNECTION -- COULD SOMEONE SCRIBE UNTIL I GET BACK ON? ←
15:22:28 <Zakim> + +33.4.72.69.aacc
Zakim IRC Bot: + +33.4.72.69.aacc ←
15:22:35 <pchampin> zakim, aacc is me
Pierre-Antoine Champin: zakim, aacc is me ←
15:22:35 <Zakim> +pchampin; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +pchampin; got it ←
15:22:54 <mischat> gavinc: : sandro asked about a change to turtle to allow <script> tags to inject turtle into an HTML document
Gavin Carothers: : sandro asked about a change to turtle to allow <script> tags to inject turtle into an HTML document [ Scribe Assist by Mischa Tuffield ] ←
15:22:55 <Zakim> +??P15
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P15 ←
15:23:00 <cmatheus> I'm back
I'm back ←
15:23:39 <mischat> zakim, ??P15 is cmatheus
Mischa Tuffield: zakim, ??P15 is cmatheus ←
15:23:39 <Zakim> +cmatheus; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +cmatheus; got it ←
15:23:45 <mischat> zakim, mute cmatheus
Mischa Tuffield: zakim, mute cmatheus ←
15:23:45 <Zakim> cmatheus should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: cmatheus should now be muted ←
15:24:21 <Zakim> -zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: -zwu2 ←
15:24:35 <mischat> gavinc: mentions that the examples in the source code of the current working spec is in the format which sandro asked for
Gavin Carothers: mentions that the examples in the source code of the current working spec is in the format which sandro asked for [ Scribe Assist by Mischa Tuffield ] ←
15:24:50 <Zakim> +zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2 ←
15:24:53 <cmatheus> davidwood: it's been well supported by browsers but not not by developers -- worth calling out.
David Wood: it's been well supported by browsers but not not by developers -- worth calling out. ←
15:25:04 <mischat> davidwood: doesn't think that the <script> tag approach isn't that well known by developers, and should be highlighted by this group
David Wood: doesn't think that the <script> tag approach isn't that well known by developers, and should be highlighted by this group [ Scribe Assist by Mischa Tuffield ] ←
15:25:06 <cmatheus> gavinc: I can stick it in there
Gavin Carothers: I can stick it in there ←
15:25:46 <cmatheus> davidwood: we're trying to move this into a working draft -- what's it look like on your schedule as far as moving this into a working draft?
David Wood: we're trying to move this into a working draft -- what's it look like on your schedule as far as moving this into a working draft? ←
15:25:52 <cmatheus> gavinc: I'd like to
Gavin Carothers: I'd like to ←
15:25:57 <cmatheus> ericp: I'd like to
Eric Prud'hommeaux: I'd like to ←
15:26:02 <mischat> this is sandro email about the <script/> tag http://www.w3.org/mid/1307483315.2989.75.camel@waldron FWIW
Mischa Tuffield: this is sandro email about the <script/> tag http://www.w3.org/mid/1307483315.2989.75.camel@waldron FWIW ←
15:26:03 <iand> +1 to publishing turtle draft as wd
Ian Davis: +1 to publishing turtle draft as wd ←
15:26:18 <mischat> +1 to the turtle draft as a wd
Mischa Tuffield: +1 to the turtle draft as a wd ←
15:26:20 <cmatheus> davidwood: why don't we just do that in this meeing?
David Wood: why don't we just do that in this meeing? ←
15:26:26 <PatH> +1
Patrick Hayes: +1 ←
15:26:31 <davidwood> +1
David Wood: +1 ←
15:26:32 <yvesr> +1
Yves Raimond: +1 ←
15:26:32 <mischat> +1
Mischa Tuffield: +1 ←
15:26:33 <zwu2> +1
15:26:34 <iand> +1
15:26:34 <mbrunati> +1
Matteo Brunati: +1 ←
15:26:34 <AndyS> +1 to publishing Turtle doc as WD
Andy Seaborne: +1 to publishing Turtle doc as WD ←
15:26:37 <ericP> +1
Eric Prud'hommeaux: +1 ←
15:26:38 <tomayac> +1
Thomas Steiner: +1 ←
15:26:39 <cmatheus> if the editors are ready I propose we move the turtle doc to a working draft today
if the editors are ready I propose we move the turtle doc to a working draft today ←
15:26:40 <AlexHall> +1
15:26:44 <LeeF> +1
Lee Feigenbaum: +1 ←
15:26:45 <cmatheus> cmatheus: +1
Christopher Matheus: +1 ←
15:26:45 <gavinc> +1 to publishing turtle as FPWD
Gavin Carothers: +1 to publishing turtle as FPWD ←
15:26:50 <NickH> +1
Nicholas Humfrey: +1 ←
15:26:57 <cmatheus> davidwood: so resolved
David Wood: so resolved ←
15:27:09 <pchampin> +1
15:27:13 <cygri> q+�
Richard Cyganiak: q+� ←
15:27:21 <davidwood> RESOLVED: Move http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/tip/rdf-turtle/index.html to Working Draft.
RESOLVED: Move http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/tip/rdf-turtle/index.html to Working Draft. ←
15:27:25 <cygri> q?
Richard Cyganiak: q? ←
15:27:36 <cmatheus> thank you for that -- it's looking good
thank you for that -- it's looking good ←
15:28:18 <cmatheus> cygri: is this a good time to consider doing an editors' draft of the RDF Concepts doc
Richard Cyganiak: is this a good time to consider doing an editors' draft of the RDF Concepts doc ←
15:28:36 <ericP> Proposed text: Note that Turtle can be embedded in <script></script> or <pre></pre> elements. Embedding in a script element <script type="text/turtle"><CDATA[[ turtle hear ]]></script> will not be displayed by browsers, while <pre class="data"> turtle here </pre>. In the second example, you may use a class to alter display or to signify that it can be parsed as text/turtle.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Proposed text: Note that Turtle can be embedded in <script></script> or <pre></pre> elements. Embedding in a script element <script type="text/turtle"><CDATA[[ turtle hear ]]></script> will not be displayed by browsers, while <pre class="data"> turtle here </pre>. In the second example, you may use a class to alter display or to signify that it can be parsed as text/turtle. ←
15:28:37 <cmatheus> only some minor changes are needed but it is in a state to be considered as a working draft
only some minor changes are needed but it is in a state to be considered as a working draft ←
15:28:42 <PatH> surely though the graph terminology should be in Concepts, no?
Patrick Hayes: surely though the graph terminology should be in Concepts, no? ←
15:28:55 <cmatheus> davidwood: I agree it's time to move it to a working draft state
David Wood: I agree it's time to move it to a working draft state ←
15:29:07 <yvesr> PatH, indeed
Yves Raimond: PatH, indeed ←
15:29:15 <gavinc> ericP, that's not exactly accurate, but something like that yeah
Gavin Carothers: ericP, that's not exactly accurate, but something like that yeah ←
15:29:20 <cmatheus> I haven't looked at the document in about 10 days
I haven't looked at the document in about 10 days ←
15:29:49 <cmatheus> propose we make this a topic for the next meeting, July 20th.
propose we make this a topic for the next meeting, July 20th. ←
15:29:57 <PatH> july, maybe?
Patrick Hayes: july, maybe? ←
15:30:12 <cmatheus> look over the Concepts doc over the next fortnight, is that okay with you?
look over the Concepts doc over the next fortnight, is that okay with you? ←
15:30:13 <gavinc> ericP, pre.example script { display:block; } for example in the turtle spec
Gavin Carothers: ericP, pre.example script { display:block; } for example in the turtle spec ←
15:30:21 <cmatheus> cygri: yes that's great
Richard Cyganiak: yes that's great ←
15:30:31 <cmatheus> davidwood: I'll make sure it gets on the agenda
David Wood: I'll make sure it gets on the agenda ←
15:30:44 <ericP> gavinc, sounds good
Eric Prud'hommeaux: gavinc, sounds good ←
<cmatheus> Topic: Graphs
15:31:03 <cmatheus> davidwood: we've now left the tutrle draft and are moving onto graphs
David Wood: we've now left the tutrle draft and are moving onto graphs ←
15:31:20 <cmatheus> Lee, can you lead this discussion in absence of minutes?
