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14:58:52 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/03/23-rdf-wg-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/03/23-rdf-wg-irc ←
14:58:54 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
14:58:54 <JeremyCarroll> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.23
14:58:56 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394 ←
14:58:56 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes ←
14:58:57 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:58:57 <trackbot> Date: 23 March 2011
14:59:50 <davidwood> Chair: David Wood
14:59:51 <LeeF> zakim, this wil be rdf-wg
Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, this wil be rdf-wg ←
14:59:51 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this wil be rdf-wg', LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'this wil be rdf-wg', LeeF ←
14:59:54 <LeeF> zakim, this will be rdf-wg
Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, this will be rdf-wg ←
14:59:54 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, LeeF ←
14:59:57 <LeeF> zakim, this will be rdfwg
Lee Feigenbaum: zakim, this will be rdfwg ←
14:59:57 <Zakim> ok, LeeF, I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM already started
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, LeeF, I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM already started ←
14:59:57 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby
Zakim IRC Bot: +OlivierCorby ←
14:59:59 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
15:00:00 <Zakim> + +1.415.369.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.415.369.aabb ←
15:00:03 <davidwood> Scribe: Jeremy Carroll
(Scribe set to Jeremy Carroll)
15:00:12 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, aabb is me
Zakim, aabb is me ←
15:00:12 <Zakim> +JeremyCarroll; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +JeremyCarroll; got it ←
15:00:13 <davidwood> Scribenick: JeremyCarroll
15:00:13 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller] ←
15:00:24 <davidwood> zakim, who is here?
David Wood: zakim, who is here? ←
15:00:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see Tony, David, Sandro, LeeF, +1.408.642.aaaa, OlivierCorby, JeremyCarroll
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Tony, David, Sandro, LeeF, +1.408.642.aaaa, OlivierCorby, JeremyCarroll ←
15:00:28 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
15:00:34 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaler i sme
Andy Seaborne: zakim, IPCaler i sme ←
15:00:34 <Zakim> I don't understand 'IPCaler i sme', AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'IPCaler i sme', AndyS ←
15:00:42 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, IPCaller is me ←
15:00:42 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it ←
15:00:50 <Zakim> +??P13
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P13 ←
15:00:52 <Zakim> +??P17
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P17 ←
15:00:54 <Zakim> +??P14
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P14 ←
15:00:59 <manu1> zakim, I am ??P14
Manu Sporny: zakim, I am ??P14 ←
15:00:59 <Zakim> +manu1; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +manu1; got it ←
15:01:11 <mischat_> zakim, ??P13 is me
Mischa Tuffield: zakim, ??P13 is me ←
15:01:13 <Zakim> +mischat_; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +mischat_; got it ←
15:01:18 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aacc
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.443.212.aacc ←
15:01:28 <Zakim> +tomayac_
Zakim IRC Bot: +tomayac_ ←
15:01:29 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
15:01:30 <Zakim> sorry, zwu2, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, zwu2, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you ←
15:01:37 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, mute me
Zakim, mute me ←
15:01:37 <Zakim> sorry, JeremyCarroll, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, JeremyCarroll, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you ←
15:01:38 <AlexHall> zakim, �01+1.443.212.aacc� is me
Alex Hall: zakim, �01+1.443.212.aacc� is me ←
15:01:39 <Zakim> sorry, AlexHall, I do not recognize a party named '�01+1.443.212.aacc�'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, AlexHall, I do not recognize a party named '�01+1.443.212.aacc�' ←
15:01:50 <Zakim> +PatH
Zakim IRC Bot: +PatH ←
15:01:51 <Zakim> -??P17
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P17 ←
15:01:57 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, JeremyCarroll is now JeremyCarroll
Zakim, JeremyCarroll is now JeremyCarroll ←
15:01:57 <Zakim> I don't understand 'JeremyCarroll is now JeremyCarroll', JeremyCarroll
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'JeremyCarroll is now JeremyCarroll', JeremyCarroll ←
15:02:05 <mischat> zakim, mute me
Mischa Tuffield: zakim, mute me ←
15:02:05 <Zakim> mischat_ should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: mischat_ should now be muted ←
15:02:13 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, mute JeremyCarroll
Zakim, mute JeremyCarroll ←
15:02:13 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: JeremyCarroll should now be muted ←
15:02:21 <Zakim> + +33.4.67.92.aadd
Zakim IRC Bot: + +33.4.67.92.aadd ←
15:02:37 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip ←
15:02:39 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made ←
15:02:41 <Zakim> +Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan ←
15:02:47 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?
Andy Seaborne: zakim, who is on the phone? ←
15:02:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see Tony, David, Sandro, LeeF, +1.408.642.aaaa, OlivierCorby, JeremyCarroll (muted), AndyS, mischat_ (muted), manu1, +1.443.212.aacc, tomayac_, PatH,
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Tony, David, Sandro, LeeF, +1.408.642.aaaa, OlivierCorby, JeremyCarroll (muted), AndyS, mischat_ (muted), manu1, +1.443.212.aacc, tomayac_, PatH, ←
15:02:57 <JFB> Zakim, +33.4.67.92.aadd is me
Jean-François Baget: Zakim, +33.4.67.92.aadd is me ←
15:02:58 <Zakim> ... +33.4.67.92.aadd, Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: ... +33.4.67.92.aadd, Ivan ←
15:03:07 <zwu2> zakim, +1.408.642.aaaa is me
Zhe Wu: zakim, +1.408.642.aaaa is me ←
15:03:12 <Zakim> +JFB; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +JFB; got it ←
15:03:28 <Zakim> +zwu2; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2; got it ←
15:03:28 <JFB> zakim, mute me
Jean-François Baget: zakim, mute me ←
15:03:34 <zwu2> zakim, mute me
15:03:36 <Zakim> +[Sophia]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[Sophia] ←
15:03:44 <Zakim> +??P17
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P17 ←
15:03:48 <Zakim> JFB should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: JFB should now be muted ←
15:03:50 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: zwu2 should now be muted ←
15:03:53 <davidwood> zakim, who is here?
David Wood: zakim, who is here? ←
15:03:56 <mischat> zakim, unmute me
Mischa Tuffield: zakim, unmute me ←
15:03:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see Tony, David, Sandro, LeeF, zwu2 (muted), OlivierCorby, JeremyCarroll (muted), AndyS, mischat_ (muted), manu1, +1.443.212.aacc, tomayac_, PatH, JFB (muted), Ivan,
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Tony, David, Sandro, LeeF, zwu2 (muted), OlivierCorby, JeremyCarroll (muted), AndyS, mischat_ (muted), manu1, +1.443.212.aacc, tomayac_, PatH, JFB (muted), Ivan, ←
15:03:59 <AlexHall> zakim, 1.443.212.aacc is me
Alex Hall: zakim, 1.443.212.aacc is me ←
15:04:01 <mischat> zakim, unmute me
Mischa Tuffield: zakim, unmute me ←
15:04:04 <Zakim> ... [Sophia], ??P17
Zakim IRC Bot: ... [Sophia], ??P17 ←
15:04:06 <FabGandon> zakim, [Sophia] is me
Fabien Gandon: zakim, [Sophia] is me ←
15:04:10 <Zakim> On the phone I see Tony, David, Sandro, LeeF, zwu2 (muted), OlivierCorby, JeremyCarroll (muted), AndyS, mischat_ (muted), manu1, +1.443.212.aacc, tomayac_, PatH, JFB (muted), Ivan,
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Tony, David, Sandro, LeeF, zwu2 (muted), OlivierCorby, JeremyCarroll (muted), AndyS, mischat_ (muted), manu1, +1.443.212.aacc, tomayac_, PatH, JFB (muted), Ivan, ←
15:04:19 <Zakim> ... [Sophia], ??P17
Zakim IRC Bot: ... [Sophia], ??P17 ←
15:04:20 <manu1> zakim, who is making noise?