Lee, can you lead this discussion in absence of minutes? ←
15:31:38 <cmatheus> LeeF: I'm sorry, I'm not prepared to lead this discussion today.
Lee Feigenbaum: I'm sorry, I'm not prepared to lead this discussion today. ←
15:31:52 <cmatheus> davidwood: okay.
David Wood: okay. ←
15:32:18 <cmatheus> Richard, it seems you were asked to create minutes from an earlier telecom. will you be able to do that task?
Richard, it seems you were asked to create minutes from an earlier telecom. will you be able to do that task? ←
15:32:39 <cmatheus> cygri: it completely fell off my radar so I didn't make minutes from it
Richard Cyganiak: it completely fell off my radar so I didn't make minutes from it ←
15:32:43 <ericP> q+
Eric Prud'hommeaux: q+ ←
15:32:47 <cmatheus> will do so first thing tomorrow
will do so first thing tomorrow ←
15:32:49 <mischat> i too think that the graph terminology should go into the concept document
Mischa Tuffield: i too think that the graph terminology should go into the concept document ←
15:33:04 <cmatheus> davidwood: please send a url to the minutes when they are ready
David Wood: please send a url to the minutes when they are ready ←
15:33:06 <davidwood> ack ericP
David Wood: ack ericP ←
15:33:14 <davidwood> ack \
David Wood: ack \ ←
15:33:17 <davidwood> :)
David Wood: :) ←
15:33:19 <gavinc> ack �
Gavin Carothers: ack � ←
15:33:24 <cmatheus> ericp: if you want something that takes minutes and dumps them as html you can pass them to me
Eric Prud'hommeaux: if you want something that takes minutes and dumps them as html you can pass them to me ←
15:33:38 <cmatheus> cygri: sounds good, I'll do that
Richard Cyganiak: sounds good, I'll do that ←
15:34:26 <cmatheus> davidwood: in absence of Lee today I suggest we go through things opened in June 29 telecom, unless someone has a better idea for today's time
David Wood: in absence of Lee today I suggest we go through things opened in June 29 telecom, unless someone has a better idea for today's time ←
15:34:44 <cmatheus> let's go to issue 14: whats a named graph and what should we call it?
let's go to ISSUE-14: whats a named graph and what should we call it? ←
15:34:56 <PatH> q+
Patrick Hayes: q+ ←
15:35:13 <cmatheus> Sandro has proposed the term gbox which we have consensus on
Sandro has proposed the term gbox which we have consensus on ←
15:35:20 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's noisy? ←
15:35:25 <Zakim> -zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: -zwu2 ←
15:35:30 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: PatHayes (15%), pchampin.a (25%), AndyS (25%), davidwood (45%)
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: PatHayes (15%), pchampin.a (25%), AndyS (25%), davidwood (45%) ←
15:35:33 <cmatheus> we now need to align this with SPARQL documents which are much further along
we now need to align this with SPARQL documents which are much further along ←
15:35:37 <davidwood> ack PatH
David Wood: ack PatH ←
15:35:56 <cmatheus> path: we're having discussions on email on this topic - not sure of the state they're in
Patrick Hayes: we're having discussions on email on this topic - not sure of the state they're in ←
15:36:17 <cmatheus> some progress is being made, not sure what you want to do now
some progress is being made, not sure what you want to do now ←
15:36:26 <Zakim> +??P22
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P22 ←
15:36:36 <cmatheus> davidwood: everyone seems to want to see minutes from that telecom.
David Wood: everyone seems to want to see minutes from that telecom. ←
15:36:46 <Zakim> +zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2 ←
15:36:58 <NickH> Zakim, ??P22 is me
Nicholas Humfrey: Zakim, ??P22 is me ←
15:36:58 <Zakim> +NickH; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +NickH; got it ←
15:37:05 <cmatheus> let's take a quick look down the issues list and see if there's one that we can make progress on
let's take a quick look down the issues list and see if there's one that we can make progress on ←
15:37:05 <cygri> ISSUE-38?
15:37:05 <trackbot> ISSUE-38 -- What new vocabulary should be added to RDF to talk about graphs? -- raised
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-38 -- What new vocabulary should be added to RDF to talk about graphs? -- raised ←
15:37:05 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/38
Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/38 ←
15:37:08 <NickH> Zakim, mute me
Nicholas Humfrey: Zakim, mute me ←
15:37:08 <Zakim> NickH should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: NickH should now be muted ←
<cmatheus> Topic: Issue 38
15:37:29 <cmatheus> leef: issue 38 hasn't been discussed yet so there's nothing preventing progress on it today
Gavin Carothers: ISSUE-38 hasn't been discussed yet so there's nothing preventing progress on it today ←
15:37:46 <gavinc> s/leef/gavinc
15:37:53 <mischat> list of issues FWIW http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/
Mischa Tuffield: list of issues FWIW http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/ ←
15:37:56 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
15:37:59 <cmatheus> davidwood: let's jump into 38 to see where we get
David Wood: let's jump into 38 to see where we get ←
15:38:09 <davidwood> ack cygri
David Wood: ack cygri ←
15:38:16 <cmatheus> some talk on this but it's a bit stale
some talk on this but it's a bit stale ←
15:38:53 <cmatheus> cygri: rdb2rdf working group is talking about whether we (rdf-wg) have a default graph and can we (rdb2rdf-wg) use that
Richard Cyganiak: rdb2rdf working group is talking about whether we (rdf-wg) have a default graph and can we (rdb2rdf-wg) use that ←
15:39:13 <AndyS> q+
Andy Seaborne: q+ ←
15:39:16 <mischat> i wonder if there is any consensus with regards to what the default graph is
Mischa Tuffield: i wonder if there is any consensus with regards to what the default graph is ←
15:39:17 <ericP> i'm afraid of a graph name for the default graph
Eric Prud'hommeaux: i'm afraid of a graph name for the default graph ←
15:39:20 <PatH> what is THE default graph?
Patrick Hayes: what is THE default graph? ←
15:39:25 <cmatheus> can we get from the rdf-wg some concept of a default graph that we can use in SPARQL?
can we get from the rdf-wg some concept of a default graph that we can use in SPARQL? ←
15:39:34 <ericP> PatH, it's MY default graph
Eric Prud'hommeaux: PatH, it's MY default graph ←
15:39:48 <cmatheus> davidwood: this seems to be conflating issue 29 and 38, but it's a good point, I agree with that
David Wood: this seems to be conflating ISSUE-29 and 38, but it's a good point, I agree with that ←
15:39:51 <PatH> There is no notion of default anything in the RDF model.
Patrick Hayes: There is no notion of default anything in the RDF model. ←
15:39:52 <davidwood> ack AndyS
David Wood: ack AndyS ←
15:40:21 <gavinc> Mmm, do DataSets need names too? /me ducks
Gavin Carothers: Mmm, do DataSets need names too? /me ducks ←
15:40:22 <ericP> file://localhost/~ ?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: file://localhost/~ ? ←
15:40:23 <cmatheus> andys: there isn't a default graph, as Pat's noted
Andy Seaborne: there isn't a default graph, as Pat's noted ←
15:40:32 <PatH> Ah. So default is a property of datasets whose value is a g-box.
Patrick Hayes: Ah. So default is a property of datasets whose value is a g-box. ←
15:40:49 <PatH> rdf:defaultGraphOf
Patrick Hayes: rdf:defaultGraphOf ←
15:40:55 <cmatheus> davidwood: you were vocal about the fact that not every default graph sits in a database
David Wood: you were vocal about the fact that not every default graph sits in a database ←
15:40:59 <gavinc> I think so PatH
Gavin Carothers: I think so PatH ←
15:41:31 <cmatheus> when the entire graph resides in a file the file's url is the default graph -- do you recall this discussion?
when the entire graph resides in a file the file's url is the graph -- do you recall this discussion? ←
15:41:34 <cmatheus> andys: no
Andy Seaborne: no ←
15:41:35 <davidwood> s/default//
15:42:00 <PatH> q+
Patrick Hayes: q+ ←
15:42:10 <davidwood> ack PatH
David Wood: ack PatH ←
15:42:12 <cmatheus> there isn't a web addressable name for the default graph because it's context dependent
there isn't a web addressable name for the default graph because it's context dependent ←
15:42:15 <ericP> there are lots of ambiguous URLs
Eric Prud'hommeaux: there are lots of ambiguous URLs ←
15:42:48 <cmatheus> path: it's a property of data sets whose value is a graph
Patrick Hayes: it's a property of data sets whose value is a graph ←
15:43:02 <cmatheus> fit's into the rdf model perfectly if its a property
fit's into the rdf model perfectly if its a property ←
15:43:31 <cmatheus> davidwood: I don't ink there's a problem with that. question is is it mandatory and if the location changes does the name change?
David Wood: I don't ink there's a problem with that. question is is it mandatory and if the location changes does the name change? ←
15:43:35 <AndyS> ericP, not in this sense (I hope!). file://localhost/.. hides context in localhost
Andy Seaborne: ericP, not in this sense (I hope!). file://localhost/.. hides context in localhost ←
15:44:00 <cmatheus> path: if the state has changed but the name stays the same there's an issue
Patrick Hayes: if the state has changed but the name stays the same there's an issue ←
15:44:04 <ericP> AndyS, true
Eric Prud'hommeaux: AndyS, true ←
15:44:32 <AndyS> ?? :datasetbase rdb2rdf:defaultGraph [ .... ]
Andy Seaborne: ?? :datasetbase rdb2rdf:defaultGraph [ .... ] ←
15:44:37 <cmatheus> davidwood: if you hash a serialization of a graph and you tweak some property of the graph you get a different hash
David Wood: if you hash a serialization of a graph and you tweak some property of the graph you get a different hash ←
15:44:45 <ericP> i'd expect that, if i were e.g. reading a test manifest and find n graphs asserted to be the default graph, i'd put them all into the default graph
Eric Prud'hommeaux: i'd expect that, if i were e.g. reading a test manifest and find n graphs asserted to be the default graph, i'd put them all into the default graph ←
15:44:50 <cmatheus> path: isn't that true of any hashable argument
Patrick Hayes: isn't that true of any hashable argument ←
15:44:55 <MacTed> q+
Ted Thibodeau: q+ ←
15:44:56 <cmatheus> davidwood: true
David Wood: true ←
15:44:57 <Zakim> +Vicki
Zakim IRC Bot: +Vicki ←
15:45:00 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me ←
15:45:00 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted ←
15:45:05 <AZ> zakim, I am Vicki
Antoine Zimmermann: zakim, I am Vicki ←
15:45:05 <Zakim> ok, AZ, I now associate you with Vicki
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, AZ, I now associate you with Vicki ←
15:45:14 <mischat> as it stands we can only sign serialisations anyway
Mischa Tuffield: as it stands we can only sign serialisations anyway ←
15:45:16 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
15:45:17 <gavinc> really? graphs are madness? ;)
Gavin Carothers: really? graphs are madness? ;) ←
15:45:26 <cmatheus> the naming is metadata that's outside of the graph -- get recursion problem of meta data, and meta-meta data and there lies madness
the naming is metadata that's outside of the graph -- get recursion problem of meta data, and meta-meta data and there lies madness ←
15:46:02 <cmatheus> path: things that are named by uri's are changeable but we want the name to stay the same -- this raises a lot of issues for rdf that I don't think we can solve
Patrick Hayes: things that are named by uri's are changeable but we want the name to stay the same -- this raises a lot of issues for rdf that I don't think we can solve ←
15:46:10 <cmatheus> this would get very difficult
this would get very difficult ←
15:46:11 <AndyS> ARQ uses <urn:x-arq:DefaultGraph> which is very poor modeling but very useful (as per rdb2rdf UC) GRAPH<urn:x-arq:DefaultGraph> {...} works :-)
Andy Seaborne: ARQ uses <urn:x-arq:DefaultGraph> which is very poor modeling but very useful (as per rdb2rdf UC) GRAPH<urn:x-arq:DefaultGraph> {...} works :-) ←
15:46:28 <cmatheus> davidwood: if you change a graph you 've got a copy of a graph that's a very different thing
David Wood: if you change a graph you 've got a copy of a graph that's a very different thing ←
15:46:36 <davidwood> ack MacTed
David Wood: ack MacTed ←
15:46:39 <cmatheus> I think I agree with you and it's not an issue
I think I agree with you and it's not an issue ←
15:46:46 <cygri> AndyS, that would work for us. We use rr:defaultGraph
Richard Cyganiak: AndyS, that would work for us. We use rr:defaultGraph ←
15:47:05 <cmatheus> MacTed: if we say once we name something that it never chances then we've got problems
Ted Thibodeau: if we say once we name something that it never chances then we've got problems ←
15:47:05 <AndyS> cygri, as property? As resource?
Andy Seaborne: cygri, as property? As resource? ←
15:47:17 <cmatheus> I've been the same person all my life but I've changed over time
I've been the same person all my life but I've changed over time ←
15:47:26 <PatH> Thi sis what we have the g-box/graph distinction for.
Patrick Hayes: Thi sis what we have the g-box/graph distinction for. ←
15:47:32 <cmatheus> the graph that describes me changes over time but it still describes me
the graph that describes me changes over time but it still describes me ←
15:47:48 <PatH> GRAPHS DO NOT CHANGE.
Patrick Hayes: GRAPHS DO NOT CHANGE. ←
15:47:49 <cygri> AndyS: <... some mapping rules ...> rr:targetGraph rr:defaultGraph.
Andy Seaborne: <... some mapping rules ...> rr:targetGraph rr:defaultGraph. [ Scribe Assist by Richard Cyganiak ] ←
15:47:54 <cmatheus> this is a problem that needs to be changed - immutability of descriptions needs to come into play soon
this is a problem that needs to be changed - immutability of descriptions needs to come into play soon ←
15:48:14 <cmatheus> need complete set of identifiers that nail down a document at a given point in time
need complete set of identifiers that nail down a document at a given point in time ←
15:48:17 <pchampin> q+
15:48:30 <cmatheus> I'm not comfortable I have gbox and gtext names right in my head yet
I'm not comfortable I have gbox and gtext names right in my head yet ←
15:48:48 <cmatheus> WHO'S TALKING PLEASE?
WHO'S TALKING PLEASE? ←
15:48:54 <PatH> Andy
Patrick Hayes: Andy ←
15:48:55 <cmatheus> thanks
thanks ←
15:49:37 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
15:49:45 <cmatheus> andys: in a perfect snapshot of the web (no changes, everything static) if you give a name to the graph which is a uri it needs to go to the same place
Andy Seaborne: in a perfect snapshot of the web (no changes, everything static) if you give a name to the graph which is a uri it needs to go to the same place ←
15:49:59 <PatH> Right, so default-graph is a property even in a static Web.
Patrick Hayes: Right, so default-graph is a property even in a static Web. ←
15:50:04 <cmatheus> that concept of the world doesn't work if you use a uri for the default graph
that concept of the world doesn't work if you use a uri for the default graph ←
15:50:13 <mischat> zakim, who is making noise ?
Mischa Tuffield: zakim, who is making noise ? ←
15:50:16 <davidwood> ack pchampin
David Wood: ack pchampin ←
15:50:26 <AZ> zakim, mute me
Antoine Zimmermann: zakim, mute me ←
15:50:26 <Zakim> Vicki should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Vicki should now be muted ←
15:50:49 <cmatheus> pchampin: I agree with pat about the default graph.