Manu Sporny: zakim, who is making noise? ←
15:04:25 <Zakim> sorry, AlexHall, I do not recognize a party named '1.443.212.aacc'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, AlexHall, I do not recognize a party named '1.443.212.aacc' ←
15:04:29 <Zakim> mischat_ should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: mischat_ should no longer be muted ←
15:04:39 <Zakim> +FabGandon; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +FabGandon; got it ←
15:04:44 <mischat> zakim, mute me
Mischa Tuffield: zakim, mute me ←
15:04:56 <davidwood> zakim, who is speaking?
David Wood: zakim, who is speaking? ←
15:05:06 <Zakim> manu1, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: mischat_ (58%), ??P17 (89%)
Zakim IRC Bot: manu1, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: mischat_ (58%), ??P17 (89%) ←
15:05:08 <Zakim> +nunolopes
Zakim IRC Bot: +nunolopes ←
15:05:14 <Zakim> mischat_ should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: mischat_ should now be muted ←
15:05:23 <manu1> zakim, mute ??P17
Manu Sporny: zakim, mute ??P17 ←
15:05:26 <cygri> zakim, nunolopes is me
Richard Cyganiak: zakim, nunolopes is me ←
15:05:38 <Zakim> davidwood, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P17 (85%), Ivan (5%)
Zakim IRC Bot: davidwood, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P17 (85%), Ivan (5%) ←
15:05:42 <AlexHall> zakim, +1.443.212.aacc is me
Alex Hall: zakim, +1.443.212.aacc is me ←
15:05:44 <Zakim> + +1.603.897.aaee
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.603.897.aaee ←
15:05:53 <Zakim> ??P17 should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: ??P17 should now be muted ←
15:05:54 <Zakim> -??P17
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P17 ←
15:05:58 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +cygri; got it ←
15:06:04 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider
Zakim IRC Bot: +Peter_Patel-Schneider ←
15:06:10 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AlexHall; got it ←
15:06:23 <Souri_> zakim, who is on the phone?
Souripriya Das: zakim, who is on the phone? ←
15:06:24 <Zakim> +??P43
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P43 ←
15:06:26 <JeremyCarroll> David: welcome everyone - focus on JSON
David Wood: welcome everyone - focus on JSON ←
15:06:26 <JeremyCarroll> Topic: Admin
15:06:32 <webr3> zakim, i am ??P43
Nathan Rixham: zakim, i am ??P43 ←
15:06:34 <Zakim> +??P17
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P17 ←
15:06:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see Tony, David, Sandro, LeeF, zwu2 (muted), OlivierCorby, JeremyCarroll (muted), AndyS, mischat_ (muted), manu1, AlexHall, tomayac_, PatH, JFB (muted), Ivan,
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Tony, David, Sandro, LeeF, zwu2 (muted), OlivierCorby, JeremyCarroll (muted), AndyS, mischat_ (muted), manu1, AlexHall, tomayac_, PatH, JFB (muted), Ivan, ←
15:06:46 <ww> zakim, +??P17 is me
William Waites: zakim, +??P17 is me ←
15:06:47 <Zakim> ... FabGandon, cygri, +1.603.897.aaee, Peter_Patel-Schneider, ??P43, ??P17
Zakim IRC Bot: ... FabGandon, cygri, +1.603.897.aaee, Peter_Patel-Schneider, ??P43, ??P17 ←
15:06:51 <Zakim> +webr3; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +webr3; got it ←
15:06:52 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is talking? ←
15:06:57 <Zakim> sorry, ww, I do not recognize a party named '+??P17'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, ww, I do not recognize a party named '+??P17' ←
15:06:58 <Souri_> zakim, aaee is me
Souripriya Das: zakim, aaee is me ←
15:07:06 <Zakim> +Souri_; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Souri_; got it ←
15:07:08 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: David (25%), ??P17 (59%), Ivan (20%)
Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: David (25%), ??P17 (59%), Ivan (20%) ←
15:07:12 <ww> zakim, ??P17 is me
William Waites: zakim, ??P17 is me ←
15:07:12 <Zakim> +ww; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +ww; got it ←
15:07:15 <sandro> zakim, mute P17
Sandro Hawke: zakim, mute P17 ←
15:07:15 <Zakim> sorry, sandro, I do not know which phone connection belongs to P17
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, sandro, I do not know which phone connection belongs to P17 ←
15:07:16 <ww> zakim, mute me
William Waites: zakim, mute me ←
15:07:17 <Zakim> ww should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: ww should now be muted ←
15:07:46 <davidwood> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 16 March telecon:
David Wood: PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 16 March telecon: ←
15:07:46 <pfps> Minutes are acceptable, even with minor issues
Peter Patel-Schneider: Minutes are acceptable, even with minor issues ←
15:07:46 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-03-16
David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-03-16 ←
15:07:52 <manu1> +1 to accept the minutes
Manu Sporny: +1 to accept the minutes ←
15:07:56 <tomayac> +1 to accept
Thomas Steiner: +1 to accept ←
15:07:58 <JFB> +1 to accept
Jean-François Baget: +1 to accept ←
15:08:00 <JeremyCarroll> RESOLVED: Minutes http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-03-16 accepted
RESOLVED: Minutes http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-03-16 accepted ←
15:08:20 <JeremyCarroll> No pending action items to review
No pending action items to review ←
15:09:18 <JeremyCarroll> subtopic: Action Item Review
15:09:18 <JeremyCarroll> subsubtopic: Action-4
15:09:18 <JeremyCarroll> Action-4 is open, another use case has been added
ACTION-4 is open, another use case has been added ←
15:09:40 <JeremyCarroll> Suggested to close it since the use case has been added
Suggested to close it since the use case has been added ←
15:09:48 <JeremyCarroll> Closed. Danbri did the action
Closed. Danbri did the action ←
15:09:58 <JeremyCarroll> subsubtopic: Action-6
15:11:13 <mischat> zakim, unmute me
Mischa Tuffield: zakim, unmute me ←
15:11:13 <Zakim> mischat_ should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: mischat_ should no longer be muted ←
15:11:16 <JeremyCarroll> subsubtopic: ACTION-19
15:11:34 <JeremyCarroll> Richard has started this but is still working on it
Richard has started this but is still working on it ←
15:11:51 <JeremyCarroll> This action is time consuming because it involves a lot of software
This action is time consuming because it involves a lot of software ←
15:12:10 <JeremyCarroll> His goal is to list import formats and to explore output formats
His goal is to list import formats and to explore output formats ←
15:12:14 <mischat> zakim, mute me
Mischa Tuffield: zakim, mute me ←
15:12:14 <Zakim> mischat_ should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: mischat_ should now be muted ←
15:13:15 <JeremyCarroll> subsubtopic: ACTION-20
15:13:15 <JeremyCarroll> TomSteiner is trying to get side by side comparison
TomSteiner is trying to get side by side comparison ←
15:13:36 <tomayac> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-JSON#JSON_Serializations_By_Example
Thomas Steiner: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-JSON#JSON_Serializations_By_Example ←
15:13:41 <zwu2> sounds good
15:14:48 <JeremyCarroll> this action is still open, input data is being gathered
this action is still open, input data is being gathered ←
15:15:18 <JeremyCarroll> test cases will be added to Wiki
test cases will be added to Wiki ←
15:09:18 <JeremyCarroll> subtopic: F2F Preparation
15:16:21 <JeremyCarroll> Please respond to f2f proposal as to whether you are attending or not
(No events recorded for 7 minutes)
Please respond to f2f proposal as to whether you are attending or not ←
15:16:33 <JeremyCarroll> Hotels in Amsterdam filling up on Thursday
Hotels in Amsterdam filling up on Thursday ←
15:16:44 <Souri_> Is attending the F2F remotely from Boston area an option?