Pierre-Antoine Champin: I agree with pat about the default graph. ←
15:50:52 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
15:50:52 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
15:50:56 <AndyS> cygri - rr:defaultGraph names what resource? GET rr:defaultGraph --> ?
Andy Seaborne: cygri - rr:defaultGraph names what resource? GET rr:defaultGraph --> ? ←
15:50:59 <cmatheus> the problem comes from the misuse of the default graph
the problem comes from the misuse of the default graph ←
15:51:27 <cygri> AndyS, why presume that you can GET graph names?
Richard Cyganiak: AndyS, why presume that you can GET graph names? ←
15:51:32 <cmatheus> if you think of he default graph as a gbox then things work
if you think of he default graph as a gbox then things work ←
15:51:46 <cygri> AndyS, GET rr:defaultGraph, you get the R2RML vocabulary document
Richard Cyganiak: AndyS, GET rr:defaultGraph, you get the R2RML vocabulary document ←
15:51:52 <cmatheus> andys: it can be a gsnap and you can freeze everything
Andy Seaborne: it can be a gsnap and you can freeze everything ←
15:52:07 <cmatheus> davidwood: makes sense to me in a database context
David Wood: makes sense to me in a database context ←
15:52:22 <ericP> when do we care about naming the totality of a graph?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: when do we care about naming the totality of a graph? ←
15:52:25 <PatH> The issue, I think, is that if :Store is labile, then ( :store rdf:defaultGraphIs :graph .) can change truthvalue when :store is updated.
Patrick Hayes: The issue, I think, is that if :Store is labile, then ( :store rdf:defaultGraphIs :graph .) can change truthvalue when :store is updated. ←
15:52:26 <ericP> defining inferential closure
Eric Prud'hommeaux: defining inferential closure ←
15:52:27 <mischat> +1 to pchampin explanation, i wonder why the RDF WG are worrying about the default graphs, surely these are triplestore/sparql related. and as far as I can tell are vendor specific in the world of triplestore
Mischa Tuffield: +1 to pchampin explanation, i wonder why the RDF WG are worrying about the default graphs, surely these are triplestore/sparql related. and as far as I can tell are vendor specific in the world of triplestore ←
15:52:28 <cmatheus> not true for rdf users who never use an rdf store
not true for rdf users who never use an rdf store ←
15:52:28 <ericP> writing tests
Eric Prud'hommeaux: writing tests ←
15:52:45 <AndyS> cygri, conceptually, names can be resolved. I am asking if it is the name of a graph and so is GET <someURL> if it's http://
Andy Seaborne: cygri, conceptually, names can be resolved. I am asking if it is the name of a graph and so is GET <someURL> if it's http:// ←
15:52:47 <cmatheus> there's danger in using terms that don't apply to larger community
there's danger in using terms that don't apply to larger community ←
15:52:51 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
15:53:13 <cmatheus> andys: we must keep in mind that when we say graph sometimes we mean gbox, something gsnap
Andy Seaborne: we must keep in mind that when we say graph sometimes we mean gbox, something gsnap ←
15:53:23 <PatH> q+
Patrick Hayes: q+ ←
15:53:48 <cmatheus> in this case I think it means gbox
in this case I think it means gbox ←
15:53:59 <davidwood> ack cygri
David Wood: ack cygri ←
15:54:05 <mischat> i guess when you execute a sparql query on a sparql store, you are getting results on a g-snap
Mischa Tuffield: i guess when you execute a sparql query on a sparql store, you are getting results on a g-snap ←
15:54:18 <cmatheus> cygri: in reply to Andy from earlier...
Richard Cyganiak: in reply to Andy from earlier... ←
15:54:34 <cmatheus> I don't think there's an assumption that the graph name has to resolve to the graph
I don't think there's an assumption that the graph name has to resolve to the graph ←
15:54:44 <cmatheus> not sure what the basis is for such a presumption
not sure what the basis is for such a presumption ←
15:54:49 <PatH> RDG graph is (defined to be) a set, in the mathematical sense of "set". Mathematical sets don't change.
Patrick Hayes: RDG graph is (defined to be) a set, in the mathematical sense of "set". Mathematical sets don't change. ←
15:55:11 <cmatheus> from that point of view I don't see a problem with assigning a uri to a graph
from that point of view I don't see a problem with assigning a uri to a graph ←
15:55:14 <AndyS> q+
Andy Seaborne: q+ ←
15:55:27 <cygri> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC
Richard Cyganiak: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs-UC ←
15:55:28 <cmatheus> another point, maybe it's good to think back to use cases
another point, maybe it's good to think back to use cases ←
15:55:42 <cmatheus> there's a wiki page from months ago of really good use cases
there's a wiki page from months ago of really good use cases ←
15:55:55 <yvesr> +1 to think back of use cases
Yves Raimond: +1 to think back of use cases ←
15:55:58 <cmatheus> SPAQRL as it stands can address most of these use case
SPAQRL as it stands can address most of these use case ←
15:56:18 <pchampin> well, Richard, http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-http-rdf-update/ suggests that graph URIs *could*, in some situations, resolve to the content of the graph
Pierre-Antoine Champin: well, Richard, http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-http-rdf-update/ suggests that graph URIs *could*, in some situations, resolve to the content of the graph ←
15:56:24 <cmatheus> might be goog to see which use cases break when we use the SPARQL design
might be goog to see which use cases break when we use the SPARQL design ←
15:56:33 <davidwood> ack PatH
David Wood: ack PatH ←
15:56:35 <PatH> goog, but not good.
Patrick Hayes: goog, but not good. ←
15:56:45 <cmatheus> davidwood: this is fundamentally the argument -- theory vs. practice
David Wood: this is fundamentally the argument -- theory vs. practice ←
15:56:55 <cmatheus> path: I pretty much agree with Richard
Patrick Hayes: I pretty much agree with Richard ←
15:57:22 <AndyS> ack me
Andy Seaborne: ack me ←
15:57:44 <AndyS> (was just about default graph -- different from other naming UCs)
Andy Seaborne: (was just about default graph -- different from other naming UCs) ←
15:57:45 <cmatheus> however, if we introduce rdf terminology for the default graph then we can say something is the "default graph" -- then its truth value can change when the data stored is changed
however, if we introduce rdf terminology for the default graph then we can say something is the "default graph" -- then its truth value can change when the data stored is changed ←
15:57:53 <cmatheus> cygri; is this always the case?
cygri; isn't this always the case? ←
15:58:02 <cmatheus> path: no
Patrick Hayes: no ←
15:58:05 <yvesr> linked data changes a lot...
Yves Raimond: linked data changes a lot... ←
15:58:10 <yvesr> like any other data on the web
Yves Raimond: like any other data on the web ←
15:58:11 <pchampin> s/is this/isn't this/
15:58:18 <yvesr> look at wikipedia!
Yves Raimond: look at wikipedia! ←
15:58:24 <cmatheus> if these things are going to be changing their state very rapidly what's the point of creating them
if these things are going to be changing their state very rapidly what's the point of creating them ←
15:58:27 <Zakim> -tomayac
Zakim IRC Bot: -tomayac ←
15:58:51 <cmatheus> cygri: even if a triple is valid for only a few milliseconds that's fine if that's what you need
Richard Cyganiak: even if a triple is valid for only a few milliseconds that's fine if that's what you need ←
15:58:52 <AndyS> FROM <graph1> => one default graph ... elsewhere FROM <graph2> ==> different default graph ... even in a fully static world.
Andy Seaborne: FROM <graph1> => one default graph ... elsewhere FROM <graph2> ==> different default graph ... even in a fully static world. ←
15:58:58 <cmatheus> path: let me back off and agree
Patrick Hayes: let me back off and agree ←
15:59:20 <cmatheus> we shouldn't make it illegal but we should draw attention to it and warn people about it
we shouldn't make it illegal but we should draw attention to it and warn people about it ←
15:59:46 <cmatheus> triples that change quickly is different from the original intended use of RDF
triples that change quickly is different from the original intended use of RDF ←
16:00:07 <cmatheus> davidwood: five years ago rdf databases were read optimized
David Wood: five years ago rdf databases were read optimized ←
16:00:16 <cmatheus> we don't see that in the world now at all
we don't see that in the world now at all ←
16:00:24 <Zakim> -yvesr
Zakim IRC Bot: -yvesr ←
16:00:34 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
16:00:37 <AlexHall> we store a lot of system state in an rdf database, and it's subject to frequent change. we also don't tend to expose that mutable state outside our system.
Alex Hall: we store a lot of system state in an rdf database, and it's subject to frequent change. we also don't tend to expose that mutable state outside our system. ←
16:00:41 <cmatheus> there are massive deletes, rapid writes. this has been a sea change in the way people use rdf in the last few years
there are massive deletes, rapid writes. this has been a sea change in the way people use rdf in the last few years ←
16:00:51 <pchampin> q+
16:01:04 <cmatheus> path: okay, but if we do this and start using this terminology a lot of people are going to be surprised
Patrick Hayes: okay, but if we do this and start using this terminology a lot of people are going to be surprised ←
16:01:14 <mischat> we are current doing > 2000 queries/updates per second on our live sparql store
Mischa Tuffield: we are current doing > 2000 queries/updates per second on our live sparql store ←
16:01:20 <LeeF> I think it might be useful to have test cases that exhibit the difference between these two approaches to terminology -- what actually changes?
Lee Feigenbaum: I think it might be useful to have test cases that exhibit the difference between these two approaches to terminology -- what actually changes? ←
16:01:29 <Zakim> -NickH
Zakim IRC Bot: -NickH ←
16:01:59 <cmatheus> path: the gbox and gsnap concepts we have we defined and gsnaps are the mathematical graphs
Patrick Hayes: the gbox and gsnap concepts we have we defined and gsnaps are the mathematical graphs ←
16:02:14 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
16:02:21 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
16:02:22 <cmatheus> davidwood: we mean graph differently when we talk about gbox, gsnap and gtext
David Wood: we mean graph differently when we talk about gbox, gsnap and gtext ←
16:02:25 <pchampin> q-
16:02:39 <davidwood> ack cygri
David Wood: ack cygri ←
16:02:48 <cmatheus> cygri: I strongly agree
Richard Cyganiak: I strongly agree ←
16:03:11 <cmatheus> big problem here. have two conflicting uses of the word graph
big problem here. have two conflicting uses of the word graph ←
16:03:30 <cmatheus> rdf graph - an immutable set
rdf graph - an immutable set ←
16:03:47 <AndyS> q+
Andy Seaborne: q+ ←
16:03:55 <cmatheus> named graph in sparql - a graph is something mutable. can update it and it still has the same name
named graph in sparql - a graph is something mutable. can update it and it still has the same name ←
16:03:59 <LeeF> In the Anzo APIs, we use the term "named graph" for the mutable things
Lee Feigenbaum: In the Anzo APIs, we use the term "named graph" for the mutable things ←
16:04:03 <cmatheus> there's confusion in the two uses of the word graph
there's confusion in the two uses of the word graph ←
16:04:20 <davidwood> ack AndyS
David Wood: ack AndyS ←
16:04:23 <PatH> q+
Patrick Hayes: q+ ←
16:04:24 <iand> might be worth considering the sparql graph as being a container of triples
Ian Davis: might be worth considering the sparql graph as being a container of triples ←
16:04:37 <zwu2> I doubt end users care about these differences. they probably don't even realize the differences
Zhe Wu: I doubt end users care about these differences. they probably don't even realize the differences ←
16:04:40 <cmatheus> these are fundamentally different in what they mean and we need to do some about this
these are fundamentally different in what they mean and we need to do some about this ←
16:04:53 <cmatheus> andys; named graph are not behaving like the default graph
andys; named graph are not behaving like the default graph ←
16:05:27 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me ←
16:05:28 <cmatheus> the default graph is relative to the store and are unlike what uris give us
the default graph is relative to the store and are unlike what uris give us ←
16:05:29 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted ←
16:05:31 <iand> yes
16:05:37 <cmatheus> davidwood: I might challenge that
David Wood: I might challenge that ←
16:06:09 <cmatheus> iand - can you discuss your expectations on this
iand - can you discuss your expectations on this ←
16:06:09 <mischat> indeed AndyS and different stores have implemented their defaults graphs in different ways
Mischa Tuffield: indeed AndyS and different stores have implemented their defaults graphs in different ways ←
16:06:14 <PatH> hard to hear
Patrick Hayes: hard to hear ←
16:06:18 <cygri> AndyS: i think i don't fully agree. <foo> in my graph and in your graph can be different
Andy Seaborne: i think i don't fully agree. <foo> in my graph and in your graph can be different [ Scribe Assist by Richard Cyganiak ] ←
16:06:45 <cmatheus> iand: garble grable...
16:07:00 <AndyS> cygri - true can be different but consider completely static world
Andy Seaborne: cygri - true can be different but consider completely static world ←
16:07:02 <cmatheus> what does named graph identifier mean?
what does named graph identifier mean? ←
16:07:09 <cmatheus> a tag for the graph or an identified for the graph?
a tag for the graph or an identified for the graph? ←
16:07:21 <AndyS> ... default graph different - not same info
Andy Seaborne: ... default graph different - not same info ←
16:07:23 <AndyS> ... Example: FROM <graph1> => one default graph ... elsewhere FROM <graph2> => different default graph
Andy Seaborne: ... Example: FROM <graph1> => one default graph ... elsewhere FROM <graph2> => different default graph ←
16:07:28 <cmatheus> if it's an identifier then you should expect the same graph wherever you are
if it's an identifier then you should expect the same graph wherever you are ←
16:07:28 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
16:07:49 <cmatheus> if it's a tag you don't have the expectation that it is the same graph
if it's a tag you don't have the expectation that it is the same graph ←
16:07:52 <davidwood> ack PatH
David Wood: ack PatH ←
16:08:08 <davidwood> ack cygri
David Wood: ack cygri ←
16:08:29 <cmatheus> cygri: what Ian mentioned is different from the one I brought up earlier
Richard Cyganiak: what Ian mentioned is different from the one I brought up earlier ←
16:09:00 <cmatheus> regardless of whether you consider the iri in a named graph as an identifier or a tag there's still the fact the named graphs name things you can update
regardless of whether you consider the iri in a named graph as an identifier or a tag there's still the fact the named graphs name things you can update ←
16:09:07 <cmatheus> rdf graphs are not like that
rdf graphs are not like that ←
16:09:13 <AlexHall> problem is, the notion of "default graph" is always relative to some context
Alex Hall: problem is, the notion of "default graph" is always relative to some context ←
16:09:14 <AndyS> mischat - yes - dft graph as union of named graphs shows its different in different places as well.
Andy Seaborne: mischat - yes - dft graph as union of named graphs shows its different in different places as well. ←
16:09:34 <pchampin> but we can still name g-snaps and g-boxes, can't we??
Pierre-Antoine Champin: but we can still name g-snaps and g-boxes, can't we?? ←
16:09:35 <cmatheus> rdf graphs are more like gboxs and named graphs are more like gsnaps
rdf graphs are more like gboxs and named graphs are more like gsnaps ←
16:09:50 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
16:09:52 <AndyS> ... makes me nervous about it having a URI : property or class, not individual.