Souripriya Das: Is attending the F2F remotely from Boston area an option? ←
15:27:02 <Souri_> Is attending the first F2F remotely from Boston area an option? I remember that Ivan had said that it is not. Just trying to confirm.
(No events recorded for 10 minutes)
Souripriya Das: Is attending the first F2F remotely from Boston area an option? I remember that Ivan had said that it is not. Just trying to confirm. ←
15:16:56 <JeremyCarroll> Topic: JSON
15:17:20 <manu1> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Mar/0521.html
Manu Sporny: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Mar/0521.html ←
15:18:05 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: presents where we are at
Manu Sporny: presents where we are at ←
15:18:23 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: TF telecon report back
Manu Sporny: TF telecon report back ←
15:18:44 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: TF agrees that a JSON format would be a good thing
Manu Sporny: TF agrees that a JSON format would be a good thing ←
15:19:01 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: sense of urgency was low-to-moderate
Manu Sporny: sense of urgency was low-to-moderate ←
15:19:23 <AndyS> --> JSON format for SPARQL results
Andy Seaborne: --> JSON format for SPARQL results ←
15:20:15 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: half group were concerned about govt and enterprise
Manu Sporny: half group were concerned about govt and enterprise ←
15:20:47 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: half more concerned abotu independent developers
Manu Sporny: half more concerned abotu independent developers ←
15:21:48 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: we need to make sure that we keep as many people on board as possible
Manu Sporny: we need to make sure that we keep as many people on board as possible ←
15:21:58 <JeremyCarroll> Pat: why do motivations matter?
Patrick Hayes: why do motivations matter? ←
15:22:20 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
15:22:21 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: there are technical consequences given motivations, e.g. APIs vs publishing formats
Manu Sporny: there are technical consequences given motivations, e.g. APIs vs publishing formats ←
15:22:39 <Zakim> +??P46
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P46 ←
15:22:45 <ww> zakim, ??P46 is me
William Waites: zakim, ??P46 is me ←
15:22:45 <Zakim> +ww; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +ww; got it ←
15:22:49 <ww> zakim, mute me
William Waites: zakim, mute me ←
15:22:49 <Zakim> ww was already muted, ww
Zakim IRC Bot: ww was already muted, ww ←
15:22:56 <zwu2> is it possible to build adapters/bridges between two different RDF/JSON serialization formats?
Zhe Wu: is it possible to build adapters/bridges between two different RDF/JSON serialization formats? ←
15:23:11 <webr3> everything is possible :)
Nathan Rixham: everything is possible :) ←
15:23:35 <zwu2> is there an efficient way then?
Zhe Wu: is there an efficient way then? ←
15:23:52 <AndyS> zwu2 - RDF?
Andy Seaborne: zwu2 - RDF? ←
15:24:17 <zwu2> RDF/JSON, andy
15:23:29 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: doamin of interest, and use cases, and technical solutions are all interrelated
Manu Sporny: doamin of interest, and use cases, and technical solutions are all interrelated ←
15:23:53 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: if we do not have enough people interested in a topic then we will not be able to pursue such a technical soln
Manu Sporny: if we do not have enough people interested in a topic then we will not be able to pursue such a technical soln ←
15:24:18 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: there was discussion concerning round tripping
Manu Sporny: there was discussion concerning round tripping ←
15:24:41 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: round tripping - can data that is GET ted then be POST ed back
Manu Sporny: round tripping - can data that is GET ted then be POST ed back ←
15:24:46 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: without data loss
Manu Sporny: without data loss ←
15:25:19 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: it seemed clear when people spoke what they wanted, but not clear that there was consensus in TF
Manu Sporny: it seemed clear when people spoke what they wanted, but not clear that there was consensus in TF ←
15:25:28 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: issue of premature standardization
Manu Sporny: issue of premature standardization ←
15:26:00 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: this is a strong concern, unclear whether some JSON solutions will work,
Manu Sporny: this is a strong concern, unclear whether some JSON solutions will work, ←
15:26:08 <ww> JSON-UL?
William Waites: JSON-UL? ←
15:26:41 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: there is general unfamiliarity with some formats, cf: ACTION-20
Manu Sporny: there is general unfamiliarity with some formats, cf: ACTION-20 ←
15:27:08 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: many motivations behind different formats are currently not well understood by many members of group
Manu Sporny: many motivations behind different formats are currently not well understood by many members of group ←
15:27:50 <webr3> q+
Nathan Rixham: q+ ←
15:28:06 <JeremyCarroll> David: can we use use cases to understand different people's preferences
David Wood: can we use use cases to understand different people's preferences ←
15:28:30 <webr3> q-
Nathan Rixham: q- ←
15:29:11 <cygri> davidwood++
Richard Cyganiak: davidwood++ ←
15:29:14 <davidwood> ack web3r
David Wood: ack web3r ←
15:29:26 <Zakim> -OlivierCorby
Zakim IRC Bot: -OlivierCorby ←
15:29:44 <JeremyCarroll> David: this would help in seeing what work can be resourced properly, and possibly help in reaching consensus
David Wood: this would help in seeing what work can be resourced properly, and possibly help in reaching consensus ←
15:30:18 <webr3> action: nathan to group json use cases on wiki
ACTION: nathan to group json use cases on wiki ←
15:30:18 <trackbot> Created ACTION-22 - Group json use cases on wiki [on Nathan Rixham - due 2011-03-30].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-22 - Group json use cases on wiki [on Nathan Rixham - due 2011-03-30]. ←
15:30:47 <ivan> zakim, mute me
Ivan Herman: zakim, mute me ←
15:30:47 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Ivan should now be muted ←
15:30:56 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
15:31:00 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby
Zakim IRC Bot: +OlivierCorby ←
15:31:15 <davidwood> ack cygri
David Wood: ack cygri ←
15:32:17 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
15:32:22 <JeremyCarroll> Richard: agrees that grouping use cases will help
Richard Cyganiak: agrees that grouping use cases will help ←
15:33:02 <JeremyCarroll> David (as Talis rep, not chair): there is no internal consensus about this issue, but there are strong opinions
David (as Talis rep, not chair): there is no internal consensus about this issue, but there are strong opinions ←
15:33:24 <JeremyCarroll> David (...): 1 opinion is that an API is needed, otherwise format is doomed
David (...): 1 opinion is that an API is needed, otherwise format is doomed ←
15:33:38 <webr3> David, can you clarify what you mean by "API" (api as in tooling for consumers) or "API" as in linked-data-api ?