Andy Seaborne: ... makes me nervous about it having a URI : property or class, not individual. ←
16:09:54 <cmatheus> SPARQL doesn't make any assumptions about how you use the graph
SPARQL doesn't make any assumptions about how you use the graph ←
16:10:00 <pchampin> q+
16:10:25 <PatH> q+
Patrick Hayes: q+ ←
16:10:26 <cmatheus> I hear a number of people here pushing to the position where a global iri would be used in this name graph
I hear a number of people here pushing to the position where a global iri would be used in this name graph ←
16:10:53 <PatH> RIGHT
Patrick Hayes: RIGHT ←
16:11:01 <pchampin> ack me
Pierre-Antoine Champin: ack me ←
16:11:07 <cmatheus> davidwood:maybe we need to talk about naming gsnaps and gboxes in different ways
David Wood: maybe we need to talk about naming gsnaps and gboxes in different ways ←
16:11:13 <iand> q+ mirroring data and portability of sparql (will type not use phone)
Ian Davis: q+ mirroring data and portability of sparql (will type not use phone) ←
16:11:23 <iand> q+ to ask about mirroring data and portability of sparql (will type not use phone)
Ian Davis: q+ to ask about mirroring data and portability of sparql (will type not use phone) ←
16:11:44 <cmatheus> pchampin: it sounded like Richard was claiming we could only name one kind of graph but I think we can name both
Pierre-Antoine Champin: it sounded like Richard was claiming we could only name one kind of graph but I think we can name both ←
16:11:59 <cmatheus> but we need to keep these notion separate
but we need to keep these notion separate ←
16:12:08 <mischat> i would like the term graph used in sparql as is, as it is used in practice, and for the RDF WG to use less ambiguous terms as spec'ed out in our previous conversation re: g-*. This discussion should probably be kept to the concepts document, and in any quad based serialisation
Mischa Tuffield: i would like the term graph used in sparql as is, as it is used in practice, and for the RDF WG to use less ambiguous terms as spec'ed out in our previous conversation re: g-*. This discussion should probably be kept to the concepts document, and in any quad based serialisation ←
16:12:15 <cmatheus> I agree that sparql doesn't make an assumption about the use of iri
I agree that sparql doesn't make an assumption about the use of iri ←
16:12:34 <cmatheus> but if you have control of an iri you can make the graph available when getting the iri
but if you have control of an iri you can make the graph available when getting the iri ←
16:13:03 <cmatheus> in sparql the iri is homogenous to a resource in the query
in sparql the iri is homogenous to a resource in the query ←
16:13:48 <cmatheus> we are naming graphs with a resource not an iri
we are naming graphs with a resource not an iri ←
16:14:05 <cmatheus> MacTed: you can name anything with a uri
Ted Thibodeau: you can name anything with a uri ←
16:14:07 <gavinc> "A "g-snap" as an idealized snapshot of a g-box; "
Gavin Carothers: "A "g-snap" as an idealized snapshot of a g-box; " ←
16:14:11 <cmatheus> davidwood: but do you have to?
David Wood: but do you have to? ←
16:14:16 <davidwood> ack PatH
David Wood: ack PatH ←
16:14:32 <pchampin> you can name a g-snap with a literal (the corresponding g-text)
Pierre-Antoine Champin: you can name a g-snap with a literal (the corresponding g-text) ←
16:14:33 <cmatheus> path: this discussion could have taken place in any context having to do with computer science
Patrick Hayes: this discussion could have taken place in any context having to do with computer science ←
16:14:45 <cmatheus> we have a dilema
we have a dilema ←
16:14:57 <cmatheus> 1st - I agree you can name anything with an iri
1st - I agree you can name anything with an iri ←
16:15:00 <iand> are we just saying that there is a property sparql:graph that has a domain of sparql:Dataset and range of rdf:gsnap
Ian Davis: are we just saying that there is a property sparql:graph that has a domain of sparql:Dataset and range of rdf:gsnap ←
16:15:06 <gavinc> Name g-boxes, if you want to name a specific g-snap make a new damn g-box and never change it's contents
Gavin Carothers: Name g-boxes, if you want to name a specific g-snap make a new damn g-box and never change it's contents ←
16:15:16 <cmatheus> most people will use iri's to refer to graphs and others with use them for gboxes
most people will use iri's to refer to graphs and others with use them for gboxes ←
16:15:18 <MacTed> the issue seems to be -- "how do we change 'named graph' everywhere to 'named g-box'?"
Ted Thibodeau: the issue seems to be -- "how do we change 'named graph' everywhere to 'named g-box'?" ←
16:15:33 <cmatheus> can't have different conventions for naming the two - people won't use it
can't have different conventions for naming the two - people won't use it ←
16:15:48 <cmatheus> people will want to use same name for the two types of graph
people will want to use same name for the two types of graph ←
16:15:49 <Zakim> -iand
Zakim IRC Bot: -iand ←
16:15:49 <MacTed> actually... currently "named graph" is used for both, g-snaps and g-boxes
Ted Thibodeau: actually... currently "named graph" is used for both, g-snaps and g-boxes ←
16:16:00 <cmatheus> the ambiguity of naming is going to be with us in the real world
the ambiguity of naming is going to be with us in the real world ←
16:16:18 <cmatheus> next thought - maybe we can have a different type of property
next thought - maybe we can have a different type of property ←
16:16:21 <davidwood> PatH: Ambiguity of naming will be with us whether we like it or not.
Patrick Hayes: Ambiguity of naming will be with us whether we like it or not. [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ] ←
16:16:22 <Zakim> +iand
Zakim IRC Bot: +iand ←
16:16:37 <cmatheus> some apply to the state some apply to the object transcending the state
some apply to the state some apply to the object transcending the state ←
16:17:03 <pchampin> so you mean that property rdf:numberOfTriples would actually mean "number of triples in the current state of that g-box" ?
Pierre-Antoine Champin: so you mean that property rdf:numberOfTriples would actually mean "number of triples in the current state of that g-box" ? ←
16:17:04 <cmatheus> having coercion for the property isn't going to work
having coercion for the property isn't going to work ←
16:17:21 <cmatheus> take rdf:type -- we would have to have two different types, one for object one for state
take rdf:type -- we would have to have two different types, one for object one for state ←
16:17:27 <iand> +1 to macted's suggestion of changing "named graph" to "named gbox"
Ian Davis: +1 to macted's suggestion of changing "named graph" to "named gbox" ←
16:17:38 <gavinc> "we should learn to cope with ambiguity in URIs"
Gavin Carothers: "we should learn to cope with ambiguity in URIs" ←
16:17:40 <cmatheus> if a name is used ambiguously there's nothing we can do about it
if a name is used ambiguously there's nothing we can do about it ←
16:17:49 <PatH> gavinc :-)
Patrick Hayes: gavinc :-) ←
16:18:24 <mischat> jeni blogged about this stuff yesterday, worth a read http://www.jenitennison.com/blog/node/159
Mischa Tuffield: jeni blogged about this stuff yesterday, worth a read http://www.jenitennison.com/blog/node/159 ←
16:18:43 <cmatheus> cmatheus: I need to end scribing here, sorry
Christopher Matheus: I need to end scribing here, sorry ←
16:18:48 <Zakim> -cygri
Zakim IRC Bot: -cygri ←
16:18:54 <cmatheus> I'll wait until later tomorrow to edit the minutes
I'll wait until later tomorrow to edit the minutes ←
16:18:55 <Zakim> -MacTed
Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed ←
16:18:57 <Zakim> -zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: -zwu2 ←
16:18:58 <Zakim> -Scott_Bauer
Zakim IRC Bot: -Scott_Bauer ←
16:19:01 <mbrunati> hi guys
Matteo Brunati: hi guys ←
16:19:04 <Zakim> -AZ
Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ ←
16:19:05 <Zakim> -mbrunati
Zakim IRC Bot: -mbrunati ←
16:19:06 <Zakim> -AlexHall
Zakim IRC Bot: -AlexHall ←
16:19:11 <Zakim> -mischat_
Zakim IRC Bot: -mischat_ ←
16:19:17 <Zakim> -AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS ←
16:19:19 <Zakim> -cmatheus
Zakim IRC Bot: -cmatheus ←
16:19:21 <Zakim> -gavinc
Zakim IRC Bot: -gavinc ←
16:19:26 <Zakim> -LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: -LeeF ←
16:19:38 <PatH> Current best guess for terminology is 'graph resource' for anything mutable that emits graph representations; 'graph' for snaps, and 'graph representation' for g-texts. THis fits with the REST terminology and allows the use of 'graph' for them all when people are being sloppy.
Patrick Hayes: Current best guess for terminology is 'graph resource' for anything mutable that emits graph representations; 'graph' for snaps, and 'graph representation' for g-texts. THis fits with the REST terminology and allows the use of 'graph' for them all when people are being sloppy. ←
16:19:40 <gavinc> Process question.... how do we publish a WD of Turtle? :D
Gavin Carothers: Process question.... how do we publish a WD of Turtle? :D ←
16:20:05 <davidwood> Ask Sandro :)
David Wood: Ask Sandro :) ←
16:20:14 <gavinc> He said not to if we were using Respec ;)
Gavin Carothers: He said not to if we were using Respec ;) ←
16:20:23 <Zakim> -PatHayes
Zakim IRC Bot: -PatHayes ←
16:20:45 <pchampin> ...but we will however ;)
Pierre-Antoine Champin: ...but we will however ;) ←
16:20:49 <AndyS> +1 to PatH (I think ...)
Andy Seaborne: +1 to PatH (I think ...) ←
16:21:12 <gavinc> +1 to PatH
Gavin Carothers: +1 to PatH ←
16:21:21 <mischat> does the 'graph' for snaps match with the GRAPH verb in sparql
Mischa Tuffield: does the 'graph' for snaps match with the GRAPH verb in sparql ←
16:21:37 <mischat> i guess it does when thinking about queries, not sure when thinking about updates
Mischa Tuffield: i guess it does when thinking about queries, not sure when thinking about updates ←
16:22:18 <AndyS> query usage and update usage are different ... query world is static so g-box/g-snap binding is fixed
Andy Seaborne: query usage and update usage are different ... query world is static so g-box/g-snap binding is fixed ←
16:22:26 <Zakim> -iand
Zakim IRC Bot: -iand ←
16:23:10 <AndyS> SPARQL 1.0 does not fix GRAPH uri (much careful wording) and the wording is not designed for SPARQL 1.1 update
Andy Seaborne: SPARQL 1.0 does not fix GRAPH uri (much careful wording) and the wording is not designed for SPARQL 1.1 update ←
16:23:12 <gavinc> the GRAPH verb means a graph resource in UPDATE and a graph in SELECT/CONSTRUCT
Gavin Carothers: the GRAPH verb means a graph resource in UPDATE and a graph in SELECT/CONSTRUCT ←
16:23:18 <gavinc> ?
Gavin Carothers: ? ←
16:24:29 <AndyS> Best rewording I can make is SPARQL 1.0 "associates" a URI with a g-snap. Different apps associate differently (name of web location for data, unique nema for action of reading).
Andy Seaborne: Best rewording I can make is SPARQL 1.0 "associates" a URI with a g-snap. Different apps associate differently (name of web location for data, unique nema for action of reading). ←
16:24:47 <gavinc> Anyway, be around later today and will tag a revision for the WD for the Turtle document
Gavin Carothers: Anyway, be around later today and will tag a revision for the WD for the Turtle document ←
16:25:18 <AndyS> In update there is also (URI, g-box) pair which is definitely a g-box in local store.
Andy Seaborne: In update there is also (URI, g-box) pair which is definitely a g-box in local store. ←
16:25:26 <davidwood> gavinc, see http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/ReSpec.js/documentation.html#configuration to change the specStatus to WD
David Wood: gavinc, see http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/ReSpec.js/documentation.html#configuration to change the specStatus to WD ←
16:25:28 <pchampin> agreed
Pierre-Antoine Champin: agreed ←
16:26:20 <AndyS> 'cos if you change it, you see the change but someone else's store does not change (or generally people get upset :-)
Andy Seaborne: 'cos if you change it, you see the change but someone else's store does not change (or generally people get upset :-) ←
16:26:38 <davidwood> Zakim, who is here?
David Wood: Zakim, who is here? ←
16:26:46 <gavinc> Yeah, know how to do that David, what to do AFTER that is somewhat confusing ;)
Gavin Carothers: Yeah, know how to do that David, what to do AFTER that is somewhat confusing ;) ←
16:26:58 <gavinc> Will have a tagged HTML document by the end of today
Gavin Carothers: Will have a tagged HTML document by the end of today ←
16:27:09 <davidwood> gavinc, is there anything else to do? I think it will auto-update the header.
David Wood: gavinc, is there anything else to do? I think it will auto-update the header. ←
16:27:31 <davidwood> "The specStatus is used to pick the base style sheet, as well as to configure various parts of the specification's header and Status of this Document. "
David Wood: "The specStatus is used to pick the base style sheet, as well as to configure various parts of the specification's header and Status of this Document. " ←
16:27:52 <AndyS> gavinc, when you find out how to pub respec, coudl yo ulet me know as I have a respec note to do. There is someway to get pure HTML out apparently.
Andy Seaborne: gavinc, when you find out how to pub respec, coudl yo ulet me know as I have a respec note to do. There is someway to get pure HTML out apparently. ←
16:28:07 <gavinc> Yeah, that will just leave it in HG and using javascript
Gavin Carothers: Yeah, that will just leave it in HG and using javascript ←
16:28:16 <gavinc> step 2 is get some XHTML to publish
Gavin Carothers: step 2 is get some XHTML to publish ←
16:29:57 <gavinc> it's First Public Working Draft isn't it?
Gavin Carothers: it's First Public Working Draft isn't it? ←
16:30:04 <gavinc> some process wonk around?
Gavin Carothers: some process wonk around? ←
16:30:10 <davidwood> Yes, I suppose so
David Wood: Yes, I suppose so ←
16:30:40 <Zakim> -davidwood
Zakim IRC Bot: -davidwood ←
16:31:07 <davidwood> gavinc, I'm still reading the Respec page...
David Wood: gavinc, I'm still reading the Respec page... ←
16:31:40 <davidwood> RRSAgent, draft minutes
David Wood: RRSAgent, draft minutes ←
16:31:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/06-rdf-wg-minutes.html davidwood
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/06-rdf-wg-minutes.html davidwood ←
16:31:48 <gavinc> sandro, you around?
Gavin Carothers: sandro, you around? ←
16:32:11 <davidwood> gavinc, http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/ReSpec.js/documentation.html#saving-the-generated-specification
David Wood: gavinc, http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/ReSpec.js/documentation.html#saving-the-generated-specification ←
16:32:37 <davidwood> "The solution that is used here is that you hit the Ctrl+Shift+Alt+S key combination (this is subject to change until we agree on an option we all like). That will show a menu offering to either "Save as HTML", "Save as HTML (Source)", "Save as XHTML", or "Save as XHTML (Source)". You can hit Esc to hide it."
David Wood: "The solution that is used here is that you hit the Ctrl+Shift+Alt+S key combination (this is subject to change until we agree on an option we all like). That will show a menu offering to either "Save as HTML", "Save as HTML (Source)", "Save as XHTML", or "Save as XHTML (Source)". You can hit Esc to hide it." ←
16:32:44 <gavinc> Yeah
Gavin Carothers: Yeah ←
16:33:06 <davidwood> Then I suppose you put it into the WG's mercurial repo.
David Wood: Then I suppose you put it into the WG's mercurial repo. ←
16:33:21 <gavinc> mmmm
Gavin Carothers: mmmm ←
16:34:43 <davidwood> Do you have the details for that? There was an email to the list...