Nathan Rixham: David, can you clarify what you mean by "API" (api as in tooling for consumers) or "API" as in linked-data-api ? ←
15:33:39 <JeremyCarroll> David (...): 2 opinion is triple format is crucial
David (...): 2 opinion is triple format is crucial ←
15:34:13 <JeremyCarroll> David (...): as rep it is hard to map different people's opinions onto use cases
David (...): as rep it is hard to map different people's opinions onto use cases ←
15:34:42 <JeremyCarroll> David: Guus prefers a bottom up approach
David Wood: Guus prefers a bottom up approach ←
15:35:12 <JeremyCarroll> David: Guus wants minimal approach, adding features with motivation
David Wood: Guus wants minimal approach, adding features with motivation ←
15:35:30 <webr3> David, next q - by "starting point" did you mean a simple object then add, or a simple triple, then add?
Nathan Rixham: David, next q - by "starting point" did you mean a simple object then add, or a simple triple, then add? ←
15:35:36 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
15:35:49 <davidwood> webr3: yes
Nathan Rixham: yes [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ] ←
15:35:58 <sandro> url for RDF API spec?
Sandro Hawke: url for RDF API spec? ←
15:36:11 <davidwood> webr3: oops :) I meant a simple object.
Nathan Rixham: oops :) I meant a simple object. [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ] ←
15:36:13 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: we would like to see more people on APIs in JavaScript or Python
Manu Sporny: we would like to see more people on APIs in JavaScript or Python ←
15:36:25 <webr3> Sandro, http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdf-api/
Nathan Rixham: Sandro, http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdf-api/ ←
15:36:31 <webr3> davidwood, then +1, i agree
Nathan Rixham: davidwood, then +1, i agree ←
15:36:37 <davidwood> sandro: The LOD API spec is at http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdf-api/
Sandro Hawke: The LOD API spec is at http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/sources/rdf-api/ [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ] ←
15:36:39 <ww> yes. http://bibliographica.org/
William Waites: yes. http://bibliographica.org/ ←
15:36:45 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
15:36:52 <davidwood> ack sandro
David Wood: ack sandro ←
15:36:52 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to talk about the matrix
Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, you wanted to talk about the matrix ←
15:36:59 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: who is shipping a product requiring JSON technologies
Manu Sporny: who is shipping a product requiring JSON technologies ←
15:37:39 <JeremyCarroll> Sandro: I have a hard time understanding use cases - mix of abstraction and concrete
Sandro Hawke: I have a hard time understanding use cases - mix of abstraction and concrete ←
15:37:55 <JeremyCarroll> Sandro: I like the matrix
Sandro Hawke: I like the matrix ←
15:38:18 <manu1> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/JSON_User_Segments
Manu Sporny: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/JSON_User_Segments ←
15:38:22 <JeremyCarroll> Sandro: we are trying to get data from producer to consumer, this gives a square on matrix
Sandro Hawke: we are trying to get data from producer to consumer, this gives a square on matrix ←
15:38:43 <JeremyCarroll> Sandro: each square sort of corresponds to a use case
Sandro Hawke: each square sort of corresponds to a use case ←
15:39:24 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/JSON_User_Segments
Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/JSON_User_Segments ←
15:39:24 <ww> mischat: the data store is rdf. the user interface is json/resty thing and web developers that know about rdf are hard to come by. so need to translate json i/o to rdf i/o
Mischa Tuffield: the data store is rdf. the user interface is json/resty thing and web developers that know about rdf are hard to come by. so need to translate json i/o to rdf i/o [ Scribe Assist by William Waites ] ←
15:39:26 <JeremyCarroll> some consumers want RDF, some don't
some consumers want RDF, some don't ←
15:39:43 <JeremyCarroll> some consumers are happy to use a library, others are not happy to use a library
some consumers are happy to use a library, others are not happy to use a library ←
15:39:56 <ww> which we've already done in an application-specific way but it would be nice to have a more standard/consistent way
William Waites: which we've already done in an application-specific way but it would be nice to have a more standard/consistent way ←
15:41:18 <JeremyCarroll> sandro: if people are not rpepared to use library, then encoding has to be really simple
Sandro Hawke: if people are not rpepared to use library, then encoding has to be really simple ←
15:41:42 <JeremyCarroll> sandro: this is where Talis' products are at - simple encoding
Sandro Hawke: this is where Talis' products are at - simple encoding ←
15:41:54 <ww> as an example: our franken-simpleish-json: http://bnb.bibliographica.org/entry/GB5105626.json
William Waites: as an example: our franken-simpleish-json: http://bnb.bibliographica.org/entry/GB5105626.json ←
15:42:48 <JeremyCarroll> David: is there a difference between librarys or APIs
David Wood: is there a difference between librarys or APIs ←
15:42:54 <JeremyCarroll> Sandro: no
Sandro Hawke: no ←
15:43:07 <davidwood> ack JeremyCarroll
David Wood: ack JeremyCarroll ←
15:43:16 <webr3> ww, why does it flip between qnames/curies and simple keys? (type / "dc:isPartOf")
Nathan Rixham: ww, why does it flip between qnames/curies and simple keys? (type / "dc:isPartOf") ←
15:43:20 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, unmute JeremyCarroll
Zakim, unmute JeremyCarroll ←
15:43:20 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted ←
15:44:29 <ww> webr3: the algorithm is, is there a property on the python object that is explicitly modelled and we know a priori in an application-specific way what predicate it is? then just use the property name
Nathan Rixham: the algorithm is, is there a property on the python object that is explicitly modelled and we know a priori in an application-specific way what predicate it is? then just use the property name [ Scribe Assist by William Waites ] ←
15:44:44 <ww> 2. do we have a known prefix we can use? use that (e.g. curie)
William Waites: 2. do we have a known prefix we can use? use that (e.g. curie) ←
15:44:51 <ww> 3. use <uri>
William Waites: 3. use <uri> ←
15:45:18 <webr3> ww, do you see (2) as being important or would 1+3 be acceptable?
Nathan Rixham: ww, do you see (2) as being important or would 1+3 be acceptable? ←
15:46:13 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, mute JeremyCarroll
Zakim, mute JeremyCarroll ←
15:46:13 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: JeremyCarroll should now be muted ←
15:46:15 <davidwood> ack manu1
David Wood: ack manu1 ←
15:46:15 <Zakim> manu1, you wanted to discuss really simple encoding.
Zakim IRC Bot: manu1, you wanted to discuss really simple encoding. ←
15:46:55 <JeremyCarroll> Jeremy: in TQ's client server protocol, issues to do with client side caching and temporal semantics - to make it neutral to programmer as to whether a triple is locally cached or involves server round trip
Jeremy Carroll: in TQ's client server protocol, issues to do with client side caching and temporal semantics - to make it neutral to programmer as to whether a triple is locally cached or involves server round trip ←
15:47:12 <ww> webr3: let's follow up on the list
Nathan Rixham: let's follow up on the list [ Scribe Assist by William Waites ] ←
15:48:02 <AndyS> q+
Andy Seaborne: q+ ←
15:48:18 <davidwood> ack AndyS
David Wood: ack AndyS ←
15:48:22 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: of the people represented here, there do not seem to be actual business requirements
Manu Sporny: of the people represented here, there do not seem to be actual business requirements ←
15:48:45 <webr3> likewise, I have business use-cases for a few clients
Nathan Rixham: likewise, I have business use-cases for a few clients ←
15:49:21 <tomayac> (dialed in the us bridge. redialing. we had the same issue in the media fragments wg this morning)
Thomas Steiner: (dialed in the us bridge. redialing. we had the same issue in the media fragments wg this morning) ←
15:49:26 <Zakim> -tomayac_
Zakim IRC Bot: -tomayac_ ←
15:50:14 <Zakim> +tomayac_
Zakim IRC Bot: +tomayac_ ←
15:51:45 <tomayac> (to ivan lol, don't have a prob w/ manu neither ;-) only hearing him)
Thomas Steiner: (to ivan lol, don't have a prob w/ manu neither ;-) only hearing him) ←
15:51:52 <davidwood> ack sandro
David Wood: ack sandro ←
15:52:25 <webr3> q+
Nathan Rixham: q+ ←
15:52:27 <JeremyCarroll> sandro: should we discuss use cases for rest of telecon?
Sandro Hawke: should we discuss use cases for rest of telecon? ←
15:52:38 <JeremyCarroll> david: do you want to categorize them?
David Wood: do you want to categorize them? ←
15:52:43 <JeremyCarroll> sandro: only if easy
Sandro Hawke: only if easy ←
15:52:48 <Zakim> +AZ
Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ ←
15:53:07 <manu1> zakim, mute AZ
Manu Sporny: zakim, mute AZ ←
15:53:07 <Zakim> AZ should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: AZ should now be muted ←
15:53:12 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the call? ←
15:53:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see Tony, David, Sandro, LeeF, zwu2 (muted), JeremyCarroll (muted), AndyS, mischat_ (muted), manu1, AlexHall, PatH, JFB (muted), Ivan (muted), FabGandon, cygri,
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Tony, David, Sandro, LeeF, zwu2 (muted), JeremyCarroll (muted), AndyS, mischat_ (muted), manu1, AlexHall, PatH, JFB (muted), Ivan (muted), FabGandon, cygri, ←
15:53:16 <Zakim> ... Souri_, Peter_Patel-Schneider, webr3, ww (muted), ww, OlivierCorby, tomayac_, AZ (muted)
Zakim IRC Bot: ... Souri_, Peter_Patel-Schneider, webr3, ww (muted), ww, OlivierCorby, tomayac_, AZ (muted) ←
15:53:23 <AZ> Zakim, mute me
Antoine Zimmermann: Zakim, mute me ←
15:53:23 <Zakim> sorry, AZ, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, AZ, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you ←
15:53:24 <webr3> q-
Nathan Rixham: q- ←
15:53:52 <Zakim> +AxelPolleres
Zakim IRC Bot: +AxelPolleres ←
15:53:52 <webr3> q+
Nathan Rixham: q+ ←
15:53:59 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
15:54:05 <ivan> ack webr3
Ivan Herman: ack webr3 ←
15:54:05 <davidwood> ack web3r
David Wood: ack web3r ←
15:54:15 <sandro> sandro: please queue yourself to talk about the json use case you care about the most
Sandro Hawke: please queue yourself to talk about the json use case you care about the most [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:54:52 <ww> q+
William Waites: q+ ←
15:56:08 <JeremyCarroll> Nathan: first case was that they wanted tripled based data to be exposed as simple objects without RDF
Nathan Rixham: first case was that they wanted tripled based data to be exposed as simple objects without RDF ←
15:55:36 <JeremyCarroll> Nathan: second case, people who have simple non-RDF objects in NoSQL db but they want to expose these as RDF
Nathan Rixham: second case, people who have simple non-RDF objects in NoSQL db but they want to expose these as RDF ←
15:56:38 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, unmute JeremyCarroll
Zakim, unmute JeremyCarroll ←
15:56:38 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted ←
15:56:39 <mischat> zakim, who is making noise ?
Mischa Tuffield: zakim, who is making noise ? ←
15:56:49 <Zakim> mischat, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: David (56%), tomayac_ (8%), AndyS (19%), JeremyCarroll (34%), webr3 (48%), ww (4%)
Zakim IRC Bot: mischat, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: David (56%), tomayac_ (8%), AndyS (19%), JeremyCarroll (34%), webr3 (48%), ww (4%) ←
15:56:55 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, mute JeremyCarroll
Zakim, mute JeremyCarroll ←
15:56:55 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: JeremyCarroll should now be muted ←
15:57:05 <davidwood> ack manu1
David Wood: ack manu1 ←
15:57:19 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: we are working on universal payment standard
Manu Sporny: we are working on universal payment standard ←
15:58:06 <mischat> http://payswarm.com/
Mischa Tuffield: http://payswarm.com/ ←
15:58:25 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: want a decentralized system that avoids reentering of financial data
Manu Sporny: want a decentralized system that avoids reentering of financial data ←
15:58:36 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: core technology is RDFa in HTML
Manu Sporny: core technology is RDFa in HTML ←
15:58:54 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: data is stored either in triple store or document store
Manu Sporny: data is stored either in triple store or document store ←
15:59:08 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: assumption is HTML+RDFa not a triple store
Manu Sporny: assumption is HTML+RDFa not a triple store ←
15:59:45 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
15:59:45 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: lots of URIs for identifying thins
Manu Sporny: lots of URIs for identifying thins ←
16:00:05 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: need someway to express data which web developers are comfortable with
Manu Sporny: need someway to express data which web developers are comfortable with ←
16:00:21 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: turtle etc are way outside comfort zone of developers discussed
Manu Sporny: turtle etc are way outside comfort zone of developers discussed ←
16:00:36 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: needs to be as easy as twitter or facebook API
Manu Sporny: needs to be as easy as twitter or facebook API ←
16:00:48 <ivan> q-
Ivan Herman: q- ←
16:00:52 <Zakim> -OlivierCorby
Zakim IRC Bot: -OlivierCorby ←
16:00:54 <JeremyCarroll> Manu: API can be converted into triples, but can be used directly
Manu Sporny: API can be converted into triples, but can be used directly ←
16:00:58 <sandro> manu: We want to provide an API where people who care about triples can get them, but others can use the API directly, where it just looks like json.