David Wood: Do you have the details for that? There was an email to the list... ←
16:34:54 <gavinc> Yeah, yeah
Gavin Carothers: Yeah, yeah ←
16:35:07 <gavinc> it's where the document is living
Gavin Carothers: it's where the document is living ←
16:35:43 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, pchampin, in SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
Zakim IRC Bot: disconnecting the lone participant, pchampin, in SW_RDFWG()11:00AM ←
16:35:44 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended ←
16:35:50 <Zakim> ... PatHayes, cygri, +33.4.72.69.aacc, NickH, AZ
Zakim IRC Bot: ... PatHayes, cygri, +33.4.72.69.aacc, NickH, AZ ←
16:36:47 <davidwood> I think Sandro is happy to deal with publishing HTML to a URI :)
David Wood: I think Sandro is happy to deal with publishing HTML to a URI :) ←
16:37:44 <gavinc> the short name is Turtle yes?
Gavin Carothers: the short name is Turtle yes? ←
16:37:52 <davidwood> Yes
David Wood: Yes ←
16:38:38 <davidwood> I suggest saving the document from Respc to XHTML, adding the saved file into the WG's hg repo and telling Sandro he needs to publish it to the appropriate URL. Does that work for you?
David Wood: I suggest saving the document from Respc to XHTML, adding the saved file into the WG's hg repo and telling Sandro he needs to publish it to the appropriate URL. Does that work for you? ←
16:38:49 <gavinc> yep yep
Gavin Carothers: yep yep ←
16:38:55 <gavinc> I think :D
Gavin Carothers: I think :D ←
16:39:16 <davidwood> Richard's message with hg instructions is at: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Jun/0012.html
David Wood: Richard's message with hg instructions is at: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Jun/0012.html ←
16:39:24 <gavinc> Yeah, I have hg all working
Gavin Carothers: Yeah, I have hg all working ←
16:39:28 <davidwood> oh, good
David Wood: oh, good ←
16:39:29 <gavinc> that's how we've been editing
Gavin Carothers: that's how we've been editing ←
16:39:38 <gavinc> and publishing EDs
Gavin Carothers: and publishing EDs ←
16:40:10 <davidwood> We'll all learn something about this as you do it. Isn't it nice to be first? :)
David Wood: We'll all learn something about this as you do it. Isn't it nice to be first? :) ←
16:41:52 <gavinc> Oh
Gavin Carothers: Oh ←
16:41:53 <gavinc> damn
Gavin Carothers: damn ←
16:42:01 <gavinc> still have to fix biblio DB
Gavin Carothers: still have to fix biblio DB ←
16:43:57 <davidwood> oops
David Wood: oops ←
17:01:52 <gavinc> Victory! http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/Turtle-FPWD/rdf-turtle/index.html
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Gavin Carothers: Victory! http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/Turtle-FPWD/rdf-turtle/index.html ←
17:02:55 <davidwood> gavinc, Thanks!
David Wood: gavinc, Thanks! ←
17:03:10 <gavinc> now to save the XHTML
Gavin Carothers: now to save the XHTML ←
17:07:55 <gavinc> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/built-xhtml/FPWD.html built XHTML
Gavin Carothers: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-turtle/built-xhtml/FPWD.html built XHTML ←
17:08:23 <ericP> gavinc, will you be online later to chat about turtle?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: gavinc, will you be online later to chat about turtle? ←
17:08:35 <ericP> (editing details)
Eric Prud'hommeaux: (editing details) ←
17:08:39 <gavinc> Yes, taking kids to train park, back in the afternoon
Gavin Carothers: Yes, taking kids to train park, back in the afternoon ←
17:08:43 <ericP> cool
Eric Prud'hommeaux: cool ←
17:09:40 <ericP> seen the train museum one stop north of san jose on caltrain?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: seen the train museum one stop north of san jose on caltrain? ←
17:10:03 <gavinc> Yep!
Gavin Carothers: Yep! ←
17:17:16 <ericP> i always try to make connections through there. fabulously interesting and low-key museum
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Eric Prud'hommeaux: i always try to make connections through there. fabulously interesting and low-key museum ←
17:18:26 <ericP> gavinc, should i pester you or ralph about topquadrant tech for embedding sparql query results in html?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: gavinc, should i pester you or ralph about topquadrant tech for embedding sparql query results in html? ←
20:54:21 <ericP> gavinc, back?
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Eric Prud'hommeaux: gavinc, back? ←
21:46:01 <gavinc> Yes
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Gavin Carothers: Yes ←
21:46:03 <gavinc> ;)
Gavin Carothers: ;) ←
21:46:30 <gavinc> You here?
Gavin Carothers: You here? ←
21:51:02 <gavinc> ericP, ping!
Gavin Carothers: ericP, ping! ←
21:51:42 <ericP> heya
Eric Prud'hommeaux: heya ←
21:51:57 <ericP> sounds like if we want to fix stuff in turtle, we should do it tonight
Eric Prud'hommeaux: sounds like if we want to fix stuff in turtle, we should do it tonight ←
21:52:31 <gavinc> at least before a FPWD, yeah, ... though there is one checked in now ;)
Gavin Carothers: at least before a FPWD, yeah, ... though there is one checked in now ;) ←
21:53:59 <gavinc> One current oddity is that parts of the document (mostly the abstract at this point) talk about how compatable with N3 Turtle is, where as the compared to N3 section now (correctly?) points out that while N3 was the largest input into Turtle that compatibility isn't really a goal of Turtle any longer
Gavin Carothers: One current oddity is that parts of the document (mostly the abstract at this point) talk about how compatable with N3 Turtle is, where as the compared to N3 section now (correctly?) points out that while N3 was the largest input into Turtle that compatibility isn't really a goal of Turtle any longer ←
21:54:41 <gavinc> The table for the BNF is still a bit of a mess, never did get yacker to generate what you had from before (Maybe it was hand done after yacker?)
Gavin Carothers: The table for the BNF is still a bit of a mess, never did get yacker to generate what you had from before (Maybe it was hand done after yacker?) ←
21:56:20 <gavinc> Also still have the are we defining N-Triples as an appendix inside Turtle or as a separate document
Gavin Carothers: Also still have the are we defining N-Triples as an appendix inside Turtle or as a separate document ←
22:12:25 <ericP> did it
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Eric Prud'hommeaux: did it ←
22:12:55 <ericP> did the document get moved to a new place? or do we still edit what we've been editing?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: did the document get moved to a new place? or do we still edit what we've been editing? ←
22:13:07 <gavinc> same place
Gavin Carothers: same place ←
22:15:26 <ericP> cool
Eric Prud'hommeaux: cool ←
22:16:37 <gavinc> the one tagged for the CfC is http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/Turtle-FPWD/rdf-turtle/index.html but the tip is back to an ED for more editing
Gavin Carothers: the one tagged for the CfC is http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/Turtle-FPWD/rdf-turtle/index.html but the tip is back to an ED for more editing ←
22:28:03 <ericP> should i dink with the grammar tonight?
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Eric Prud'hommeaux: should i dink with the grammar tonight? ←
22:31:45 <gavinc> Yeah, I think the HTML needs help
Gavin Carothers: Yeah, I think the HTML needs help ←
22:32:03 <gavinc> I didn't know if I was missing something in how to get yacker to what you had it do
Gavin Carothers: I didn't know if I was missing something in how to get yacker to what you had it do ←
22:32:14 <gavinc> or if all the numbering and terminal spliting was done by hand
Gavin Carothers: or if all the numbering and terminal spliting was done by hand ←
22:32:53 <gavinc> Did go so far as to spend about 3 hours seeing if I could parse the EBNF directly in javascript and output the HTML that way ;)
Gavin Carothers: Did go so far as to spend about 3 hours seeing if I could parse the EBNF directly in javascript and output the HTML that way ;) ←
22:32:57 <gavinc> then I thought better of it
Gavin Carothers: then I thought better of it ←
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