Manu Sporny: We want to provide an API where people who care about triples can get them, but others can use the API directly, where it just looks like json. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:01:16 <zwu2> q+
16:01:21 <davidwood> ack cygri
David Wood: ack cygri ←
16:01:23 <sandro> (very clear at the end, Manu, thanks.)
Sandro Hawke: (very clear at the end, Manu, thanks.) ←
16:01:40 <JeremyCarroll> Richard: we have RDF data in a SPARQL store
Richard Cyganiak: we have RDF data in a SPARQL store ←
16:01:51 <Zakim> +OlivierCorby
Zakim IRC Bot: +OlivierCorby ←
16:01:53 <JeremyCarroll> Richard: we want to build one or more apps that use this data
Richard Cyganiak: we want to build one or more apps that use this data ←
16:01:58 <zwu2> zakim, unmute me
16:01:58 <Zakim> zwu2 should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: zwu2 should no longer be muted ←
16:02:18 <JeremyCarroll> Richard: we want to develop these apps in JavaScript because it makes development process simpler
Richard Cyganiak: we want to develop these apps in JavaScript because it makes development process simpler ←
16:02:50 <JeremyCarroll> Richard: we currently do simple select queries with JSON results format from SPARQL
Richard Cyganiak: we currently do simple select queries with JSON results format from SPARQL ←
16:03:05 <JeremyCarroll> Richard: processing this is straightforward
Richard Cyganiak: processing this is straightforward ←
16:04:01 <ivan> zakim, who is noisy?
Ivan Herman: zakim, who is noisy? ←
16:04:11 <Zakim> ivan, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 24 (28%), David (44%), tomayac_ (26%), manu1 (5%), cygri (20%), ww (5%)
Zakim IRC Bot: ivan, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 24 (28%), David (44%), tomayac_ (26%), manu1 (5%), cygri (20%), ww (5%) ←
16:04:42 <sandro> cygri:We want something the encodes the output of SPARQL CONSTRUCT or DESCRIBE in a simple and predictable way for the Javascript developer who is already familiar with RDF. They know SPARQL and can think in triples.
Richard Cyganiak: We want something the encodes the output of SPARQL CONSTRUCT or DESCRIBE in a simple and predictable way for the Javascript developer who is already familiar with RDF. They know SPARQL and can think in triples. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:05:21 <webr3> Nathan: I have two distinct groups of publishers (1) those who have rdf-triples behind the scenes (2) those who have non-rdf objects behind the scenes | both of those groups want to target both non-rdf developers, and rdf-developers. This creates two core needs: (a) a way to give rdf-triples as simple-objects to non-rdf developers (b) a way to give simple-objects as rdf to rdf-developers
Nathan Rixham: I have two distinct groups of publishers (1) those who have rdf-triples behind the scenes (2) those who have non-rdf objects behind the scenes | both of those groups want to target both non-rdf developers, and rdf-developers. This creates two core needs: (a) a way to give rdf-triples as simple-objects to non-rdf developers (b) a way to give simple-objects as rdf to rdf-developers [ Scribe Assist by Nathan Rixham ] ←
16:05:22 <webr3> Nathan: distinct from that I see two other cases (c) dumping rdf as json as a leightweight triple format (d) sparql (which I see as orthogonal, is sparql engine on client or server?)
Nathan Rixham: distinct from that I see two other cases (c) dumping rdf as json as a leightweight triple format (d) sparql (which I see as orthogonal, is sparql engine on client or server?) [ Scribe Assist by Nathan Rixham ] ←
16:05:26 <JeremyCarroll> Richard: but we also want to use things like DESCRIBE or CONSTRUCT
Richard Cyganiak: but we also want to use things like DESCRIBE or CONSTRUCT ←
16:05:26 <JeremyCarroll> Richard: but these do not give a JSON result
Richard Cyganiak: but these do not give a JSON result ←
16:05:35 <sandro> cygri: This is most interesting if you don't really want to use a consumer library; if library is okay, then use existing syntax. It's nice to just code away on the raw json, though.
Richard Cyganiak: This is most interesting if you don't really want to use a consumer library; if library is okay, then use existing syntax. It's nice to just code away on the raw json, though. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:05:55 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, mute JeremyCarroll
Zakim, mute JeremyCarroll ←
16:05:55 <JeremyCarroll> Richard: want simple or predictable result format for DESCRIBE and CONSTRUCT
Richard Cyganiak: want simple or predictable result format for DESCRIBE and CONSTRUCT ←
16:05:55 <JeremyCarroll> Richard: we don't really want a library, because if library is OK then there is no problem to sovle (library can do whatever magic is needed)
Richard Cyganiak: we don't really want a library, because if library is OK then there is no problem to sovle (library can do whatever magic is needed) ←
16:05:55 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll was already muted, JeremyCarroll
Zakim IRC Bot: JeremyCarroll was already muted, JeremyCarroll ←
16:06:09 <ivan> The requirements of Manu and Richard are not very dissimilar...
Ivan Herman: The requirements of Manu and Richard are not very dissimilar... ←
16:06:19 <davidwood> JeremyCarroll, no it wasn't you
David Wood: JeremyCarroll, no it wasn't you ←
16:06:32 <JeremyCarroll> Richard: related problem is posting data back to SPARQL store
Richard Cyganiak: related problem is posting data back to SPARQL store ←
16:06:35 <manu1> I wouldn't say that Ivan - not clear at the moment...
Manu Sporny: I wouldn't say that Ivan - not clear at the moment... ←
16:06:36 <JeremyCarroll> e.g. with HTTP PUT
e.g. with HTTP PUT ←
16:06:37 <sandro> cygri: also, good to post back to store. json serialization for simple encoding of RDF graph.
Richard Cyganiak: also, good to post back to store. json serialization for simple encoding of RDF graph. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:06:40 <davidwood> q?
David Wood: q? ←
16:06:52 <ww> zakim, unmute me
William Waites: zakim, unmute me ←
16:06:52 <Zakim> ww should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: ww should no longer be muted ←
16:07:03 <sandro> (great, cygri)
Sandro Hawke: (great, cygri) ←
16:07:06 <davidwood> ack ww
David Wood: ack ww ←
16:07:17 <PatHayes> yup
Patrick Hayes: yup ←
16:07:23 <Zakim> -LeeF
Zakim IRC Bot: -LeeF ←
16:08:43 <JeremyCarroll> ww: has use cases with end users in web browswers annotating data
William Waites: has use cases with end users in web browswers annotating data ←
16:08:56 <JeremyCarroll> ww: the end users actions are mediated by web developers
William Waites: the end users actions are mediated by web developers ←
16:09:07 <JeremyCarroll> ww: the web developers neither know nor want to know about RDF
William Waites: the web developers neither know nor want to know about RDF ←
16:09:32 <JeremyCarroll> ww: but these developers need to mediate between a triple store and the end users
William Waites: but these developers need to mediate between a triple store and the end users ←
16:09:40 <sandro> ww: The developers don't seem to know much about modeling in RDF, and don't want to, but the modeling in the back is RDF.
William Waites: The developers don't seem to know much about modeling in RDF, and don't want to, but the modeling in the back is RDF. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:09:57 <ww> zakim, mute me
William Waites: zakim, mute me ←
16:09:57 <Zakim> ww should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: ww should now be muted ←
16:09:59 <JeremyCarroll> ww: mechanisms involve HTTP PUT/POST/GET and JSON but not sure how
William Waites: mechanisms involve HTTP PUT/POST/GET and JSON but not sure how ←
16:10:06 <davidwood> ack zwu
David Wood: ack zwu ←
16:10:10 <manu1> People might want to look at this as a complex example: http://purl.org/payswarm#Contract
Manu Sporny: People might want to look at this as a complex example: http://purl.org/payswarm#Contract ←
16:10:39 <JeremyCarroll> zwu: I understand why web developers do not want RDF/XML, but why not turtle
Zhe Wu: I understand why web developers do not want RDF/XML, but why not turtle ←
16:10:39 <sandro> zwu2: Why would developers really not want to get near Turtle. It's really simple.
Zhe Wu: Why would developers really not want to get near Turtle. It's really simple. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:10:51 <davidwood> It may interest some to see how James Leigh and I roundtrip RDF to and from a browser: http://callimachusproject.org
David Wood: It may interest some to see how James Leigh and I roundtrip RDF to and from a browser: http://callimachusproject.org ←
16:10:57 <sandro> manu: They say they already know json, and don't see why they need something else.
Manu Sporny: They say they already know json, and don't see why they need something else. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:10:57 <JeremyCarroll> manu: dev say we already know JSON, why should we learn more?
Manu Sporny: dev say we already know JSON, why should we learn more? ←
16:11:17 <sandro> manu: They just don't see the problem that json doesn't address.
Manu Sporny: They just don't see the problem that json doesn't address. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:11:32 <JeremyCarroll> manu: web developers use json to read and write data and accomplish their tasks involving linked data like tasks
Manu Sporny: web developers use json to read and write data and accomplish their tasks involving linked data like tasks ←
16:11:49 <ww> somewhat harshly, i've been told that it is not reasonable to expect developers to "go back to school" and learn about something new, and rdf seems pretty different
William Waites: somewhat harshly, i've been told that it is not reasonable to expect developers to "go back to school" and learn about something new, and rdf seems pretty different ←
16:11:58 <sandro> manu: and you don't need much more. you just uris, and folks already do that a lot. most of that can be done on the server side. "Why are you making me learn something new, when that's not really required."
Manu Sporny: and you don't need much more. you just uris, and folks already do that a lot. most of that can be done on the server side. "Why are you making me learn something new, when that's not really required." [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:12:02 <JeremyCarroll> manu: why are you making me learn something new ...
Manu Sporny: why are you making me learn something new ... ←
16:12:24 <cygri> q+
Richard Cyganiak: q+ ←
16:12:35 <JeremyCarroll> zwu: RDF is not a huge deal
Zhe Wu: RDF is not a huge deal ←
16:12:41 <cygri> q-
Richard Cyganiak: q- ←
16:12:43 <JeremyCarroll> manu: but the learning curves are huge
Manu Sporny: but the learning curves are huge ←
16:12:49 <JeremyCarroll> JeremyCarroll: +1 to manu
Jeremy Carroll: +1 to manu ←
16:12:59 <ivan> +1 to manu
Ivan Herman: +1 to manu ←
16:13:01 <cygri> +10 to manu
Richard Cyganiak: +10 to manu ←
16:13:09 <ww> +100 to manu
William Waites: +100 to manu ←
16:13:14 <JeremyCarroll> David: agrees with manu
David Wood: agrees with manu ←
16:13:17 <mischat> fwiw we built the whole of http://foafbuilder.qdos.com/builder/ which is very ajaxie, or "ajar-ie" in timbl speak. Our model in the MVC was RDF, storage a triplestore. and like above RDF to and from a browser
Mischa Tuffield: fwiw we built the whole of http://foafbuilder.qdos.com/builder/ which is very ajaxie, or "ajar-ie" in timbl speak. Our model in the MVC was RDF, storage a triplestore. and like above RDF to and from a browser ←
16:13:23 <webr3> they have a full stack including progamming languages all setup around working with classes and objects - they just aren't setup to handle triples and graphs (who is??!)
Nathan Rixham: they have a full stack including progamming languages all setup around working with classes and objects - they just aren't setup to handle triples and graphs (who is??!) ←
16:13:29 <sandro> manu: The RDF concepts are really not something that are easy to pick up and learn.
Manu Sporny: The RDF concepts are really not something that are easy to pick up and learn. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:13:32 <JeremyCarroll> strong agreement with manu
strong agreement with manu ←
16:13:36 <manu1> +1 to David
Manu Sporny: +1 to David ←
16:13:40 <ivan> +1 to David
Ivan Herman: +1 to David ←
16:13:52 <JeremyCarroll> David: we want web developers to use this technology, rather than web dev want to use these
David Wood: we want web developers to use this technology, rather than web dev want to use these ←
16:13:52 <cygri> food for thought: http://www.google.com/trends?q=json%2Crdf&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0
Richard Cyganiak: food for thought: http://www.google.com/trends?q=json%2Crdf&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0 ←
16:13:55 <sandro> davidwood: We want web developers to adopt this technology, more than they want to adopt it. We can't put stumbling blocks in their way.
David Wood: We want web developers to adopt this technology, more than they want to adopt it. We can't put stumbling blocks in their way. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:14:09 <JeremyCarroll> q+
q+ ←
16:14:12 <ivan> zhe, do not underestimate the weight of a familiar syntax
Ivan Herman: zhe, do not underestimate the weight of a familiar syntax ←
16:14:26 <davidwood> cygri: very relevant!
Richard Cyganiak: very relevant! [ Scribe Assist by David Wood ] ←
16:14:34 <AndyS> q+ to talk to linking
Andy Seaborne: q+ to talk to linking ←
16:14:52 <JeremyCarroll> manu: I don't think web developers grok some of the advanced topics to do with linked data
Manu Sporny: I don't think web developers grok some of the advanced topics to do with linked data ←
16:15:03 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, unmute JeremyCarroll
Zakim, unmute JeremyCarroll ←
16:15:03 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted ←
16:15:03 <zwu2> zakim, unmute me
16:15:04 <Zakim> zwu2 was not muted, zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: zwu2 was not muted, zwu2 ←
16:16:04 <ww> uri as a global *property/predicate* identifier is difficult - you can't write that in most OO type languages
William Waites: uri as a global *property/predicate* identifier is difficult - you can't write that in most OO type languages ←
16:16:06 <pfps> isn't JSON at least formally "open"
Peter Patel-Schneider: isn't JSON at least formally "open" ←
16:16:34 <JeremyCarroll> Jeremy: uri as global identifier as opposed to local scoped id is one key RDF concept
Jeremy Carroll: uri as global identifier as opposed to local scoped id is one key RDF concept ←
16:16:55 <JeremyCarroll> Jeremy: open schema of RDFS rather than fully specified app schema is a second
Jeremy Carroll: open schema of RDFS rather than fully specified app schema is a second ←
16:17:04 <JeremyCarroll> Jeremy: both are advanced and difficult
Jeremy Carroll: both are advanced and difficult ←
16:16:11 <manu1> +1 to Jeremy
Manu Sporny: +1 to Jeremy ←
16:16:12 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, mute JeremyCarroll
Zakim, mute JeremyCarroll ←
16:16:12 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: JeremyCarroll should now be muted ←
16:16:23 <AndyS> AndyS supports cygri example (roughly)
Andy Seaborne: AndyS supports cygri example (roughly) ←
16:16:48 <sandro> cygri, http://www.google.com/trends?q=data%2C+love&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=1
Sandro Hawke: cygri, http://www.google.com/trends?q=data%2C+love&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=1 ←
16:17:14 <mischat> I thought we are supposed to be standardising common practices ....
Mischa Tuffield: I thought we are supposed to be standardising common practices .... ←
16:17:17 <PatHayes> The other frightening thing about RDF is, if one probes the 'buzz' for insight, one finds a lot of worry and confusion and debate and so on, rather than a bunch of nice easy tutorials.
Patrick Hayes: The other frightening thing about RDF is, if one probes the 'buzz' for insight, one finds a lot of worry and confusion and debate and so on, rather than a bunch of nice easy tutorials. ←
16:17:38 <sandro> indeed, PatHayes, it's not a pretty picture.
Sandro Hawke: indeed, PatHayes, it's not a pretty picture. ←
16:17:44 <AndyS> We did not finish JSON UCs
Andy Seaborne: We did not finish JSON UCs ←
16:17:56 <PatHayes> So maybe we should make it our business to paint some better pictures :-)
Patrick Hayes: So maybe we should make it our business to paint some better pictures :-) ←
16:17:59 <zwu2> bye
16:17:59 <Zakim> -cygri
Zakim IRC Bot: -cygri ←
16:18:00 <Zakim> -Souri_
Zakim IRC Bot: -Souri_ ←
16:18:00 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres
Zakim IRC Bot: -AxelPolleres ←
16:18:01 <Zakim> -ww
Zakim IRC Bot: -ww ←
16:18:01 <Zakim> -tomayac_
Zakim IRC Bot: -tomayac_ ←
16:18:02 <Zakim> -manu1
Zakim IRC Bot: -manu1 ←
16:18:02 <Zakim> -Tony
Scribe problem: the name 'Tony' does not match any of the 41 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alex Hall Andy Seaborne Antoine Zimmermann Axel Polleres Christopher Matheus Dan Brickley David Wood Dickson Lukose Dieter Fensel Eric Prud'hommeaux Fabien Gandon Gavin Carothers Guus Schreiber Ivan Herman Jean-François Baget Jeremy Carroll Kiu Ching Chieh Lee Feigenbaum Manu Sporny Matteo Brunati Michael Hausenblas Mischa Tuffield Mohamed ZERGAOUI Nathan Rixham Nicholas Humfrey Olivier Corby Patrick Hayes Peter Patel-Schneider Pierre-Antoine Champin Richard Cyganiak Sandro Hawke Scott Bauer Souripriya Das Steve Harris Thomas Steiner William Waites Yves Raimond Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Zakim IRC Bot: -Tony ←
16:18:03 <ivan> zakim, drop me
Ivan Herman: zakim, drop me ←
16:18:04 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected
Zakim IRC Bot: Ivan is being disconnected ←
16:18:06 <Zakim> -mischat_
Zakim IRC Bot: -mischat_ ←
16:18:08 <Zakim> -Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan ←
16:18:10 <Zakim> -OlivierCorby
Zakim IRC Bot: -OlivierCorby ←
16:18:12 <Zakim> -zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: -zwu2 ←
16:18:14 <Zakim> -Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro ←
16:18:16 <Zakim> -AlexHall
Zakim IRC Bot: -AlexHall ←
16:18:18 <Zakim> -webr3
Zakim IRC Bot: -webr3 ←
16:18:19 <Zakim> -David
Zakim IRC Bot: -David ←
16:18:22 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider
Zakim IRC Bot: -Peter_Patel-Schneider ←
16:18:22 <JeremyCarroll> yes
yes ←
16:18:22 <JeremyCarroll> Zakim, unmute JeremyCarroll
Zakim, unmute JeremyCarroll ←
16:18:24 <Zakim> -PatH
Zakim IRC Bot: -PatH ←
16:18:26 <Zakim> -AZ
Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ ←
16:18:28 <Zakim> -AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS ←
16:18:30 <Zakim> JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted ←
16:18:34 <sandro> Zakim, list attendees
Sandro Hawke: Zakim, list attendees ←
16:18:36 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Tony, David, Sandro, LeeF, OlivierCorby, +1.415.369.aabb, JeremyCarroll, AndyS, manu1, mischat_, tomayac_, PatH, Ivan, JFB, zwu2,
Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been Tony, David, Sandro, LeeF, OlivierCorby, +1.415.369.aabb, JeremyCarroll, AndyS, manu1, mischat_, tomayac_, PatH, Ivan, JFB, zwu2, ←
16:18:39 <Zakim> ... FabGandon, +1.603.897.aaee, cygri, Peter_Patel-Schneider, AlexHall, webr3, Souri_, ww, AZ, AxelPolleres
Zakim IRC Bot: ... FabGandon, +1.603.897.aaee, cygri, Peter_Patel-Schneider, AlexHall, webr3, Souri_, ww, AZ, AxelPolleres ←
16:18:43 <Zakim> -JeremyCarroll
Zakim IRC Bot: -JeremyCarroll ←
16:18:51 <Zakim> -FabGandon
Zakim IRC Bot: -FabGandon ←
16:19:41 <Zakim> -JFB
Zakim IRC Bot: -JFB ←
16:19:46 <JeremyCarroll> Gavin will scribe next week
Gavin will scribe next week ←
16:19:46 <JeremyCarroll> meeting adjourned
meeting adjourned ←
16:19:58 <davidwood> Thanks, Jeremy!
David Wood: Thanks, Jeremy! ←
16:20:05 <JeremyCarroll> rssagent, draft minutes
rssagent, draft minutes ←
16:20:30 <JeremyCarroll> rrsagent, draft minutes
rrsagent, draft minutes ←
16:20:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/23-rdf-wg-minutes.html JeremyCarroll
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/23-rdf-wg-minutes.html JeremyCarroll ←
Formatted by CommonScribe